User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise/Archive 2


 * Older archive: ../Archive 1

Re: Congratulations
Thanks for the congratulations and for voting! What does all that text mean? --liquidGhoul 13:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, that's the choir from The Frogs. Frogs greeting the hero Dionysus on his journey into the underworld Thought that was somehow befitting the occasion. :-) -- 13:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Cool --liquidGhoul 13:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Gigantic Pink RfA Banner!

 * Thanks for the congratulatory message. :)  ~Kylu (u|t)  20:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

NikosPolitis
Got your message. Thing is, the checkuser request was "inconclusive," and the guy has only made two edits, which is probably why. For now, I'll WP:AGF, but if further evidence comes up, let me know. Mango juice talk 14:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Question
Please check out the newly completed Greek diaspora, and help me with a problem. How many countries should we include in the out of date infobox at Greeks? The first 10, the first 20? --Tēlex 14:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Difficult to say. It's a question of weighing three independent factors of "importance" against each other: (a) absolute numbers, (b) density (numbers relative to size of host country), (c) historical importance/continuity. 2000 in Luxembourg is somehow more impressive than 2000 in Spain. But is 5000 in Turkey more significant than 5000 in Austria? - In any case, the list in the infobox strikes me as ridiculously oversized. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Is it true that Germans are as nationalistic as the rest of eastern Europe? In Greece many people seem to think ότι οι Γερμανοί λιγουρεύονται την Πρωσσία, τη Σιλεσία και την Πομερανία the same way Greeks feel about Constantinople and Northern Epirus, or the same way FYROM feels about Aegean Macedonia. Any truth in this? --Tēlex 15:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, first of all, we Germans wouldn't consider ourselves "Eastern Europeans" :-) But seriously, there certainly is a deal of nationalism in Germany, perhaps rather less than more compared with other European countries, but my impression is it's not strongly focussed on those topics of the lost territories. Those are more a matter of (by now) nostalgic recollection, and an object of private rather than national claims to restitution. There are political organizations representing the eastern refugees (see Federation of Expellees), with traditional ties to the conservative parties. Their current political aims are, at most, directed towards late financial recompense for lost private properties in the eastern countries, or towards gestures of symbolic recognition of their traditional home rights there. One of the principal bones of contention with Czechia recently was the demand for Czechia to repeal the Beneš decrees, which had been the legal basis for the expulsions from Czechoslovakia. Territorial revisionism is absolutely demodé, a topic only for the neo-nazi fringe.


 * I'm myself of part Silesian background, by the way. There's quite a lot of us. I guess the impact of the 1945 expulsions on German society must have been at least as big, in terms of relative numbers of refugees, as that of the 1923 expulsions in Greece. And of course it's more recent by one generation. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * BTW do you think Iran is important enough to be in the infobox. According to the Foreign Ministry The Greek community in Teheran numbers some 80 persons, whose parents found refuge here after the Asia Minor disaster. There is a Greek Orthodox Church, which holds services in Easter week, celebrated by a priest sent out especially by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. . --Tēlex 15:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, hope he/she eventually lands on his/her feet. Politis 15:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Concerning the above messages about 'nationalism', i do also believe that it is demodé to claim land, but the case between Germany-Poland is not the same with the one between Greece-Turkey... I mean, the descendants of the expelled Germans can go and live in Silesia, but the descendants of the Asia Minor Greeks cannot go back to their homeland (and this is not happening because Poland is an EU member... it started prior to 2004). And although the 'ζήτημα των περιουσιών' was not solved (in violation to the treaty of Lausanne, there are a number of other issues, that i guess u are familiar with: 12 miles miritime claims, casus belli, the status of the Ecumenical Patriarch, etc etc. About the overestimations of the numbers of the Greek diaspora.... i do not see an overestimation more ridiculous than in other diasporas. btw, everything in the article is sourced and based on as valid sources such as the United Nations, various censi and the US Department of State. I guess that in some cases there is a confussion referring to the terms: Greek ancestry, Greek citizenship, Greek descendants, Greek speaking (at home or not:p-what a ridiculous question for a census!!!), Greek Orthodox, et cetera. i think that me and Telex did a really good job in including lowest and higher estimates, so as the reader to come to his/her own conclussions (and i hope that such a format will be used in other disporas as well)-Αρκετά 'ευλογίσαμε τα γένια μας':p. Όσο για τον Πάπα (που τυγχάνει να είναι Γερμανός τώρα:)...)... δεν έχει το αλάθητο (το λέω σαν Ελληνορθόδοξος!), γιατί είναι θνητός:p. Αλλά μιας και όλοι ψάχνουν για αξιόπιστες πηγές, μια 'αλάθητη' πηγή γίνεται δεκτή. Σοβαρά τώρα: ας ψάξουν να βρουν μια πηγή ανάλογου βεληνεκούς... αν μπορούν...:) --Hectorian 01:21, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Nikos Politis
Are you sure that User:NikosPolitis is a legit user. I though Nikos Politis was dead ... --Tēlex 16:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I rather doubt he's named after that one... ;-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you
How can I thank you for all your extraordinary efforts to aid me in containing the Rajput vandal? Please accept the Barnstar as a small token of my thanks. Do let me know if there is ever anything I can do to help in any matter. Best regards, ImpuMozhi 19:59, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Iran related articles noticeboard/Incidents
Please watch this page and post your public messages on this page so that everybody may have access to it. Thanks --Aminz 05:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Souliotes
I agree that this sort of article needs to get solid, objective information into it, but these days I'm really not spending any time on WP. I can support you if you add good material, but I'm afraid I don't have time to do library research etc. myself. --Macrakis 23:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Your reports on AIV
I'd recommend reporting it at WP:AN or WP:AN/I instead. It's not simple vandalism and it'll get the attention of more admins that way. --Woohookitty(meow) 11:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well then. I have a page that you might know about. This one. It's for long term vandalism like what you are describing. What concerns me with using AIV is that AIV isn't really a good place to track or alert people in regards to long term vandalism. The long term abuse page is good for that. And you don't have to list every IP. Just list the ranges. I've even had cases where helpful people will add templates to each IP in the range to alert admins about persistant vandals such as this person. --Woohookitty(meow) 11:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll put your alert back onto AIV for now and let someone else judge. --Woohookitty(meow) 11:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd recommend a combination of both. List the username and the IPs he's used at long term abuse and then when he hits again, list the latest IPs at AIV. That's what I'd do. --Woohookitty(meow) 11:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

This is the banned-thanks to Future Perfect at Sunrise user Mywayyy. I would like to explain a few things. First of all I have nothing against FPS, even though, he has treated me unfairly. He should strongly consider removing that PERFECT from his name. Anyway the thing is that there are some articles regarding Greek islands and other cities that this guy constantly keeps adding Turkish names. This is totally unacceptable for two reasons: First there is absolutely no reason for adding those names. There is neither Turkish population or any cultural significance to justify such a thing. For Xanthi article for instance, where there is a Muslim minority i havent changed anything because it is right to have a Turkish name there. The second reason is more serious: This user does not show the same stance when Greek names are removed from Turkish articles. He only cares how to add Turkish names to Greek articles. I have tried to speak to him but he believes he is the god of Wikipedia and can just solve things by accusing me of vandalism. When HE reverts why isnt HE beiing accused of vandalism and its just me?? I dont think that a content dispute should be dealt as vandalism. Then most of Wikipedians would be like the biggest vandals.Regards! Mywayyy88.218.47.184 12:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Mywayyy, are you even reading what I tell you? Nobody is treating the content dispute as vandalism. What's treated as vandalism is your insistence on "solving" the dispute through obstinate revert-warring and block evasion. I've told you several times, I'd be much more flexible about the content if we had a proper discussion going, and so would several other editors, I believe. Promise to stick to the rules, and I'll be the first to advocate a lifting of your ban. Then, and only then, can we start to talk about the content. Easy, isn't it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

And what else should i do FPS??? I revert, you keep reverting. I tried to discuss the matter on various talk pages you know that. Why are my reverts being treated the way they are and not yours?? Dont YOU revert with obsession? You are not fair when you say i try to sovle things via revert-warring. i dont like it believe me i have other things to do. But thats the only thing left for me. I would be very happy to talk to you or anybody else to solve the situation. But when i see the same pages reverted i just cant do anything else but revert once again. Hope you become more fair and appreciate other things i notice and correct like for instance the Aegean Sea--and thats only today. I have contributed to other totally irrelevant with Greece articles and you accuse me, on the page you created specifically for me (thanks for that!), that all i do is revert Turkish names. Lets become more fair for a Perfect Future indeed.Cheers! Mywayyy88.218.47.184 13:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Mywayyy, the difference between us is that you repeatedly broke the 3RR. We others didn't. You then repeatedly evaded your blocks. We others didn't. Therefore, you are now banned. We others are not. People are reverting you simply to uphold order on Wikipedia, even people who agreed with you in parts.
 * The deal is simple. You promise to play by the rules. That means: We'll have a dispute resolution procedure - a period of discussion on some suitable centralised page, with all interested parties involved, perhaps a mediator if anybody insists, and then a straw poll if necessary. During that process, there will be no reverts. After that process, everybody involved will stick to whatever consensus or compromise has emerged. That means that in principle you (as well as I) will have to promise from the outset that we'll be willing to accept a solution different from what we want now, if that should be the outcome. I for one have no problem with that. You will also promise that if for whatever reason you should get blocked again, you will accept the rules and wait your block out like everybody else. If you can abide by this, then I'm sure nobody will have any problems seeing you unblocked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Done; but in my opinion, Mywayyy should remain blocked, because not only he has not been able to respect the rules, but worst, he has hardly made a decent edit in his wikipedian life. If we unblock him, as an editor he would have to be constantly monitored, as it's difficult to immagine he would stop being a frantic pov-pushers, and God knows wikipedia has already enough of them.--Aldux 15:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, to be honest I'm a bit pessimistic too, but we should give him the chance if he responds positively here. In all fairness, I have seen a few decent edits from him - some stuff about macroeconomics or something. And the whole thing about the content should definitely brought to a centralised stable solution in some way. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If i understand correctly, we are talking about a solution that will bring all these stupid reverts to an end, right? a discussion in the end of which we will have agreed when we should include the placenames in different languges, right? well, i am looking forward for such a discussion, though i am not sure that all involved parties will be willing to participate... --Hectorian 16:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, something that should lead to a more-or-less agreed-on set of criteria when and why such names should be included, in both Greece and Turkey-related articles. If we can get at least five or six of the more constant editors to agree on such a thing, it should be possible to make occasional newbies and anons to conform too, even though some level of disturbance must be expected I guess. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Mywayyy
Ok i just saw what you ve written FPS. I agree I wont revert again unless a dispute resolution procedure starts. From my stance, I ll stick to whatever solution is finally presented. That is democracy after all. This should start immediately, let me know please. I believe this process should involve all the Greek islands of Eastern Aegean where this phenomenon is observed plus some cities such as Alexandroupoli, Serres, Kilkis etc. I would like to add a comment to Aldux. I dont think its proper, especially from an Admin to say things such as: 'Mywayyy should remain blocked cause he hasnt done a decent edit in his wikipedian life'. You should know better Aldux. And if you dont know let me tell you that i ve done edits (not so many by your standards but at least some..) regarding various topics and especially aviation topics since im an aerospace engineer and aviation is like my second nature.FPS let me know about the procedure.Mywayyy88.218.47.184 11:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, Mywayyy, I'll contact Aldux and Francis and see what we can do. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd be amenable to an unblock with the following conditions:


 * He considers himself under the 0RR, e.g. no reverts. &mdash; any revert will result in the resumption of his block.
 * There is an RfC in place where all involved parties can discuss a naming policy for Greek islands of the Eastern Aegean.


