User talk:FourTildes/Archive 1

I have decided to copy all the discussion from my old User name User:Malnova here for easier reference.

Anglo Dane
That image was uploaded by not by me. I just reformatted it. It was deleted because the user put no copyright status tag on it. Sorry, I know nothing of it! --SFoskett 13:24, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I copied the caption that had been uploaded with the image onto the Anglo Dane page. The person that uploaded the image was the one that wrote it. I have added a few more bits to the article but my reference books have no more to add. Malcolma 16:51, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thanks for your edits to Onsen. If you're interested about the controversy, you should also check out Sento. I added this link to your text in Onsen. Best wishes and happy editing -- Chris 73 | Talk 03:13, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

EU in List of countries and territories by area
I think it should be included but not ranked, as it is included in List of territories by population. You moved the page to List of countries and territories by area, and anyway EU is at least a territory and might even be considered a kind of state as it is a supranational entity in wich the adhering states are democratically involved. I think the issue should be discussed before anyone consider again it's exclusion from the list. I havn't added it yet because i can't find an official measure of the area of the EU 25. But I'm looking for it and I'll find it. --giandrea 02:27, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your answer, anyway, next time use my talk page, not my main page; that's where the messages are supposed to be, there is a little + on the top of the page to add a comment. This time I moved your comment manually. Anyway back on topic. Wikipedia works by consensus, you should have consensus before you make drastical changes on a page, or when you see there is a revert war. To gain consensus you have to discuss the topic on the talk page of the article with other users and see if you can reach an agreement. For example, on the page List of territories by population we reached a consensus in changing the name of the page from List of countries by population to List of territories by population, and then we added the European Union, not ranked because the singular states of the union are ranked. There is a consensus on Wikipedia that the EU is not a country, but it is a supranational entity, with a democratically elected parliament and a law system, and so it should be included for the sake of information in this kind of articles. --giandrea 12:41, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * ehm... the fact that no one answered my question doesn't mean that they don't agree, as it doesn't mean that they agree, it doesn't mean anything at all... so, you say that several people before you edited out the EU from the list, but that means that several people re-entered it in the list before... it seems to me like a revert war, and the last revert end re-revert from some minutes ago seems to add to my ipothesis. I will see what we can do. --giandrea 13:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Please, consider reading the Consensus article on Wikipedia. Also consider the fact that I have added the Eu to the list once, then someone else removed it and I never added it again. Now I'm trying to set a Consensus because there is a revert war on the article. --giandrea 13:22, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see your point and obviously you don't see mine, so we should set a consensus, an agreement, involving other people as well, for now I won't edit the post anymore, as I already told you, but I still think that the EU should be included. Also I never wanted to represent all the European citizens, I just wanted to state that the concept of European citizenship is written in a signed agreement by all the EU countries (Maastricht), and that the inclusion of the EU in that list would not hurt anyone and would be apreciated by many for it's statistical value. The same is valid here. --giandrea 13:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Mediation
Hi, I'm your friendly cabal mediator! :) User:Giandrea has applied for mediation with the mediation cabal over the dispute you are having at List of countries by area. If you could express your point of view on the mediation page I would be much obliged. Many thanks, and lets hope we can get some consensus going :) - FrancisTyers 10:32, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Puerto Rico's area
Here is the reference, from the UN site, for Puerto Rico's area. I hope this helps. Anything else you need for verifiability send me another message. Take care. Joelito 01:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Here's another reference, also from the UN site. Joelito 01:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Re: Name change, other entities
 Which of my edits are you referring to? &mdash; Instantnood 16:50, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Silverwolf Comics notability
Hi, you need to provide proof of notability for the article to stay. If you believe it is notable then add tag to it and explain how it is notable and give evidence on the articles talk page.-- Andeh 10:01, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

List of countries by area
I placed a note about the issue in WP:RFC, specifically here. I also posted a note at List of countries (specifically here). It appears nobody cares enough about the issue one way or another. The only reason I switched to the full list is to match it to List of countries by population and List of countries by population density. I have no strong feelings either way as long as all three lists are harmonized. In any case, I'll make sure to get feedback next time. Regards. --Polaron | Talk 21:53, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Sumo tourney box
You're doing great with the boxes, but why do you have to blow them up so B-I-G? They are great as they are and the size sort of disrupts the whole "harmony" of the layout of the article. I suggest you keep them at 100% and not 125%. Kaiketsu 18:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Sumo records
Complete tournament records for every rikishi since 1989 is here:. Complete lists of yusho, sansho, kinboshi, etc. for post-WWII and earlier in some cases is here:. There's an awful lot of data on that site, including the makuuchi banzuke all the way back to the 18th century, so poke around. Also see and. I'm not sure that win-loss records for all tournaments are available on the web prior to 1989, but I'll keep looking. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Another good resource is sumoforum.net. The users there are very knowledgeable, and it would be great if some of them could be recruited to help out with sumo-related articles here. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Sumo WikiProject
Make sure to sign up for the Sumo Wikiproject. WikiProject Council/Proposals, number 1.116! XinJeisan 17:12, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Re: List of countries
I'd be happy to merge the /temp article and the actual article and reduce once there's demonstrable consensus for the change. Right now, I'm not sure there is. Cheers. --MZMcBride 01:15, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Tourney box
Please, if you have anything you'd like to suggest about it let me know and don't wait. I've been holding off on letting it go live until I heard something.

