User talk:Fran Rogers/Archive 3

Speedy closing discussions
YOu closed several discussions at WP:UCFD as "Delete". Your edit summary said that they were speedy deletions per WP:SNOW. The reasoning (in most cases) was fine, but you should note that at the top of each discussion, rather than just the edit summary. So instead of:

instead:
 * Delete
 * Speedy Delete per WP:SNOW.

Incidentally, closing discussions per WP:SNOW (especially with results of "Delete") has become controversial recently, so you may wish to keep that in mind when deciding whether a discussion should continue the full 5 days, or not.

Also, there were three discussions that clearly didn't qualify for WP:SNOW, since they only had 3 or less contributors:


 * Category:Dadaist Wikipedians
 * Category:Transformation Fetishist Wikipedians
 * Category:BBW Wikipedians

Based on the above, I'll go ahead and help and clarify your closures, and relist those three since they were improperly closed. If you have any thoughts or concerns about this, please let me know. - jc37 00:51, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Mack G
You closed the AfD and deleted Mack G, but not all of the other articles associated with it. Corvus cornix 15:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. Corvus cornix 18:44, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Rogue Cat
Haha good one!  Ali  (t)(c) 00:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Love the macro templates, man. Made one meself --> User:Riana/Cat. There shall be many more, I hope. Riana (talk)  03:26, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

User:Eep²
This user recently finished a block and has immediately resumed going against consensus by restoring all of edits that were reverted during the block and continues |his incivility. You previously declined Eep's unblock request and warned him about further disruption, so I thought I would let you know. Thanks.--Dcooper 16:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Message for user:H
Hi Krimpet, could you please put a message on user talk:H for me? It's a page you protected. "Dear H, I'm so sorry this happened. Thank you for making this place better. Living well is the best revenge. Take care and Happy Solstice. Kla'quot (talk | contribs) 06:39, 23 June 2007 (UTC)" Thanks in advance Krimpet! Kla'quot (talk | contribs) 08:13, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. =)  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  11:36, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Me too? "H, I am sorry to see you go; you were an asset to this project and will be sorely missed. GDonato (talk) 11:54, 23 June 2007 (UTC)" Thanks, GDonato (talk) 11:54, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * And done =)  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  12:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks Krimpet, you're an asset too :-) GDonato (talk) 12:51, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks Krimpet! Kla'quot (talk | contribs) 17:09, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Deletion review of Spyware Terminator
An editor has asked for a deletion review of Spyware_terminator. Since you closed the deletion discussion for this article or speedy-deleted it, you might want to participate in the deletion review. Cableguytk 04:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Block removal
I believe your unblock of Rambutan to be wholly inappropriate. No policy supports summary removal of talk page comments because you think they're off topic - especially when no discussion is going on. Rambutan's removals were things like this:. That is not an extended discussion, is not disruptive, and, frankly, isn't even unrelated to writing the article, as specifying what the "deadly trap" is would be a sensible thing to do in the article. Furthermore, the nearest policy to "remove off-topic discussion" would be Remove personal attacks, which is widely seen as a bad idea for exactly the same reason that Rambutan's removal is - it's disruptive.

And now, by unblocking him, you have not only overturned an administrator action without any comment or discussion with the original admin, but you've actually encouraged him to continue removing talk page comments without any support in policy.

Please be more responsible in the future when using your admin tools. Phil Sandifer 13:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * And indeed, he is now making declarations like, heightening one of the basic problems with his original actions, which is that they demonstrate the distressing degree to which Rambutan, entirely out of good faith, acts as though he is the sole force who polices articles on new episodes of Doctor Who. I would further point out that he has made far more than three removals in a day, which violates WP:3RR, since the material he is removing is not vandalism. For that reason alone, the block should have stood. Phil Sandifer 13:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I was willing to assume good faith in this situation; keep in mind he was not acting unilaterally, as he did find consensus for this at the Village Pump. I didn't know he was violating 3RR in doing so; if he is, OK, he should be blocked for 3RR.  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  19:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Two people, one of whom has only been here for about three months, and neither of whom are administrators, don't really seem to me to be a consensus to do something, particularly when no policy pages support it and you're using automated tools like Twinkle to do it. Phil Sandifer 21:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I overviewed his edits and while he does use Twinkle, he didn't use TW for the removals in question. Additionally, you were the only one who told him to stop (Tony Sidaway, also under the mistaken impression that he was using TW, advised him against using it); how is that any more of a consensus to go ahead and block him? No policy or guideline supports blocking him in this case either. While it's true only two people weighed in at the Village Pump discussion, the fact that he has been trying to ensure there is consensus for his actions indicated to me that guidance, rather than blocking, would be more appropriate.  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  21:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