 * - FrancisTyers · 11:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me - only that I think the RfC-or-whatever-kind-of-venue-we-choose should also include the Turkish side, as some editors have a strong sense of reciprocity here. Do you think we ought to consult Theresa Knott too, as it was she that actually did the ban? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, we should certainly include the Turkish side. Without question. And yes, contact Theresa, ask her to remove it. But only after we get the RfC going. - FrancisTyers · 11:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not understand why the Turkish appelations (or rather Greek name that are Turkified) should be included, even as co-equivalent in the opening line, unless there are key historical reasons (in which case the name goes to the historical section). In 'real life' the only place where the Turkified names are included are on some Turkish maps and can be seen as irridentist, but not on maps like that by the Turkish Ministry of Defence. To inlude them can be interpreted as unhelpful in our objectives as wikipedia informers. I stand by the same argument for the Turkish mainland placenames that originally had quite distinct Greek placenames. By historical reasons I mean places like Alexandroupoli, Adana, Izmir... Therefor the most agreeable thing would be to edit out the alternative appelation and included, if strictly necessary, in the historical section. Just for the record, if anyone disagrees, I would be interested in their arguments, which, hopefully, will make extensive references to existing works of scholarship, map making standards and general media representation. Politis 12:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I see I'm probably at the far end of xenonomatophilia on this issue. I once tried to explain my stance somewhere on Hectorian's talk page - can't find it right now. I tend to be an inclusionist because I feel the historical/foreign names, especially where they are not linguistically trivial (simple phonological adaptations/transcriptions) have a potential of telling us interesting things about the places in question. And I have difficulties understanding why everybody has these irridentist associations on seeing the names in the first line. My idea is it's a simple matter of textual organisation: if it's simple (just one or two foreign names, the easiest place to find it is in the intro sentence; if it requires more explanation (several alternative names, etymology, historical periods of use...) it best goes somewhere further down. But I can see a lot of people seem to favour solutions that de-emphasize the foreign names by moving them somehow further down. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Your point of view is laudable and would make a good paper or article; I would probably agree with most of it. However, you are a linguist and these are your ideas, your utopian convention and hence they are quite POV for the purposes of Wikipedia. We cannot ask people to see the potential. I would have hoped finding concurence with you in including such names if history requires it and in the historical section. Presumably you suggest that all place names, across Wikipedia should include their equivalent in other languages. Politis 12:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Certainly not all, and all languages - but you are of course right that my linguistic interests play a role here. There are linguistically trivial names and non-trivial ones. The fact that Thasos is called Tasöz in Turkish is pretty boring. The fact that London is called Lonðino in Greek is not quite so trivial, but it tells us something interesting only about the Greek language, not about London. But the fact that Samos is called Sakız in Turkish is interesting and tells us something interesting about Samos. - Anyway, I'll try later to sum up my position better, let's then conduct the discussion on the new page. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I would be truly interested in reading your opinion on how some parallel terminology "tells us something interesting", and the criteria by which you evaluate alternative names on a scale from 'boring' to 'educational'; but you have to admit that we need the 'tools' to decode such information and Wikipedia is not the place. For instance, a reasonable reaction in reading the Greek or Turkish alternatives in the opening line is to associate them with irridentist apprehensions - if only because that is not the convention. Perhaps we need an alternative Wikipedia to address the humanistic and scholarly aspect of such issues. Politis 13:04, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Set up here very roughly. Fut. Perf. If you could fill it out a bit I'd be grateful. Naming conventions (Islands in the Eastern Aegean) When the RfC is over it will be moved to the talk page and we will have a naming convention. Or that is the theory. - FrancisTyers · 12:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Maybe a misunderstanding: By "including the Turkish side" I meant widening the scope to the Turkish geographical articles (like Adana, Izmir, Trabzon). I'd suggest to move the discussion to Naming conventions (Greek/Turkish placenames) or something similar. There have been mirror-image edit wars over exactly the same issues there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with FPS, the problem also involves Greek names for Turkish cities, and they should be solved at the same time, best if in the same RfC.--Aldux 14:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * As for Mywayyy, my judgement of him seems to prove correct considering he continues creating socks. Fran's idea of a applying the 0RR to Mywayyy seems good, but considering his hate (I find difficult thinking of a more appropriate word) of anything related with Turkey, not enough; it should include article bans for at least half a year on Greece, Foreign relations of Greece, Imia/Kardak, Aegean dispute, Greco-Turkish relations, Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) and possibly all Aegean islands and Thracian cities.--Aldux 14:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

We can't put users under any kind of topic or article ban without ArbCom approval, and I think ArbCom would probably just indef. ban him anyway. I blocked his latest incarnation. While I'm willing to give him as many chances as he wants, the chances are contingent on him stopping the behaviour that got him banned in the first place. I have yet to see that. Regarding the naming of the thing, please rename it anyway you see fit. But preferably without a '/' :) - FrancisTyers · 14:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Aldux, the stuff you say about me, prove (apart from other things) that your judgement is not fair (the best word I can use). After the phrase Mywayyy should remain blocked because he hasnt contributed anything worthy in his entire wikipedian life now you add a new shameful phase:  considering his hate of anything related to Turkey. Aldux, I dont know you and you certainly dont know me, but I can assure you I absolutely dont hate Turkey or any other country. If you find something bad I ve writen about Turkey show it to all of us. In the meantime maybe you should ask yourself why you hate ME so much and why you say things that are not correct and more important things you cant prove.Mywayyy88.218.41.233 15:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Mywayyy, take a deep breath. I've honestly tried to help you today, but your behaviour indicates that you seem somehow genuinely unable to stick to the rules here. What is it, do your emotions overwhelm you to such a degree that you simply can't resist the urge to revert? Sorry for being personal. Fact is, you are still rightfully banned, people do care about upholding the rules, and the admins I've asked about lifting your ban have been talking about lifting it only under the strict condition of a zero-reverts parole, at best. In this situation, entering yet another edit war is the silliest thing you could possibly do, and may ruin every prospect you might have of rehabilitation. I do recognise that you may have a potential to make reasonable contributions. In this instance (at Greece), incidentally, I think you're actually wrong; the edits by User:Europe52 were good and there's no reason to revert them, let alone without a justification as you did. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Right, until he shows some kind of agreement and agrees to calm down. I'm going to be rolling back his contributions &mdash; we should have been doing this from the start anyway. Whether talk page or otherwise. If you want to talk to him, try email ;) - FrancisTyers · 16:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Well FPS I appreciate that you care about my rehabilitation (although i m not on drugs:)) and you seem a nice guy. But as I said I kept my promise. Now regarding my edit in Greece article these are the reasons why is wrong: Its not Airspace violations in general but Airspace violations by TURKEY when a turkish jet is above the Greek island of Karpathos and kills a Greek pilot. Second you should read newspapers watch TV and talk to politicians to see that the climate on Greek-Turkish relations is not good. Dont believe stuff like: we shall try this incident not to deteriorate our relations. Everybody know this is not true: Where have you seen improved relations? Plz dont let the name Mywayyy at the History dictate what you will do afterwords...As for Francis, hey maybe we should solve this via phone..get to know each other what you say?:)thanx Mywayyy88.218.37.114 16:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, your promise was only the beginning of the story. You don't get to dictate the conditions of your own un-banning. It's the matter of the admins, and they were intending a stricter set of conditions, as you now know. Unless and until you get to an agreement about these conditions with the admins involved, you are still banned. As for the Greece article, while you're banned, nobody is going to discuss the content with you; I'll only say that I see no reasons to find Europe52's version worse than yours, and certainly not bad enough to justify a breaking of the rules to revert them. As for rolling you back on talk pages, pace Francis I'd like to keep this one open for you if you want to use it negotiate your unbanning, but I very strongly advise you don't edit anywhere else unless you have a clear message that people actually consider you unbanned. E-mail is available of course. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the talk page, as you wish ;) Btw, would you object to a note at the top of the page stating in no uncertain terms that these only apply to Greek/Turkish places and names in Greek and Turkish? I appear to have gone off on a tangent, quite unwittingly :) - FrancisTyers · 19:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure, go ahead. I'd say we should avoid getting dragged in those horrible M******an issues on that page. It should be primarily about the Greek and Turkish sides (not least because it's primarily Greek and Turkish editors we've been inviting to the discussion), but of course people may want to consider that it should lead to an arrangement that can be transferred, ceteris paribus, to other similar issues. But the Mac/Slavic issue is a bit different insofar as it's not so much about what names to include but how to designate the language(s) they belong to, right? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually about both, which makes it double the fun :) - FrancisTyers · 20:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Sigh
Look at this. I blocked him. And meanwhile, I'm dealing with this. I do wonder sometimes why I bother. --Woohookitty(meow) 12:19, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Graeco-Turkish relations
Oh, i'm sorry. i thought it was a grammatical mistake... All of my life i've been hearing about 'demilitarization' of both sides, so i thought that was the case. anyway, no offense for reverting me;). as for a better wording... i am not sure if i can think of a better way (i was the one who misunderstood it, remember?;)...). Cheers --Hectorian 11:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Kollimenos
Exeis dikio FPS. ginetai na tsekareis kati giati o Aldux einai kollimenos? Pigeno sto First World arthro na diorthoso to aparadekto gegonos na grafei alla auto to arthro kai alla to Developed Country arthro kai ekeinos sinexizei na to diorthonei sto lathos!! Tragikos tipos. Sto deutero arthro pou einai kai to sosto, leei pos I Kipros px den theoreitai apo IMF World Bank kai CIA san aneptigmeno kratos eno sto proto arthro leei to aditheto kai prepei na figi apo ekei. Episis vazo enan pio euanagnosto xarti kai o tipos ton vgazei. Rixe mia matia. Kai na fandasteis oti to atomo me katigorei oti den kano useful edits!! LOL Mywayyy

Colloquialisms
It is sometimes easy (and unhelpful) to use colloquialisms in a multicultural site such as wiki. Best to stick to International English, or Americana. As the French say, 'ce qui se comprend bien s'énonce clairement'. Politis 14:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Coin image on Ancient Macedonians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Atavi#Coin_image_on_Ancient_Macedonians -Atavi 09:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Reply
Thanks. Im really tired after this pointless edit war as RG is "fighting windmills" with his POVish edits. I noticed that if you let him have his way it just gets worse, and when a more hard-headed editor finally said "enough", he unleashed all his fury at me. I doubt this will go to ArbCom- the Wikipedia stupidest edit war hall of fame would be a more suitable place :) (unless he chooses to go the current path). Cheers. Ulritz 12:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Biris
I think that you should know that Biris says that Arvanites call themselves "Αρμπερές" i.e. "Arbëreshë" (pron. Arbërésh; final unstressed -ë is normally silent); Biris tends to force Arvanitic words into the Greek alphabet so that any Greek can read them, so i doubt that's how it would be written in Arvanitic Greek alphabet. Good work with the article - I'll see to the images as soon as possible! --Telex 13:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * There is also Shqiptarë in Epirus and Thrace. I'm quoting Biris from memory now (είμαι στο χωριό τώρα), I'll verify it when I get back. Also, Eurolang used to have a page on minority languages in Greece. That page is no longer on their website, but here's a version from the web archive . --Telex 13:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Mihai Radulescu
At 08:26, 17 August 2006 User:Future Perfect at Sunrise tagged the article Mihai Radulescu for speedy deletion with the note: '''db-recreated? (see earlier deletion by William M. Connolley)'''

I wanted to let you know that db-recreated only applies when the article is substantially the same as one was previously deleted through the AfD process. It does not apply in the case of a previous speedy or prod. However, if some other speedy criterion applies to a previously deleted article, you can tag it for speedy under the applicable criterion. In this case, since the article was a copyvio, I removed the Romanian-language text and replaced it with a stub. TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 09:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

move
Honestly, I can do it right now if you want. Since it's an uncontroversial move, there's no particular need to wait; nothing can be undone as easily as a move. As for the Greek/Turkish names, yes, probably we should search a synthesis (even if I'd consider not taking in account the less successful proposals, as they did not collect any other consensus than that of the proposer: those of Politis, Telex, Kertenkelebek).--Aldux 17:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Iasson/Faethon
I think I can call myself the greatest world expert in "Iassionology"; a very obscure branch of knowledge ;-) Iasson appears to have always had a propension for sockpuppeting and trolling; this brought to Requests for arbitration/Iasson, in which Iasson was happily banned this April. From that moment he started creating the most incredible amount of socks ever seen, stuff that makes guys like Bonaparte seem humble dilettanti. I had the pleasure (sort of) of meeting him in May, and from then with the help of Pmanderson I started monitoring his edits. When I became admin, I consulted myself with Jkelly, and started a "total war" against his socks and especially his edits; I started removing ALL the additions he made since April, and you have no idea how this made him angry! He started repeated stalking campaigns against me, but this only made it more easy to detect his socks. As for the quality of his edits, Iasson is one of the worst editors I've ever seen. He hides his malicious errors and misquotes behind a veil of pseudo-erudition, mixing solid info with wrong etymologies, ex. links that don't say what he pretends do, all to make more sure that the stuff survives to monitoring from other editors. And he's successful when I started controlling all the edits made by his socks, most had survived, often in very important articles. And all this, just for trolling, as he doesn't have any pov agenda to promote.--Aldux 16:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Wow, that was a Philippika ... ;-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

stef79
I havent figured out exactly where to respond (I assume here) NEway. Thank you and thanks for the help files. I'll get to them pronto. Until then and given your experience and knowledge on wikistuff, feel free to change whatever you think needs to change. Cheers!

