User talk:Fowler&fowler/Archive 16

Blocked
You have been blocked for sloth.
 * Per consensus at User_talk:Drmies. Your user page tells me that you are on a "wikibreak" since you are "traveling"--well, that is just unacceptable. First of all, "we were on a break" was soundly rejected as an argument, and it certainly doesn't mean you can go fuck the girl at the copy shop. Second, a netbook and some wireless access wouldn't set you back too much, and we demand (per ArbCom ruling 25.672a) 24/7 attention. I hope this is clear: our coverage of India is going to hell in a handbasket; Sitush needs a nap. So enjoy your "break"--if it doesn't end soon, you might find it lengthened. Drmies (talk) 15:32, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
 * As Gandhi before me had said in his famous ArbCom appearance, "I am, therefore, here to submit not to a light penalty but to the highest penalty. The only course open to you, Mr. Judge, is, as I am just going to say in my statement, either to resign your post or inflict on me the severest penalty."  (Or, if you so wish, you could do both.)  I hope the block will be of such length as would allow me to pass directly from 2011 to 2013.  Please create a little black hole in space time and stuff my 2012 into it.    Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  16:41, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I'm an admin and thus cannot afford my clients such niceties. Hey, 2012 is only halfway through and if it's really bad perhaps it can only get better. Even Ross clawed hisself out of the hole of the copy shop girl. Take it easy, Drmies (talk) 17:21, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I sometimes feel that WP is a black hole in space/time. Then I see some banter involving friends and think, hey, if I am going to get sucked into some inescapable vortex & mashed into something infinitesimally small then at least I have some worthy company on the journey. Take care, F&f. I shall fettle Janjua in due course and then refer my prose etc to your tender ministrations, although that fancy optical reader gadget that you had might be called upon for the first part, - — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sitush (talk • contribs) 01:58, 28 June 2012‎
 * :) Thank you, Drmies and Sitush, for your humor and your kind words. Well, I'll be back home soon.  Yay!    Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  04:41, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

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EIC for comment
F&f, I'm traveling with lousy internet connectivity. Could you take a look at an editor concern expressed here? Stalkers welcome. --regentspark (comment) 21:08, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  23:19, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Mumbai
Hi! Since my start here, I have got 4 GAs of late but I'm not so good at copyediting. This article is a Former FA and current GA. I was starting my work to improve it and I need your assistance. Since, you are pretty good at it, can you please help me improve the article for FAN.  — TheSpecialUser  ( TSU ) 06:53, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi
I appreciate your good work. But are you a Pakistani ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.172.44.192 (talk) 15:48, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes indeed. How did you guess?  Here are some details of my family history, I come from a long line of navigators.  The original Fowler and fowler were the pilots who steered the Indian tectonic place from Gondwana to Asia.  However, soon after my ancestors spotted the shoreline of Tibet, they also saw some wise ass IPs from Karnataka pussyfooting on it.  Disgusted, they choose, at the last minute, to disembark in northern Pakistan.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  19:17, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Appreciate the warning
As well, would you be able to tell me if you consider Royal Ark a reputable source? Also, I would like to include some mention of Karan Singh's family in the article, as there is no mention of it. Aumnamahashiva (talk) 19:09, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Royal ark is irredeemably unreliable. I'm afraid no more family history is warranted than what is already there, especially not long lineages.  This is an encyclopedia, not a private web page.  I will check Britannica for its entries (if any) for Karan Singh and Hari Singh.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  19:15, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Just checked Encyclopaedia Britannica. It has no entry for Karan Singh.  Hari Singh doesn't have a page either, but is mentioned in the Kashmir page (in the section "The Kashmir Problem").  So, you see, encyclopedias generally don't provide family details.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  19:29, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks very much; I shall not rely upon it from now on. Aumnamahashiva (talk) 19:52, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit warring
