User talk:GadigalGuy

Welcome!
Hello, GadigalGuy, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:
 * Introduction and Getting started
 * Contributing to Wikipedia
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page and How to develop articles
 * How to create your first article
 * Simplified Manual of Style

You may also want to complete the Wikipedia Adventure, an interactive tour that will help you learn the basics of editing Wikipedia. You can visit the Teahouse to ask questions or seek help. Need some ideas about what kind of things need doing? Try the Task Center.

Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or, and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! Laterthanyouthink (talk) 01:29, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Indigenous names, History of Australia
Hi and welcome, GadigalGuy. The discussion in History of Australia Talk has only just begun. Please suggest there how the names should be used. And please always sign your posts with 4 tildes, which will automatically add your name. Errantius (talk) 01:32, 3 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi GadigalGuy, it can be frustrating when your contributions have been reverted, so its nice to see others maing a point of welcoming you to Wikipedia. I understand and respect the need for Australian history to respect and include first nations people - indeed respect and inclusion applies equally to Australia's present and future. Even place names can be controversial, Uluru was controversial at first and took a while for to gain traction or an example outside of Australia is Derry or Londonderry which remains controversial 400 years later. The first point is that it's ok to disagree - with me or any other editor - as you have now discovered the place to discuss disagreements about the content of an article is the talk page. The way that wikipedia attempts to deal with controversies about the content of articles is by way of what are called the 5 pillars - as an encyclopedia, it doesn't lead (described as original research), it follows (the reliable sources).


 * If I am reading an article that refers to Kamay, how do I know that is the first nations name for what Cook called Botany Bay? The Cadigal people on the north shore might have used a different name to the Gweagal people on the south. It could be invented, it might be a real word for a more specific place (satirised in Babakiueria) or something completely different, like the myth that kangaroo means "I don't understand". Wikipedia recognises that its usefulness depends on material being verifiable, which means that there must be a reliable source. The article Kamay Botany Bay National Park relies on this source which is good for some of the history of the area & identifies other useful sources. Perversely though, while it discusses the origins of Kurnell, it doesn't mention why it is called Kamay Botany Bay NP - for that you would need a different source, eg or


 * History wars are fun if you're into that, but it can be a frustrating experience. If you are looking for less controversial areas or a place to take a break from controversy, I would suggest articles about specific places like Botany Bay or specific events, such as Myall Creek massacre. Like I said, welcome & I'm happy to help if you would like it. --Find bruce (talk) 03:08, 3 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the welcome, and  (Hopefully I've tagged you correctly), I'm going to compose a list of place names (I'll probably end up having the full list here so I can refer to it in future) because that I can do easily, finding sources is not as easy, particularly with some place names I know of being passed down verbally rather than documented physically. If you'd like to help in finding appropriate sources as I work through creating the list, that would be greatly appreciated. Ideally I'd like to see most places with both their Indigenous and Colonial names as that allows people to understand the place better (as you suggest, Bruce, if the article only refers to Kamay, people who don't know that name wouldn't know where it was referring to), but obviously what is ideal is also a huge task that will probably take many years to be fully adopted, but we've got to start somewhere to improve the understanding of Indigenous history so it's a small step forward, I think. GadigalGuy (talk) 04:20, 3 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Good to have you on board, GadigalGuy (and I'm not sure why I didn't get pinged, because your formatting looks correct to me - but I got an email notification because of this page being automatically added to my watch list after I added the Welcome panel). This sounds like a great project which I am sure will be welcomed and useful. Some of those names are already documented, and I have been trying to add Kaurna and other South Australian place names and at least a mention of pre-colonial inhabitation whenever I work on a local article. There's a lot to take in when you first start editing, and I agree with much of what Find bruce says above. A couple of suggestions (no offence if you ignore them!). You might find it more convenient to move the lists of placenames and useful resources either onto your user page, or into a sandbox (you can create multiple ones under different names - I just use sequential numbers), as talk pages can sometimes get cluttered or grow very long, and things can get lost in them. Also, are you aware of WikiProject Australia (discussion/noticeboard here)? Lastly, at some point, when time permits, it would be great to have your input on a draft style guide I started knocking up a long time ago, about best practice terminology for matters relating to (Australian) Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 06:57, 3 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the suggestions, it makes sense to have the separate sandbox page for the list to keep it organised, so I've gone ahead and done that. Wasn't sure what the sandbox was before your suggestion. I didn't know about WikiProject Australia either, but I'll definitely be checking it out and hopefully contributing. And sure, I'd be happy to look over the style guide, one thing I've seen used a lot on wikipedia is 'Aboriginal (or Indigenous) Australians' which some academic guides suggest is acceptable, but others suggest has connotations of ownership, which I can see - it's one reason I try to stick to the more neutral 'Indigenous Peoples' term, or a more specific 'country' name - ie. Gadigal for myself or a broader Eora Peoples, as there are many Indigenous Nations with very different cultural practices rather than one collective 'Aboriginal' Peoples, if that makes sense. GadigalGuy (talk) 06:49, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, most of the style guides suggest using specific nation/country/language name if the person identifies as such, or the topic is specific to the area. I tried to review as many reliable source style guides as I could (AIATSIS features prominently, here and also with language names), with a view to condensing it all into a single MOS-type of guide. It could be a little while until I get my head back into it, but FYI if you want to have a look at what I started drafting up, here are the background work (and see the talk page for some discussion - feel free to ping me there) and the draft WIP. I also tried to incorporate some of this into the Indigenous Australians terminology section. That article is a difficult beast too! Oh, and WP:ABOUTSAND provides a bit of info about sandboxes, fyi. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 11:27, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Indigenous Place Names List
>>> Moved to sandbox - Indigenous Place Names <<<