Of course you don't want to do work twice! But with me, it's a question of when I have the mental energy available to get a lot done at once. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I think there's been some confusion between a table or an infobox and a template. You designed a table, not a template. A table might be implemented with a template, and that's essentially what I did. The idea is to save editors the trouble of setting up the same table every time, so the same thing can be accomplished with less typing and less wiki-coding each time. A template allows for a uniform look across a project.


 * But they do have some limitations. Among them would be the ability to link only the first mention of a rank, etc. without the user asking for that particular instance to be linked. That's because there's no way to save state information between template calls: no equivalent of a variable as in a programming language. This is a problem because to make a table of indeterminate size using templates, you have to use multiple templates, as they do for the succession boxes for instance. So what you suggest can be done, but not elegantly, and not in such a way as to guarantee it will be done every time. You'd be dependent on the person who inserts the table to do the right thing, but that obviates the point of using a template in the first place. It was partly because of this that I added links to the ranks in the footer of the table. I could add one for Juryo, of course. It might be worth adding a row of links to all the divisions.


 * I did use 2 different shades of gray. The one blended with the border deliberately for basho where the rikishi was demoted out of makuuchi. It's intended to be a visual cue that the basho doesn't "count" for the purposes of the table. I used a shade of gray distinct from the border for basho where the rikishi is out kyujo.


 * Ozeki are sometimes numbered and sometimes not because there's no point in doing it unless there are at least 3, giving 2 ranks. You're right that it may be unclear, so I'll give some thought as to how to address it. If we're giving rank at all though, the number should be there as it's not insignificant. It makes a difference when torikumi is determined, I believe, and a kadoban ozeki is always the lowest ranked.


 * The size of the award icons is part of an effort to keep the table as compact as possible, but if they're too small for comfort I'll make them larger. The different look you're getting relative to your setup is because of the font selection. I'm using boldface. TCC (talk) (contribs) 09:56, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It's partly a deliberate constraint. There are several extensions available for MediaWiki that have not been installed here because the sysops don't want the templates to turn into a programming language. Linking the first instance of a word can be done with either variables or string functions, neither of which are currently installed and probably never will be. But it's pretty trivial to add a link for Juryo in the footer with the others.
 * I haven't given the sanyaku rank numbers any thought yet. One method used by one of the stats sites is to give the number regardless of how many hold the rank. Whatever I think of, I'll probably just try it out so everyone can see it. That's easier and clearer than describing it. I'm also wondering if the direction should come before the rank name or after. (e.g. "East Ozeki #1" rather than "Ozeki #1 East.)
 * NSK may not use the terms so often on their website, but many other places do. (for instance, this article: . It's translated, so you have Spring, Summer, Autumn instead of Haru, Natsu, Aki, but the others mentioned are the same. As a compromise I'm willing to swap the positions and font sizes of the month names and traditional names, so the month names are more prominent and primary. The November column may end up too wide then, but I'll do what I can to make it look right.
 * It's actually easier to add the links after the fact with a template because it only has to be done once instead of in every article. I really dislike the idea, but if everyone wants it I'll do it. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:08, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, I've already made some adjustments. Let me know what you think. User:Csernica/Sandbox/Sumo TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "Trivial" here means it's easy to add to the template, not that it's unimportant. Actually, once we start to add rikishi who have spent significant time in Juryo, like Kaiho or Takanowaka, I was thinking it might be worth including Juryo tournament records.
 * My Japanese is virtually nonexistent. I'm basing my opinion on the usage I see in various news reports and fansites. It's almost always "Aki", not "September".


 * Your table at Kakuryu was just fine. The only thing is that you don't want to put parentheses around the year and name. If you like, you can leave the name off by omitting the parameter in the first template.


 * This should be easier than coding up a table by hand, once we get used to it. I added the templated version to Asashoryu and Kaio since I already had them done and could just paste them in; and I had to test them somehow. But I agree there's no reason to rush back and redo all of the ones you already added. We can get to them whenever.


 * I left the year links in for the live version that's now in template space. Right now they link to the general year pages (e.g. 2006) but I'm thinking we may eventually add pages for the yearly basho results. Once enough of those are done, the year links could point to them instead, and that will give the reader a useful cross-reference.


 * I'm trying to come up with an appropriate graphic for some of the other templates. Adding project templates and user boxes to article talk and user pages is one way to raise the project's visibility and hopefully draw more people in. I'm thinking of the kanji for Sumo in the calligraphy they use for banzuke (I found a font for it, believe it or not). TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:06, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Save the page at Tochiozan with the box in place and I'll see what I can do to fix it. It might just be a conflict with the infobox, but that will be true of any table you try to squeeze in there. TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * In that case you'll see this later. The big problem is that the pipe before the first parameter was missing in the call to . Other than that it should work OK as you entered it, but it's easier to just leave all the pipes off for a basho you want to leave empty. No use counting a bunch of pipes you don't have to. It is a little squashed because of the infobox, but as I said there's no fixing that anyway unless you want to stick a bunch of blank lines on top. It will fix itself as the article grows. TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

