User talk:Frecklefoot/ComputerAndVideoGamesCleanup

Computer and video games cleanup
Thanks for responding to my query on the discussion page. Since you obviously have a massive amount of experience with video games, do you have time to help me on the actual computer and video games article? I'm going to start by formulating a much better definition for computer and video games (the opening is redundant right now). I was thinking something like "Computer and video games, formally referred to as interactive entertainment, are recreational devices operated by silicon chip circuitry." However, I'm not the expert that you are, and so I don't know if "recreational devices operated by silicon chip circuitry" is too broad or too narrow for the full scope of computer and video games. Perhaps you could help me formulate a proper definition? Help would be most welcome. Thanks! --Tristam 23:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you're referring to. Are you referring to a new article for electronic game or rewriting the computer and video games article?  If it's the former, just word it how you think best and post it.  It'll gradually get better over time as people contribute to it.  You could even post a link to it on the Project for some community involvement.


 * Or are you suggesting the latter? Personally, I think "Computer and video games, formally referred to as interactive entertainment, are recreational devices operated by silicon chip circuitry" is horrible.  But I was a proponent of breaking up the computer and video games article into separate articles (one for video games, which is "any type of game that uses a video display as a primary form of output") which would encompass computer and console games (which are typically called just "video games" today) and other types of video-output games (e.g. arcade games, handheld games, etc.).  Therefore, the term "video game" would be a superset of "computer game" and "console game", as it should be.  I think the whole article computer and video games, besides horribly violating Wikipedia naming standards, is just a POS article.  I even rewrote it according to my discussion above (after getting consensus from the project), but it was reverted, so I gave up.


 * But I digress. I think electronic game should have an article separate from the computer and video games article.  If I inferred anything else in my post, I apologize. &mdash; Frecklefoot | Talk 14:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry I took so long to reply to this. I was, in fact, suggesting the latter: I wanted a broad definition because computer and video games is a broad subject. I'm not sure I understand exactly what you wanted to break the article up into; you say "one for video games" and don't give a number two. I do agree that the naming is bad, and electronic game definitely needs its own article.


 * I'm unsure which is a subset to which: computer games or video games? I think the definition of computer games is ambiguous. When we see "computer" we think of our laptop or desktop PC. Of course, a computer is far broader than that and can be many more things. So is a computer game a personal computer game or is it any game played on any computer (if the latter were the case, would computer game not be synonymous with electronic game)? In the end, a video game is a game played on a computer; the condition being, as you point out, that it uses video display as a primary form of output. Personal computer games would thus qualify as video games, because the monitor is the video display. I just wonder should we separate computer game from personal computer game.


 * Here's a definition of electronic games, taken straight from the newest edition of Funk & Wagnall's encyclopedia: "GAMES, ELECTRONIC, recreational and social activities requiring an electrical device controlled by one or more microprocessor chips." The same article states that "the games usually involve a computer and a software program, or an electronic game system and an insertable medium." And we both know the condition for a game being a video game. If we accept all of this, this is how the hierarchy works:


 * Electronic games -> computer games (assuming this means games played on any computer) -> video games (includes console games, personal computer games, arcade games, plug-and-play TV games, handheld games, etc.)


 * I'm interested in revamping this whole article. I've got four books that may be excellent references: The Video Game Theory Reader, Tomb Raiders & Space Invaders: Videogame Forms & Contexts, Gaming Essays on Algorithmic Culture, and The Medium of the Video Game. Plus, I have full access to excellent databases such as LexisNexis Academic and Academic Search Premier. Obviously, it would be ideal to get naming issues sorted first. You being an expert, I hope you're just as interested as I am: two voices carry more weight than one, so we could bring up the naming issues with the CVG Wikiproject. --Tristam 06:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Tristam, your reasoning is sound, and I would like to get this heirarchy resolved, since I brought it up so long ago and it never went anywhere. But the terminilogy turns a lot of people off.  Many want to keep calling console games "video games" and vehemently deny that any computer game (a game that is played on a personal computer) could be a "video game," though most are, according to the definion.  Another problem is that the industry calls console games "video games" and games played on personal computers "computer games".  It's a lot to sort out, and a lot of biases to overcome, but I'm glad someone else sees things the way I do.  I hope we can make headway on this issue.  What do you suggest we do first? &mdash; Frecklefoot | Talk 01:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your interest and I'm glad to have you aboard! As I said, my initial thoughts are to bring this to the CVG WikiProject, though it sounds your previous attempt didn't end well. Based on the hierarchy above, it appears that electronic games and computer games are one and the same (correct me if I'm wrong though). If that's the case, computer game should probably redirect to electronic game. It would seem prudent to add an "other article" template at the top, something like "'Computer game' redirects here. For information about personal computer games, see personal computer game." I think this falls into the argument of accuracy versus popularity: as you point out, even the VG industry calls games played on PCs "computer games."


 * Now let us look at Naming, an official policy at Wikipedia. Here, we can see that Computer and video games immediately violates the general convention "prefer singular nouns:" "in general, only create page titles that are in the singular, unless that noun is always in a plural form in English (such as scissors or trousers)." However, the singular "Computer or video game" is ridiculously awkward, another good reason for separating the two terms. On the other hand, convention dictates that: "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. Another way to summarize the overall principle of Wikipedia's naming conventions: Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists." Our proposal may fail this guideline; however, personal computer game has its own article! This is important because the "Use of 'and'" rule states: "Sometimes two or more closely-related or complementary concepts are most sensibly discussed on a common page rather than a page each." Since personal computer game is already separated as its own article, and we both know that in common usage "computer game" refers to a PC game, should "computer game" not redirect to "personal computer game" instead of computer and video games? If that's the case, then the "computer and" should be truncated from "video games," which should in turn be made singular. In the end, electronic game should cover any electronic game (including such games as Ralph Baer's Simon), video game should cover any electronic game that uses a video display as the primary form of output, and personal computer game (of which "computer game" would redirect to) should cover the nuances of PC games. I think that these arguments are logically sound, but of course I would like more input from you before we propose a drastic name change. --Tristam 06:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I was crafting a more eloquent response, but I got pulled off onto other things. Let me respond less eloquently here (without all the charts and graphs I crafted).  This response is woefully overdue, and for that, I apologize.  Especially since this is a topic I am so concerned about.


 * First, no, I don't think electronic game and computer game are one in the same. I think that computer game is a sub-category of video game, which itself is a sub-category of electronic game (glad you brought it up, it had never occured to me that video game was a type of electronic game).  Rationale: not all electronic games used (or use) any type of computer chips.  Some early ones strictly used analog circuits.


 * However, there are a great many electronic games today that use computer chips, but don't use video displays (the handheld game Merlin, for example, just had buttons that lit up). Since they use computer chips, should they be considered computer games?  I think not.  While they do use computer technology, I think the computer game category should be reserved for games that use video displays.  If we don't, it will just muddy the waters trying to define what a computer game is.


 * But a computer game is not always a personal computer game: the earliest computer games were run on mainframes. Some computer games today may not be run on off-the-shelf personal computers.  So personal computer game should be a sub-category of computer game.


 * For simplicity, the heirarchy should look something like this:


 * The chart doesn't include many other types of games that fall under the umbrella of video game, such as handheld game and arcade game, but you get the idea.


 * Here's what I came up with the first time I tried to bring this up:




 * I think it's mostly accurate still, but now I'd nix the "consumer video games" and add electronic games as the super-category to them all.


 * Well, I've rambled on long enough. What are your thoughts regarding this? &mdash; Frecklefoot | Talk 20:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)