Vote on state route names
Yes, that was me. I was at work and i noticed it through the Portal page. I read the arguments each way, and as my main project right now is organizing and standarding information regarding Space, this vote was right up my alley. I realized afterwards that I hadn't signed in first. Good luck with the vote. --Exodio 22:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Thijs!bot
Hi FPaS, No, the ip adress you mentioned does not belong to any computer I use. I most frequently use computers in the 129.125.* domain. Thijs! 21:21, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Gia sou!
Online just for a few minutes. Check your mail, I had tried to respond earlier, but it returned. Still on vacation. Will log in again later, or maybe not... :-) :N i k o S il v e r:  14:57, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Greek Orthodox Church
Thank you for your clear comments on this issue, which have been very helpful. I apologise for misunderstanding your intentions in directing enquirers to "Greek Orthodox Church", and, of course, accept your decision on the matter. It is, though the case, that the "Greek Orthodox Church" link is not very helpful for a naive enquirer. The problem is that the concept of "Greek Orthodox Church", though seemingly intuitively understandable, refers to a range of ideas that need to be clarified for non-specialists. This the current link seeks to do, but leaves the enquirer still with the decision as to which route applies in this particular instance. Would it be possible for you to chose a more appropriate direct link? It is, of course, entirely open to you to maintain this link, should you feel that this is the best - or even least/worst - solution at present.

Your swift and very reasonable response was very welcome - just what it takes to keep Wikipedia up to scratch! I must confess my second edit was a bit absent-minded - apologies for this - no wonder you thought me a bot. I shall be more circumspect in future. All the best!!

Thessaloniki panorama shot
Thanks for the help. I'm sorry to hear that User:Telex isn't editing as much anymore. Jkelly 03:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, I think he's just on vacations, don't worry. :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Souliotes
See diff. --Macrakis 21:26, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, see diff. --Hectorian 21:31, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Djln
I have tried to follow instructions as closely as possible. However I kept meeting dead links. I hope I have done it correctly this time. I would appreciate your help with this. Djln--Djln 23:38, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

--

Dispute of Dispute
Hi, Perfect at Sunrise :) Thank you for your contribution, i have to read the article. I can also give you references supporting the Altaic theory. About the "dispute" tag, the problem is to put the discussion on the right place. If we continue the discussion under Turkic Languages pages, this would lead to conclusion that there is a dispute of Turkic languages being Altaic cause only in the Turkic language pages there exist "disputed" tag. This is my main objection for removal. If you seach the pages of all Altaic languages, you'll see the "disputed" tag only in the articles about Turkic languages not for the others in the Altaic group. For the Altaic discussion, this should be done either under the Altaic Languages page or Altaic Hypothesis page, as Ante Aikio also stated. Putting the "dispute" only under Turkic language related pages causes another dispute. e104421 3 September 2006, 9:55 (UTC)

Hi, Perfect at Sunrise :) Thanx for your contribution. Maybe cause of the language barrier, i could not express myself clearly. I can safely say that i'm not against any discussion, i'm just supporting that this should be done under "Altaic Languages" or maybe better "Altaic hypothesis" section. We can continue the discussion there. For the "(disputed)" tag, my opion is that this may lead a misundestanding on the issue and should be removed. I've just started reading the article "Telling the general linguists about Altaic", maybe turn you back in time. e104421 3 September 2006, 17:39 (UTC)


 * (to Fut. Perf.) Sorry, I still strongly disagree with omitting "disputed", it's like having an article full of POV and bullshit without having at the top. &mdash;  Khoikhoi  18:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I do not think so. What shall we do then? Khoikhoi's way of discussion requires NPOV. He's getting more agressive if some make an objection against his POV. Upto now he didn't made any constructive contribution but always tried to joke with the issue. One of the fundamental principles of wikipedia is to assume good faith []. We are trying to help the project, discussing the way to improve it. e104421 3 September 2006, 19:55 (UTC)


 * No misunderstanding, the issue here is what serves the reader. Not having the disclaimer will make them think that there isn't a dispute, when in fact there is. Simply denying the controversy isn't going to help anybody. &mdash; Khoikhoi  20:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The "(disputed)" tag leads misunderstanding. Please, check here. [] the discussion page of Khazar language. e104421 3 September 2006, 20:29 (UTC)


 * (Personal attack removed) &mdash; Khoikhoi  20:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * What is the personal attack? or who made it? Please, explain, i cannot see anything here, also from the history here [] e104421 3 September 2006, 20:39 (UTC)


 * Something's getting weird here. Take a cup of tea everybody... :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * ))) Hahaha, really Altaic, no need to any dispute! e104421 3 September 2006, 20:45 (UTC)

Okay, now that everybody has had their tea, let me sum up again. I personally don't feel strongly either way, but I understand that e104421 wants the local disclaimers removed and Ante and Khoikhoi want them preserved. As I see it, both sides have valid arguments: Okay, having come this far, let's have a dispute about how our dispute about the dispute is going to be solved. Can the four of us simply agree on something, or do we need a tiebreaker fifth opinion, an RfC or something? Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Pro disclaimers:
 * The genetic validity of Altaic undoubtedly is disputed.
 * Readers should be made aware of the dispute at the earliest occasion.
 * The hierarchies in the info boxes should represent genetic families in the strict sense, in keeping with the definition of "language family" linked to from the infobox
 * Against disclaimers:
 * The dispute is a minor issue among a small circle of specialists; in general linguistic usage, the label "Altaic languages" is widely used and treated as uncontroversial irrespective of whether it's a genetic family sensu strictu or "only" an areal grouping;
 * In fact, even authors participating in the specialist debate employ the label in this loose sense in informal exposition.
 * It is sufficient if readers find information about the dispute when clicking on the link to Altaic languages; they don't need to be burdened with it on every single language page.
 * The disclaimers obliterate an important distinction between two different types of "disputedness": (a) Does language X really belong to Altaic? (b) X belongs to Altaic, but what is Altaic? - Disputedness of type (b) should be treated only centrally and not at the individual language pages.

Talk:Macedonia (terminology)
...you know the drill! :-) •N i k o S il v e r•  10:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Greek toponyms
Hi, thanks for welcoming me and informing me about the three-revert rule. As an open-minded person, would you mind commenting on the discussion on my discussion page. Aldux seems to think that Greek names have no place on articles on cities in FYROM (except Bitola and Ohrid) under the pretext that there is no community in the cities in question using those names, although he strives to maintain Slavic names found in the standardized languages of Bulgaria, FYROM and Serbia in articles on Greek places, despite the fact that there is no evidence that the Slavic community in northern Greece uses those names (nor is there any evidence that they use the Cyrillic alphabet - that it assuming that their "language" which is on its way to language death is written at all). Thanks.

PS I, like you, think that all names should be included though - even if it is just for historical reasons.

Mywayyy?
I've blocked him for just 24h for disruption, as I felt I couldn't yet be absolutely certain he was an obvious sockpuppet, so I didn't indefinitely block him. Maybe we should consider asking Fran what he thinks of all this. Mainly the 2005 edits tend to indicate another editor, and maybe not Mywayyy.--Aldux 20:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, it seems that it wasn't him (though i am not 100% sure). But this user was acting as a Mywayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy's (many more -ys:D) "carbon"! we'll see if he will come back when he gets unblocked, and which will be his attitude them. --Hectorian 18:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Telling the general linguists about Altaic
Hi, Future Perfect at Sunrise :) I got the article and read it carefully. As you said before, this article is a state-of-the-art contibution to the Altaic. Thank you very much for your helps. I shall try to contact with the authors of this article to help us about the dispute of dispute. Only in this way, they'll understand the dispute about the Altaic is a minor one. Keep in touch. e104421 7 September 2006 (UTC) 20:50

Hey
Thanks :) The dissertation was entitled "Evaluation of Automated Metrics for the Evaluation of Machine Translation at the Sentence Level: A Study in the Domain of Interlingual Subtitles". Pretty nonsensical from the title, but basically, there are these programs that say how good machine translation output is. I did a study comparing them on subtitles translated using machine translation. For my PhD I'd like to research into corpus based approaches of inducing bilingual dictionaries and transfer rules for closely related languages from comparable corpora (e.g. text you find on the web). I'm (obviously) interested in Bulgarian/Macedonian pair, but also Persian/Tajik (yay, abjad) and Turkish/Tatar :) &mdash; let me know if there is anything I can help with (however I don't really know anything about Greek so it would be more on the formatting etc. side of things.

PS. You may wonder why my user page changed. Well, I noticed that one of my prospective supervisors edited Wikipedia and I'd prefer him not to wonder about why I have been called a holocaust denier and racist :) - FrancisTyers · 23:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Age of Greek and Sanskrit
Hi, I made the edit mostly based on Indo-European linguistics textbooks. I think it is first Hittite, then Sanskrit, then Greek. As far as I can remember from the books, there is reference to attestation and not just preservation. Either way, from the point of view of linguistics at least, what it matters most is which era's language is represented and copied (taking into account possible changes when a manuscipt is copied). When we come across a medieval manuscript of a 5th cent. B.C. text, I believe we are considering it as a document of 5th cent. B.C language.--Michkalas 09:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I have already begun to clean some dust off my library... :-) It is good that you at least, looking after the article regularly, you believe the edit is ok.--Michkalas 09:19, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject History of Greece
I saw you're interested in the project! Well, it's now open and it is waiting for volunteers! In (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject History of Greece) you'll see what I've done and what is left to be done according to my opinion. I tried to set a basic plan of work, but I was very tired to go into details. Right now I feel exhausted! Please, check the page and the talk page, and I think you'll find areas for contribution and creativity. Make your suggestions and additions, express your thoughts, your critics and anything else you feel appropriate. I believe that through co-operation we'll find our way. I think the most important thing is to keep the project alive and imrove its quality and its importance. If possible, spread the news and recruit other users. I'll come back, when I'll feel less tired! Cheers!--Yannismarou 17:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