Indigenous Place Names List
This might be useful: List of Noongar sites in the City of Melville. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:00, 12 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Definitely will be! Thanks Mitch!


 * GadigalGuy (talk) 06:59, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Also: Mitch Ames (talk) 08:36, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * https://www.boodjar.sis.uwa.edu.au/index.htm
 * https://www.derbalnara.org.au/nyungar-boodjar
 * https://gnarlaboodjamap.dlgsc.wa.gov.au/#/home

Please hang in there
I too have found similar attempts of mine frustrated by the same kinds of behaviour that now seem to frustrate you. Please don’t burn out, more sound-minded contributors are needed. Unfortunately it sometimes takes a long time to change something that really ought to change now. But the optimist in me believes there is always a middle ground, which is at minimum a starting point.

Two other effort that will almost certainly also benefit from your drive are OpenStreetMap (see example) and Wikidata (see example). Whenever I find the Aboriginal name for a place reliably, I try to add it. The more names are added, the more Aboriginal names eclipse English names when OpenStreetMaps are rendered with the relevant preferences for example. One challenge I find though is that there isn’t always a direct correlation. For example, a river might be called Canning River, but the upper and lower parts have different Noongar names without me knowing exactly where one ends and the other begins. Betterkeks (talk) 05:57, 13 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for writing this, I appreciate it and it's reassuring to know I'm not the only one.


 * I'll definitely get involved with the OpenStreetMap & Wikidata, I've actually been looking for something like them for a while now, figured editing the wikipedia articles directly was a good starting point because I didn't know where else to look, but I'd say those are what I'm after, so thanks!


 * GadigalGuy (talk) 06:57, 13 March 2021 (UTC)


 * You’re most welcome. If you want an introduction and place to start with OpenStreetMap (OSM), I’m happy to help, or at least try. Same for Wikidata. Betterkeks (talk) 10:43, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi!
G'day, Gadi! I came across your work and just wanted to say big thanks for what you're aiming to improve on Wikipedia. It's also lovely to see another Aboriginal contributer on this site. HSIEteacher (talk) 10:19, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Place Names
Hi Gadi!