No, not yet, but don't let that stop you from adding them. It's going to be the second parameter on Sumo record box start. Just include the reference itself; the template will add the tags. Template calls ignore unused parameters so it won't hurt anything to add it before I make the change, and then it will just show up in the rendered table after. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Re: Adding, Improving, Updating Wrestler articles
Thanks Malnova. And thanks for all your hard work on the tourney boxes; they greatly improve the articles. I'll certainly keep an eye on the articles you've listed and correct if necessary. I agree Csernica's boxes are snazzier but it would be a lot of work replacing yours, which look absolutely fine to me. I think we might be better off spending our time on creating new sumo articles or expanding existing ones! Pawnkingthree 16:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No worries; I enjoy putting them in. I will have a go at some tourney boxes too! I was thinking of starting with Mitoizumi but www.szumo.hu doesn't go back that far. Where do you get your pre-January 1989 information from? Pawnkingthree 11:20, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! It's no trouble; I'm a bit of a stickler for detail:) I'm glad you appreciate it because it could look like nit-picking I guess! Pawnkingthree 11:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Well spotted-- I'd missed Hochiyama out. I've now created a short article. Pawnkingthree 08:36, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I was surprised when I read that article-- I'd assumed it would be Takamisakari as he's obviously the senior rikishi at Azumazeki. But I seem to recall Mitoizumi was ahead of Konishiki as Takasago's successor (although ultimately he turned it down). I don't really know how these things work. Maybe, as you say, Taka just didn't want it. Pawnkingthree 23:09, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

You're right it wasn't 1982 :) I've noticed that a lot of yokozuna articles have been stubs for some time so I thought I'd go through and add infoboxes and a few more details where I can. It'll take a while though! Pawnkingthree 20:45, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I got Takamiyama's table from the book Jesse:Sumo Superstar, which I think I used elsewhere in the article as well. Great book that. Pawnkingthree 22:01, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing the Hakuho image-- I don't quite know what I did but when I added paragraph headings it disappeared... Pawnkingthree 20:55, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

That's fantastic! It's always been an ambition of mine to see a sumo match live and to meet a rikishi. I know the Sumo Association's planning to come to London in 2009 so maybe I'll get my chance then! Pawnkingthree 08:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

No I haven't started a tourney table for him, so feel free to finish yours off. I would love to make it to Japan one day-- I will definitely let you know! Pawnkingthree 22:19, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for repairing the link--I'm pretty confident we've got enough references now. Haven't seen the Asashoryu bout yet (will have to wait until it appears on the web) but who would have thought he would lose to Aminishiki twice in a row? Amazing really. Pawnkingthree 20:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh don't worry about spoilers-- I look for the results as soon as they're available! I believe every active rikishi with a page now has an infobox and tourney table-- I'm now going through the historical ones. I did Shunketsu, Jumonji and Tosanoumi the other day. I removed them from the "needs attention" bit but you're right, it's probably better to mention it in the "update" bit. Will do that from now on. Pawnkingthree 20:48, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually Takanoawaka and Buyuzan still need tourney tables, but neither will be making it back to makuuchi anytime soon so maybe not much of a rush on that one!Pawnkingthree 20:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Ooh thanks Malnova. My first award!:) Good idea with the "completed retired rikishi" bit. I've been working on a few articles recently which probably would meet that criteria (eg. Chiyonoyama, Tsurugamine, Kiyokuni, Kotozakura)-- if only they had tourney tables. But since the sad demise of hakkeyoi.net (which had complete tournament results for every sekitori since the 1950s) I'm finding it very difficult to get the data. I'll list them under "needs attention" and see if anyone can help out. Pawnkingthree 08:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Well would you believe it. I've just stumbled across sumodb.sumogames.com.... which is listed on the WP:SUMO page!! It seems to be just what I'm looking for. I've now added Ryuko's infobox and tourney table and put him on your list. More will now follow:) Pawnkingthree 10:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm determined that every active rikishi with makuuchi experience has their own article, even if it was only for five minutes! :) Seriously, I hope that that's not overkill. I also think the tourney tables really improve the articles so I've been adding as many as I can. Incidentally I noticed today that someone new has done some new heya articles, so I will point them towards WP Sumo and see if they get involved.

On your merger idea, my only concern would be that the meaning of sanyaku can be a bit vague-- some people think of it as yokozuna, ozeki, sekiwake, komusubi, others (like myself) O, S, K, and still others as just S and K! But maybe I'm worrying too much. It might be worth just merging it and as you say, just seeing how it looks. Pawnkingthree 15:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for adding that pic of Futabayama. It inspired me to expand the article a bit-- long overdue, I think, for such an important yokozuna. Pawnkingthree 23:04, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I must confess I don't know much about Wikipedia's policies on use of images, or how to upload images  to Wikipedia (must read up on both those things). But I agree there need to be more. It's not too bad for the current rikishi (the top ones anyway) but not so good for retired ones. Pawnkingthree 23:23, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for tidying up the list of active wrestlers. I hsdn't thought of mentioning it under individual wrestlers' articles-- that's a good idea. The article's a bit of a halfway house at the moment isn't it-- a bit like a banzuke but not quite. It does need looking at at some point. Pawnkingthree 08:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Cheers for doing all that legwork on the related articles. BTW I don't suppose you saw the Kotomitsuki-Hakuho bout did you? I know the result, just wondered what the match was like. Pawnkingthree 12:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that Malnova. It sounds like a very exciting match and I'm so pleased for Mitsuki. Now can can he end that dreadful losing run against Asashoryu tomorrow? I do hope I didn't give much away in what I said (although I suspect I probably did). Next time I won't assume you've seen the matches live! Pawnkingthree 15:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for explanation on toshiyori. It does seem clearer now. I might do a bit more research and add to the glossary when I find the time. Also it is listed as an article in need of attention on the project page so could be useful for that too. Pawnkingthree 11:27, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi there! Was wondering when you'd be back-- I noticed you popped in a few days ago to revert some vandalism (we've had a few problems with that sort of thing while you've been away, actually...) No worries about the updating; I'll put a message on the WikiProject page similar to last time and see who joins in. I don't mind doing the lion's share myself if it comes to that; it's not really much trouble. Cheers, Pawnkingthree 12:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Cheers Malnova. Wakakirin is an interesting guy-- one of those bright young hopes who's taken a while to make it to the top. I'll add what I can. Be good to have you around after the basho, and with ACSE and others here as well I think sumo's doing pretty well on Wikipedia at the moment. Pawnkingthree 20:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Ken Yuasa
Hi again. Using the default sort means that all categories below it will appear with the name in the same order, so there's no need to add the name to each individual category. Handy little time-saver. Cheers, Pawnkingthree 09:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Inaccuracies with Kane (musical instrument) article
Please revert your changes to this article, (both the renaming and pronounciation) as they are inaccurate. "Kane" is romanized strictly as "kane," which no accented "é." In fact, "é" does not exist in any romanization method. The pronunciation is strictly "kah-neh." (IPA: kɑːnɛ) The respective kana for the term is かね, while the respective kanji is 鐘.