What is commonly accepted about the ancient Macedonians
Please have a look at Ulrich Wilcken's Alexander der Große or Griechische Geschichte im Rahmen der Altertumsgeschichte, and Egon Friedell's Kulturgeschichte Griechenlands, and maybe you'll see where I'm coming from when I say "commonly accepted". They're all German sources and it will be easy for them to find them. Skip to the section of ancient Macedonia. The last one is worth a read in any case. I'm not making up my edits. Miskin 21:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the article itself only a few sentences further down (or was it further up?) contains well documented views that contradict that hypothesis, which makes it exactly not "commonly accepted". And as long as the dissenting views are held by people as preeminent in the field as Borza, like it or not, there is no reason to play them down. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Wilcken and Friedell are by far more preeminent by Borza, the only setback is that they're not as recent. O. Masson, Lane Fox and Hammond on the other hand, are alive and kicking, and much more mainstream than Borza. It's probably some 1-5 support against Borza's thesis, hence the "majority". My claim is also verified by the Britannica article (which I can cite for you). Miskin 11:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I still can't see how that would support "commonly", even if your assessment of the relative positions of these people in their field is correct (which I cannot judge right now). Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:51, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Check talk:Eugene Borza (plagiarized bio). He's been categorized as a category:Romanian-Americans. If that is true (is it?) can he be considered 'third party' or 'non-partisan'? His name flashes everywhere in the worst blogs I've ever seen for once... •N i k o S il v e r•  12:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know what his ethnic background or his political bias would be. He's entitled to have it, just like anybody else. Why would only a "third-party" scholar count here? He is evidently a respected and prolific author in the field; if the Macedonian nationalist websites have been taking him hostage that's not his fault. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Pardon me, I didn't mean to imply he is biased. I just asked if you know. I am sure we can't list all those Greek (Greek-American or whatever) prominent scholars that appear in Google scholar as 'non-partisan', so why can we treat a Romanian (if he is) differently? He still can be the NPOVest person in the world. Anyway, about the blog thing, you're right. But how do we know for a fact that he is prominent? I did my search and haven't found anything. Maybe you could direct me somewhere, since you're in the field... •N i k o S il v e r•  13:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to rewrite this. Miskin 12:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * [Rest of comment moved further down. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)]


 * Thanks FP! I am sure you'll make it as neutral as possible...NikoSilver 20:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Ahem, sorry, my refactoring was misleading. The above promise to "rewrite this" was actually Miskin's, not mine. And I must disappoint you, I really don't feel like seriously entering the Macedonian topics. Don't think I'll find the time and energy any time soon. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi, Future Perfect at Sunrise. having seen the discussion, thought to drop some lines as well. i think it is a blatant POV-pushing to dispute the mainstream opinion about the Ancient Macedonians. a minority of scholars indeed dispute them having been Greek. however, the majority should prevail, and the thoughts of the minority should be presented in a paragraph in that article, and not in everything linked to the ancient Macedonians (e.g. Ancient Macedonian language, which is listed as a Greek dialect, as related to Greek or as unrelated at all). there are minority opinions in almost every wikipedian article (e.g. Armenian Genocide, Graeco-Armenian language, September 11 attacks, etc etc-i can think of many many more articles...). but in no other case the opinion of a minority has been promoted that much as in the case of the Ancient Macedonians! just because some users do not want to see the ancient Macedonians as Greek, it does not mean that all the related articles should be in a mess... In no case am i talking about a censorship, of course. i am saying that every opinion should take the place it diserves, based on the evidence, references and appeal it has. And the most widely accepted theory is that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks. Regards Hectorian 20:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, from all I can see from those portions of the literature I've had access to until now (mind you, that's mostly the linguistic angle, not the historical one), I'm not convinced of your assessment that the non-Greek view is a clear minority, let alone such an insignificant one. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I know you don't have the energy, but your position seems certain. Care to point out which other neutral portions of literature maintain this opinion (even by a linguistic angle)? I mean, if it's just Borza, then he clearly is the minority, both in prominence and in ...population. •N i k o S il v e r•  21:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * My position certain? Well, let's say, it's certainly agnostic on the issue. As for the linguistic literature: The article quotes Antoine Meillet as a proponent of a non-Greek view. That alone is an absolute showstopper. Look him up, a view endorsed by that guy can almost by definition never be non-mainstream. More or less every linguistic reference work I've ever seen has retained an agnostic or skeptical view of XMK-Greek unity. Horrocks (1997), my favourite up-to-date history of Greek, has not a word endorsing XMK-Greek unity. I must admit I don't clearly remember the position taken by Brixhe/Panayiotou (1994) - I read it years ago. The most advanced treatment I've recently come across is the article by Garrett (1999) that I quoted in the XMK article. He basically declares the question moot. Good read, but very technical. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * From the respective article: the 5th century lexicon of Hesychius of Alexandria, amounting to about 700 words and proper names. Most of these are confidently identifiable as Greek, but some of them are not easily reconciled with standard Greek phonology. Many more info is there as well.  the theory of Anc.Mac. not been a greek dialect is a minority opinion, not to mention a very recent one (just a century old theory). If u have studied linguistics that much, u will have seen that many of the differences between Macedonian and Attic are identical with the diffs between Aeolian and Attic... However, noone has ever dared to say that the Aeolians were not Greek (i am afraid that this with also happen some day...). in addition, minority opinions also exist (surprisingly originating from the same country) suggesting that the Greeks are sub-saharans and that the Bulgarians are not Slavs, but Mongols... Letting the articles about the Ancient Macedonians being so confusing (i doubt if in the end, the reader will understand which is the mainstream opinion and which is not), will gradually lead in making Wikipedia less informative, in the name of NPOV (apparently, this is not what NPOV means). Presenting a minority opinion is encyclopedic, but giving it the same validity with the majority is not. --Hectorian 22:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not the place and time here to discuss whether you or I find this or that piece of evidence convincing. It's just about our perceptions what is mainstream in scholarship, and I can only repeat, my perception of that is very different from yours. And I'm not talking about cheap nationalist websites. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that neither u nor me are talking about cheap nationalist websites. we are just making a discussion. as i see in that article, 8 scholars claim it to be Greek (A.Fick, O.Hoffmann, Kretschmer, E. Schwyzer, M. Sakellariou, N.G.L. Hammond, O. Masson, Ahrens, F. H. L.) and 4 consider it to be non Greek (K. O. Müller, G. Bonfante, I. I. Russu, A. Meillet - without this meaning that these 4 agree with each other...), without including ancient and/or medieval sources, but only modern ones! In this form, the majority of the article's sources justify my point. if u, or anyone else have valid sources to favour the other position, it would be interesting those to be added. but in the current state, the article seems to contrantict itself, that's why i am thinking of tagging it. --Hectorian 22:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, scholarly consensus is not a majority vote, let alone a majority vote between just those authors who happen to have been quoted here. Unless someone comes up with massive amounts of additiona material, the names quoted clearly offer only one reasonable result: in Wikipedia jargon, no consensus. Why the hell not just leave it at that? Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There would be many reasons for me not leaving it just like that... from the fact that i am a Greek living in Thessaloniki, to the fact that it is unencyclopedic and 'rude' for the readers forcing them believe that majority=minority and that a minority opinion should be mentioned as a fact (cause, yes, my friend, a minority opinion has led this article to be in fact 'disputed'). That's why, i think that two templates (Template:Contradict and Template:Confusing) are the suitable for that. Hectorian 22:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * What the? Sorry, but this makes me almost angry. What has the fact that you are a Greek living in Thessaloniki to do with ancient linguistics? And how on earth does the article present a "minority opinion" as "fact"? First, you haven't proven it's a minority opinion in the first place, and second it's not presenting it as fact but simply as one serious opinion among others. Which is absolutely appropriate. I very strongly object to your two templates, there's nothing either self-contradictory nor confusing about taking the opinions of some of the greatest linguists of the 20th century seriously. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I meant to say that i study linguistics in Thessaloniki, and the fact that i am Greek makes it easier to me to find the similarities between the ancient Greek dialects. A minority opinion has led this article to present 'dispute of classification' as a fact. i think i have proven it's a minority opinion from the references in that article (note again: only modern references). I am not saying that it is not a serious opinion, nor that these linguists are not important. i am just saying that they must have a specific section where their theories will be fully explained, without making their presence in the lead as valid as the opinions of the modern-day majority (and apparently the opinions that have been all-times majority). --Hectorian 23:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Chill! :-) Both of you! Hey, FP, I'm from Paxi, does this count? :-) Back to business: I thought there was a third language hypothesis: that it was a sister (not daughter) language of Greek, from Proto-Greek. So we have 12 refs? What's the tally of sister/daughter/alien? •N i k o S il v e r• 23:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I do not have any problem with Future Perfect at Sunrise and i am sorry if i made him 'almost angry':). it is a just difference of opinion. I believe that in the current state, the general meaning of the article is: 'it is commonly accepted that noone is sure about the classification of the ancient Macedonian language', despite of the majority of sources and references. certainly, this is not what the majority of scholars have and still think... Regards to both --Hectorian 23:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, if it helps, FP had found a decent solution for the infobox, and someone just had to go ahead and change it... •N i k o S il v e r•  23:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know that Borza was a Romanian-American, but I could always smell a bias. Someone who concentrates so much on an ethnic debate cannot be coming from a neutral background. A Romanian-American cannot be considered less non-partisan than a Greek-American (see Macedo-Romanians or Phanariotes to get the picture). In any case, his work has not been criticised as biased so we don't have the right to treat it as such. However we don't have the right to give him more credit than other scholars either. Lane Fox, Hammond, Masson (a preeminent linguist) and many from the German school are definitely the mainstream scholars on the topic. There have been hundreds of other theories on the origin of XMK but none of them have gained substantial support (if any). I'm not asking to ignore them, I'm only asking to give priority to the more popular ones (which is definitely not Borza's). The greater part of the current article was compiled by Alexander_007 (coincidence: another Romanian-American) who used Borza as his principal source, along with a good deal of OR to fill the gaps. Make your own conclusions. Miskin 12:27, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Last time I checked, Borza was a historian, not a linguist. I'm talking here of the debate about the linguistic classification of XMK, not of the ethnic/cultural character of the Macedonians. Two different kettles of fish. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem! i also lost my temper and that's why some of my comments had been somehow 'poisonous'... Sorry... But in anycase, thanks to yours and the work of the rest of us, this article is better now. That is quite an achievement, no?:). Ciao Hectorian 05:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Articles on Greek language and Greek dialects
Your initiative to rename Category:Hellenic languages and dialects and generally to make categorization for articles on Greek language and Greek dialects more systematic and not sircular is highly useful. Another possible renaming would be that of Category:Hellenic scripts to Category:Greek scripts. Also, there is an incosistency concerning the heading and the content of articles on Greek dialects. This incosistency, of course, is a matter not only of Wikipedia but of their linguistic analysis too. I firmly believe that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. But Greek dialects are generally known as dialects and not languages. This has nothing to do with purely linguistic criteria, mutual intelligibility or whatever. The sole reason is that they lack an army and a navy. But that's how there are generally refered to. What is more, there isn't consistency in Wikipedia between heading and content. So, Pontic language (heading) is (first line of the article) "a Greek dialect ". On the other hand, Cypriot Greek mentions nothing at its heading for its status. In my opinion, Pontic, for example, or Tsakonian would, on linguistic grounds, easily qualify for a language status. But, whatever our choice, we have to be consistent. This problem is also mirrored in the greek wikipedia, where it is also unresolved. Maybe we can do something about it. --Michkalas 13:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Please don't use the word "Hellenic" - I hate that pretentious word. Use the word "Greek". --Telex 14:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree with both of you. Let's use article titles that steer clear of the silly language-dialect issue, which is really a non-issue in the case of Greek. For the purpose of Wikipedia article naming and categorisation, let's just have Greek language as a single-language unit, with several subarticles for its different standard forms (Classical, Koine, Modern etc.), and all the rest treated on a par, as dialects. Leave whatever discussion of seperate language status might be necessary (Pontic, Tsakonian etc) to the article text. I'm currently quite busy working on the main series of articles for Modern and Classical Greek, which need restructuring. We can tackle the minor varieties articles later. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Take a look at Talk:Greek language. I believe WikiProject Languages/Template should be followed.--Michkalas 18:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Greek language article series (2)
Let me first of all say and stress as much as possible that you are doing very serious work and you are really spending a lot of time to reoraganize Greek language article series. Greek language articles prove to be a hard issue. I had the chance -because I contribute mainly to Greek Wikipedia- to read the archive in Talk:Greek language and see the "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" attitude of most Greeks. There was also someone insisting that there is a dative case in Modern Greek! There was a determination too to include as many "Greek language is the first that..." as possible and then fill the "that-clause" part with whatever convenient.

