User talk:Fraterhh

Very well, Frater HH -- now we're getting somewhere. I agree with your adding the translation of name "Sprengel" and its significance.

I did send a message to Mr. Zink regarding this controversy, but he has not answered. But it seems my advice to have someone in his group actually register with Wikipedia, instead of posting anonymous edits, was taken to heart.

If you like, you can e-mail me at: maxx58585@yahoo.com and we can discuss this matter fully.

What I still take issue with you over are the following edits:

"However, after becoming a member of the Golden Dawn, S.L. Macgregor Mathers resigned from Freemasonry." This is a parenthetical comment at best, unless you have it in mind to discount Freemasonry as an influence on the GD, which is ridiculous. I don't think Mathers IMMEDIATELY resigned from the UGLE, which is what you seem to be implying here. I don't even think it's worth mentioning, but if you do you should attach a time frame to it -- for example, after he moved to Paris. What reference do you have that shows if and when he resigned from the Grand Lodge and/or the SRIA? (I've never found any, but this could be checked in Masonic records.) Maybe he just stopped paying his dues and went inactive. What it seems you're doing here is a backhanded slap at Masonry, trying to separate the GD from its genuine Masonic roots, and I've never understood why you guys are so obsessed with doing that, except possibly due to your leader's Catholic sympathies.

"The Cipher Manuscripts and other documents called the Z documents provide the basis of the Golden Dawn tradition, and define the structure of Golden Dawn ritual." This is "biased POV" in the language of Wikipedia. In other words, it's what YOUR Order purports to believe, but it is not in any way universally accepted. No reputable, published GD scholar recognizes the Z Documents as being of the same foundational nature as the Cipher. Neither Gilbert nor Howe has ever advanced this idea. Not even Cicero, who sticks to a very traditional GD form, will back you guys on this one. In his "The Essential Golden Dawn', there is a whole chapter on the Cipher, which begins, "No history of the Golden Dawn can be given without some reference to the Cipher Manuscript -- the enigmatic document upon which the rituals and the knowledge lectures of the Golden Dan are based." Period. The Z Docs are mentioned in passing only twice, and not as a fundamental basis of the GD. What you're trying to do with this one is de-legitimize any group  as being "not real Golden Dawn" if they don't revere Mathers and the Z Docs like you do. In other words, it's a reflection of an exclusively biased POV, and has no place in a general encyclopedia article.

What the Z Docs really are is an exegesis by Mathers of the original system of the Cipher. The Z Docs are NOT in any way "original materials" in the way the Ciphers are, because the Ciphers pre-dated the establishment of the original Isis-Urania Temple No. 3, whereas the Z Docs were created AFTER it's establishment. They are Mathers' interpretation of the Ciphers, but they are in no way the ONLY possible interpretation. Even if you buy into the mythology given by Westcott of Fraulien Sprengel and the "German Rosicrucians", as your group does, your claim doesn't stand up. Part of that mythology (specifically mentioned in the Sprengel letters) is the existence of a GD Temple PRIOR to the one created by Westcott and Mathers, referred to as "Hermanubis Temple No. 2". This being the case, then a GD Lodge was in fact formed BEFORE the Z Documents were written by Mathers, even before Mathers had ever heard of the Golden Dawn! Logically, therefore, the Z Docs are not "foundational documents", since a GD Temple (recognized by Sprengel) was founded before they existed!

Be aware I'll continue to keep eliminating this edit to the article, and I'll make my case to the Wikipedia Mediation Cabal if I have to. I expect to hear from them in three days. If you want to describe the Z Documents as part of Mathers' work to refine and develop the Cipher materials into a workable form, I'll go along with that, but not with any idea that they are universally accepted as foundational. That is YOUR group's opinion only, not one shared generally by the rest of the Golden Dawn community, and you have no right to present it as if it is.

"(This should not, however, detract from the importance of the Cipher Manuscripts.)" Expressions like this are OPINIONS, not statements of fact. The preceding paragraph that I wrote states the FACTS: "The actual material itself described in the Manuscript is of known origins. Hermeticism, Alchemy, Qabalah, Astrology and Tarot were certainly not unknown to 19th century scholars of the Magical arts; the Cipher is a compendium of previously known Magical traditions. The basic structure of the rituals and the names of the Grades are based on those of the S.R.I.A." The appending of an OPINION on "importance" is yet again, a biased POV.

" Many Golden Dawn scholars believe that Mathers received his materials from the "Secret Chiefs" connected to his German Rosicrucian predecessors..." You changed "some" to "many", and added the appellation "scholars" to what I wrote. I challenge you to find ANY reputable scholar of GD history who has EVER given any credence to Mathers' claims of contacts with these "Secret Chief" representatives. Howe does not, nor does Gilbert, nor Kuntz, nor Runyon, nor King, nor Cicero. They don't even claim that these "Secret Chiefs" existed at all! So who are these "many scholars"? The only "scholars" claiming this are those who belong to groups who have a religious faith in their actual existence, such as your group and Mr. Griffin's.

"Some believe that S.L. Macgregor Mathers and his wife Moina invoked the materials, and he refined and developed them, as he had with the Cipher Manuscripts." You replaced my descriptor of "channeled" with "invoked." That is non-sequitur. "Invoking" is something you do with a spirit or deity, not with textural material. "Channeling" is the proper term for receiving raw material in a trance state from a spiritual source, which is what she (and you claim also Mathers himself too, but I won't quibble about that point) actually did. It's unfortunate that "channeling" has acquired a somewhat touchy-feely "New Age" connotation, but it's the proper descriptive term.

Adding Ithell Colquhoun's book to the references was a good idea, as it's certainly influential. But adding your own website link, "Truth About the Cipher Manuscripts", to the list of actual published BOOKS on the subject is, once again, promoting a biased POV. You already have a link to your "Golden Dawn Research Center" in the article, and someone can find that essay and others promoting your POV on your website. But it has no standing to be included as a primary reference in a general encyclopedia article.

I will be making the above factual corrections to the article, and I hope you will contact me soon to discuss these matters so we can come to a fraternal solution. Be aware that refusing to even try to discuss these issues between us will not put you in a good light with Wikipedia's Mediators.

Note: this message has been posted to Fraterhh's talk page, and also to the "Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn" talk page.

- Joseph Max [Jmax555]