User talk:TomitakePrincess
I'm going to unblock her page to give her one last chance at an unblock request, in the interests of fairness here. If there's any abuse, back on it goes. I just want to ensure that due process is followed here to the letter. Thanks for the help on this one :) - A l is o n  ☺ 22:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

FYI
AfD 66.142.91.213 18:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:PASH newsletter - Issue 2

 * Want to help on next month's newsletter? Don't want to receive these in future? Don't want it subst'd next time? – It's all here. --  J A 10  Talk • Contribs 02:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Snell
I see you tagged this article as not asserting notability. I completely agree. It also has COI and VAIN concerns. I would suggest that this be moved to AfD. Eusebeus 12:56, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

My Block
First thanks for unblocking me.. Second could you look at the two articles that me and the other administrator were argueing about and explain to me how I can put those references in? Also can I list Spanish Wikipedia article as a source? Callelinea
 * According to our source citing guidelines, either WP:REF or general references at the end - like the ones you used - are OK. Thus there was nothing wrong with your reference sections policy-wise; your block was improper. However, it seems the reason the blocking admin thought you were adding external links was the large amount of general sources without specifying why all these sources were necessary. I would suggest using inline citations to pinpoint which statement is supported by which source, and removing redundant sources. (Other wikis are not considered reliable sources by en.wp standards, however.) Good luck, and thank you for your efforts!  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  03:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you so much. Callelinea 07:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Protection of People's Republic of China
Ugh. This isn't an edit war worthy of page protection. This is an IP editor who cannot spell and another editor who got too involved. One or the other of these two should have gone to 3RR and be done with it. Without taking any side on the POV issue brought up, and as a practical matter, the current version is horrible. The IP editor cannot spell and has totally destroyed the sections of the article he worked on. This article is one of the most well-read by outsiders on the entire project and the current revision cannot stand for a week - it puts Wikipedia to shame just on grammar. Please remove the protection and let it be fixed by more people. SchmuckyTheCat
 * I agree with Schmucky: I think it would be best to unprotect in this case, as it's only a small editing skirmish that could have ended with a 3RR block anyway. It doesn't seem right to me that all editors get locked out of the article because two chose to edit war. Thanks for your consideration. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 07:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I've unprotected it.  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  09:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot. Cheers, Heimstern Läufer (talk) 10:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. SchmuckyTheCat

July 2007 GAC backlog elimination drive
A new elimination drive of the backlog at Good article candidates  will take place from the month of July through August 12, 2007. There are currently about 130 articles that need to be reviewed right now. If you are interested in helping with the drive, then please visit Good article candidates backlog elimination drive and record the articles that you have reviewed. Awards will be given based on the number of reviews completed. Since the potential amount of reviewers may significantly increase, please make sure to add :GAReview underneath the article you are reviewing to ensure that only one person is reviewing each article. Additionally, the GA criteria may have been modified since your last review, so look over the criteria again to help you to determine if a candidate is GA-worthy. If you have any questions about this drive or the review process, leave a message on the drive's talk page. Please help to eradicate the backlog to cut down on the waiting time for articles to be reviewed.

You have received this message either due to your membership with WikiProject: Good Articles and/or your inclusion on the Good article candidates/List of reviewers. --Nehrams2020 23:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Tibet
Check out the history The Tibet page is a nightmare to upkeep mostly from a massive number of anonymous users who think it is a forum to promote Chinese politics. The China-Tibet debate is becoming a major problem for the page. It needs constant reverting nearly on a daily basis as it will degrade quickly - we're trying to keep a neutral balanced argument between Tibetan nationalism and PRC policies as you'd expect in an encyclopedia entry and because of continued edits many of which are not even written in proper english are affecting the intergrity of an important wikipedia article. If you do look at the massive histiry of the page by unregistered users and reverting you'll see that the issue will never die down and will need ongoing protection as soon as possible. Please try to do somrthing thanks -I see the PRC page is also having a tremndous amount of problems -there are 1.3 billion Chinese after all!! ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Expecting you" Contribs 20:11, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

What the Bleep
Many thanks for protecting What the Bleep Do We Know!?. Would it be possible for you to revert the protected page to a version that does not contain OR/Synthesis and has the fact tags that were removed by the last editor? The article is full of OR right now. this version has most of the OR removed and has the fact tags present. I think removal of the OR is best for the article and will help the talk page discussion move forward. Thanks! Dreadstar †
 * While I agree that OR is wholly unacceptable, of the information you are requesting be removed, at least some of it does appear to have sources, which hints to me that this dispute is over more than simply OR. Additionally, reverting protected pages generally only fans the flames even more, rather than helping the debate move forward. Please try to reach a consensus on the talk page instead.  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  19:03, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your consideration. The appearance of sources for the material is false, the citations do not contain the information the reference is used for (the salon.com article, for instance, does not say that the movie is based on the the Ramtha School of Enlightenment).