Now, as to the detailed proposal you make. My feeling is that the content of "Greek language" article you propose can be fully merged to "Modern Greek language". "Modern Greek language" can and should be a lenghty article. The "Greek language" article you propose is, in fact, minus the language infobox, a sketch of "History of Greek language", which (the sketch) will fit nicely in the "MG lg" article. If we try to write the "history" section or other parts of the "MG language" article as you propose it, we will see that there we need the same kind and amount of information intended for the "Greek language" article. What is more, the language infobox is designed for the modern, living languages. This comes to the conclusion that "Greek lg" and "MG lg" should be one article and "History of Greek language" another one with a more detailed account of the language, the alphabet and the demographics of it's speakers. Because of the importance of the History part in the Greek language we can modify the template proposal by putting the "History of G lg" section after the "classification" and "geographic distribution" part, instead of putting it at the end (this is also the way things are arranged at Portuguese language, a featured article). I don't know, do you believe that "Greek language" article can have significantly more or different information than a comprenhensive "MG language" article?

Finally, I also believe we need both a Category:Varieties of Ancient Greek and Category:Varieties of Modern Greek. The "History of Greek language" infobox is also straightforward without the hide/show option.

BTW, the other users who have expressed their opinion back in June don't seem to follow this conversation so far. Maybe we have to ask them to do so.--Michkalas 10:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, it would definitely be nice if we could get input from the others again (and I'm saying this not only because they were supporting "my" position :-) ) - Right now it looks like almost evenly divided, with you, Peter Isotalo and Adreas on the one side versus dab, Miskin, Macrakis and me on the other. Perhaps we need to make a handy comparison of the two models so that outsiders understand the issues better. It would also help to see what, according to your model, needs actual changing in comparison to now. Basically, your suggestion means to leave the scope of Greek language more or less as is. That leaves us with the following issues: What to do with the current Modern Greek article - merge completely into Greek language? Or merge only a summary part of it into Greek language and expand the rest into a new (Modern) Greek dialects article? It currently has the varieties-and-sociolinguistic things about Modern Greek, but not the structural sketch things. Apart from that, I guess we'd only need to rename some of the subarticles to make the naming consistent - in particular, we should move the current Greek dialects to Ancient Greek dialects to make place for a new one.


 * I'm still not happy that on "your" model, we'll never have separate, easily disambiguated link targets for "Greek as a whole", "Greek, specifically ancient" and "Greek, specifically modern". Let's say, as a silly example, that in an article on Polygamy I wanted to write: "the term polygamy comes from the Greek word γαμώ 'to marry'". Now, that link leads the reader to an article that is essentially about a language where γαμώ means something rather different. ;-) Or even worse (though even less seriously): Imagine I wanted to write the following: "The term polygamy comes from the Greek word "γαμώ", which means 'to marry' in Ancient Greek but 'to f..k' in Modern Greek." Ρε γ... το, οn your proposal, the first and the third link would necessarily go to the same article, which would be confusing to readers. We have these kinds of confusion now in many instances, I think.


 * As for the categories, I think that should be uncontroversial, we can just go ahead and do it if you feel it's a good idea.


 * The show/hide buttons in the navigation box were just an experiment of mine, I liked them because they made the thingie smaller. We have so many infoboxes in these articles already. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * P.S. Just to give a less silly example of the problem outlined above: Hypothetical text from an article about Cyrillic: "The Cyrillic letter Θ (Fita, [f]) occurs in words borrowed from Greek containing the letter Θ, which was pronounced [tʰ] in Ancient Greek but [θ] in Modern Greek." - Again, we really need three different link targets here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Just to make clear what exactly I mean. All the content, in my opinion, of Modern Greek can be merged with Greek language. The "Evolution from Ancient to Modern Greek" section can be summarized for the history section of the "Greek language" and/or be added as it is in "History of Gr language". An article such as Modern Greek dialects is still possible and should be created only if it is to contain significantly more information than the section in MG article. Greek dialects, I agree,clar should become Ancient Greek Dialects with a disambiguation page for "Greek dialects". (BTW, the confusion you mention with "γαμώ" and Θ is possible, more or less, eitherway)--Michkalas 11:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Greek language article series (3)
[thread moved from further up]

Concerning the Greek language, I believe in "if you want something done, do it yourself". This consensus has been going on for some months and the majority is clearly in favour of the reformation, so there's no point to await any longer. If you agree with it as well then help me balance the two articles and consider the matter closed. Miskin 12:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, I can take full responsibility for it, if someone is fanatically against it, then let him just revert back. Miskin 12:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * You might want to look at a few (very rough) drafts with some restructuring ideas that I put up here:
 * User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/Greek language
 * User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/Modern Greek
 * User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/Modern Greek phonology
 * User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/History of the Greek language (Navigation infobox)
 * User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/Varieties of Modern Greek should follow shortly.
 * Also see the discussion on User talk:Michkalas and further down here on this page. Thanks, Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, that's not very different from the current condition. It only separates the Greek language historical periods into sections, and suggests a new article on Modern Greek phonology. IMHO, varieties of modern Greek should be kept in Modern Greek and there should be a separate article on Demotic Greek (standard Greek). At the moment I'm not sure what to do with all the links and references in the Greek language article. Miskin 13:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Hm, the suggestion about "Demotic Greek" makes things even more complicated. Especially since the equation "Demotic Greek"="Standard Greek" isn't that straightforward either. You are not suggesting moving the whole system-sketch yet another step down, from "Modern Greek" into "Demotic Greek", are you? Phonology and all? I'd say, keep the central things at "Modern Greek" and treat that like other modern-language articles: System sketch about the modern standard form; summary sections about history including dialects etc., series of subarticles for details. In that sense, the "Modern Greek" article should definitely have a summary section explaining both the Katharevousa-Demotic split and giving a short discussion of the regional dialects, but then there's definitely space for sub-articles on those topics. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * In fact, their is no need for an article like Demotic Greek or Katharevousa. We need a section in "Modern Greek" explaining the Greek diglossia, as FPaS says, and then, after the Greek language articles series is settled, something like Greek diglossia or Greek language question for a detailed account.--Michkalas 15:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Right, another valid point. Demotic and Katharevousa are certainly easier to treat substantially together in a single article. We just need to make sure the many incoming links to Katharevousa and Demotic Greek are redirected to something sensible, and we don't irritate readers with having both these links side by side close together in a text when they effectively lead to the same target. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Greek language article series (4)
hm, so where is the bulk of this discussion going down? Best to keep it all in one place. Wikiproject Greek? Make sure to post a digest of any results to a permanent place, such as a Wikiproject, or a MoS page, so people joining the topic have a chance of finding them (nobody reads talk archives) dab (ᛏ) 17:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Most of the discussion is actually now here, right above - but I had to refactor it a bit to make it more easily recoverable. See also User talk:Michkalas. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Κωνσταντινούπολη
Wow! this was an excellent analysis!:). exactly what i desperately wanted to say, but cause of my lack of how and when to use english linguistic terminology, i would never had made it... (in greek it would be ridiculously easy for me:p) Hectorian 13:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Just fishin...
...Like the bait? -> WikiProject History of Greece •N i k o S il v e r•  21:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Admin. noticeboard
Although I'm not an admin, I've left a message on Deucalionite's talk page. Please let me know if you find another instance of plagiarism involving this editor. I am an impartial observer, who neither knows nor edits with any of the parties involved. I have also promised to request a siteban on this user if it happens again. Durova 15:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

See my comments on Deucalionite's Talk page. His Treaty of Björkö article is very poor. --Macrakis 23:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Greco-Turkish relations
Ah yes, you simply create an image similar to the ones at Greco-Armenian relations and Armenian-Turkish relations. :) Perhaps Clevelander could make the map for you... &mdash; Khoikhoi  01:07, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Tetrastyle
Thanks for your praise. I believe what they mean by "tetrastyle" is normally rendered in English as "four-pillared" or "four-columned" or (better still) "a church with a single dome supported on four piers". Best regards, Ghirla  -трёп- 16:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Turkish name; "Selanik" for "Thessaloniki"
Dear Future Perfect at Sunrise, Yes you are right. If we add all foreign names to a city there would be a huge list. But except Turkish and especially for Selanik. Selanik was an Ottoman city during several hundreds years. Cultural roots of city (like as many other Greek cities) is Turkish and Greek. There are historical relations of many hundred thousands of Turkish people with Selanik.Like me, as my grandpa born at that city.Also, Ataturk. So,.. to add Turkish name to that city is not fanatism nor vandalism. I will add again with my respects to you. Regards.

Mustafa Akalp 16:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Phonetics
Hi, OK about the secondary stress marks and the e̞s and o̞s. I think you may also have a point about the /c/, I mean its not like the κ in και which definitely is a /c/. It could even be something like [elini'kʲi]. --Tzekai 17:57, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Spiritus Asper
I saw your revision regarding Ayin and wanted to discuss it. I take my information from the following locations:


 * Ayin entry in Wikipedia - "It is usually transliterated into the Latin alphabet with ʿ, a symbol based on the Greek spiritus asper "
 * [Jewish Languages Mailing List] - (Regarding various pronunciations of Ayin): "One could argue that the initial "h" was simply a transcription, akin to greek (...) spiritus asper,"
 * Gesenius Hebrew Grammar - (Regarding the transliteration of 'ayin') - the LXX reproduce (ayin) by a spiritus (lenis or asper) (sic).

Given the wikipedia description and Gesenius (who is considered an expert in such things), it seems reasonable to say that the spiritus asper mark us used to represent the Hebrew 'ayin'.

Why do you disagree? --Blue Tie 18:09, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The difference is that spiritus asper is a diacritc, while the latin version of 'ayin is its own proper symbol. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 19:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand that there is a difference in how it is used. But it is still a "spiritus asper", is it not? At least that is how the literature in such things refers to it. --Blue Tie 19:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, its adoption in Latin transcription of Hebrew may certainly be based on the Greek spiritus, as the Ayin article says, but they are still distinct signs. And I can't follow you in saying "that is how the literature ... refers to it." The jewish languages discussion forum you're quoting seems to be discussing the use of the actual Latin letter "h", *not* the spiritus sign, in some pre-modern systems of rendering Hebrew. The Gesenius grammar notes that the spiritus asper corresponds in pronunciation to a different Hebrew letter (an actual /h/ sound). Where it's saying that Ayin was rendered by way of approximation in Greek by either of the two spiritus, that's different on several counts: First, we're dealing with usage in Greek, not with the usage of adopting the spiritus-based sign in Latin. Second, saying that it was rendered by either of the two spiritus basically means it wasn't rendered at all - in Greek writing, you just have to have either of the two spiritus on an initial vowel, and by the time the LXX was written these no longer made any actual phonetic difference, as far as I recall. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok. Can you help me out?  What is the symbol (ʿ) typically called when you spell ʿayin with it?  When I look it up, I find the term "spiritus asper" most frequently.  And it seems right also because of the pronunciation.  But evidently that is not what it is called.  I know it is not called "an apostrophe" (in fact that would be the wrong mark).  It seems that wikipedia in one place calls it a spiritus asper, but from what I can tell based upon your knowledge this is wrong. So I am confused.  I see that both this symbol and the spiritus asper symbol are defined as "left half circle" marks.  To me they both look the same and indicate similar pronunciations, the difference being that sometimes it is used in Greek and sometimes it is used in Hebrew or Arabic.  But if it is not the same thing then what is it called? --Blue Tie 00:36, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject History of Greece Newsletter - Issue I - September 2006
The September 2006 issue of the WikiProject History of Greece newsletter has been published.