Thank you for trying to improve upon the article, but please be sure to consult romanization charts more carefully. 74.242.102.122 09:28, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I've responded to your comment here. 74.242.102.209 19:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

All right. I would much prefer talking to someone who has bothered with making a User name. This would take you two minutes, you could keep it across IPs, and I would and others would know they are talking to the same, stable person and not a ghost. Anyway, yes, you do have a point. I changed the article because it was on I saw it in a list of other words spelled the same and it was the only one not pronounced as けいん or かいん. I took a liberty with the English spelling of 鐘, because I think the average English speaker with no knowledge of Japanese would think it was indeed pronounced as けいん. The use of the accented e to emphasize it's pronunciation is used in borrowed English words such a touché and it's usage has been seen in words such as Pokémon (as does it's wikipedia article) but admittedly it is not established usage for 鐘 (if there is such a thing) and not strict Japanese romanization. I would point out though that kah-neh is by no means correct in "passport Hepburn" romanization either, the h's would signify that you extend the vowels, which would make the word かあねい, which is also incorrect. There may be another romanization method I haven't heard of where extra h's don't signify lengthening the vowel, but I doubt it. Regardless, your point is made, and I will change back the article's name and then in the article list the word's IPA pronunciation, and maybe a mention that it has two syllables. Check it out and let me know what you think. Malnova 21:38, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sure you meant well with your edit, but bear in mind, Wikipedia has a standard for using romaji in articles. When in doubt, check here first. IPA is not a necessity, though it's encouraged when pronunciation needs to be stressed. (in this article's case, I don't think the pronunciation of the word even needs to be covered, but that's left entirely to the editors' discretion)


 * As for the status of my account, I have a few, although I only reserve their use for account-restricted features. It's a difficult issue to get into here, but rest assured I am quite active.


 * Thanks for your co-operation! 74.242.102.209 23:45, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Just noticed the new version. Looks much better. Good job. 74.242.102.209 23:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Merging all the Sumo Ranks into one article
I think it is a good idea not only to merge the sanyaku ranking, but all five ranks (Yokozuna, Ozeki, Sekiwake, Komusubi, Maegashira) into one article. That would be a more encylopedic article as opposed to the dictionary kind of articles they are now. What do you think? XinJeisan 23:38, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

sumo projects

 * I don't mind about the table. I can't remember why I chose Kotonishi, but I was probably thinking along those lines. And, it has already been replaced anyways!


 * We should start moving sumo conversations to the sumo talk page. that would get more people involved in these sort of conversations:) XinJeisan 07:26, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Sumo references
Hi Malnova, I removed the "unreferenced" tag, and converted the web address to a template-style citation. In the future, you should add citations using the " " markup, as well as the citation templates, which can be found at WP:CITET. Editors doing GA reviews are increasingly preferring all citations to be marked up with templates, and its easier to do it now, as they're added, then have to go back and convert dozens of them later on. If you have any questions about any of this, feel free to ask. Keep up the good work, and no rush on the citations! :) Bradford44 20:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

EU country
Ooops. --Tomtom9041 15:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Redirecting Chankonabe
I don't quite see why you did that -- a glossary treatment actually has less to say than a full article, chankonabe does seem to have a life outside the sumo stables, and Wikipedia is not paper. If you don't mind I'd like to restore the original article with a link from the glossary page, since it has a source or two on it. Haikupoet 17:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Tourney table ref
I wouldn't expect there to be a problem. There's nothing fancy being done there; it's just a table caption. But you said it looks OK on Safari -- when you tried it on IE were you on a Mac? The latest IE version available for the Mac is 4 years out of date. I'd expect many things to not work correctly, especially since Wikipedia relies heavily on CSS for its look and that's a standard that IE was particularly slow to support. So the CSS behind the look of the table might not be rendered correctly. I'm on a Linux box right now, but I'll check it out on a current version of IE later.

It turns out I'm not going to be able to put that style of reference into the table since you can't use ref tags inside template code and expect them to work correctly. So the way you're doing it is just fine. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:02, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, in the current IE it is well and truly fux0rd, as the kids say. I'll see what I can do about it. 10-1 it's a problem with IE's CSS support, but maybe just a bit of extra padding on the bottom of the caption will do it. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I see what you mean, but anything like that would be purely decorative, as a memory aid only, since each cell is otherwise identical: it would all be the same code. One way to accomplish this without a lot of duplication would be to add redirects in template space with the individual names you want, and point them all to Template:Basho. (In other words, the names of the redirect pages should all be Template:Something.) That's easy enough where you don't need someone who knows template coding to do it.