I just saw your place names. Last year I did an investigation in the North Shore and Central Coast names. Would you be interested in me sharing that through? I remember most of my sources were from the Darkinjung LALC, Triple M (weird one), Kur-ing-gai Council, some journals from the 'explorers' (colonisers). For instance, I found out that Pattonga means 'oysters' (and I was given the Dreaming story related to it). I found it frustrating because there's a lot of Aboriginal words, but hardly any of them have been sourced to WHICH language group its from. And then there's the whole issue with the 'Guringai' language records... I think what you're compiling is so interesting and important! Also, I can help with the names of Brisbane + Yuggerah suburbs. Most of them will mean brown snake, ahah. HSIEteacher (talk) 11:25, 24 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for getting in contact . I don't really use Wikipedia much now... had a random burst of energy to try and contribute a few months back but that quickly faded because it was more challenging than it should've been. That said, yes, please feel free to share those names & sources here and I'll add them to the list. My biggest difficulty with it is finding sources, most of the place names I know have been passed down/in general conversation with elders, and although oral histories are still recognised outside Wikipedia, some contributors on Wikipedia don't think it's acceptable - which I can understand, solid evidence is important, but there's just an obvious issue with that rigidity, in that Indigenous Peoples were literally forced to abandon language to assimilate with the colonisers, and in that process, records were destroyed - so historical sources other than oral recordings may not exist at all, or coloniser diaries may exist with a roughly correct version but differs from oral history and yet takes priority because its the solid evidence out of the two. That gets frustrating too. On the bright side, the sandbox list is safe from that rigidity so progress can still be made in some way. GadigalGuy (talk) 10:43, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Style guide
Hi again. I'm sorry to see that you haven't been active for a while, and hoping that you will return to editing. I'm just pinging you here with a note that I am trying to revive and get a style guide for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander naming and related issues off the ground. If you would like to participate in the discussion, please have a look at the recent posts on this page and offer any opinions, criticisms or comments that occur to you. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 07:04, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I've distanced myself a bit from contributing on Wikipedia, I was spending far too much energy here without much to show for it in the end... I'll still login from time to time but I've got some other projects that are getting most of my attention now. Happy to have a look at the style guide and join in on that when I'm around though. GadigalGuy (talk) 10:49, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi Gadigalguy, and thanks for getting back to me. I understand your frustrations - editing here can be a great time and energy sink and there are many challenges to deal with, including other editors sometimes! I will respond to your comments on that page - much appreciated. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 00:09, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Other projects
HI GadigalGuy, thanks for your leading work in this area. I've been doing a bit here and there as well, and it mostly doesn't get messed with or if it does one of the vandalism fixers will get in there and fix it before I have to. Sorry you've had a lot of trouble, especially with oral history usage. Wikipedia needs to up their game in these regards. Hope you're doing well and I would like to hear about any other projects you're working on! Poketama (talk) 20:19, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Aboriginal placenames style guidelines debate
Hi there, there is a discussion raging at the moment that will hopefully lead to a formal end to the debate and edit warring around inclusion of Aboriginal placenames in articles. I have greatly appreciated your input before on this issue and if you have the energy it'd be great to have your contribution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Australian_Wikipedians%27_notice_board#Indigenous_names Poketama (talk) 12:43, 4 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I attempted to go back to some of your earlier work from 2021 on the 'History of Australia' page and add it back in. I'm sorry to see that so much got gutted and I hope that it is more palatable now to those who would seek to revert all mention of Aboriginal history. Poketama (talk) 11:44, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Indigenous names
Howdy. Try not to get 'too' discouraged concerning the topic. GoodDay (talk) 14:41, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you I appreciate it GadigalGuy (talk) 15:35, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Gadi and Eora
Hello Gadigal Guy

Hope you don't mind my dropping in on your talk page. It looks like we disagree on whether there are sufficient reliable sources to state that Gadi is the Dharug word for Sydney and Eora is the the word for Greater Sydney. I would like to make it clear that my intention isn't to remove Indigenous names from this article but rather to add them wherever I can find highly reliable sources which are unlikely to be challenged. As discussed on the Sydney Talk page, I've drafted some changes to the article and I would be grateful for any comments you might have if you have the time. Please feel free to drop any comments on my Talk page if you wish. /Sandbox2 Thanks.

Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 03:20, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Sydney article
Hello Gadigal Guy

Sorry our suggested compromise on Aboriginal names didn't get up. I have added the new sections to the article as per my draft. As previously discussed, I agree with your comment that the article currently treats Aboriginal people in Sydney as an historical thing. What would you think of a new section titled something like Aboriginal culture in Sydney? It might cover the major Aboriginal communities: La Perouse, South Sydney, Blacktown etc; the movement to revive the Dharug language; current Aboriginal place names; prominent Aboriginal artists and cultural organisations. I was thinking of a brief section, but perhaps something that could be expanded in to a separate article later. It's been a long time since I worked with Aboriginal communities (I quit when they tried to send me to the NT during the Intervention) and I would need a lot of help in drafting. Anyway, let me know if you think it might work. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 07:36, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that, I knew you'd fix it up - I couldn't find your draft so went with a middle ground for the time being seeing as the others were quick to just delete the info without reformatting it into the new sections as they should've done.
 * I think your suggestion for the current Aboriginal culture in Sydney sounds like a great idea, I'd be happy to help out. Hopefully it won't get much (if any) pushback from the follow & delete crew. GadigalGuy (talk) 08:23, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Heads-up
Hey GadigalGuy thanks for your work. As you are no doubt aware, there are all too few Aboriginal voices (and probably no Torres Strait Islander ones) on WP and it is great to have your input. You may be interested in contributing to this discussion about article name (and may not agree with my conclusion - but that's fine too!). Laterthanyouthink (talk) 00:36, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Contact
Hi @GadigalGuy I work for Wikimedia Australia and I'd be keen to get in contact with you about a Wikipedia session we're running next month (Feb 2023). Please reach out to me at [mailto:james.gaunt@wikimedia.org.au james.gaunt@wikimedia.org.au] if possible. Thanks Jimmyjrg (talk) 22:14, 2 January 2023 (UTC)