User talk:Friviere/archive 1

Esteban Terradas
Hi and welcome to the English wikipedia :)

I found your article on Esteban Terradas i Illa and have given it a bit of rewrite (please see the talk page if you want to see why). I think it could still do with a bit more work, especially since I am worried that I may have removed some information from it while trying to make it read better, but it looks like it is the start of what will eventually be an excellent article! VivaEmilyDavies 23:57, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Quick note on Catalan/Catalonia and NPOV
Hi again, thanks for your reply! I can see you are proud of your Catalan heritage :) However, be careful about the way you refer to Catalonia, or you may be accused of "POV-pushing". A good model to use is how en.WP refers to Scotland and Scottish people, another historically independent country, now largely autonomous, with its own cultural heritage. It's okay to say "X was a Scottish/Catalan mathematician" even though he was actually born in, and a citizen of, the United Kingdom/Spain. (It's a bit more complicated with "Basque" because you need to mention whether the person was French-born or Spanish-born or living at time of Basque independence). However, it's not a good idea to talk about Catalonia as if it is an independent country - that might be regarded as "Catalan-nationalist POV-pushing". For example:


 * Bad: He worked in his native Catalonia and also in Spain.
 * Good: He worked in his native Catalonia and also elsewhere in Spain.

Here, the "bad" example suggests that Catalonia is not in Spain.


 * Bad: He was born in Barcelona, Catalonia and died in Madrid, Spain
 * Good: He was born in Barcelona, Catalonia and died in Madrid
 * Also good but unnecessary: He was born in Barcelona, Catalonia and died in Madrid, Madrid Province

The "bad" example seems to make "Catalonia" and "Spain" equivalent political units. (Note that "Madrid" is a city so widely known that I think it's acceptable just to say "Madrid" rather than "Madrid, Spain" - similarly it's okay just to say "London" rather than "London, UK" or "London, England".)

Hope that this helps :)

Also, I don't know how this works in the Catalan WP, but be careful with sectional subdivision. Although in English newspapers and magazines, articles are often split up with the section title only refering to the first sentence or two of the next section, in WP and most encyclopedias sections are all on the same subject. Have a quick look at William Shakespeare and Tony Blair for example. If you want to break down a biography into sections you really need to do it in two steps: (1) Order the part of the biography after the introduction into distinct sections. They might deal with different aspects of his life and work (like the Shakespeare article) or they might go in chronological order (like the Tony Blair article) (2) Then give each section a title that refers to the entire section e.g. "Scientific research" or "Involvement in industry" (if you are going to split it up by aspects of life) or alternatively "Early life and education", "First professorship", ..., "Years in Latin America" etc if you are going to split chronologically.

Also, a common mistake you seem to make: in English, we use "on" for an exact date (on 3 March 1678), but "in" for a less exact one (in March 1678, in 1678). You also make mistakes with "drive" and "projected" - "projected" actually means "threw" or "thrown" (consider the word projectile). "Drive" is a rather complicated word (it has several possible meanings), and might it be better to avoid to it. You might want to try words like "lead", "run" or "organize" instead. :)

There are a few things that I don't understand: "turn of plan brick". By turn, do you mean "tower", or is it an architectural term that I hadn't heard of before? Also, do you mean "plan" or "plain"? VivaEmilyDavies 19:57, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Image:Esteban Terradas.jpg
I noticed you tagged this image as Public domain and credited the catalan WP, but the image there - has no source or license. I wondered if you could clear this up. If you have any questions, give me a shout on my talk page. Cheers. Burgundavia 08:47, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * If you wouldn't mind noting the date and the source on the image, that would be great. Also you can sign your name with ~ . Burgundavia 06:58, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

Junipero Serra
Why did you move Junípero Serra to Juniper Serra? Junipero Serra receives 106,000 google hits, Junípero Serra  about 10,000, and Juniper Serra   only 1,900. It seems that either of the Junipero names is much more common, while Juniper might not even be recognized by some readers. Gentgeen 20:19, 8 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia policy is to name an article by the most common name in English. The name in the native language should be mentioned, but the article is at where it will be easiest found in the language in question.  In Serra's case, 40 million English speaking Californians have learned in the fourth grade that Junipero Serra founded the California mission chain.  In the Catalan Wikipedia, the appropiate title would likely be Juniper Serra.