By the way, it would be much better to talk about things like this on the talk page for the template itself, especially as more people join the project. They're not my templates of course, and there's no reason why other people who know what they're doing can't edit them as they see fit. So we might want more people than are watching my user talk page to see discussions like this. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:16, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Yokozuna
No problem. Everyone has been doing a good job with all the sumo stuff in general. I think it is a really good idea to consolidate articles and have a few good ones as opposed to a bunch of stubs. I was also thinking we should start to consolidate yokozuna profiles. I don't think there will be much information about pre-meiji period yokozuna, and perhaps even pre WWII yokozuna. So, rather than each one having his own page, we could just make a new article called "yokozuna of the pre meiji period" or something like that. I don't think any of those yokozuna articles individually will ever be more than a few lines. what do you think? XinJeisan 22:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Of interest to you
This group WikiProject Integration might be of interest to you. Have fun. XinJeisan 17:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Kaio, Koto
I haven't been following sumo very long; only since just after the September basho of last year. I used to enjoy what little I could see of it, but that was a long time ago -- crtainly before any part of a basho was regularly featured on cable, and I haven't had cable now for almost 20 years. I followed it as best I could without really knowing where to get my hands on any materials, which basically meant I took notice whenever it happened to be in the news. Back in September I stumbled on the online sumo fan community, and its been very informative. There were many good reasons to get broadband at home, but for me the "killer app" was being able to watch sumo. The rotten bastards block streaming connections at work.

So no, I don't remember Kaio's last yusho, unfortunately.

I found some clips on YouTube of Kotooshu during his ozeki run -- one of those NHK compilations -- and he appeared to be someone worth watching based on that performance, so when I saw him afterward it was a disappointment. I don't think you're being over-imaginative. To me he looks like he beats himself against some opponents, and he always looks nervous or uncertain before a bout. He really ought to find some way to psych himself up. He doesn't have to go as far as Takamisakari, (who does, really?) but I don't think he even does the mental preparation even normal rikishi use. I say that just because he seems very low-key during shikiri when I'd think he should be working himself up. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:18, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikibreak
I am just spending far too much time on wikipedia for my own good, especially in the past few weeks. Cold turkey is the best way to go. I enjoyed working on the sumo articles and I am glad that the project is going well. Maybe in the future I will come back, but, it is better to go cold turkey in these situations, I feel. Thanks again for the kind words and keep up the good work. You have done far more than I.

Now that I am taking a wikibreak, can I openly root for Kotomitsuki to take the yusho on wikipedia?!? kotomitsuki gambare!!!, XinJeisan 07:03, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

It is too bad I wasn't still living in the Tokyo area, we could get a group of sumo wikipedians to go to the basho. maybe you should try, in any case.

I thought about joining the union a few times, but couldn't afford it to be honest. However, when they got the government to investigate NOVA's pension and insurance policy towards foreign teachers, and the governments response was, well, that's too bard, i pretty much lost faith that the union could change anything. I can't imagine why all these foreigners who are barely known with the foreign community, let alone within Japan have pages at the same level as Yujiro, though.

trying to leave wikipedia ...XinJeisan 07:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

feel free to use this as the official project awardXinJeisan 09:32, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Fighting good fights
Hey Malnova. I read your quote on XinJeisan's page: "On the job front: I have similar experiences and conclusions about the future of fair employment for foreign workers in Japan; though part of me knows I should fight the good fight." I just want to say that you remind me of a guy I know and I couldn't agree with you more. I just want to add: "you gotta fight... for your right..."DDD DDD 13:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of Shimōotori Norio
Hi there, I noticed you tagged Shimōotori Norio for speedy deletion. I just want to point out, for future reference, all you need to do to nominate a page for speedy deletion is type. I'm not sure if you used subst: with this template or just copy-and-pasted the template's code, but you actually made a copy of the template (plus your reason) instead of transcluding it. So the page you wanted deleted was listed under Category:Speedy deletion templates instead of Category: Candidates for speedy deletion. It's not a problem, since it's easily fix, it's just if it's in the wrong category, it could go overlooked for a while and not get deleted. -Rocket000 03:13, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Re: Wikipedia is not a source
I find your edit of Tamarikido's article rather pointless. Other wikipedias can't be used as a source, but the information gleaned from there, unsourced, is okay? Is it not just as egregious not to have any source for information for an article on wikipedia? Message I receive: Getting information from other places (including your own noggin) without sourcing: technically wrong, but we'll let it slide. Being honest about where you got your info: nope, not if it's not sanctioned. Next time I just won't source. You could have least put a source tag on the article, but maybe you were busy. Malnova 03:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, one of two things is the case: either the Japanese article has a reliable source for the item, in which case we could cite the article but we might as well cite the reliable source directly, or else it doesn't, in which case we shouldn't cite it at all because it might be wrong (as indeed might our version). Since I can't read Japanese and so don't know which of these is the case, I'll leave it to someone who does to clear things up. Thanks – Gurch 03:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Sumo beya
Hey, like the new username! Just looked at the List of sumo beya --good work. As you say, it should make the heya articles more visible which can only be a good thing. I was thinking of adding a list by ichimon to the heya article, but now that we have this list I think it probably would be a good idea to include the info from heya and just redirect. I might tidy up some of the individual heya article names, as some have been created with a capital S for stable which is somewhat confusing. Oh and good work on banzuke too-- that was something that really needed doing.

