User talk:Gastroking

Welcome!
Welcome to Wikipedia, Gastroking! Thank you for your contributions. I am Malik Shabazz and I have been editing Wikipedia for some time, so if you have any questions feel free to leave me a message on my talk page. You can also check out Questions or type at the bottom of this page. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: Also, when you post on talk pages you should sign your name using four tildes ( ~ ); that will automatically produce your username and the date. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:26, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
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Jewish history
Please read WP:LEAD and WP:UNDUE. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:28, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Father of
Edits that add text like "X was known as the father of Y" (diff and diff) are not desirable at Wikipedia. If a named author publishes an article making that statement, readers understand that it is the assessment of the author. However, at Wikipedia, such text is essentially meaningless because many authors have made various claims, and adding their "father of" thoughts to articles does not add objective information—there is no such thing as "X was the father of Y" when Y is an idea. If someone invented something, just say that. If someone was first to propose an idea or procedure, just say that. In addition to its imprecise nature, father of is often used for "boosterism" where people use the phrase to promote someone or something.

Issues such as father of have been explored thoroughly in the past. For example, see WP:Jagged 85 cleanup for an egregious case of boosterism which involved scores of father of edits and thousands of other distortions. Some further comments are here. That's a complex case which would take hours to understand—I'm pointing to it merely to show what I meant with my 'we don't do "Father of" any more' comment at Avicenna. See also Talk:Avicenna/Archive 3. Johnuniq (talk) 00:47, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I see your point, thank you for your input, and will be careful to refrain from imprecise boosterism. In the case of Avicenna its not the assessment of the single author I cited, rather he's been widely recognized in bearing the "father of" title.

Other sources which cite him as the "Father of Early Modern Medicine" include but are not limited to:
 * Juergensmeyer M. "The Oxford Handbook of Religion and Violence" p 625
 * Paul E. "The Emperor Is Buck Naked: Why Medical Evidence Is Not Necessarily Proof" p 12
 * Herlihy J. "Islam for Our Time: Inside the Traditional World of Islamic Spirituality" p 108
 * Ma'oz M. "The Meeting of Civilizations: Muslim, Christian, and Jewish" p 243
 * Ganchy S. "Islam and Science, Medicine, and Technology" p 30

While the undue promotion of Islamic and non-European scholarship should be called out (Jagged 85 example above), its also important to appropriately recognize these scholars when their impact is such and a consensus exists from multiple sources and scholars. Gastroking (talk) 02:19, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Sure, but none of those authors stand out as acknowledged authorities on the history of modern medicine. For example, it is likely that Mark Juergensmeyer is merely repeating claims read elsewhere (and Google shows that he wrote the more defensible a father, not the father). Suppose someone tried to justify the statement "Avicenna is regarded as the father of modern medicine". Is there any objective test that could be applied? What work known to have been done by the person would justify such a statement? For example, if the person worked to establish hygiene, that could be noted; if they established evidentiary-based treatments, that could be noted. At any rate, there is strong pushback against attempts to add "father of" to articles, and I am merely the first to let you know. Johnuniq (talk) 03:31, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Welcome!


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Again, welcome! Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:01, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Very useful information, thank you. Gastroking (talk) 00:08, 5 January 2015 (UTC)