User talk:Franamax/Test essay

Ideas
Good start. :) I'm hurrying this morning, so my notes may be briefer than usual (for me). Please let me know if I'm unclear.
 * "If you avoid plagiarising, you will almost never run the risk of making a copyright violation."

I quite like this, but I think it needs expansion to clarify that you can run into serious problems by overusing quotations...maybe by pointing down to the "Quote directly section", which says, "Contrast this too with the requirements of copyright, where you can't always quote long pieces of text." (A link to WP:NFC would be helpful, I think.)
 * "Free (libre) works"

This text is a bit out of date. the proposal has passed. I'm not sure specifically how the wording will need to change to reflect that, but will try to give feedback later, if somebody else doesn't address it first.
 * "Semi-free" works"

I know that you don't want to go into copyright matters overmuch in this, but might you note that misusing these sources is a copyright problem?
 * "Sometimes you may have missed that little technicality that prevents the supposedly "free" source from being used here."

I very much like that. :)
 * "Read and reword"

I would suggest rereading the sources after drafting the text to avoid unconscious plagiarism. People often plagiarize without realizing it by not recalling what text was original. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:07, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments. So the CC-BY license incorporation went through? That's great news. I'll have to track it down. I haven't seen the GFDL notice at the bottom of the edit screen change or anything. I would have expected a banner notice or something, did I miss it? Franamax (talk) 19:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No, the vote was passed, but the full implementation is up for June. I think it's a good idea to note it, though, since as I understand it material that is licensed by GFDL only (except on massive multiauthor sites like Wikipedia itself) can't be used from November 2008 onward. (ala Transition to Creative Commons licensing) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 19:30, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was reading some of that, looks a little messy, CC-BY is in but GFDL-only is out. I guess it's a board-level thing, so I'm sure it will be properly rolled out. Even though change is good (and this specific change is good), I do so hate change - realigning all those brain cells is difficult. And a retroactive date too, this should be fun...
 * Thanks for the update on timing, I kinda thought it was June, but I wasn't sure if I'd confused that with the Google Books settlement hearing (which I believe the FTC is now complaining about). Franamax (talk) 20:28, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Avoiding Plagiarism to Avoid Copyright Violations
I like this essay. This idea that plagiarism can help avoid copyright violations should be expanded. I think avoiding plagiarism is the first step in avoiding copyright violations. Once you have put quotation marks around all copied text, inserted "following the approach/structure of" as necessary, added "as cited in" to borrowed citations, and so on; then, and only then, can you start talking about whether the source is used in accordance to the given licenses. We cannot discuss fair use unless it is used and not stolen. I would structure this essay in a way that tries to discuss plagiarism first independently of copyright issues (current section names are in parenthesis):
 * 1) Defining plagiarism
 * 2) How to avoid plagiarism
 * 3) When borrowing ideas and facts (Read and reword)
 * 4) When borrowing phrasing
 * 5) * Quoting material. (Quote directly)
 * 6) * Incorporating material. (Incorporate and attribute)
 * 7) When borrowing a general approach / structure
 * 8) When borrowing a citation
 * 9) Licensing issues
 * 10) Copyright
 * 11) Free sources (as now)

Once we have defined the terms, and distinguished between incorporating and quoting, we can discuss what is allowed and how much quoting is excessive. CopoCop (talk) 23:42, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Those are good points and I'll think about them (except maybe the "borrowing" bit, to me when you borrow something you give it back eventually, I call it "copying". And I may be biased by my childhood reading of The Borrowers and my experience with "friends" who have "borrowed" money from me :)
 * The main problem I see with your suggestions is the conflict with two of my original aims in writing this: avoid as much as possible mentioning the copyright side of things, it's handled elsewhere and the confusion between plagio and copyvio has vexed almost every discussion; and even more, the need to keep it short, short, short - so that people might actually try to read it. By that I mean the people who will need the advice most, which often are the people not given to reading long pages of text. After all, anything I've written here is already found on this wiki in a hundred places, assuming you have the patience to read a hundred endless pages...
 * I still need to add something about GFDL/wiki-copying too I think, then I'll have to try to shorten it again. But you outline a good structure for the essay, and I hadn't even thought about copying approach/structure and citations. Maybe we're eventually going to need another essay called "How to restate other people's text" - or maybe that's what this essay is supposed to be in the first place! Lots to think about... Franamax (talk) 04:05, 25 May 2009 (UTC)