Happy to do the makuuchi updates tomorrow if you're happy doing juryo. Cheers, Pawnkingthree (talk) 09:31, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm happy with "stable" personally, although I remember there were some objections on the Project page a while back. Anyway, let's stick with that for now. Thinking about it again, it might be worth keeping heya for now: although it is skimpy at the moment it could be expanded. I might have a go at doing that today actually. Pawnkingthree (talk) 10:05, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I've added some new sections to the beya list-- closures, mergers etc. Useful or not? Let me know what you think if you have time. Cheers, Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:05, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Updates
Perhaps you could take care of the lower maegashira too; say ranks 9-16 or something? That would be a big help. Strange end to the basho wasn't it. I'm pleased for Kaio but what a disappointment for Chiyotaikai to have to withdraw like that. Pawnkingthree (talk) 10:43, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, no problem, I can do the Makuuchi maegashira you suggested. I had also not noticed how many juryo guys without articles had snuck in, which also makes Juryo a much shorter job. I actually didn't even watch the last day, except for Hakuho's loss and championship on the news. I figured it was a done deal and went to the park with my son instead. I will have to read up on Chiyo in the paper tomorrow. FourTildes (talk) 10:47, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Personally I find Rank useful, and I think people would naturally look for it in the infobox. It's the sort of thing you would expect to find there. I agree that Current Rank is a better name though. For new wrestlers, now that we have all rikishi with makuuchi experience, I agree with you and I'm now only creating new articles once they reach the top division. Much as I enjoy doing new bios, there's not very much you can say about someone like Yoshiazuma - one basho at Juryo 14. Best to wait until they hit the makuuchi big time. Pawnkingthree (talk) 10:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi there. I've already leapt in and done the sanyaku wrestlers, (and I did Baruto too just because I heard it was his first ever non injury-related makekoshi, which I thought was interesting) so I don't know if you want to work your way through the maegashira and I could do juryo? Or I could do some maegashira too if that's too many. I hope you enjoyed your day at the Kokugigan! Sounds like you picked a good day. It would be great if you could put some pics up on the Commons as they do make the articles look so much better. I don't know how easy it is to do though as I've never done it myself. Pawnkingthree (talk) 09:24, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I had some time today so I've done all of makuuchi; if you like you could do the ex makuuchi guys. Thanks, Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:23, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry, I think they're all covered. I did them a bit at a time. Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:29, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes, real work. I need to do some more of that!:) Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

So Asa's out then? He did have that ankle problem which meant he hardly did any training, so not a great surprise I guess. Did you see his bout with Tochinonada? Looked to me like they fell together and Tochi's elbow touched first. I really don't get the Shini-tai thing: I think Asa was unlucky there. Pawnkingthree (talk) 09:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure it's a bit of both; he wasn't feeling great but didn't want to risk losing any more. I wonder if Hakuho will just stroll to victory now, or if Kotomisuki, Kotoshu or maybe Ama can stop him. Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Templates
Thanks for letting me know about that. I'll see if I can get to it soon. I'm actually on wikibreak, which was well underway before I noticed it was happening and so didn't tag my userpage. I only saw your note because I happened to be looking something up.

Some are suspecting shenanigans in Kyushu, with Chiyotaikai's kyujo being timed just a but too conveniently and Hakuho giving perhaps less than full effort against Kotomitsuki on senshuraku, by way of allowing Kaio to skate to a KK. Did you get that impression, or are they being paranoid? (Personally, I think if Haku/Mickey was arranged then they did a much better job of it than you'd normally see. I think Hakuho just got lazy with the yusho already sewn up and no chance of zensho; and Chiyo was just being very cautious about his elbow.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:15, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That's plausible -- if Chiyo's elbow was really usable. On the other hand, Kaio is known for working elbows too -- I think he injured Asashoryu's at least once -- and if you can find the video have a look at the Chiyo/Haku bout. Hakuho really worked him over. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

New list
Heh, that's true but I didn't want to make a long rambling list! I just picked a handful that I was particularly pleased with. I think a list of past sumo wrestlers compliments the active list well and it's a good idea. Anything that improves the visiblity of the articles is a good thing I reckon. Perhaps we could divide by rank or era? If it's just a list of names someone might come along and try to delete it by saying it could just be a category. Just a thought. Cheers, Pawnkingthree (talk) 09:30, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Cool. I'll have a look at the beya list while you're doing that. Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I think if a rikishi's got an article, it's worth listing them there. I might have grouped them according to the decade they reached their highest rank-- I think of Taiho as being from the 60s and Akebono from the 90s, for example-- but that's just a quibble. Pawnkingthree 15:39, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

