User talk:Freoh/Archive 1

August 2022
Your recent editing history at Democracy shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

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 * What do you mean? I'm not "changing content" at all, just adding maintenance tags. I've been starting multiple discussions in Talk:Democracy, but people are drive-by de-tagging rather than discussing on the talk page. What would you recommend I do? This template is unhelpful, as I'm already using the talk page and WP:BRD with no success. Freoh (talk) 10:23, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion
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December 2022
There is a discussion of your edits on Noticeboard currently taking place. . ErnestKrause (talk) 16:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

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 * Freoh (talk) 14:09, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

A better source than the U.S. Congress?
I kinda smiled when I saw you wanted a better source for the last statement in the Preamble section of the Constitution article. Honestly, I'm not thrilled with this paragraph. I didn't like the original assertions along these lines - especially the amount of attention that was paid to not much. But I worked them in because it is an objective account of what the Congress's constitutional research team has to say and I hoped to satisfy the original editor(s). So I'm genuinely curious as to what you believe the weakness is here. What's genuine is I'm only interested in learning more because I believe it'll serve me wel elsewhere. Thanks. Allreet (talk) 19:53, 16 January 2023 (UTC)


 * P.S. I'm in the process of adding a little more and in fine tuning the wording, but nothing major. Just to let you know. Allreet (talk) 19:55, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I added that tag because the source has a conflict of interest. If you want to say that the Preamble is considered an important part the nation's constitutional dialogue by promoting insight into the nature of America's governmental system, then that's an opinion that should be attributed, ideally to an independent source.     &mdash;&hairsp; Freoh 20:49, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I just saw that this was your rationale when I viewed the template in edit mode. I get it, though I have faith in the scholars who serve both sides of the aisle, even if they favor a status quo more in their interest than "we, the people's". That said, I try not to rely on single sources when issues are more complex, and fortunately in this case sources abound so it was no problem finding one that closely concurs. Meanwhile, I've left your template intact, and if it still stands in another day or two, I'll supplement the text with an additional source and/or rewrite. And thanks for the reply - it serves the purpose I mentioned. Allreet (talk) 01:17, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think that the National Constitution Center is much better, given that it was created by the U.S. Congress.     &mdash;&hairsp; Freoh 01:23, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

February 2023
[Here https://undsci.berkeley.edu/understanding-science-101/what-is-science/science-aims-to-explain-and-understand/] is a source for the role of institutions, especially in science. I am replying privately because I am trying not to sound insulting to you. The sources you seek are probably in the field of situated cognition but you would have to seek them in a discreet way, so as not to insult anyone. Motivation is a tough field to study. I find that the psychological experiment designs are devious, and thus questionable. So I stay away from the subject. --Ancheta Wis   (talk  &#124; contribs) 07:13, 9 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree that modern science is heavily influenced by modern institutions, but I don't think that means that scientific reasoning didn't exist before these institutions. I'm trying to stick to information explicitly stated in sources, which put the origins of science dozens of millennia ago.     &mdash;&hairsp; Freoh 11:19, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Review of David Graeber's last book
I thought you might be interested in the NY Times review of David Graeber's, Pirate Enlightenment: Or the Real Libertalia. It's dated January 24, but appeared in this past Sunday's Book Review. Allreet (talk) 21:56, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Use experience as a tool
I understand that as a new and inexperienced editor you want to make large, meaningful changes to important articles, but I don't think your approach will have any success. As a new editor, you lack a lot of important experience in copy-editing articles, use of sources, and leading/starting discussions with wide participation. I say this not to discourage you, but rather to encourage you to work alongside experienced editors in the topic areas you want to work in to draft RFCs before you launch them. If I were you, before starting the U.S. Constitution RFC I would have asked editors that have written featured articles in the topic area (s) as well as in the most active relevant WikiProjects (such as Politics) for help in the wording of the RFC. Doing so will help you make better proposals. In any case, hope you enjoy the rest of the week ^u^ — Ixtal ( T / C ) &#8258; Non nobis solum. 14:47, 2 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks, yeah, in retrospect I should have worded it differently (and limited its scope more). I will keep this in mind for future RfCs. I was trying to follow the instructions, so maybe you should edit those with your suggestions.     &mdash;&hairsp; Freoh 01:16, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