Your recent editing history at India shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing&mdash;especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring&mdash;even if you don't violate the three-revert rule&mdash;should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. The support of one editor does not constitute consensus. There are others who felt that the edit needed to be discussed first. There are others who even reverted you. Ubiquinoid (talk) 17:39, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That's what I am saying: the support of one editor does not constitute consensus. No one reverted me, by the way, but someone just copied my post on their page and pasted it (with changed signature) on mine.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  17:43, 16 July 2012 (UTC) Updated.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  17:44, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It takes more than one party to edit war. Pot, kettle.  And note that at least 2 editors have reverted you. Ubiquinoid (talk) 17:47, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you name the other who reverted my revert of you? Orangewhitegreen has other issues.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  17:50, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Myself and owg - his issues (whatever they are) do not justify you believing that his isn't a legitimate revert, just as much as NeilN's may or may not have been. Ubiquinoid (talk) 17:55, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I wasn't talking of NeilN, but rather of this edit by an old Wikipedia admin.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  17:59, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Noted. Admins are not immune to ... issues, and sometimes seem to glaze over the very policies they preach.  Note that that admin did not involve themselves afterward.  Ubiquinoid (talk) 18:07, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Besides, admin Drmies left an edit warring message on your talk page. He also in this post on the talk:India page stated that you were editing against consensus.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  18:11, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Admins are editors with powers, and issues. They saw fit to comment at length about personality and not about substance, while ignoring the tenets of consensus (which had to be pointed out), and which you seem to not have a complete grasp of ... hence this drawn-out, tiresome discourse. Ubiquinoid (talk) 18:20, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I provided the wrong link. For what its worth, Admin Drmies left this 3RR warning on your talk page, which you quickly blanked in this edit with edit summary, "removing notice from challenged admin." That means at least two admins have challenged your edits. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  18:27, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Acknowledged. I defer to prior comments. Ubiquinoid (talk) 18:29, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Request for maps
Hi F&F, how are you? Can you please direct me to two political maps of the subcontinent, one prior to the independence, and one immediately after? Those will be incorporated in the history section of the article Independence Day (India). Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 22:02, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Dwaipayan, Always nice to hear from one of the old guard (among which I count myself as well). I had actually uploaded two such maps some five years ago.  They were taken from my copy of Raychaudhuri, Datta, and Majumdar's Advanced History of India, published 1960, but the maps were copyrighted some time from the early 50s (perhaps 1951 or 52).  One was a map of British Indian Empire on the eve of independence and the other that of the partitioned successor states.  Unfortunately, I just realized that both maps have been deleted.  I've been away a lot from Wikipedia and it likely happened during one such absence.  The book was published by Macmillan and Co in London and the maps were copyrighted to J. G. Bartholomew and Sons, the famous Edinburgh cartographers.  I'm guessing the Indian copyright laws that I had cited didn't apply to the maps.  For the pre-independence pictures, you could use File:British Indian Empire 1909 Imperial Gazetteer of India.jpg, a map made in 1909 during the partition of Bengal. It obviously also included Burma in the Indian Empire, a situation which changed after 1937.   There is also a map from 1915: File:IndianEmpireCeylon1915.jpg, a map made after the reunification of Bengal.  Sorry, I couldn't help out more.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  01:28, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi, nice to interact with you after a long gap! I also faintly remembered that you had uploaded such images, and that is why I pinged you to see if you remember. Hmmm... so the situation is not much encouraging. We can of course use the 1909 map, but it would have been great to have a map showing immediate pre-partition scenario, and one afterwards. Let's see if we can find out one.
 * As you have noted, Bose article is getting some attention. I saw you starting editing it as well. It would be immensely helpful for the article if you help improve it. Of course there will be some (perhaps significant) clash of point of views, but we know from our past experience that in the process ultimately the article gains. As you are very much aware of, Bose has a very highly regarded status among the populace of certain parts of India, so some emotionally charged edit actions are not unexpected! With your seasoned skills, you can easily thwart such actions!
 * I remember several years back our first interaction was actually thanks to Bose article. I wanted to include his (or, INA's name) in India article. There was very nice discussion in the talk page. I sincerely hope all the editors (including relatively recent batch of active editors) would also be nice and rational in their discussion. I really hope to improve the article, and you have already started doing so. I am excited!! Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 02:09, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Can you word your sentences in a civil tone?
