User talk:Gabel

Welcome!
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Regarding edits to Beltane
Greetings, Gabel. While I realize the words are superficially similar, there is no relationship between the Irish word Beltane and the Canaanite/Phoenician/Hebrew word Ba'al. The languages are quite different, and Beltane in Irish has a radically different etymology and meaning. Justin Eiler 02:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Gabel, the assertion that Irish Beltane (an Indo-European language) and Canaanite/Hebrew/Phoenician Ba'al (all Semitic languages) is an extraordinary claim that requires documentation from a reliable source. Please provide sources for such a claim before re-instating the assertion on the article. I have started a section on the talk page for this discussion. Justin Eiler 02:55, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Greetings, Gabel,

You said:


 * There is a clear historical connection from the Semetic sun god Ba'al through the Celtic sun god Bel to the feast of Bel-tane which translated means "Fire of Bel" or "Bright Fire". Bel is known as the bright and shining one, a Celtic Sun God.


 * BAL was the Semetic sun god. He was the great nature god of Babylon holding the power of life and fertility and frequently referred to in Hebrew texts. His name Bal or Baal signifies Lord and Master. He was also the supreme deity of the Carthaginians. The Celts of Gaul worshipped him as the Sun and called him Bel, Belin or Belinus.

Gabel, I have heard this assertion when I was growing up, and I believed it for many years. Indeed, I can point you towards not only Christian apologists who make this error, but Pagan, too. However, the Canaanite and Hebrew languages are Semitic, whereas Irish is a Indo-European language. The two languages are unrelated--Irish did not descend from any of the Semitic languages, nor did the Semitic languages descend from Irish or any other Indo-European language.

Now, to assert a "clear historical connection" is all well and good--however, the proof is not only lacking, the evidence is plainly against the assertion that you make. Please look at the sections on Semitic languages and Indo-European languages and you will clearly see that they are not only unrelated, but radically different.

The connection that you are asserting is of a type commonly called Folk etymology: "Most look simple and plausible while they often depend on confusion between (near-)homophones." I invite you to re-examine this claim in light of the distance between Semitic and Indo-European languages. Justin Eiler 03:39, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Edward Conger
I just thought you might want to take a look at the revisions I made to Edward Conger, an article you created last month. The article came to my attention because I am writing articles on all the former judges of the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York. In addition to adding some more information, I was able to link the article to a number of other existing articles, making it more likely that other people would read and learn from it. I hope you like the changes and perhaps our paths will cross on another article soon. Regards, Newyorkbrad 01:14, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

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Moravian mission at Shekomeko
Thomas.macmillan has nominated Moravian mission at Shekomeko for speedy deletion. As you appear to be away at the moment I've saved the text (below) so you can reinstate it at some point should you so wish. An alternative would be to merge it into Shekomeko. It certainly needs a reference or two. You should also either change the phrases that are causing the contention or put them in quotation marks and reference their source. 91.104.164.145 (talk) 16:06, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete|Unencyclopedic and racist POV on Native Americans}} Cleanup-tone|date=February 2007}}

Up to the early 18th century, the Mahican Indians, a native Algonquin tribe and a branch of the Lenni Lenape or Delaware Nation populated the east bank of the Hudson River in what is today eastern Dutchess County, New York, and western Connecticut.

Aboriginal life in early Dutchess County did not have the notorious conflicts of other regional tribes such as the Esopus of Ulster County across the river, but there were significant historical events. Among the most notable examples was the establishment of a Moravian mission at Shekomeko in 1740, which was located where today's hamlet of Bethel in the town of Pine Plains, NY is now.

The Moravian Church was founded during the 15th century in ancient Bohemia and Moravia in what is the present-day Czech Republic. The Moravian Society set up its first missionary effort in America during the late 1730’s and was established at Bethlehem, Pennsylvania in 1740. The Moravian Bishop August Gottlieb Spangenberg sent Christian Henry Rauch to New York City in 1740 on a mission to preach and convert any native peoples he could find.