You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link.

Thank you.--Yannismarou 07:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * By the way, welcome to the project! I didn't have the chance to welcome you earlier.--Yannismarou 07:28, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh hi!
Like the disguise? :)) &mdash; I'd been meaning to do this for some time anyway, now I can look cool like User:Charles Matthews, User:Jimbo Wales and all those other guys with spaces in their names! (I mean you of course!) - FrancisTyers · 11:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Haha, too late now :) They already did it. Maybe someone will put me up for nomination in a month or so (when I have the requisite amount of edits -- currently stands at 45) :) - Francis Tyers · 15:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the policy is to only give out adminship again through an RfA. Plus, I want to make sure that the community feels I am suitable for adminship, not just the people I work with (As much as I love you all) :) But seriously, I'd like to give it a month of editing as a normal editor. Perhaps when I come back from Serbia/Macedonia in November? - Francis Tyers · 15:42, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

IPA
We never agreed on what to do with the IPA on the Greece article. --Tzekai 08:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Right. These days, I keep hitting unto topics that need debate, and then never find the energy of actually following them through to the end. :-( As I said, I'd prefer a broad phonetic transcription on a (liberally) phonemic level. See the tables in my temporary User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/Modern Greek phonology for the symbol repertoire. Instead of [c] we might also use [k̡] (k with palatalization hook) - not standard part of IPA, but quite widely used in phonological treatments of Modern Greek, or [kʲ]. Both are easier to understand for the lay reader than [c], I think, and they might actually be more exact than [c]. If you like, then instead of  would be the obvious analogous choice. The voiced stops can be  or  according to their most common standard realisation (intervocalic or otherwise).  rather than , for simplicity. Stress marked by a single  primary stress mark. Vowels simply [a,e,i,o,u]. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:33, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

List of insular languages
There's no reason to waste time and resources to let this go on in AfD. I strongly dispute your ruling, and I want a second opinion from another admin. I've seen you do this before, because I remember that pic with your sloppy long hair. Billy Blythe 12:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Answered
Hi. I've answered your questions on my talk page. Redux 16:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Ban
Thanks for clarifying; your edits were very good. Jayjg (talk) 20:03, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Check your email. Miskin 13:22, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Question
Hey Fut.Perf, would you be able to answer a question for me? I noticed at the Trabzon article the transliteration of "Τραπεζούντα" is "Trapezoúnda", but at List of traditional Greek place names they give "Trapezoúnta". Can you tell me which one is correct? Thanks. &mdash; Khoikhoi 22:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * "nt" is pronounced "nd". IMO the transliteration should be either etymological or phonetic: in the former case it would be Trapezoúnta, in the latter Trapezúnda. --Tzekai 22:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, thanks. I also noticed at Names of European cities in different languages a third one, "Trapezúnda".


 * Also, when you type in "Trapezoúnda" -wikipedia, it seems as if you only get Wikipedia mirrors. &mdash; Khoikhoi 22:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Could well be. I think Tzekai is spot on here: "Trapezounta" (with ou and t) is a good transliteration, "Trapezunda" (with u and d) is a good phonetic transcription, "Trapezounda" is sort of in between and neither. As for the background to the "nt/nd" thing, see my draft article (still woefully incomplete) at User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/Modern Greek phonology. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright then. Nice article btw! &mdash; Khoikhoi 07:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Greek Motto
Hi. I never questioned if that phrase is the greek national motto in my whole life! but i will try to find a citation to make it clearer. Ciao Hectorian 21:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi
Hi there. I just wanted to let you know that I responded to you on my AfD. I'm curious to know what you have to say. Cheers, AdamBiswanger1 16:52, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Admin?
Now, you polyglot and Niko's compatriot, would you like to give it a try for an admin re? I thought you were one and you certainly act like one (if it quacks...).

If you disagree, I will block you for good, of course. Duja 15:31, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Damm!! I Wanted to do it first

! Oh well, I can always be your co-nominator... (can I ?)--Aldux 15:46, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, thank you both! I'm honoured. Actually, I was toying with the idea myself (especially since I lost Francis), but to be honest right now I'd prefer to give it another few weeks. Let me just quack on for a little while (blocked or not) to readjust my wikirole. For my own taste, I've been doing to much talkpage debating and too little actual article editing recently. I'd want to first get a few long-standing article projects done. But I guess I'll come back to you some time! :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Another few weeks have passed... my hand is on the trigger "block" button. Duja 14:56, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, since you're giving me no choice... Yeah, I guess we might just as well go for it now. Thanks again! :-) But if you can, give me a bit of time preparing my answers and stuff, so don't take this as the "official" word of acceptance yet. Can we prepare a page somewhere undisturbed and get the process running on the weekend, maybe? Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Basically, the process starts by creating a subpage by nominators but not "revealing it to the world" until you accept and reply the boilerplate questions; when done, you list the nom yourself at WP:RfA, and then the clock starts ticking. Since I gotta run soon, and Aldux also expressed wish to co-nom, I'll probably do it tomorrow and from then on you have all the time in the world. Note that a part of supporting cabal crew, Francis included, myself only briefly, has a bacchanalia gathering in Belgrade for the weekend, so the next week will be probably fine for all. Duja 15:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Great :-))))) Now we only have to bully convince Fran in returning to be an admin. There is even a chance that if Fran asks, he may not even have to stand for a new Rfa, but obtain it immediately back, as happened with my nominator for rfa, that had also left admin status for some time.--Aldux 17:18, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you know the joke with the psychotherapist? A patient who visited him burst laughing outside his office. When the doctor asked him why, he responded: You call us insane, but it is you who has put a label infront of your office, admitting you are psycho-the-rapist! In the same sense, we could say Admin-is-trator!! You have no chance you polyglot compatriot impersonator pov-pusher! :-) •N i k o S il v e r•  21:13, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * We can call that 14/88 guy for PR if you wish! :-) •N i k o S il v e r•  17:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi
What would you require me to do to prove that I will not be abusive again? I am prepared to accept some kind of suspended sentence if this is what you want. I have admitted I was wrong. I will try to change.--GreekWarrior 15:35, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, to tell you the truth, I didn't see any such sign anywhere so far, and after all that long history of opportunities, I'm skeptical if I would trust you. It's not up to me to decide, but personally, I must say I would be uncomfortable seeing you around and meeting you on topics I'm interested in, knowing your opinions (which apparently haven't changed, and which I find absolutely contemptible), even if you were outwardly well-behaving. Upshot is, I'm not going to get involved actively in this case either way. I won't rally opinion against a ban-lifting arrangement, in the (unlikely) event that the Arbcom should be prepared for one, but don't expect any help from me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

God
Unfortunately, I have not found another source except Kluge yet. But it would be great if you could integrate the already discussed points into the article (since your English is way better than mine lol). Thx. Tājik 13:42, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll have a look again. I was just not yet quite sure how to integrate the "*gheu-" story with the other "*ghu-/*ghau-" version that's already mentioned in the article. Must clarify if these are only different versions of the same root, or substantially different. I was hoping on Dbachmann, he's more knowledgable on those things than I am. Thanks for the constructive discussion. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Standard Modern Greek grammar
Hi, I don't know if you hate this. If you do, revert me; it was a bold move...--Tekleni 20:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hm, to tell you the truth I don't like it too much. It's common practice to have language articles under a generic language name that nevertheless deal predominantly with the modern standard form only. We are already diverging from that scheme (rather too much for some people's taste) by not just leaving it at Greek grammar pure and simple; I think having a double exact specification "Standard" plus "Modern" is a bit much. And as long as noboy is going to write the article on Pontic Greek grammar, I think this is quite safe. (You know the famous Dawkins study on Pontic, do you? :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

How about "Standard Greek grammar"? Modern is a pleonasm anyway. Miskin 00:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Why remove the text about Megalexandros in Koine Greek? You can leave this one there, separately of what you're about to add. It's a beautiful text and in a way relevant to the article (about Alexander III and all). I don't see a reason to remove it. Miskin 00:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * As for the article naming, that's just part of the restructuring we discussed some weeks ago. I thought you agreed on the general scheme. I just started going through with it now.
 * As for the sample texts, please see Talk:Koine Greek. There had been some justified criticism that the transcription models chosen in those texts were unsourced, unprincipled and/or OR, so I thought it best to take new texts where proposed phonetic transcriptions are actually available in the literature. Horrocks, as usual my principal reference. Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: "Sumerian gulf"
Sure, I wouldn't mind at all. I'm pretty positive it was Sargonious. &mdash; Khoikhoi 01:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of alternate names...
Have you noticed that someone got a bot to revert Mywayyy from now on? (was it you?) Check out the recent history of Antalya. :-) &mdash; Khoikhoi 09:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Heheh, noticed it, but no, I'm innocent. Maybe VoA got the hint from Aldux, or from our mysterious friend Scabbers the Rat? Or, much simpler, he was just monitoring WP:AIV. :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:37, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, well whoever's idea it was...I wish it would work for all banned users. &mdash; Khoikhoi 09:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

rat...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Khoikhoi Cockkhoi to be mop :)))) lol --194.254.169.40 17:38, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Copyright violation?
Is this image a copyright violation from here? The user who uploaded it says he made it himself... If you want to really compare them, compare this and this.--Tekleni 15:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks pretty much like it. Tag it as a copyvio and give MA a warning. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:48, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * How do you do that (which templates)? Shouldn't I just tell Duja (who seems to be online at the moment) for him to delete it?--Tekleni 15:54, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Strangely, it doesn't seem to be covered by WP:CSD, because he was claiming it was his own work. But I've tagged it and listed it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/GreekWarrior
Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Requests for arbitration/GreekWarrior. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Requests for arbitration/GreekWarrior/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Requests for arbitration/GreekWarrior/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Arbitration Committee Clerk FloNight 19:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Image
Dear Future Perfect at Sunrise,

It would be a great shame for me if I would transfer an image from an external source and remarked it as "self-made". This image was transferred from an external link and modified by me, using Bannership GIF editor. For your convenience, another version will be uploaded just now. see: Image:Turkish Animated Flag
 * I hope User:Tekleni will contribute to in positive manner; adding some articles, editing old ones with a valuable-neutral data instead of putting radical-national views, deleting marks, reverting the articles,etc.