Avoid calling freedom fighters as mentally unbalanced Indian, frauds and stop using words like whupped Bose's ass. Maintain some Civility. I had informed you here but you use those words again.Do not show your biases on Wikipedia --sarvajna (talk) 16:17, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Idle thoughts of a : One man's "freedom fighter" is another man's "revolutionary", "anarchist" etc. In the Indian context of Wikipedia, there seem to have been a lot of them that did very little & I've sometimes wondered whether the self-upliftment of sankritisation might also apply to bigging up what my daddy did in the war etc. - Sitush (talk) 16:22, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * cut the crap Sitush, because George Washington fought against Britain does that mean that a Briton can call washington a mental case on wikipedia. You can have your own opinion but do not bring it on wikipedia. I am sure you have absolutely no idea about who Subhash Chandra Bose was and that is the reason why you say In the Indian context of Wikipedia, there seem to have been a lot of them that did very little. Even if he had done very little(which is not true) Fowler just cannot call him a mentally unbalanced Indian and a fraud. --sarvajna (talk) 17:56, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I did make some intemperate remarks. I was tired and looking to blow off steam, but, clearly, that wasn't the right venue to do it.  Regards,  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  01:07, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * ... and I wasn't commenting on Bose, or indeed on what F&f said. Mine were "idle thoughts": general ruminations about nothing particularly specific. - Sitush (talk) 02:12, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Though Washington's incapacity in retreat and encantonment makes me think poorly of his mental hygiene and precious bodily fluids. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:39, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Pakistan murdabad
Fowler, what's going on here. The fact that there are events that are accompanied by a cry of Pakistan Murdabad doesn't make the slogan significant. Detailing each event in gory detail makes little sense. Presumably there were equally horrendous events during partition that were not accompanied by that slogan and the fact that Sikhs butchered or raped muslims has little, if anything at all, to do with the slogan. Where are you going with this? --regentspark (comment) 20:20, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, any slogan that throws up over three hundred books on Google, many scholarly, is a notable part of the history of the subcontinent. I myself had little idea about it this morning, and was going to vote delete, until I began to look at the sources.  Its significance has little to do with its contemporary, perfunctory, use by various political demonstrators in India (or Balochistan) for that matter.  It is inextricably linked with the partition and with anti-Muslim sentiment in the Punjab, just as Pakistan Zindabad, also from the same time, is linked with pro-partition, pro-Pakistan, sentiment, and whose shouting often accompanied anti-Sikh violence.  It is true that for now as a place holder I've quoted two authors in detail, but that doesn't take away from the significance and the encyclopedic justification of having such a page. In contrast, "Hindustan Zindabad" and "Hindustan Murdabad" were later copy-cat slogans used, for example, in Kashmir.  I find it hard to believe that a scholarly treatment of these slogans are being considered attack pages.  Without the connection with the violence of the partition, both "Pakistan Murdabad," and "Pakistan Zindabad" are meaningless nonnotable slogans.  With the partition connection they become an inextricable (if ugly) part of modern Indian history.  This is not a page about the semantic or grammatical nuances of the phrase, but rather the historical context.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  21:46, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd personally prefer to see scholars explicitly tie the slogan in as an integral part of the violence during partition. But, will wait and see where you take this article. At present, with apologies, it seems like OR to me. --regentspark (comment) 22:12, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately this and the related slogans (Pakistan Zindabad, Hindustan Zindabad) were associated with atrocities related to partition riot. As an example, this page. --Dwaipayan (talk) 23:26, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * There's no reason why the article should stay just because the slogan was raised during the partition. What is there in this article that can't be merged into any other partition-related article or Anti-Pakistan sentiment? To be honest, WP:COATRACK applies in this scenario. Don't you believe a Violence during the partition of India article would serve that purpose better? Or you can take a look at my recent thread at RegentsPark's talk page where I suggested an article on Cultural relations between India and Pakistan, similiar to Cultural relationship between the Welsh and the English, which can discuss anti-national sentiments present in both countries. That would actually be more encyclopedic.  Mar4d  ( talk ) 05:40, 20 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi F&f, it is nice to see your humorous edit summaries and comments (sometime) which energizes the editors, any way I am here to complain you about yourself,
 * You had reverted this sourced edit there was no objection for this edit. Please self revert it or start a discussion on talk page ?