Rauch arrived in New York on July 16, 1740. His work began when he met up with a delegation of drunken Mahicans in the city to settle land issues. He managed to have a sober conversation with the group and convinced them of his serious intention to instruct them on the ways of the white man. Eager to learn more, the Mahican Chiefs Tschoop and Shabash invited Rauch to visit their Dutchess County village to teach them. In September 1740 they led him through the unbroken wilderness to Shekomeko where a Moravian mission was established and the two Indians chiefs were converted to the Moravian faith. In January 1742, Rauch was accompanied by Shabash together with Seim and Kiop, who traveled to the Pennsylvania community for their baptism. Rauch's first convert Chief Tschoop, was lame and unable to make the journey. Upon their baptism the three were given the Christian names of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. After the group returned to Shekomeko, Tschoop was baptized as John on April 16, 1742.

By summer 1742, Shekomeko was established as the first native Christian congregation in America. On November 1, 1742, a missionary by the name of Gottlob Buettner brought his wife to the mission. At the end of 1742, another missionary by the name of Martin Mack and his wife, Jeannette Rowe joined the missionary effort. Rauch visited Bethlehem and returned in early 1743 with his new wife. Two more missionaries each with their wives followed soon after.

On March 13, 1743, the distribution of Holy Communion marked a milestone in the development of the Indian congregation. In July 1743, a Moravian chapel was built and dedicated at Shekomeko. By the end of 1743, the congregation of baptized Indians numbered 63.

The lives of the Indians at the mission were greatly improved through the Moravian efforts. Indians from all over the surrounding area flocked to Shekomeko. Two satellite missionary outposts were established in Kent, Connecticut and on the New York - Connecticut border.

The increasing Moravian influence and success in defending their burgeoning following became disturbing to the regions white colonists. False rumors of fictitious atrocities were spread, some fearful settlers had left their farms and the authorities were petitioned to intervene. Resentment by European settlers in the area quickly grew. The Moravian missionaries exposed traders illegally selling alcohol to the natives and provided legal advice that kept them from being cheated. Many whites resented the missionaries interfering with "nature taking its course." The Moravian missionaries were repeatedly detained, interrogated, fined and released. Powerful local colonial interests collaborated, causing Governor George Clinton to summon the Moravians to account for their missionary activities. Alleged to be Papist and conspiring with the outlawed Roman Catholic order of Jesuits, the Moravians successfully defended themselves and were exonerated when no link to the Jesuits could be found. However, they were admonished to cause no further suspicions.

The settler’s enmity for the Moravians continued to grow. They persisted to oppose the Shekomeko mission and were determined to eradicate it. A law was enacted on September 21, 1744 forbidding anyone from residing with Indians in order to Christianize them. The Moravian mission was finally doomed when the provincial assembly adopted a law on September 22, 1744 that required anyone choosing to live among the Indians to take an Oath to the Crown, obtain consent of the council and obtain a license from the Governor to do so. The Moravians religious principles forbade against taking oaths.

On October 27, 1744 the governor ordered the Moravian missionaries to "desist from further teaching and depart the province". Then on December 15, 1744, the sheriff and three peace officers of Dutchess County appeared at Shekomeko under orders from Governor Clinton to give the missionaries notice to cease their teachings. The Moravian leaders were summoned to appear in court at Poughkeepsie. Upon hearing the State Act read out; its provisions were considered too onerous for continuing further evangelizing.

The Moravians missionary venture was maintained sporadically for several years thereafter, but the outcome was determined. In 1746 area settlers petitioned the governor to issue to them a warrant authorizing the killing of Shekomeko Indians. While the petition was not granted, upon hearing about the call for their extermination, the last ten families of 44 persons, all that remained of the original 8,000 member tribe 100 years before, left Shekomeko and dispersed into extinction.

The Moravian missionaries brought education, industry and the arts to an already devastated people. Their undertaking at Shekomeko was a rare instance of good work in a bad world. The Moravians did not attempt to subjugate, but enlighten those native people to exist in harmony with the overwhelming onslaught of the new order. While their mission was ended because of ignorant fear and selfish greed, the lesson of Shekomeko shines bright in the dark history of European conquest of North America.

The great purpose of the Moravians missionary effort was not to eradicate the Indian culture but to save it from extinction. The missionaries respected the native Indian ethic. They worked to give them hope and reestablish their morale. They worked to teach them enough to live together with the dominating white men through instruction in their belief in the Christian ethic and providing the skills needed to enable him to hold his own.

Shekomeko, though as a mission it came to an untimely end, was not a failure. It was rather a noble example of a sincere endeavor to reconcile an otherwise doomed culture that will live in history.

Category:Settlements in New York]] Category:History of New York]] Category:History of the America (North) Province of the Moravian Church]]

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