 * You are so right, this is obviously not just about OR, it appears to me that the editors who insist on adding the OR are POV-pushing, and edit warring to do keep it in. The article currently violates policy, so I think it's totally unacceptable for OR to remain in the article, even during the dispute resolution that will now hopefully start.  With their POV/OR in place, I see no reason (and no history) to indicate that those pushing that POV will stonewall and force us to go to unreasonable lengths.


 * I've tried my hardest to present my reasoning, only to be met with edit warring and useless remarks from the POV editors., , ,.


 * I think leaving the article as is creates a much more difficult environment for discussion, leaves an article with material that violates Wikipedia policy in place...but I will try to get it resolved. I hope and beg you to reconsider.  (well, not really beg...but it sounded good, eh?  :)  19:21, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * After reviewing your diffs, I agree, some questionable activity and falsified research is going on from those editors. As the protecting admin I am still reluctant to do any reverting, however, as people often cry foul when The Wrong Version is protected; however I have added an original research tag to the article, which I hope is an OK compromise. =)  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  19:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, thank you for reviewing my diffs and adding the tag! At least now there is something to indicate a possible issue...  much appreciated.  While I do think you would stand on solid ground for reverting additions of material that violate policy, I understand your reluctance to revert.  I'll see how things go, and if the discussions don't get more fruitful, I'll update you.  Thanks much!  Dreadstar  †  19:38, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Is it correct to say that this section is full of OR/Synthesis of published material service to advance a position? Looks exactly like that to me... Dreadstar  †  19:46, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * If you have the time, can you review my logic here: ? I want to make sure my understanding of synthesis is right...Thanks!! Dreadstar  †  21:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Short update, I've gathered most of the OR/Synthesis material in a sandbox, so everone can edit and provide sources, explained OR/Synthesis in great detail on the article's talk page and got agreement from a knowledgable admin on the WP:NOR Talk page that the content I've identified is OR. A bit of work, but I think it should help us to resolve the situation. Not much from the revert-warring editors on this leg of the process yet...;)

Let me know how you think I'm doin' :)  Thanks!  Dreadstar  †  01:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of songs about masturbation (4th nomination)
uh you really need to read the AN/I thread at Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents, this AFD was not properly listed and was an invalid AFD. Please reverse your close and let it run the normal 5 days listed as an AFD people can actually see. --W.marsh 08:42, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, OK, I didn't notice it had been improperly listed. I've gone ahead and reopened it.  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  18:05, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's easy to miss... not a normal thing one checks for. At any rate Ryulong has closed the afd again... this thing has turned into a real mess. --W.marsh 18:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Deletion discussion: NOPEC
Unfortunately, I missed the deletion discussion on NOPEC, and have only just noted the article's absence. You were the deleting administrator in that case.

NOPEC is an industry jargon term that is moderately common and not terribly new, so I don't believe its deletion under WP:NEO is valid. The original article included two external references showing use of the term: perhaps that was not considered sufficient evidence. Here are some examples.

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_05/mckillop021807.html

"CAN OPEC AND NOPEC STOP THE OIL PRICE SLIDE ?"

(It is clear from the context of the article that NOPEC means the non-OPEC oil exporting countries.)

http://www.petroleumworld.com/sati07032401.htm

"Continued and sustained oil demand growth inside OPEC and NOPEC exporter countries, specially Russia, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iran, Kuwait, Venezuela, Mexico, Algeria combined with physical depletion and erosion of oil production capacities in the majority of these countries, ensures a tight supply context. "

http://www.weforum.org/pdf/Energy.pdf

"But at the same time, consumers will for the first time in decades, have the opportunity to negotiate alternative deals with a number of suppliers that operate outside of the OPEC-pricing mechanism or be able to exploit upstream and downstream investment opportunities presented by the NOPEC producers."

http://www.clingendael.nl/publications/2004/20041100_ciep_vanderlinden.pdf

"It is generally assumed that world energy demand will grow, that import dependence grows, that there will be a growing competition among major net-importing coutnries and that the number of net-exporting countries will decline due to a relative shift in balance between OPEC-NOPEC producers."

http://www.sav.sk/journals/ekoncas/ekon203.htm

"Even though the high oil prices after two oil shocks raised oil revenues in OPEC member countries, they also gave rise to start the production in non-OPEC (NOPEC) countries."