 * In the name of correction/rescuing you are engaging fellow editors into edit warring by reverting their work without any discussion and by leaving uncivil edit summaries, please avoid that. Hope you will also maintain WP:civility. Regards :) --Omer123hussain (talk) 21:57, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Possibly unfree File:M.A. Jinnah, Master Tara Singh, and Khizar Hayat Tiwana.jpg
A file that you uploaded or altered, File:M.A. Jinnah, Master Tara Singh, and Khizar Hayat Tiwana.jpg, has been listed at Possibly unfree files because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the file's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the file description page. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Stefan2 (talk) 22:07, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Thank you! A very pleasant surprise indeed.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  20:48, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

July 2012
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would like to remind you not to attack other editors, as you did on Rape during the Bangladesh Liberation War. Please comment on the content and not the contributors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. You are welcome to rephrase your comment as a civil criticism of the article. Thank you. lTopGunl (talk) 16:41, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You've already been blocked and warned twice for templating established users.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  18:36, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

WP:INCOTMNOM
Hi there! Thanks for voting and helping in selecting Indian Independence Day as the GA of the month under WP:INCOTM. Please give your vote for the Collaboration section as well. Cheers!:) B Positive   (talk)   13:19, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Stop taking off the image
The foreigners don't know where the Kashmir entity is located in the Jammu-Kashmir-Ladakh geography. Stop removing the image in Kashmir article. --Opus88888 (talk) 08:42, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Please see my reply to your edits on Talk:Kashmir. Best regards,  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  11:46, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I have been making many corrections in the Spanish Wikipedia in regard to Kashmir region, division, valley, etc. --Opus88888 (talk) 10:53, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That's great, Opus88888! I'm curious: are you allowed to cite English-language sources on the Spanish Wikipedia or do you have to provide Spanish-language sources?   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  11:03, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Preferred versions
I actually preferred the IP's version because it seemed to be less pov-y. Am I missing some subtlety in the language? - Sitush (talk) 17:21, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yup. My mistake.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  19:48, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No big deal. There was a point earlier today when it seemed as if all I had been doing was hitting the undo link. - Sitush (talk) 20:19, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Sitush, I just noticed my reply. Obviously, I meant, "No.  My mistake."  On some days, even the extra coffee doesn't do anything for the health of my brain.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  11:07, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

FAC update
Hi! FYI, Independence Day (India) is in the FAC. Your suggestions would be invaluable. You might be surprised to find striking resemblance between the text of "History" section of the article and the text in India article which was chiseled by you. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 17:01, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Have I lost the plot?
Have I lost the plot here? It is a pretty awkward term to GSearch. - Sitush (talk) 18:18, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * See also in addition to, both have been used for disruptive moves. I blocked one before and had a huge mess to clean up. You might want to take this to WP:AC/DS as it's supposedly for everything India now. cheers. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  18:31, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * And I see he's back to these moves of churches. You might want to ask for assistance here as he's been involved with the Indian Christianity project. cheers &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  18:34, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Rahul Gandhi
This is becoming increasingly confusing. This TOI source says he attended St. Columba's and Convent of Jesus & Mary with his sister Priyanka Gandhi. Your source says he was at Modern school before joining Doon and ultimately being home-schooled due to security reasons. What's the story? -- Merlaysamuel : Speechify  07:41, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The Times of India story is social fluff and unreliable. The Outlook is a respected magazine; its story is more solid&mdash;it describes two incidents at the school, and names the headmistress.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  10:30, 2 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi Fowler. I have undone your change. May I request you to kindly not delete non-contentious information from BLPs unless one has not been able to get any reliable sources? While you may have assessed the Times of India source, a simple search could have given you sources like DNA, Zee, and many others that cite St. Columba's etc. As much as is clear about the 15 year old Outlook link you provide, Sunil Mehra the author seems to be a fluff writer who reviews books and has written quite a few Page 3 reports. And seeing the correct link of your Outlook article here, it's quite clear that your link is a primary opinion piece of Sunil Mehra on Rahul Gandhi. I would be loathe to consider Sunil Mehra's primary reportage as being superior to mainline news reportage. You can take up this discussion about your Outlook link on the talk page of the article and re-add it if others agree. Thanks and do please continue your good editing work. Wifione  Message 11:46, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid it is not. Both the DNA and Zee news constitute trivial mention.  He may have gone to St. Columba's as well, but the Junior Modern is well-documented.  Please don't presume to teach me about primary sources.  That is not a primary source by a long shot.    Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  12:59, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Muslims in India don't do it
Really? "Although this phenomenon originated among Hindu communities, it has spread to Muslim communities in India as well as Pakistan and Bangladesh." Women's Rights and Islamic Family Law: Perspectives on Reform p258 Darkness Shines (talk) 21:47, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Re your statement here I am not Indian, I believe that such repugnant actions belong in the lede regardless of which country does it. If you are OK with it we can close the RFC and I will leave it to your judgement as to were in the lede it ought to be placed. Darkness Shines (talk) 07:03, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please accept my apologies. I have now added a mention of Pakistan in the lead.  Regards,  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  14:15, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well done you for trying, it is such a pity you got it so terribly wrong. Don't worry about it, I will rectify your mistake. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:32, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Reply on reply regarding Independence Day
Hi! Thanks a lot. Yes, we borrowed freely from the text from India article. However, that forms only a part of it. As a result, there may be some drop in prose quality in some parts of the article. Hope you will like it.--Dwaipayan (talk) 13:46, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot for taking time to read the article. Right now I am in a hurry and can not reply in detail; will do so soon. However, we are not really targeting FA status by this 15 August, that is clearly impossible. Our goal is to achieve the best achievable state (whatever that might be) by 15 August ( on that day the article traffic jumps tremendously).