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March 2023
Hi, I'm hoping we can identify some common understanding. Right now, I'm off to the pool, so I may not respond right away. We also walk to the lake everyday. As you may have guessed, I have a science background (due to the US national emphasis in 1957). Is there something I can do? --Ancheta Wis   (talk  &#124; contribs) 15:14, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

One of the benefits I got from trying to answer you was realizing an application of skolemization could have answered a potential issue. But that potential answer really belonged on stackoverflow or elsewhere, not on a WP page. Lambda calculus can be a very high-level design language (when expressed in something like Haskell). But there is no one for me to talk to in those languages. I am currently reading Bartosz Milewski (2019) Category Theory for Programmers. --Ancheta Wis   (talk  &#124; contribs) 16:00, 4 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I am familiar with lambda calculus, but I still do not see its relevance to our discussion at Talk:Science. I think that your communication style involves a lot of analogies that I am having trouble following, and I think it would be helpful if you could be more direct. Which aspect of Wikipedia's neutrality policy do you think I am violating? Is there any information that I have presented that you find unreliable or explicitly contradicted by other sources? I feel like bringing category theory into this discussion would only lead to improper synthesis.     &mdash;&hairsp; Freoh 13:21, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for responding. I am trying to find common ground, so that we might reach common understanding. I have tried different formulations, ranging from very concrete to very abstract (e.g.,p→q), but I observe that you seem not to care about my (or other editors') formulations, except when they contain a keyword: neutrality.
 * It takes work for me to formulate responses, about which you seem not to care, except as they pertain to an agenda. If the goal is to attack a position, then I can understand the tactic. However if the goal is to understand my response, then we have a chance to attain a common understanding. OK?
 * Right now it appears to me that you see a p→q formulation as not relevant. However if cause→effect is meaningful, might you agree that the formulation could be relevant?
 * -- Ancheta Wis   (talk  &#124; contribs) 14:55, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I am trying to understand cause and effect you refer to. Are you talking generally about the evolution of  cognition in humans? Are you saying that  have not provided a good  for the changes that I want to make? I tried to ask you earlier what the variables p and q stood for, but your Galileo analogy only confused me further.      &mdash;&hairsp; Freoh 01:10, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If we were to start with situated cognition (5Ws) using our sensory systems first, for immediate survival (pain, heat, proprioception, touch, taste, smell, hearing, sight, ...), we might formulate immediate concepts. Gradually we might posit more distant, i.e., less proximate or dangerous threats/opportunities to our longer-term survival (embodied cognition). Here I take the cue of Francis Crick: he considered the visual system's V1, the primary visual cortex as the simplest pathway for understanding the brain. I should mention that Crick FC (and Koch C) gradually deduced that the claustrum was a basic part for understanding our facility of awareness (see default mode network), before Crick's death (these are not random facts; researchers have been able to switch a human's consciousness on/off by probing the claustrum).
 * The labyrinth was Galileo's simile for the bewilderment of the scientific researcher trying to solve some conundrum.
 * Attacking the conundrum from another direction, one might use abstract parameters p, q, r, s, ... in place of the senses mentioned above. I was hoping you might agree that ((p→q)→r)→s constitute a form with arguments p→q (a functional form), nested in another functional form; the forms might then moot linguistic sentences, for formulating hypotheses, which could then be compared with data. C.S. Peirce has found a solution ((p→q)→p)→p to the pqrs form. Peirce began his research process with categories. I didn't mean to imply that Milewski's book is part of my argument; I mentioned it as my reading. For example Needham's Science and Civilisation in China was formative for me in 1976, and I sometimes fall back on it (2023).
 * My critique about affirming the consequent was about any premature fixation of meaning to an arbitrary part of a linguistic form. More work would have to be done, first. --Ancheta Wis   (talk  &#124; contribs) 07:41, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What arbitrary part of a linguistic form are you referring to? My arguments have been more focused on archaeology and anthropology rather than linguistics. Are you saying that I am affirming the consequent? If so, what is the conditional statement if p then q that I am invalidly converting into if q then p?     &mdash;&hairsp; Freoh 13:19, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for responding. We are exploring a causal map. I believe that we are finally communicating based on common ground. So if the causal map is (Gärdenfors,Lombard) → (hominin/predator tracking)) [call this '(p→q)'], I would, based on my reading of Gärdenfors & Lombard, say their reasoning is valid. -- Ancheta Wis    (talk  &#124; contribs) 13:49, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Busy lately
I see that a few different editors have tried to contact me lately. I have been unexpectedly busy in real life, and I will try to respond within the next few days. &emsp;&mdash;&hairsp; Freoh 21:39, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 3 July 2023
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Speedy deletion nomination of Barbenheimer