I hope you will consider reversing the deletion.

Ordinary Person 10:27, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm convinced, this term does seem to be used in the industry after all. I've restored the article. My apologies =)  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  18:12, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Image:Conservape-tan.png listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:Conservape-tan.png, has been listed at Images and media for deletion. Please see the to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. TomTheHand 14:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/Zeitgeist_the_Movie
Hi, could you tell me which version was deleted where I was discussing the deletion outcome? If the talk page of the deletion discussion is not the proper place to discuss it, where is ? Thx &#151; Xiutwel ♫☻♥♪ (talk) 16:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * logs
 * It looks like User:Stephen deleted the version in question; I don't know why he used the deletion summary CSD G6, which IMO was improper and misleading. However, deletion review is the proper forum for reviewing deletion decisions.  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  16:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * thx &#151; Xiutwel ♫☻♥♪ (talk) 16:52, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello, could you tell me what the proper process for requesting an article to be unlocked for creation? --Trekerboy

Spurious username creation
Would you like to explain your current activity of creating various unicode-named users? Example 05:50, 17 July 2007 Krimpet (Talk | contribs) created new account User:⌬ (Talk | contribs) and 05:48, 17 July 2007 Krimpet (Talk | contribs) created new account User:↻ (Talk | contribs) and 05:35, 17 July 2007 Krimpet (Talk | contribs) created new account User:＃ (Talk | contribs) etc etc. Thanks. --218.219.212.47 05:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I was simply testing out the possible Unicode usernames that MediaWiki would accept. I was actually surprised at how lenient it was.  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  06:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This "feature" has been widely abused in the past. --218.219.212.47 06:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't do it again, please. Usernames should be meaningful identifiers in some human language. -- Karada 06:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) I was simply poking around, and had no malicious intent. Using these accounts for abuse would have been pointless for me, as the user creation log clearly links their creation to my main account.  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  06:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting me know. -- Karada 07:19, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Please. do not remove ifd tags from images
Hi, Krimpet. Please. do not remove ifd tags from images as you did. This is not the proper way to contest the deletion nomination. In fact, removing the ifd tag won't prevent an image to be deleted.

If you (or any other editor) want to contest the nomination, follow the instructions on the tag itself (that's why it's important!). But please, make sure you're familiar with our non-free content policy.

Let me know if you still have any doubts. Best regards, --Abu badali (talk) 13:21, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Conservape-tan for deletion
Regarding, I highly recommend uploading it to Commons. Wikipedia indeed is mostly for encyclopedic images, Commmons is for anything free.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

USRD
I was wondering if you would explain what you mean by your edit summary when you left the project. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 02:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I was informed that several core USRD members were planning to votestack this RfC against my favor, collaborating in an invite-only IRC channel to do so, and even downgrading my access level to #wikipedia-en-roads-us, all the while assuming bad faith over something that was essentially a non-issue. I don't see how I can participate in a project where the key leaders would act in this manner.  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  03:43, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I can only speak for myself here, but from what I saw, you were creating accounts that sure looked like WP:POINT. Maybe they weren't, but that's how it looked from people who were already upset about SLG. As for the invite-only thing, I wasn't fully aware of what +i did and why it was being used (note how bad I am at IRC sometimes) But for my part in the matter, I apologize. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 04:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * As I explained partially above, I was creating the accounts out of curiosity of what MediaWiki would accept as a valid username. I created them while logged in, to make it clear that it was just me testing things out, rather than some random IP creating a bunch of suspicious accounts; the accounts would have had little sockpuppetry potential, as the logs clearly linked their creation with my main account. While the SLG controversy was what made me curious about it, I made no contributions with any of the accounts (feel free to confirm them with Special:Contributions and Special:DeletedContributions), nor do I even remember the passwords I used for them; I note that some of the other admins did add their accounts to the SLG list in a POINTy manner, but I did not plan to. Yet nobody from the project read the explanation I had given above, nor attempted to ask me for an explanation personally. The fact that the USRD members automatically assumed bad faith and jumped on the RFC bandwagon in a way that seems to mirror the way prior controversies within USRD have unfolded, has made me lose faith in the WikiProject.  K r  i  m  p  e  t  06:15, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of Zeitgeist The Movie
== The Zeitgeist movie, needs to be restored. Regaurdless of what your claims may be for deleting it, your job here is to be an unbias data bank of information. You should only be up holding the integity and validity of the information by taking the steps neccisary to maintain turth. Never should entire articles be deleted. Who are you protecting? Not youself, your only destroying your reputation. What is your explonation your this deletion?