Regards. Note: You are free to remove(or not) the old picture. Mustafa Akalp 11:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Images
All of two images tagged with "Delete" by me. Sorry for inconvinience. Regards. Mustafa Akalp 12:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * σίγουρα. :-) &mdash; Khoikhoi 17:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Republic of Gumuljina / Turkish Republic of Western Thrace
Hi, if i did not realize the article they merged, it would be nominated for deletion, without any discussion on the talk/discussion page. I know Hectorian and Tekleni from edit wars, that's why i consulted experienced people. I do not want to involve in any edit war, but this time they were so quick in this merging/deleting process, that's the main reason for applying professional help. Actually, i accidentallly saw the article and never edited. Thanks for your consideration. E104421 08:36, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi E, just a few points. First, I noticed you also suspected Hectorian and Tekleni as sockpuppets. I can confirm from personal contact that they are not. Believe me, I know how frustrating it can be sometimes to try to get an edit through against a group of editors who act in concert, but in this case it's really just a group of people who happen to share many of their opinions.
 * Second, about that particular article. It's a bit difficult now for me to reconstruct what actually happened, because the article histories got merged. But apparently, there used to be a small but good stub article at the Republic of Gumuljina location from mid-2005 . Then Mustafa Akalp mistakenly created a new article on the same topic, under a different name Western Thrace Turkish Republic . This was expanded and moved to yet another name Turkish Republic of Western Thrace by Baristarim. This was all perfectly in good faith, but fact is nevertheless that these should never have been two separate articles. Then Hectorian noticed the duplicity of the articles, and made the merge proposal, on 26 September . Mustafa Akalp rejected the proposal but declared he was merging the content from the "Gumuljine" to the "Western Thrace" article (but he apparently lacked understanding of wiki policies regarding mergers and POV forks). . Two weeks later, Tekleni performs the merger back into his preferred location at the "Gumuljine" article, and properly sets a redirect.
 * I don't see where in all this "deletion" comes in. What exactly got deleted or proposed for deletion?
 * So, in all, I can't quite see that this was done without a chance for proper discussion. Well, to say the truth neither Hectorian nor Mustafa seems to have made much of an effort of really arguing why the one title was better than the other. Tekleni was at least giving a proper reason, the Google test. I have no strong opinion either way. But given the fact that there were in effect two weeks notice during which everybody was aware of the problem, and the fact that the "Gumulcine" article was the older (and hence "legitimate") one, I think this wasn't so inappropriate after all. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * One more point, the Republic of Gumuljina was a stub, the other one is a more detailed one. Anyway, nobody used the talk/discussion page, but merged quickly, then nominated the article for deletion. Alex, changed the deletion process and merged the edit histories also. This kind of quick deletion attempts are so common related with turks/turkey related articles. Another example is Armenian rebellions article. The main actors does not differ to much and they communicate each other all the time. If you watch the edit histories of these people, you see their behavior towards turks/turkey related articles more clearly. When it comes to these articles, they do not discuss anything but shaming the articles and their editors as having nationalist pov. I actually did not involved in these, just observed the process, and wrote my comments, my opinion. That's it. Unfortunately, i could not see any good faith in this issue, cause nobody commented on talk/discussion pages and the merging happened during the edit war between Tekleni, Murat Akalp, Hectorian and BarisTarim. I guess Tekleni immediately started quick deletion process by putting the tag but without any comment, of course. You can see the tag here [] (this is Khoikhoi's version, actually there was a previous version but i think deleted while merging the histories). The best thing to do at that time was to protect the article, but i think the aim was to delete the article from wikipedia indefinetely. Regards, E104421 10:32, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, that's the deletion proposal you meant! But that wasn't done in order to actually erase the article, but just as a housekeeping measure to get the two articles merged in the technically appropriate way. Just as it happened in the end. Khoikhoi was right, this is actually how it's done (How to fix cut and paste moves) Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:44, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * All these happened so quickly without any consensus, even without any comment on talk/discussion pages (during an edit war). I wonder why? E104421 10:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * There is no cabal, E104421. I had posted a messange in Mustafa's talk page about this, but i did not get a response... I had also mentioned it to Baris  (who had said we'll have to think about it). so, don't say that the whole merging thing came out from nowhere! if there was no will to talk about it, it doesn't mean that the issue was solved... Hectorian 11:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Dear Hectorian, why didn't you comment on the talk/discussion pages? These are the relevent places to built consensus. You should consider all users, not the editors of the recent versions. It is always better to check the talk/discussion pages before editing and better not to hurry. Regards, E104421 11:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Since these two users were the two most interested in that article, i thought of contacting them first, before making a proposal in the article's talk page... Just to see what their thoughts about this are... M.Akalp did not even replied on that and Baris (i acknowledge that he may had more interesting things to do at the time) left it to the future... Things are much simplier than conspiracies about 'sockpuppetry' and 'cabals' and God knows what else! Hectorian 12:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If all the comments and discussions are done in the article's talk/discussion page, there would be no conspiracies. E104421 12:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I won't disagree on that. But in this case, i had made myself clear a long time ago (links for that are provided). It's not my fault that there was not interest about the rename before. Hectorian 12:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Some views
1-I never aware of that there is an article (named as Republic of Gumuljina) on that state. I started to write a new article(25.09.2006) "Western Trace Turkish Republic"( This is the translation word by word of Turkish name:Batı Trakya Türk Cumhuriyeti..-Official name is in Ottoman Language which you can see in article also) 2-Old article (I awared about it after 25.09.2006, due to edit war) was created firstly at 09.08.2005 and till to 14.08.2006 there were totally 12 edit on this article. As you will see in the historical edits, there is not any data more than a few cantences. Represent Greek POV, categorized under Greek related Categories. There is no any one word about Turks. Settlers, Presidency, Flag( I created flag on my computer,taking dimensions shapes and colors from a printed flag)750,000 Turkish population at that area etc. 3-Approximately,all the information on article added and developped by me, so I can see ethically myself as first editor. In my edits, you will see -as possible as- a NPOV. I put, Greek related categories, stubs, and names in to article. see history from 25.09.2006 till to now. 4-Official name of that state was never be "Republic of Gumuljine", any Greek user can find official name in their archives about this state, since Greece was the first state which recognized this contry.(Greece ceded Alexandroupoli-Turkish: Dedeağaç- to new state. Due to Geopolitic purpose against Bulgaria).Google searchs here, no make much sense since sources of all, two-three Greek site. "Turkish Republic of Western Thrace" is an english name.not local Turkish or Greek. I need your oppinions. Regards Mustafa Akalp 10:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Dear FPatS, here just some points of related article.
 * Unfortunately, I(and most of the Turkish Users) cannot (any valuable) edit due to the nationalist Greek User attacks/rvs.
 * What is sockpuppety.Is it -strictly- necessary to use same IP.See the users; Khoikhoi,Tekleni, Hectorian, AustovoulOs, Yandman, Miskin etc. They are acting together, when one of them made max 3RV on an article, than any other one continue to RV.They informed each other by mails not message on user talk page. See alerts for e-mails on their talk pages.


 * Hi, three points in reply:
 * About your creating the article: Yes, I know you did that in good faith, but of course the dupliate articles had to be cleaned up, by merging, either the one way or the other.
 * About the preferable name: It's important to remember the crucial thing is not what was official at the time, but what's most common in English today. I don't know which is. But it doesn't matter much anyway, just mention all relevant names in the lead and make redirects from everywhere. Who cares what the big bold letters over the article actually say, when all you need is to be able to find the article when you type your preferred name in the searchbox?
 * About "tag-teaming" between the Greek users: There's a thin line. These are all different people with different opinions, I can guarantee that. People teaming up to protect an article against a certain edit may mean two things. They may simply represent consensus. It can be frustrating to be on the wrong end of a consensus and to be unable to get your edit through, but that's just tough luck. Or they may be a team of abusive POV-pushers trying to silence an opposing view. I don't see that in this case, but believe me I keep my eyes open for such things. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:33, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * If you check their edit histories, you'll see more clearly. Just take a look at the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus article, you see the same people from the edit history, but no discussion/talk. Check their edit histories, compare the articles related with turks/turkey they edited, you'll understand what i mean? E104421 11:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep, I can see where in that case the behaviour may have been crossing the line into being uncooperative. You mean the thing about that British court and "having jurisdiction" that you wanted to include? Yes, that would have warranted more constructive discussion. Will have a word with them. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:11, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, this was not my edit, i also mentioned after the page protection in the talk page. I realized systematic pov edits there and decided to put the removed parts back. At the first time, when i tried to put the removed sentences back, i mistakenly revert the article due to edit conflict with another user (heavy traffic), then i corrected but this made no sense, i decided to quit editing. There is another user Aristovoul0s who put "totallydisputed" tag, without any comment or discussion in the talk/discussion page. Tekleni and Hectorian supported him. At the end of the edit war between Murat Akalp, Tekleni and Aristovoul0s, the article was protected but unfortunately with the "totallydisputed" tag. Even the SysOp Aecis edited the article, involved in the issue. After the protection, only Hectorian replied at the talk page. For Tekleni and Aristovoul0s, i guess, no need to comment cause the article turned out to be "totally disputed". I tried to explain in the talk page that POV and factual inaccuracy are quite different issues but nobody listened to me. If you watch their edit histories and compare their contributions to turks/turkey related articles, you'll see what i try to explain. E104421 11:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Another example, please check the edit history of the Template:Turkic-speaking nations, again hectorian, tekleni, clevelander (who started the deletion process of the article Armenian rebellions) all together are in edit war. This collaborations can also be proven from their edit histories. E104421 07:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know about Clevelander, but as for Tekleni, Niko and Hectorian, yes, you don't need to convince me they work together, I know that. They are friends. They happen to be my friends too, by the way. That in itself is really nothing you can do anything against. But I must agree, they've lately been getting involved in far too many petty edit wars for my taste too. :-( Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * What one should always remember is that it takes two sides to edit war. E104421 who keeps repeating how uninvolved he is was just now (tag-team) edit warring at the Turkic state/nation template. Take Annan Plan for Cyprus for example, now protected, but being trolled by Mustafa Akalp. Check he revision history, he was insisting on adding unwarranted and unexplained tags. When asked why the tags were being added, no response. I guess that is OK though... because different standards apply to Turks than to Greeks/Armenians. I don't know about E104421, but I have never refused a chance to discuss an article (unlike Mustafa, who probably hasn't edited an talkpage of an editable article in his life).--Tekleni 09:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Just a comment, i'm not taking any side Tekleni. For the Template:Turkic-speaking, my proposal is different than others. If the template is to show Turkic speaking nations or states, this should be done properly. There is no need to push the same arguments done at Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus again. Regards, E104421 16:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

TRWT
Regards. Mustafa Akalp 10:47, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Please check the Turkish Republic of Western Thrace to see what happened.


 * Please, you're not helping your case by labelling other editors vandals. I know Tekleni, he may be sometimes a bit quick with thre revert buttons, but he's definitely not a vandal. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Translation
"Garbi Trakya Müstakil Hükümeti"; Ottoman language. Garbi; Batı-Turkish, West/Western-English Trakya; Trakya-Turkish, Thrace-English Müstakil; Bağımsız-Turkish, Independent-English Hükümet-i; Devlet-Turkish, Government/State-English

Regards Mustafa Akalp 11:18, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

TRWT-Flag&Name..source.
Flag of Turkish Republic of Western Thrace Here is the source for flag and name of the state.It is obviously determined as; Turkish; Tarihteki ilk Türk cumhuriyeti olan Batı Trakya Türk Cumhuriyeti bayrağı. English; The flag of Turkish Republic of Western Thrace which is the first Turkish republic in the history. Gümülcine/Gumuljine is a city only(Capital city of state). This is another example of nationalist Greek approach to the events. By the rename a state (by its capital city's name), somebody tries to degrade the importance of a historical state. What is the next step?

Regards. Mustafa Akalp 17:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Template
Hi! can u imagine how a template 'Greek-speaking (something)' would be if we followed the same format as in the proposed Template talk:Turkic-speaking nations, by including autonomous regions and peoples? just a pov-fork example: Greece, Cyprus (including TRNC, of course), Northern Epirus (as de jure should-be autonomous under the Corfu Protocol, parts of Southern Italy (where Griko is officially recognised as a minority language), Imbros and Tenedos (as de jure should-be autonomous under the Treaty of Lausanne), etc. I think we should not open this 'gate'... Hectorian 10:09, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't really see the parallel here. I was under the impression that these Russian entities are set up explicitly with the purpose of providing ethnically defined autonomy to those various groups. And that the respective Turkic languages therefore have some official status within these entities. That may be true even if the Turkic groups may not necessarily form a strong majority in all of them - I have no knowledge about that. So, in a certain sense, these entities are really officially "Turkic-speaking", by design. See it more in parallel with a hypothetical "Celtic-speaking countries" (I'm too lazy to look up if that actually exists). Of course you'd list not just Ireland, but also Scotland and Wales and Isle of Man, and probably also the Bretagne (even that is not even a subnational autonomous entity). Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, in short, the Russian republics are de jure and de facto officially Turkic-speaking. but Crimea in Ukraine is none of the two. also TRNC is de jure non-existing, but de facto existing (in some way). Imbros and Tenedos' autonomy is de jure existing, but de facto not... If u check the countries and subnational turkic-speaking entities listed and compare them with the map here, u will see what i mean by saying pov-fork... (maybe i am confusing the meaning of 'pov-fork':/, though...). Hectorian 10:43, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I think you are :-) A POV fork is when you write a new article that competes with another on the same topic that already exists. - As for what to include, I think in the present case it'll be quite okay to draw the line at things that are really state-like (if subnational) entities, like those Russian "republics". Not just areas that have a regionally specific minority status (we're not going to list Western Thrace as a Turkic-speaking "country", obviously.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Damn! i should had said just 'POV';-). I am really not in favour of including subnational entities in such templates... Better to have really sovereighn nations, without having to think which subnational entity is state-like or has enough autonomy to be included. btw, W. Thrace is not autonomous, but the 1/3 of its population has special religious minority privilleges. Hectorian 11:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Maps
I just saw Greece's article in the German wikipedia. don't u think that the location map there is better than the one that we have here?: EU highlighted and then the member-state over-highlighted. Hectorian 11:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Try it out. The file is already on Meta, so you can use it right away. It might be a bit big, make sure we don't bloat the infobox too much. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:26, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

About the polytonic: its not a big deal. u may add it if it's for 'beautifing' reasons;-) Hectorian 11:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Personal assalut&affront, baffling, change the target.