It would look better in table form. I'm not really familiar with the process of doing that so might leave that to you. It's fine on the backburner, Wikipedia has no deadline after all... Cheers, Pawnkingthree 12:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I hope you had a peaceful Christmas and New Year and are looking forward to the new basho. I can't wait to see how Asashoryu does tomorrow. Take care, Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking of leaving updating ranks until after the basho when we update the scores--I don't think it would really hurt-- but I had a bit of spare time so I thought I'd do it. Maybe we could split it up between us next time though if you don't mind. Pawnkingthree (talk) 10:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, as the new banzuke is out tomorrow I just wondered if you'd be interested in sharing updates over the next few days. Cheers, Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:31, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! How about if you handle the sanyaku and top magashira, and I'll do the bottom half of the maegashira, juryo and the odd makushita that we've got dotted around. Cheers, Pawnkingthree (talk) 09:13, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Article criteria
Sounds fine to me; I don't have a problem with waiting three basho. Ironically the Towanoyama article is one of the better bios we've got, because I was able to find some background info on the Sumo Mailing List. But as for guys like Daimanazuru and Ryuho... there's just very little to say about them (I don't know if their Japanese articles are any better). I have a feeling Sakaizawa will stick around and he'll have an article before too long, but no harm in waiting! Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:17, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Well looks like we were right to hold off-- after that awful injury against Kakizoe, Sakaizawa will be back down in juryo... by the way I'm on holiday for two weeks from 19th March so won't be around for updates until 2nd April. Cheers, Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:47, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Lots of comings and goings with today's new banzuke I see. We have three makuuchi debutants without articles: Kotokasuga (veteran, one basho wonder I reckon), Hakuba (yet another Mongolian) and Tochinoshin (promising young Georgian). Ive updated List of active sumo wrestlers but I'm sticking to our three makuuchi basho rule so I'll hold off creating articles for now. I reckon Tochinoshin at least could be worth it though. Just one small point, could you tell me which is right, Kotokasuga Keigo or Kotokasuga Keigō? Regards, Pawnkingthree (talk) 08:39, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

List of sumo tournament winners
Nice work on List of sumo tournament winners. I've often thought it could do with expanding. Myself, I've been rating articles and seeing if it might be worth trying get one or two to Good article status. There's always Sumo of course, but I think some of the biographies are not too far off either. Be nice to have some recognition! Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Futabayama pre-1958 basho
I like it-- thanks for doing that. If you're sure it wouldn't take you too long it would be great if you could use it in some of the early yokozuna articles. I'm thinking of examples like Tochigiyama and Hitachiyama which have a decent amount of text and therefore are close to complete, and of course Umegatani Tōtarō I which was the one first raised by Zeyes. I have to say though I don't think it would be necessary to change 1950s yokozuna like Wakanohana Kanji I or Tochinishiki, as I don't think those tables are misleading. They're not far away from the 1958 system and the note says when the missing tournaments began, so seems clear enough. Pawnkingthree (talk) 10:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe prizes were introduced until the 1940s (end of '47 according to Sumo Reference) so yes they should probably be removed from the bottom of the table. Thanks again. Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:41, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes that looks really good-- perfectly readable. Yokozuna wasn't listed as a rank on the banzuke until 1890, so the tournament record listing of ozeki for Umegatani is correct. We should maybe add an explanation of that for the pre-1890 Yokozuna. Yet more tweaking needed! Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Kotooshu
That was a great match wasn't it-- I saw it on Youtube. Kotooshu seems like a new man. As you say, it's all down to confidence. Lets see how he does against Hakuho tomorrow though! There have been some great bouts this basho actually-- Ama's incredible utchari on Wakanho for one. Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:59, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I see ACSE has already removed the sentence "as an ozeki he has never been in serious contention for a tournament championship" from his article! Not true anymore:) I honestly never thought of him as yokozuna material but now, who knows? I don't want to give anything away in case you haven't today's results yet but what a climax we're going to have. Incredibly exciting. Pawnkingthree (talk) 10:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

It is a great story isn't it-- from kadoban to (maybe) yusho winner. I'll be interested to see what activity there is on his article once the tournament ends; it might encourage some lurkers to come and edit. It's not one I've worked on much actually, it was pretty much written before I got here. But I might be inspired to flesh it out a bit more.Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Great that you were there to see the first ever European yusho winner. Just saw it on Youtube and the atmosphere must have been electric. He really crushed Ama didn't he. A great, decisive win. "Kotooshu hatsu yusho!" I've picked up enough Japanese to know what that means! That must have been his father that they kept cutting to in the crowd. He must be so proud.

I've put my name down on the project page of course, but with Csernica and XinJeisan not around anymore, I'm not sure we'll have any more volunteers. But it's worth a try!Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

There is an exhibition tournament planned for London next year I believe-- maybe I could send you some memorabilia from that! And yes I imagine ACSE will be willing to help out too, although I'm not sure he watches the Project page. Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:52, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

May update
I've just done mine too. Funnily enough I didn't even think of using those WP:SUMO lists, I went by List of active sumo wrestlers instead. Anyway, between the three of us I think everything's updated now. I've just done Kotooshu's infobox. I think it's only fair that you were the one to record his yusho seeing as how you were actually there to witness it! Just about to watch today's bouts now. Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:24, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Records article
Yes I've seen that: looks great. Much better than just a list of names. I don't know if you saw on the project page someone suggested doing a List of sumo records or something like that. I think that's a good idea. we could have most tournament wins, most bouts, most tournaments in makuuchi, most kinboshi etc. I love those kind of stats. I might have a go as I've never done a list-type article before.Pawnkingthree (talk) 08:56, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah these kind of lists are probably more up your street than mine actually! I could probably do with a bit of help on such an article. As for Asashoryu, I see an anonymous editor has already added the controversy to his article, which I've just tidied up a bit. We'll have to see what the reaction will be. I don't think the Sumo Association will be too pleased with either of them. When I saw it it did leave a bad taste in my mouth. Like you say, that kind of behaviour is more suited to pro wrestling. One of the things I love about sumo is that 99% of the time they don't act like that. So when you see two Yokozuna doing it... Oh well. Pawnkingthree (talk) 10:07, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh yes I'm sure I'll get the help. There may not really be a WikiProject Sumo anymore but the three of us are working together pretty well to improve sumo on Wikipedia which is a good thing. Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:22, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I've made a start, initially in my own user space. But you're free to chip in of course! Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Heh, don't worry there's still a couple of your tables out there: I haven't got round to Takanonami or Musoyama yet :) The test article is at User:Pawnkingthree/List of sumo records. Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your input; I've put in some explanatory detail. I think it's in a good enough shape to move into mainspace now. Do you think List of sumo records is an OK name, or is there a better one?Pawnkingthree (talk) 08:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