-Zachary J ==

I demand that Zeitgeist be removed from deletion list NOW!!! Read my comments and you will get the truth. I have over 1,000,000 people and they demand this!!! I want a reply. Don't be stupid!!!

Tim'

Greetings

can I ask what was specifically meant by COI ( Conflict of Interest ) on your summary for deletion of this article?Vexorg 04:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * See WP:COI.  Pablo   Talk  |  Contributions  04:36, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The content was heavily edited by User:Zeitgeist filmmaker, a clear conflict of interest. I note that you were the original author and another large contributor, and I am not accusing you of a CoI as well; I apologize if it appeared this way. The CoI was not the primary reason for deletion, but rather the clear consensus for lack of notability and especially verifiability.  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  04:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, thanks for that. Obviously I am diasppointed in this outcome. I created the article after watching the film and hearing about it almost everywhere I went on the Internet. I have no association with the film other than being a viewer. I have been involved in the discussion regarding notability and while I disgree I can understand. however I do not understand verifiability being a reason. The film clearly exists,which is obviously verifiable, so where was the problem in that area? Vexorg 04:47, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem is, even if the film exists, without any reliable sources at all to attribute facts to, it's impossible to verify the truth of even the basic details of the film: its release date, how word got out about the film, whether or not the film actually has a large following as claimed, etc. Unfortunately we can't rely on forums and people's personal websites to verify these facts, particularly considering the guerilla marketing used in promoting the film: how do we know to what degree these sites may have been astroturfed? I don't mean to be discouraging, as I know you created the article in good faith. =/ However if the film is later covered in reliable sources, the article can certainly be restored.  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  05:01, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the bold move of closing that horrendous meatpuppetfest early.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 05:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * question clear consensus for lack of notability and especially verifiability ... Could you please elaborate on how you established consensus? I think you just used your own judgment and ignored all opposing views. This is a majority decision at best, and this is not consensus. Did you even read the AfD page? &#151; Xiutwel ♫☻♥♪ (talk) 10:11, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Support for Question - Yes I would like to know what led to the establishment of consensus. it's worth noting that the article was deleted while I was editing it. I had put up a WP:INUSE tag as well. Surely it would have been right to inform me the page was about to be deleted at least.Vexorg 16:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Firstly, AFD is not a vote. The users who supported deleting the article brought up valid policy and guideline based reasons for deleting the article, and no valid rebuttal was produced by those wanting to keep it.  And so no matter how many people wanted the article to stay, there was actually a consensus it did not meet the notability requirement.  Further, the AFD was plagued with a sock or meatpuppet army, so straight vote counting was even more irrelevant in that case.  Someguy1221 17:56, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict)AfD is not a vote. It seemed clear to me, after looking over the entire discussion several times, that most of the keep arguments were flimsy arguments that accused Wikipedia of censorship and were trying to use WP as a springboard to "get the word out" about the movie, from users with no other contributions to WP. On the other hand, most of the delete arguments were firmly grounded in our established policies and guidelines. These policies and guidelines, being long-standing and refined by the community over many years, reflect the general consensus of the community as a whole.  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  17:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I can understand your reasoning that most of the "keep"-arguments were flimsy. However, this does not invalidate the other arguments for "keep". So what's your opinion on "give it time", "ignore all rules", "let's not depend solely on authority" and "not a bureaucracy", then? To my disappointment, I see no effort on the Afd discussion working toward consensus. Also, endless repeating of "delete, non-notable" argument IMO amounts to voting, not intelligent debate. Thx &#151; Xiutwel ♫☻♥♪ (talk) 17:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I demand you restore the article, I'm a WP user and i need information on the subject, I need to know how this film started, creators, content and some other facts about the movie. WP is a place to find information and i couldn't so i guess WP is useless. Don't start stupid discussions on weather the film is important or not, the film is out there so it is REAL and WP's job is to post all information available on the subject!!! WP is failing on doing this simple task.

And about the notability issue, let me remind all of you WP is supposed to be an ENCYCLOPEDIA not a popularity contest. Who cares if this article is useful for 1 person or 100 million? This article is informative not an opinion so it must stay! Nergar 22:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey, I can see you're really busy responding to all of the questions about your deletion of the Zeitgeist movie...NOT. Now. Luuucyyyyyyy you've got some esplaining to do!!!!!!

request userfication
Dear Krimpo, as I had already asked before you deleted it, I would like the article to be userfied until notability is established. Would you pls move the deleted article, along with its entire history intact, to my userspace?