 * What one should always remember is that it takes two sides to edit war. E104421 who keeps repeating how uninvolved he is was just now (tag-team) edit warring at the Turkic state/nation template. Take Annan Plan for Cyprus for example, now protected, but being trolled by Mustafa Akalp. Check he revision history, he was insisting on adding unwarranted and unexplained tags. When asked why the tags were being added, no response. I guess that is OK though... because different standards apply to Turks than to Greeks/Armenians. I don't know about E104421, but I have never refused a chance to discuss an article (unlike Mustafa, who probably hasn't edited an talkpage of an editable article in his life).--Tekleni 09:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * This is an obvious assault and affront to my personality. I required an excuse
 * 1-Annan Plan for Cyprus; I put tags, aiming, a-to alert the readers, b-to invite other users to contribute the development of article. Why a neutral user can be disturbed due to a "Disputable" tag. Unfortunately, without making any contibution on article (me-myself or any other user), article reverted(deleting tags) without no any word of explanation (on talk page also).Tekleni reverted 8 times without any addition/contribution between 06.10.2006-11.06.2006. With the last revert, there was a self-explanatory message on talk page from Tekleni; Mustafa, what is your problem? Fix it, no one's stopping you... lazily slapping an unexplained tag on and doing nothing else approaches trolling.--Tekleni 16:17, 11 October 2006 (UTC). I required Page protection, in this period. Tags removed by Tekleni 2 more times. No body can accuse me due to putting tags to dispute on page. But I can.
 * 2-Edit-Rv war was not started by me. Till to, attacks of Tekleni and some other users, I newer made reverts unnecessay/without looking consensus.During the my first one-two days in wikipedia, yes. But when I took some messages/warning, I saw the  mentality of wiki and stopped such a works. Any body can see my efforts and suggestions in the talk pages of many users like Khoikhoi, Hectorian etc and talk pages of some articles on my efforts looking consensus.see my contributions also.
 * 3-About Tekleni; Nobody can not find a positive contribution to any article  Tekleni Contributions.Tekleni focused on Turkey related articles/templates or some other similar articles to put anti-Turkc POV to these material.Contibutions are;some times obviously anti-Turk,some times hidden in  other phrases that change the meaning in the same way. Is he a (good faith specialist) on Turkey, this is a question which replied by his works.
 * 4-Group works; Why a wikipedian need e-mail comminication with some others. If these users are working on same article, and one of them alerts others for e-mail after his/her third RV, this matter must be focused.
 * To neutral Greek and other users, lets help to stop nationalist approaches in wikipedia and lets make contributions not war.
 * TRNC-name, There is discussions on this matter. Remember the "unrecognized" or "recognized only by" remaks. What is the referenced item? which one is "recognized only..", N Cyprus/ Norhern Cyprus or Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. There is no any state which name is "N Cyprus", otherwise there would be no complaint abot that state.In other word there is a state, Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus that complained about its recognision.

Regards Mustafa Akalp 12:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Just a comment, i'm not taking any side Tekleni. For the Template:Turkic-speaking, my proposal is different than others. If the template is to show Turkic speaking nations or states, this should be done properly. There is no need to push the same arguments done at Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus again. Regards, E104421 16:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Image at pontic genocide
Ok, you are right. Mitsos 09:05, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The truth about Dahn's attitude concerning Constantinople link
I saw you participated in this discussion in Phanariotes article about Constantinople link. I don't know what Dahn told you, but his attitude is totally inacceptable! Nobody told him not to link or use Instabul! What we say is that we should also mention and link Constantinople, because the term was still in use in this period and, according to the article about Constantinople, it remained the official name until 1930 (this information is citated in this article).

So, why, on earth, don't we have the right to link Constantinople? And why is he making such a fuss about a bloody link?! I think I'm a reasonable contributor around here and I've never participated in any edit war. Hell, I've contributed 3 FAs here (and my 4th FAC, Demosthenes is on right now), I had disagreements and fierce debates, but I always managed to find a compromize, even in the worst quarrels, and I think I've earned some respect for my co-operative spirit. Unfortunately, Dahn shows no spirit of co-operation and has repeatedly violated the 3R rule, but until now we did not report him. But that's the end! He crossed the line.

Three editors keep telling him why he is wrong. And we ask him to throw a poll, if he insists in his opinion. But no! He keeps violating the 3R rule! Well, Nico Silver reported him and I'll report him once again, if he repeats a new violation with me.

I'm sorry for my language, but I wanted you to know what is going on around here. I'm furious with this guy! Cheers!--Yannismarou 09:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * For the record: I have not approached Future Perfect. He did. In fact, I have not answered any of his posts up to now. And I believe Future Perfect's comments were related to the issue of what tolink, just as mine were. I had asked the users to engage in debate about the link where it originates, not on trelated pages, and I have not drawn any otside support to prove a point. Yes, I have broken the rule; at the same time (and this is not an excuse), I have said that, if the Constantinople article was to have contained the information relevant for the Phanariotes article, I would have kept thjat link and that link only. Dahn 09:58, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

To Fut.Perf.: Where? •N i k o S il v e r• 22:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Here:

Names of Istanbul

 * I can confirm Dahn never asked me to intervene; I was just seeing Niko getting into this embroglio with him and thought I'd add my 2c. I happen to think Dahn is right about a couple things. He was doing a great job on that article, and my feeling is you others are now quibbling over the color of the bikeshed. Which is bad.
 * As for the editorial question of where and how to link, my own preferred solution would be a single piped link: Constantinople or Constantinople (Istanbul) . "Constantinople" is the word that ought to appear predominantly in the text (as per Gdanskzig precedent, if you must), but "Istanbul" is the article that holds the information relevant for the reader at that point. If I read in article X that X lived in Y, and I click on the Y link, I want to be taken to an article that talks about Y at the time X lived there.
 * For heavens sake, start thinking about such matters from the perspective of an outside uninvolved reader. We want links that lead people to what they expect to find, not to what the authors of the article happen to be fond of.
 * As for the factual issue of the "official" usage of "Constantinople" vs "Istanbul" in Ottoman times, I'm now positive our current articles are wrong about the alleged "renaming". "Istanbul" was in full use all the time. I got the sources just today. Expect a rewrite of the Names of Istanbul article soon. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I would agree to your nowikis (sic) above, but kindly also observe Macrakis' position in the said article (both article history and talk). You'll find your re-write was anticipated like Apo michanis Theos! •N i k o S il v e r• 23:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Future Perfect, i have added 3 citations from BBC, Britannica and Lecicorient in Constantinople about the remaning issue. btw, where did u come in the conclusion that the renaming is "alleged"? Hectorian 23:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I have no problem believing something happened about that name in 1930. I don't know what it was, but I note that all these sources fail to actually name the law or decree or whatever and cite what exactly it did. Whatever it was, it can't have been a renaming to "Istanbul", because we (or rather I, for the moment) have positive proof the name was already in use before, including official use. And it certainly wasn't a renaming from "Constantinople", because that name quite definitely had never been in use by the Ottomans. Most probably it was simply a deprecation of the several alternative names beside "Istanbul" ("Kostantiniyye", "Islambol" or whatever, not "Constantinople"). Clearly the city had previously had a variety of different "official" names, and maybe some decision was taken to officially reaffirm that Istanbul was going to be the only one from now on. I'd still like to see the actual law. My impression is those Western references are simply perpetuating a very imprecise version of what happened, one copying from the other without much thought or research. Contrary to a wide-spread wikimyth, Britannica and other tertiary references are not always "reliable sources". More later. Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, "Kostantiniyye" was indeed in use by the Ottomans (i mean official use). "Istanbul", according to the most (and the most reliable sources) comes from the greek phrase "to/in the City". about "Islambol", i tend to believe it is a modern turkish folk etymology (if u consider that it is claimed this term was in use since 10th century, it is obvious that it is false... U can't name "plenty of Islam" a city that hardly had any muslim...). I do believe that the name "Istanbul" did not suddenly appear in 1930, though. It must have had some use in the past, but this means simply... nothing! The Greeks used to refer to the city as "Poli" from the early middle ages, but this was not official, and as such we cannot dispute the article Constantinople on that... not to mentioned that it was also called "Vasilevousa"... The fact that according to the 1930 law the city was officially renamed to "Istanbul" and that the rest of the world begun to call the city that as late as the '60s, does not leave much of a choice of any kind of serious dispute... At least, IMO... Hectorian 00:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Wait till you see more. "Istanbul" was in use since some time in the middle ages (long before 1453), and it was one among several "official" names during Ottoman times (and the only one also in widespread use in normal speech). "Islambol" was coined shortly after 1453. "Kostantiniyye" was used until c. the 17th century on coins and some official documents, and then again later in the 19th century as a Turkish equivalent to the foreign usage of "Constantinople". I still haven't found out what exactly happened in 1930; according to some web pages it was simply the time when the Turkish Post Office started refusing to deliver mail addressed to "Constantinople". I.e. in other words, the decision in 1930 was to begin to force use of "Istanbul" on the outside world, not so much a change in internal usage itself. Interestingly, a big multi-volume "Encyclopedia of Istanbul" published by the Turkish Ministry of Culture has a big article on "Names of Istanbul", with a very detailed discussion of usage in Ottoman times, but not a word about anything that happened in 1930. Can't really have been anything very decisive. Probably the usage of all the alternative names by the Ottoman authorities simply came to an end naturally after the begin of the republic, and then in 1930 they decided to officially deprecate them and ask the outside world to stop using "Constantinople". Fut.Perf. ☼ 01:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Interesting... i'll be waiting to see something more and from third party sources, though:). btw, i did not know that there had been used such means to force the world call it "Istanbul":/. Also, if i were u, i would be suspicious reading that encyclopedia, since it doesn't say a word about anything that happened in 1930... Ciao Hectorian 02:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, those Turkish language encyclopedias (actually, I've worked through two) are made for the Turkish market and they would presumably have no problem talking about something their beloved Atatürk did, if he did anything notable about the name. Incidentally, they do talk about a proposal, in the 1930s, to rename the city to "Atakent" in his honour. 1930, as far as I've been able to find out, was the time of two laws that might have some effect here: A reorganisation of local administration structures, and the change to the Latin alphabet. There's still nothing reliable out there on the web about the "renaming" except dozens of sources that just uncritically reproduce the Britannica remark. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Piri Reis, the famous Ottoman traveller, referred to it as 'Islambol'. Last year, there was a talk that attracted Orthodox Greeks and Muslim Greeks (Turkish Greeks). They spoke Greek and both peoples referred to the 'Poli'. The problem with 'Constantinople' is that many Turks and Greeks associate it as the Greek appelation and forget that it belongs to both; after all, it was the capital of the Ottoman empire. Constantinople, the city of a thousand minarets from where the Sultan rules over the half the world and heads the Muslim people (that sort of thing). Politis 14:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)