It needed to be done, thanks for your efforts. I get the same urge to just get things done as well sometimes so I quite understand!Pawnkingthree (talk) 09:03, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Gah! You're right, I think that's better. Shouldn't have been so impatient to move it over. Oh well, I'll make it a redirect for now. Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:02, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

No, longest at ozeki would be a good one-- i'll put that in. I'm wondering how much more to add though; I could go on forever. Do you ever read the "banzuke" topics" that the JSA put up each basho on their website? They have all kinds of obscure records in there.

Sumopedia was actually set up by Csernica after someone suggested it in a thread on the Sumo Forum. WikiProject Sumo was mentioned, dismissively: "oh, there's only a handful of them and they just spend all their time updating scores" was the gist of it, and people were mentioning all the great things they were going to do on Sumopedia. Anyway, it seems to have died a death. They imported all the sumo related articles from here and nothing much happened after that. I think the only person who's made any edits there in the last few months is... me! Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes I thought those pictures looked great. There are still loads missing though of course. One rikishi who really needs one is Kisenosato: I think he's the only current sanyaku regular without an image.Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Various sumo discussions!
Yeah, go Kaio! only needs 7 more wins to overtake Taiho in the "most top division wins" table as well. I get annoyed when people criticise him and say he should retire-- for me, he's earned the right to stay on for as long as he wants, and why not, when he's so close to breaking all these records?

Past wrestlers: The only ones I can think of who aren't on the list are pro wrestlers who started off in sumo. Rikidozan and Tenryu are perhaps the most notable but there are a few other around like Takanofuji, Rikio and Onoumi who all made makuuchi.

Actually there's also Takamishu who was the top guy at Azumazeki before Akebono came along, heroic Englishman Hidenokuni, and Emmanuel Yarborough, (though he was only an amateur of course).

Heya: The ichimon idea could be something worth doing, as they naturally group together and some of the current stable articles are very short (although we said that about the historical yokozuna and they're much improved now). Takanohana stable and Tatsunami stable for example have a fair bit of info so maybe some could remain as separate articles with a summary in the new ichimon article. I know you're good at merging stuff so maybe you could take a look and see if it's feasible. We could maybe mention the five ichimon in the Heya article and then have articles on each leading out from that. --Pawnkingthree (talk) 10:52, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Images
Hey, thanks for adding that Kisenosato image just now. I don't know if you've noticed this but it's apparently at risk of being deleted already because it has to have a GFDL license:, ie 'I allow anyone to copy and redistribute this image, blah blah.' You just need to add under the 'licensing' section on the image page. --Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:45, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for all the others too! It's amazing how an image improves an article so dramatically. And it makes a nice change to see the wrestlers in their outdoor wear as nearly all the other images we have are of them on the dohyo. Glad you got Dejima sorted out: I know it can be a very fiddly process. I've only ever uploaded one image (a fair use image to a chess article) and that took me a while.Pawnkingthree (talk) 08:59, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

You really did have quite a few pictures stashed away didn't you?:)We must be getting towards half of makuuchi with an image now, which is great. I've had a look at the Kokkai image, and I'm pretty sure it's him. Wouldn't worry about the hairstyle, I don't think sekitori have to have it splayed out except on formal occasions and in the arena itself. User:Morio's image should probably stay in the infobox but we could add it in the main text somewhere; several other rikishi have more than one image. Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:39, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It is a little blurry but I've just reduced the size of the image a bit which may help. I say keep it until somebody objects (which I don't think is very likely!). Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:51, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

If I could give you a barnstar, I would (don't think I can because you gave me one). I've made a note on the project page of the main makuuchi guys still without images (just for info, not expecting you to go instantly go out and take snaps of them all!) but we've come a very long way now. Thanks again. Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Image:Kisenosato.JPG
The image was initially uploaded with a non-gfdl license - you indicated that only non-commercial or educational use of the file is allowed. While it might seem reasonable to assume that such files can be freely used on Wikipedia, a non-profit website, this is in fact not the case. It appears that you've got the correct license on the image now ;) SkierRMH  ( talk ) 17:42, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Redirect etc
List of sumo record holders is a better title, but it probably should have been done using the "move" button rather than cutting and pasting. It doesn't really bother me but someone might complain because it does remove the edit history from the article. Don't worry about it though; I don't suppose anyone else will notice.

I saw your Hakkaku experiment; looks pretty good to me. I'd probably add in an extra section to distinguish coaches working at the stable from former wrestlers because sometimes they aren't the same (although they often are of course). It is a big task but it could be really worthwhile. Maybe we could start with the Takasago ichimon first as they are quite a bit smaller than the other ones.

Oh and I'm pleased about Itai because I unlike last time I was actually around to see it on the front page!Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:58, 6 June 2008 (UTC)