I can hear from your banner that you are fed-up with discussing this Afd. Aware of this, I would still like to let you know that I would welcome to hear your opinion on: "give it time", "ignore all rules", "let's not depend solely on authority" and "not a bureaucracy". Notability is a guideline, which is less strict than offical policy, so I'm confused on the difference between the two. But I would understand if you'd decline right now.

&#151; Xiutwel ♫☻♥♪ (talk) 11:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I still have the article backed up at home - I was editing it at the time ( it was deleted without warning while I had an inuse tag up )Vexorg 17:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not a bureauacracy, but it is an encyclopedia; notability is a guideline, but verifiability is a non-negotiable policy. I am not userfying the article; if reliable sources existed, the article could be restored fully, but it's been clearly established that none exist thus there's no way to source the article, and userspace is not intended simply for copies of deleted articles. Once again: bring it to DRV, where the Wikipedia community can review the deletion.  K  r  i  m  p  e  t  20:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

continued...
HEY WIKIPEDIA.....The Film really excist, I can verify that because I watched the film. There is no point side tracking the issue. The film was made to create healthy debate. It seems some folks want to do anything to avoid healthy debate, hence remove the film listing and have a bunch of side debates that make no attempt to deal with the subject or views raised in the film.

To make my point clear to you, I am not at all the producer of this film nor am I connected with this film in any manner other than being a film producer myself. In my view not only is the film ZEITGEIST worthy of healthy debate as well as the views raised in the film but I also share the view that the film is one of the best produced artistic pieces I have seen coming out of the documentary genre.

I am sad to say that it seems to me more like the issue is something much different from what has been stated on Wikipedia. I read just some of the articles written for deletion and I keep seeing a common term listed "RELIABLE SOURCES", can anyone explain to me what sources in particular dealing with what information in particular would anyone on Wikipedia like varified? I do not see any mention of the information or subject that is up for debate in particular. There seems to be a problem that has not been identified fully so we can all clearly understand.

If the issue has something to do with "CHRISTIANITY" then it to me seems unfair because it would be like asking a "Christian in church to varify something of his faith. Hence the issue.

I really like my Documentaries to stick to facts that are known and not faith. I don't mind a determination if it is presented with facts that seem to support it so others can research, and that is exactly what the film seems to do.

Who can prove that the bible is a reliable source! The bible makes the ultimate claims yet no one seems to be correct or agree about much of it's contents. Hence the movie ZEITGEIST! Christians do not all consider every bible to be reliable! In fact many Christians consider other Bibles to be unreliable sources. So I hope this reliable source issue does not float back to the issue of the Christian faith.

As far as the popularity aspect of the debate. How popular does something have to be for it to be considered popular on Wikipedia? I just want to have an exact number everyone can know and " RELY" on! In my research examining how many people have watched it on YOUTUBE AND GOOGLE it has gotten great reviews and has broken threw what I would call internet popularity status. As of JULY 17th ZEITGEIST the movie "the final version only" has had 502,697 view on google alone. Yesterday ZIETGEIST the movie had 25,614 views on google alone! As far as i can see when discussing a Documentary Film these numbers are great! The movie surely has created a following and buzz in the USA.

Well I have said enough. I hope I can get some good answers from my questions and i look forward to some healthy debate because unlike many people I do have the time right now and I do love a good Film.

Take care and I hope to hear from you, Xemola 08:02, 17 July 2007 Xemola
 * In short, a lot of wikipedia editors hate the subject of the movie, and they think it will give undue credibility to the movie if wikipedia has an article about it. And vice versa, that wikipedia will loose credibility by having articles on cranky subjects. Since there is no guideline against fairly describing weird subjects, people tend to focus on Reliable sources and Notability instead. (To my opinion, to an unreasonable extent.) &#151; Xiutwel ♫☻♥♪ (talk) 15:45, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed. It's certainly true that many wikipedia editors were extremely uncomfortable with the content of the film. The passion to delete was far and above a simple complaint about the 'notability' excuse they hid behind.  I don't think it's even a cranky subject. it simply a film that makes claims and provides sources for it's claims. Besides it's a film.  Films can be about anything, they don't even have to be non-fiction.Vexorg 17:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Zeitgeist the Movie AfD
Egad.  Whispe ring  12:22, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello. This decision was taken as a form of censorship and was NOT done according to any respect for protocols or WP rules, let alone WP users.