 * In short, I totally agree with you that the history/background of the article should be about the day itself, not the whole independence movement. I read somewhere that Mountbatten chose this day to coincide with the victory over Japan day. Pakistan got 14 August as Mountbatten had to be physically present on both ceremonies.
 * I disagree with you in one concern. Length is not a FA criteria. The FA criteria is comprehensive. If a short article on a topic is comprehensive enough, it can still be a FA. In any case, I think, you can leave your comments in FAC nomination page. So that others, besides me, can also participate, and respond to your suggestions.
 * I had real trouble finding out proper source for the ways of celebration of the day! The present state sort of succinctly says about the celebration rituals. We will work more on the article. Your guidance and suggestion ( and edits) will be invaluable in improving the article. Thanks a lot. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 12:23, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Talkback
 D Big X ray  21:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

The Olive Branch: A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #1)
Welcome to the first edition of The Olive Branch. This will be a place to semi-regularly update editors active in dispute resolution (DR) about some of the most important issues, advances, and challenges in the area. You were delivered this update because you are active in DR, but if you would prefer not to receive any future mailing, just add your name to this page. In this issue: Read the entire first edition of The Olive Branch -->
 * Background: A brief overview of the DR ecosystem.
 * Research: The most recent DR data
 * Survey results: Highlights from Steven Zhang's April 2012 survey
 * Activity analysis: Where DR happened, broken down by the top DR forums
 * DR Noticeboard comparison: How the newest DR forum has progressed between May and August
 * Discussion update: Checking up on the Wikiquette Assistance close debate
 * Proposal: It's time to close the Geopolitical, ethnic, and religious conflicts noticeboard. Agree or disagree?

--The Olive Branch 19:03, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

About my reversal in India
Let's solve our disagreements in the India talk. I am starting a new page there solely for proposed changes by me. Okay? Mrt 3366   (Talk page?)   07:41, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Are you there, hello?? Mrt  3366   (Talk page?)   09:51, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Check out my new proposal. Hope it suffices the need of the moment. Mrt  3366   (Talk page?)   07:49, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

ANI
Hello. There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding the template with which you have been involved. Comment there if you like. Mrt 3366   (Talk page?)   09:39, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Talkback
Stefan2 (talk) 14:11, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Notice of Dispute resolution discussion
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding the process is getting spiral and exceedingly time-consuming. Content disputes can hold up article development, therefore we request your participation in the discussion to help find a resolution. The thread is "Talk:India".The discussion is about the topic Template:Largest cities of India. Thank you! -- Mrt 3366 (Talk?)  [ (New thread?) ] 10:03, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment here and let's settle the dispute. This will help get us the wider input. Since you say there is not even "remotely" a consensus. Well this will give us a chance to get what we seek. Mrt 3366  (Talk?)  [ (New thread?) ] 12:03, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Talkback
Which policy do you base your claims on? Like having "too low resolution", or being "photoshopped" means the image fails to meet some sort of criteria. Why do you talk as though they are in some terrible disadvantage? I mean is there a strict policy or guideline that I should know about? Mrt 3366 (Talk?)  [ (New thread?) ] 13:53, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * What's up with the images at India's talkpage? Is there some poll going on?  Yours are much more illustrative by the way. JanetteDoe (talk) 03:09, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, they are setting up a rotation template for the economy section. 8 images each for the urban and rural sectors (I think).  Thanks.  I want the images and captions to be informative.    Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  03:16, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

DRN
I saw your comment on the DRN. As one of the other volunteers, I offer my sympathies. I hope this doesn't discourage you from editing. Ideally, a compromise can still be reached.--SGCM (talk)  12:45, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your concern. No, it won't discourage me from editing, although I'm tempted to work in calmer waters like Lepidoptera or perhaps Sea Urchin.  I could agree to a collapsed template with two images to be chosen by consensus on the talk India page.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  14:47, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Fowler, glad to see the stuff at DRN hasn't put you off from offered yet another fine spread of images at Talk:India. Again, real lemons-to-lemonade stuff on your part. Best. Saravask 05:12, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * I didn't. Thank you very much!  I'm delighted by the barnstar!  A very pleasant surprise indeed!   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  12:31, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you!