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Feedback request: All RFCs request for comment
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ANI
There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 02:32, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The above ANI notice has now closed Freoh. Going ahead with Drmies' advise is prudent. I will be very blunt in saying that in case a report lands at ANI in your name for the same reasons, it would be very hard to avoid a block. Please do not go down that path. Thank you, Lourdes  06:49, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Could you be more specific about which same reasons you refer to? Sending WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE warnings? Proposing editing restrictions? Commenting at Talk:Constitution of the United States? People in that thread seemed upset about all of these, so I would like to know what you think is a blockable offense and if you are effectively banning me from a particular area of Wikipedia. &emsp;&mdash;&hairsp; Freoh 13:31, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Freoh,
 * I expect it's confusing for you that you didn't get clarification here, and I think you've consistently gotten vague feedback followed by refusal to clarify (eg, diff – although I suppose no one is obligated to clarify things for you.) I actually think your behaviour is less problematic than many other editors' behaviour that are more generally accepted by the community. I really value your contributions to the encyclopedia, and I would be very disappointed if these rather vague threats materialised into sanctions that prevented you from helping out.So I'd like to help interpret other editors' concerns (and I may not be able to do this well, though I did follow the ANI): I would say that your biggest risk of retribution is with your first two guesses about WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE and generally with attempts to correct other editors' behaviour. From what I can tell, it's not usually possible to call out poor behaviour from well-established editors, or from groups of editors defending entrenched systemic biases, without just getting locked out. (I'm aware that this can mean compromising a moral position for pragmatic reasons, and I respect you if you wouldn't or couldn't do that even on the internet! I just think you'll get banned eventually, and I would be sad about that.) I hope this helps, or at least isn't a terribly offensive suggestion. Larataguera (talk) 22:23, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ...and don't feel obligated to reply to this. Last time I said something on your talk page, your response was used against you at ANI and I felt bad about it. Larataguera (talk) 23:13, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the message, ! Sorry for not responding sooner; after Davey2010 tried to ban me for making only 36% of my edits to mainspace, I have been trying to limit myself to a single non-mainspace edit per day, so I waited to reply here. I agree that Wikipedia has serious problems with well-established editors getting a free pass on poor conduct, and it frustrates me that editors making personal attacks tends to upset people more than the personal attacks themselves. It seems that my only recourse is to spend years becoming a well-established editor myself, but I wish that Wikipedia guidelines were better at documenting this hierarchy. In my view, it weakens Wikipedia's third and fourth pillars to hold administrators to a lower standard of conduct. I see far too many interactions where a newcomer behaves better than an administrator but ends up getting indefinitely blocked. &emsp;&mdash;&hairsp; Freoh 13:30, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

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July 2023
Do not refactor my comments at 's Talk page, and if I'd wanted to ping the editor I would have.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:36, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I interpreted your comments as personal attacks, and Wikipedia policy permits their removal. It is good practice to notify when discussing their conduct, rather than talking about them behind their back. &emsp;&mdash;&hairsp; Freoh 16:52, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Your "interpretation" is nonsense, and it's not up to you whom I ping and whom I don't. Just stay out of it.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:54, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

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Happy Holidays
Merry Christmas, Freoh! Have a prosperous new year! InfiniteNexus (talk) 07:05, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

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