1) I made an obvious, simple and logical argument for KEEP and that was deleted from the archived discussion. This is censorship even in the discussion.

2) The sources were in process of being compiled and the decision to delete prevented those from appearing.

This is not the first time that I have been involved with WP and experienced the heavy hand of censorship.

Wikipedia needs to be revisited and billed correctly. It is just another highly censored propaganda tool for the military's deception culture. And you sir, have done your part to make that completely evident. And these facts will get publicized!

Most sincerely, Cheryl Maietta —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)
 * I am totally uninvolved in this. However, after looking over the AFD, there was a consensus that said that the article did not cite reliable sources, was not notable, and that it was a soapbox. ( [ →] vish  win60  - is User:O in 3 days (possibly)) 18:46, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * While the notability of the article was contentious, the one thing the article was certainly NOT and that was a Soapbox. I created the article and was repsonsible for most of it's updating. I have no vested interest of attachment to the film other than being a viewer. I simple reason I craeated the article was because it is a popular and widely known film and when I looked for an article on wikipedia I couldn't see an article. I thought this was strange and set about creating one. I can appreciate certain people would be opposed to this film being anywhere let alone wikipedia as it challenges traditional viewqs on certain mythologie and the creidibility of western governments. however I nevger thought the opposition would be so passionate on wikipedia. I creatwed the article in completely good faith. Vexorg 00:26, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * We welcome your contributions, but there just weren't any reliable sources to prove that it existed and it was notable. Other editors cannot prove that it existed without those reliable sources, and therefore could not help but call it a soapbox, as it was unverifiable. ( [ →] vish  win60  - is User:O in 2 days (possibly)) 00:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * With respect, saying you can't prove the film's existence is ridiculous. The film is proof of it's own existenceVexorg 04:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Additionally, the topic is clearly notable... there is discussion of the deletion and subsequent locking of this article on the various administrative talk pages all over wikipedia. Also, the movie, it's sources (all very REAL) can be found on the movie's home page: found here. The worst about all this was that the sources on the previous version of this entry had sources cited that were even more in depth than entries on the home page, including publisher information, page numbers etc., all done by contributing authors to that article, which clearly asserts it's notoriety. It's really preposterous that this article was deleted and subsequently locked! --Trekerboy

I'm really dissapointed that zeigeist the movie was removed. I am especially dissapointed that the process of deletion went by so quickly that I didn't even have an opportunity to comment. I am not on the internet every day, but it would still be nice to have a chance to have a say. Why is the deletion process so speedy? I would think it not unreasonable to allow at least a week for discussion. I've been trying to be a good wikipedian, but I am starting to get very disillusioned. Who gets to be the final arbitrator in a deletion argument? Who decides? I think that the burden of proof should reside with those who would promote deletion. In this case, I don't think that burden was met. Moonbug 17:56, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Ditto man, ya'll are way too agressive with what is deemed wiki-worthy. You ahve to understand that your website has no credibility whatsoever. You're like the MTV movie awards and you're trying to be the oscars. you have GEG PACKER, a worthless human being in wikipedia, but you wont have a ground breaking documentary in. Thats just mind boggling, you even have Leroy Jenkins. What significance does Leroy jenkins have over The Zeitgeist movie? Absolutely ludicrous


 * I have to thank you for being bold enough to close that AFD, even knowing the negative reaction it would focus upon you. Keep up the good work ;-)  Someguy1221 02:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