Thank you for the barnstar! It was very thoughtful of you. :)--SGCM (talk)  06:07, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Sock?
I am tempted to open a SPI report re: Talk:Caste, or perhaps just ask Elockid or Salvio to do an ad hoc checkuser. This is surely one of three people, but the problem is that it is a fishing expedition unless it can be narrowed down. Thoughts? - Sitush (talk) 15:54, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it is a good idea. I think you can name three people (or ask Elockid or Salvio about it and let them suggest the way forward).    Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  16:22, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Please also consider user:Harvardoxford. Compare user pages and dates of first/last edits.  Please note Indian usage "presently."  Also, if you scour edit history, note the spelling, "Hindoo."   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  19:34, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Dispute resolution on a more personal level
Aside from the exterior antagonism that might seem apparent between us, I really appreciate what you're doing for the article India (don't ever let my stridency cloud that sentiment) and I, as a matter of fact, cannot stand even the mildest form of animosity with anyone for long anyway. So, let me start by telling you that I like your newly added images (esp. FE1, FE2, FE4, FE8, FE11, FE12, FE13) and don't disagree with the protocol (I even share your views in some points) per se as much as I despise the gleam of arbitrariness coming from it. Let me assure that there is no ego involved in what I have written on that RFC page. I initiated that RFC really for what it looks on the surface. Please allow me to clarify that there was no disingenuous agenda or intended allusion to India underneath that request. Of course it's true that I, for one, honestly believe, with or without images, a city population template will enhance the article. But it's okay that you and others vehemently disagree. Would "violently" be a better word instead of Vehemently?(Sarcasm intended ) If it were, same would be applicable for me too, I guess. Anyway, enough levity for now. I wanted to know and still want to know what people actually make of those templates in general. I mean, I wanted to know, am I being too pushy? I seriously feel, it would be better if there was more uniformity and consistency regarding the structure and presentation of information, among articles about Nations across wikipedia. Again, you're free to disagree. Nevertheless, that was my reason and I wanted to share it with you. Thanks for your time. Cheers! P.S. I couldn't help expecting a tinge of amicability in return. Mrt 3366 (Talk?)  [ (New thread?) ] 16:18, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No hard feelings on my part. I think one good thing about the RfC is that it gives us a community-wide view.  In the future we could refer to it.  We would have something tangible, and would be less vulnerable to accusations of "ownership by a cabal."  Thanks for your post.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  12:48, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Exactly, I will gladly accept that and if I am on a fringe then that's the fact I have to deal with.  Mrt 3366  (Talk?)  [ (New thread?) ] 06:19, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I don't have any trust in your motivations. I believe you are an obsessively tendentious editor who is having a hard time growing up and accepting that things don't always go his way. Posting sanctimonious affirmations of good intentions on this page go only so far, when they are belied by your actions again and again and again.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  20:30, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That's okay. You know, the more you speak about me, the more it reveals your true character. And I don't like what I see. You've already expressed your spite and my answer will remain the same, "I couldn't care less about what you believe". Mrt 3366  (Talk?)  [ (New thread?) ] 07:40, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Request for analysis of reliability of a book
Hi, I, and a few other editors, have been using this book Madras, Chennai: A 400-year Record of the First City of Modern India, Volume 1 as a reference for the Chennai article. Today, I noticed a line in the book exactly same as in a newspaper article. As you are a professor, I request your opinion on how reliable this book is. -- Anbu121 ( talk me ) 20:03, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi there, I don't know much about the book, and can't access it on Google books, but for Madras history, the best person to ask is: User:Ravichandar84.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  00:12, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Access difficulties
I can't access the article from Encyclopedia of the Developing World. When I click on it all I get is a front cover with no clickthroughs. Since it is not possible to copy large sections of content without violating copyright laws (WP:NFCCEG) and your proposal rests on this article, I guess I'll have to wait for other editors to comment on the proposal first. Regards. Correct Knowledge «৳alk»  13:36, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Well, I'll have to send you a scan of the article.  But I'm now gone for the rest of the day.  So, it'll have to be tomorrow.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  13:49, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'll add my email address by tomorrow. Correct Knowledge  «৳alk»  13:53, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for sending me a scanned copy of the article by Veena Das. The article was enlightening, to say the least. Correct Knowledge  «৳alk»  17:58, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