Gaspar de Portolà

 * With regard to Portola, I did a google search, and Portolà is prefered to Portolá about 2:1, so the article should end up at the first name. I'll make the changes in a little bit. Gentgeen 23:09, 9 May 2005 (UTC)


 * The policy in question is at Naming conventions (names and titles), where it states "Most general rule overall: use the most common form of the name used in English" (the emphasis is in the policy page, not added by me). To clairfy, I've moved the article on Gaspar to de Portolà, as that version is correct and does appear more often than the á version.  As far as Serra goes, in english usage Junipero is much more common (50:1) than Juniper.  As Junípero is a correct spanish spelling, and is the most common version used in the English language, the policy states that the article should reside at Junipero or Junípero. Gentgeen 05:41, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Victòria dels Àngels
Hello, please don't change "Victoria de los Angeles" to "Victòria dels Àngels". This singer is known in the English-speaking world under the Spanish name. As a Catalan, you may object to this, but Wikipedia naming principles dictate that we should call things by their most familiar names. Thanks for your understanding. -- Viajero 20:37, 8 May 2005 (UTC)


 * You knew her? Wow! You must have seen her perform many times, no? It is said she was a superb actress. Do you ever get the chance to go the the Liceu these days? I've been to Barcelona several times but not been able to attend an opera there. -- Viajero 21:43, 8 May 2005 (UTC)


 * She was a familly friend, a natural and exceptional person, and participated in many familly events.--Friviere 21:50, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Victòria dels Àngels right spelling
Another point here

The correct writing, as of the Barcelona music school, that honours her memory is Victòria dels Àngels and not Victoria de los Angeles. I understand there may be some confussion for non accented language speakers.

References to prove that are:
 * http://www.xtec.es/centres/a8040643/victoria.htm Music School Victòria dels Àngels

If that's not enought, please look at her authorised biografies:


 * http://www.upf.edu/periodis/Noticies04-05/11-04-05.htm Pompeu Fabra University &#8220;Victòria dels Àngels: memòries de viva veu&#8221;: Victoria dels Àngels biography
 * http://www.arcdebera.com/llibres/V/VICTORIA+DELS+ANGELS+-UNA+VIDA+PEL+CANT+UN+CANT+PER+LA+VIDA-,84-7306-846.htm Another biography

http://web.gc.cuny.edu/BrookCenter/Mompou_Biblio.htm University of New York, Barry S. Brook Center for Music Research and Documentation
 * http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~hugo.z/hs_orch/hs_GranTeatroLiceu.html january 1950 Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg, at Hans Swarowksy's page
 * http://www.ritmes.net/pritmes/rtItem.jsp?hiItemId=124340578&hiEstil=classica&hiItemNom=noticies Online biography
 * http://www.catradio.com/cm/2005123.html Catalan Radio channel emission
 * http://www.vila-seca.org/museus_es.htm Street of the city of Vilaseca Catalonia named in her honour
 * http://www.sport.es/datos/alminuto/comentarios.asp?id=289 Comments on a Spanish newspaper to the football match in which was don a minute of silence in her memory

And many other I can add upon request.

Therefore, both pages should be swaped.--Friviere 14:08, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pic
Hi! You probably wonder how I found you. Well it's simple. I googled myself and found a picture of mine among others in the Catalonia encyclopedia, which was, of course, a copy of wikipedia. When I looked the diff pages in the history of the article Catalonia, I found out that you were the one to put my picture in the article. God bless you. Where are you from? I'm coming down to Catalonia again in 2 weeks or so, so maybe we could meet?! With regards --Dungodung 00:34, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Today I returned from the trip and I wasn't in Girona at all. I went to Lloret, Barcelona and Figueres and today I returned. You asked about the picture. Well, precisely, I was refering to my photograph of a river in Girona (I think it's Onyar). Bye --Dungodung 13:21, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Kingdom of Aragon
Em temo que els links que poses a l'article afegeixen confusió entre la Corona d'Aragó Crown of Aragon i el regne aragonès estricte. D'altra banda, són el tipus de links que atrauen vàndals espanyolistes com mosques. Pensa-t'ho. Jo crec que referenciant la Corona d'Aragó tant a Catalunya com a Aragó és suficient. Cordialment, --Joan sense nick 23:21, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Catalan-language writers

 * Joan ets tú qui has proposat esborrar la categoria?--Friviere 11:54, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Hola. Si, he estat jo, i em sembla que he embolicat la troca... A veure, m'explico: La categoria "Catalan writers" la vaig crear jo mateix. En anar-la omplint de referències, i lligar-la a "Writers by nationality" vaig veure (ho hauria d'haver vist abans!) que a la viqui catalana la categoria és "Escriptors EN català". Crec que així està millor, doncs l'important en la literatura és la llengua. Incloure Joan Fuster o Enric Valor com a escriptors catalans grinyola, i algun altre cop algun valencià ja s'ha rebotat per raons semblants ... Per tant, uns minuts després de crear la categoria, jo mateix la vaig buidar i vaig crear "Catalan language writers" i proposar l'anterior com a CFD.