commons:Image:Conservape-tan.png
I have copied the image to commons. Just an FYI -- Cat chi? 17:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Whaaaat?
What the hell did you come up with this kind of speedy keep? @pple 08:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Best close summary on wheels evar. Someone was reading the news :-) GreenReaper 08:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Between this and biting the 12-inch shell that was the Zeitgeist closing, you're my current hero. Well done! =) Tony Fox (arf!) review? 20:11, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Question
You gave me a very harsh warning about "personal attacks" on the Matt Sanchez article discussion page. Where are your equivalent warnings to Sanchez, or is fair play not part of Wikipedia? 24.18.130.89 05:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You directly attacked fellow editor WJBscribe, who was trying to mediate the dispute and clearly acting in good faith and to the letter and spirit of our biographies of living persons policies, calling him "not neutral" and "not acting in good faith." I see Sanchez himself has been attacking other editors in the same if not worse fashion, and this is completely unacceptable; however, he was already given a stern warning several weeks ago and seems to have ceased since. The fact that Sanchez has been making personal attacks does not give you the right to attack well-meaning mediators like WJBscribe.  K r  i  m  p  e  t  06:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * No, I didn't attack WJBscribe. I gave my opinion that he has violated Wikipedia's rules. He should be investigated for his misconduct. Does Wikipedia now interpret disagreement and protest as "personal attack?" Is that what this place has come to? 24.18.130.89 06:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Sanchez was given a warning several weeks ago, and he has resumed what are clearly personal attacks. They are not statements like mine about my belief that WJBscribe has ignored Wikipedia's rules. Yet no one has disciplined Sanchez. It would seem that neutrality isn't really neutral, is it? 24.18.130.89 06:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Who is to say that WJBscribe is "well meaning," and even if he is "well meaning," what does it matter if he is breaking Wikipedia's rules? WJBscribe is an administrator, and should be expected to know the rules. Since when is it a "personal attack" to call out an administrator here? Does being a Wikipedia administrator entitle you to special consideration and/or immunity from criticism? 24.18.130.89 06:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * WJBscribe is only trying to keep this conflict under control, and has violated no Wikipedia rules in doing so. Yet it seems you have automatically assumed bad faith and continually criticized him. Administrators are certainly not immune to criticism, but you need to remain civil at all times, even when voicing your dissatisfaction.  K r  i  m  p  e  t  07:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * So, it is uncivil to give me opinion that an administrator has violated Wikipedia's rules? You do not know what WJBscribe is trying to do. This is your opinion. Yes, I have continually criticized what I believe is his misconduct. Are administrators at Wikipedia immune from criticism? Is all criticism defined as "uncivil?" It would certainly seem as if there is a circling-the-wagons mentality at work here. God forbid that perhaps WJBscribe has in fact ignored Wikipedia's rules pertaining to neutrality, consensus, and so forth. Who would ever know? Truthjusticeamericanway 07:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * By the way, I consider your harsh warning a violating of Wikipedia's civility rule. Are you bound by that rule, or does that only apply to non-adminisrators? Truthjusticeamericanway 07:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You are bordering on disruption to make a point. The exact verbiage is not what I was talking about, but rather your continued incivil, aggressive tone towards WJBscribe: and now me, it seems. Wikipedia is a community project, and only works when members of the community work together in a civil manner.  K r  i  m  p  e  t  08:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * My very first communication from you was to say that "this will be your only warning." That was VERY uncivil. And now, rather than respond constructively, you have resorted to yet more threats. Please tell me what, if any, of Wikipedia's rules apply to administrators. Thank you. Truthjusticeamericanway 08:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Bleep status
We conducted a straw poll on the OR in the article, 7 editors agree that it's OR, 1 disagrees and 2 abstain.

Out of 19 identified instances of OR, zero sources have been found for the current content, and 6 sources have been found that do not support the content as written, so they should probably be removed until that content is rewritten per source.

This is the status eight days after the article was protected, and the OR identified and placed on a discussion page for possible sourcing. What should be done now? Is 7/1/2 consensus, or should we move to mediation? Thanks! Dreadstar †  19:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, yes, it looks like a pretty clear consensus has been reached. I've unprotected it; good job! =)  K r  i  m  p  e  t  19:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you Krimpet! Now I can get drunk and lie down..!  Dreadstar  †  19:19, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Krimpet, I was searching for a page on a music artist I've known now for a while, DJ Particle. I was about to make an entry, but I was notified that you had deleted it due to Self-Promotion. I suggest a Re-Wording if it sounded like an advertisement or, to make it a Biography-style entry. If you could let me be aware of what your protocol was in doing so, i'd greatly appreciate it.

Tim Donaghy
I wonder what is the purpose in the article mentioning that he has four daughters. All that does is invite trouble. This guy is in enough hot water as it is. His family doesn't need to be dragged into it. I just bring this up to you because you're semi-protecting the page. Baseball Bugs 06:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I have no knowledge of this controversy; I only semi-protected the page due to the vandalism brought to my attention through RFPP. You may wish to consult our biographies of living persons policy for relevant information.  K r  i  m  p  e  t  06:11, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The article makes no mention of how to deal with children, but it does state a "presumption of privacy". Unless the kids are somehow involved in (as opposed to merely "touched by") the scandal, the way I see it that info should not be there. But I won't get into an edit war over it, I'll just delete it once and see what happens. Baseball Bugs 06:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Sunday!!! SUNDAY!!! SUNDAY!!!
Best AfD close evar. Caknuck 05:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * *snerk* - that's just hilarious! :) - A l is o n  ☺ 02:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)