New section at Administrators noticeboard
Hello. There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you are involved. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 17:58, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Seconded. I can't believe the hostility you've had to put up with. Well done for focusing on reliable sources and logical argument. MartinPoulter (talk) 10:40, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you Doctors both. That support was very timely and welcome!  I try to stay focused on the sources, but every so often the background noise gets to me.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  12:25, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah it can't be helped at times, certain people have a habit of making situations 100 times worse than they need be. I like Martin noticed you seemed to be having an unfeasibly difficult time. Heads up, you do good work here.♦ Dr. Blofeld  20:18, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Just in case
I saw that the rollback discussion closed as not removed, but you'd suggested earlier in the discussion that it may be removed. If you find it to be more of a distraction than benefit, let me know if you'd like to have it removed -- then you'll have to use either twinkle or undo and won't see the automatic rollback option on your watchlist -- I'll remove the right as user requested. cheers. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  04:00, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Spiff. Let me mull it over.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  10:29, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * May not be a bad idea. Rollback is useful mainly for vandal fighters and is a recipe for trouble otherwise. Undo is just as useful when you want to point out that an editor is being tendentious or just painfully idiotic :) --regentspark (comment) 11:52, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Protocol
Hi f&f. Are you and Anbu121 done with the protocol? If yes, could one of you remove the underconstruction tag and collapse the discussion. Thx. --regentspark (comment) 18:01, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, Didn't realize that it was still here.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  18:03, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Jat vs Jatt
Hi, I recall seeing a discussion somewhere regarding "Jatt" being a pov version of "Jat", rather than merely a difference in transliteration. I didn't understand it then and I cannot even remember the detail now. Any ideas? At least in English sources, the later seems to be the more common spelling in my experience and thus, for example, Jatt Sikh probably should be renamed (and copyedited) per WP:COMMONNAME. - Sitush (talk) 00:03, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, WP:Commonname certainly supports "Jat." Not sure about the POV part.  You could ask user:Sikh history.  He seems to be main contributor.  I noticed too that the two pictures in their own Commons captions merely say Punjabi woman or Punjabi farmer; how then did the WP page authors divine the subjects to be Jats?  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  00:34, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll have a word with SH, although the issue extends further than just that one article. Good spot regarding the pics - I'll remove those if I cannot spot some clue. Without some sort of evidence, that is the ultimate in racial stereotyping! - Sitush (talk) 18:45, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Can you assist
I am getting very fed up dealing with various issues (and one person) at an article. You seem to have better access to resources than me - any chance that you could check the suspicions regarding RS that I raise here? Maybe I am going mad, although I doubt it. - Sitush (talk) 09:19, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Gaṇa sangha
Can you take a look at this one? For you, it'd be an easy stub to fix. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  14:12, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Caste
You have added a map to the page, it is a 1909 map, how relevant is it? There has been a lot of changes to the demography in 100+ years --sarvajna (talk) 02:32, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Try telling that to the hundreds of caste warriors who rely on Edgar Thurston etc for demographics/claims of kshatriya status etc - they use him in the present tense and will consider no change ;) This query should be at Talk:Caste: it is of relevance to far more people than F&f. - Sitush (talk) 08:07, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
 * @Ratnakar.kulkarni Thanks for your post.  Per Piotrus, the page is 45% about theory, 30% about India, etc. The map is an example of what was considered "theory" 100 years ago.  Note the "ethnographic" in quotes and the "purports."  I am being ironic there.  The point of the caption is to present an outdated bit of "theory."  But, perhaps, I should be a little more explicit in the caption to avoid any misinterpretation.  I will also mention it on Talk:Caste.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  09:12, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Got your point, I have one more question, there was a discussion on the Noticeboard for India related topics regarding the photo montages in the caste based articles. Is it ok to have Caste paintings of Indian Society in the article ?.