Això es complica més, ja que en la discussió algú proposa (amb raó) que caldria dir "Catalan-language writers", (jo havia vist les categories a "Writers by language" que no porten el guionet), i algú més proposa que coexisteixin les dues. I ara veig que certament, a la wiqui catalana hi són les dues.

Potser si, que han de ser-hi les dues, però, en l'àmbit internacional, aquesta duplicitat (i caldria encara que algú creés "Valencian writers", "Balearic writers", etc ) només afegeix confusió. Per cert, on col·locaríem Jesús Moncada?.

Que et sembla? --Joan sense nick 01:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * *Jesús Moncada per a mi Mequinensa és Catalunya, i per tan és un escriptor català i en català.--Friviere 15:23, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

No hi ha dubte de que en Moncada pertany a la cultura catalana! Sobre si la Franja és Catalunya, o bé és Aragó, o les dues coses, o bé és només "La Franja", hi ha diverses opinions entre la gent d'allí, que són els qui realment hi tenen a dir. I potser no seria massa pràctic crear una categoria "Escriptors de la Franja". En canvi "Escriptors en català" és clara i indiscutible.

A "escriptors catalans", hi posariem els qui esriuen en català nascuts a Catalunya (amb la possibilitat de desacords sobre si la Franja o la Catalunya Nord són Catalunya o categories separades...) i també a Gil de Biedma, Vázquez Montalban o Juan Marsé. Penso que aquest tres ja estan bé a "Spanish writers", tot i ser catalans, dubto que s'oposessin a ser tinguts per espanyols! En canvi, en un context internacional, que en buscar Ausiàs March trobis quatre categories (Catalan-language writers + escriptors catalans, valencians, balears, ... rossellonesos, de la Franja, algueresos... afegeix confusió, i sembla anar contra la percepció d'una única cultura. Prou feina hi ha a guanyar-nos un lloc al món per a anar-hi dividits, no?

L'altra opció seria dir que tots els dels països de llengua catalana som només catalans. Però, ara com ara, aquesta opció no té el consens necessari, i genera més animadversió que no pas suport, a València. I va contra la diversitat. Cordialment, --Joan sense nick 10:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Catalan negationism
Hola! No pienses que, para las razones expuestas en la pagina "talk" de Catalan negationism y, para harmonizar con otros formas de historical revisionism (por ejemplo, historical revisionism (Japan)), seria mejor intitular la pagina historical revisionism (Catalunya)? Si realmente te parece imprescindible decir "negationism" y no simplemente "historical revisionism", que tal si expondrias tus razones para eso dentro de la pagina, asi que su nombre seria menos un tema de debate? Saludos, Kaliz 13:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

ps: no se k pienses de la pagina historical revisionism y de su relacion a la otra, historical revisionism (political), pero a mi me parece absurda esta pseudo-diferencia, y probablemente el hecho de defensores de un typo o el otro de revisionismo. Seria solo a pensar eso? Pero parece que un usuario vigila esta pagina desde anos para impedir que las dos se juntan...

Paco, aquest article podria ser també una bona referència per a aquesta entrada. Toniher 14:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Hola. Ja que em demanes l'opinió, jo en això penso com Kaliz. D'altra banda, Negacionisme català sona com si els que neguessin alguna cosa fossim els catalans.

Hi ha alguna inexactitud: la Corona d'Aragó no la va abolir Franco, sinó Felip V, pel que jo sé. Penso que el contingut d'aquest article tindria més difusió si s'incorporés, almenys parcialment, dins els articles sobre el franquisme Spain under Franco, per exemple, o a historical revisionism. Eliminaria la referencia al Jiménez Losantos, no cal fer-li publicitat, no?. Jo el canviaria a la categoria Category:History of Catalonia.

Salut! --Joan sense nick 18:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)