 * P.S: I am not taking this on the talk page of caste article 1. Because the talk page already have enough content to read 2. This is just a simple question, honestly I neither oppose the inclusion nor support it as they are not the pictures of some noteable living or dead person --sarvajna (talk) 05:29, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I still haven't got to the rest of the article! Yes, that selection of "caste paintings" is a kind of photomontage, although the discussion on WT:INDIA had to do with photomontages made from within one caste (caste puffery) and also with BLP issues.  But I agree with you.  Not a great illustration; also, it tends to further the previous POV of the article, that caste in India was really not the preserve of one religious group.  After all, it starts with "Muslim man," and includes "Arab soldier," "Sikh chief," "Tribal chief," and "fencer" among the 8 chosen. What the caption forgets to tell you is that they were pictures of "castes" observed in the Madurai area during 25 years, that there are 72 in the collection, most of which are Hindus. What it also forgets to tell you (and this is my own reading) is that it was a collection presented to an American Methodist leader, Revd. Manning, by an American missionary in India, Daniel Poor.  In 1813 Charter Act, the British government had allowed Christian missionaries to proselytize in India.  Since 1813+25 = 1838, the approximate year of the presentation, it was the initiative of a "first generation" American missionary in India.  In other words, this is a naive view of caste and ethnic differences in India.  I mean naive for the level of general understanding about caste that existed in 1837.  The British has already established the Calcutta and Benares Sanskrit colleges in the 1780s and 90s; Calcutta's Presidency College had been founded in 1817.  William Jones had already founded the Asiatic Society and proposed the Indo-European languages hypothesis in the 1780s.  So, these pictures were hardly state of the art knowledge in 1837. Anyway, before I get carried away, :), let me say, I'll look for a replacement ASAP.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  12:02, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Just to inform you I have reverted a removal of yours.--sarvajna (talk) 18:12, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

FAR
Can you take a look at User:SpacemanSpiff/FAR and add? I promised Dana that I'd work on a FAR plan for some of these and enlist your help. cheers. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  15:03, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Is "Western Ganga Dynasty" a real thing? Everything I can see on google search results appears to link back to Wikipedia. Made up by DK and pushed all the way to Featured Status? regentspark (comment) 15:47, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That is part of the problem here. There is a Western Ganga dynasty, but it's nothing like what our article claims it to be. And the bigger problem is that there's varying versions (if you see Pondheepankar's edits to Kongu/Gounder topics, you'll see the other version). It's a huge mess that needs cleaning up sooner than later. There;s also articles like Kannada literature under Western Ganga and stuff. Chola is still less of a mess, Vadakkan/Arvind, Abecedare and I spent a little time on it a couple of years back when this started. cheers. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  17:20, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Talkbalk
Please chime in! &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  15:31, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Economy images
Are we good to go for voting? Anbu, Mrt, CorrectKnowledge, this is for all of you. --regentspark (comment) 15:30, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, we are (at least I am). Sorry, I came down with something.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  13:30, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Hope whatever it was has gone away. Images are now in the competent hands of Anbu121 so no worries. --regentspark (comment) 15:08, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Maps of India
Hi! You have signed yourself under Maps group of Commons:WikiProject India. At WT:INB we are discussing a drive for cleaning various articles related to Indian cities/towns/villages. Your views in general and specifically on maps are welcome. §§ §§ {T/C} 07:57, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Hello
Hi, I was just checking to see whether you were still active here. Glad to see you're still in the community. I've been on a wikibreak for about a year-and-a-half and have done next to no editing during that time, but hope to be contributing more now. Hope your break is going well yourself. Happy holidays to you and yours. Best, MarmadukePercy (talk) 19:28, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

_ Ravi My Tea Kadai 00:46, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Hello
Could you please take a look at Kashmiri literature? I think it needs an editor who is au fait with that kind of stuff. I know you have experience, hence could you improve this article as you deem fit. I really am out of my depth here. Mr T (Talk?)  [ (New thread?) ] 07:26, 3 March 2013 (UTC)