User talk:Geek2003/Archive2011

Proposed deletion of Avaya Energy Saver


The article Avaya Energy Saver has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * This product does not appear notable; the only references provided are not independent. See WP:VRS, WP:GNG, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:PRIMARY

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.  Chzz  ► 05:29, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Avaya Secure Router 2330


A tag has been placed on Avaya Secure Router 2330, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done for the following reason:

WP is not a product catalogue.

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not meet basic Wikipedia criteria may be deleted at any time.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion," which appears inside of the speedy deletion tag (if no such tag exists, the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate). Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 09:39, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Avaya Secure Router 2330


The article Avaya Secure Router 2330 has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * WP is not a product catalogue.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Thparkth (talk) 11:35, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Avaya
Template:Avaya has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 07:42, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Avaya Secure Router 2330 for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Avaya Secure Router 2330 is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Avaya Secure Router 2330 until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 07:46, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

July 2011
Please do not remove Articles for deletion notices from articles or remove other people's comments in Articles for deletion pages, as you did with Avaya Secure Router 4134. Doing so won't stop the discussion from taking place. You are, however, welcome to comment about the proposed deletion on the appropriate page. Thank you. Thparkth (talk) 12:56, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Avaya Professional Credential Program


A tag has been placed on Avaya Professional Credential Program, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page seems to be unambiguous advertising which only promotes a company, product, group, service or person and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become an encyclopedia article. Please read the guidelines on spam and FAQ/Business for more information.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion," which appears inside of the speedy deletion tag (if no such tag exists, the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate). Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 11:48, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Don Peterson


A tag has been placed on Don Peterson requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion," which appears inside of the speedy deletion tag (if no such tag exists, the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate). Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 12:00, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Kevin J. Kennedy


A tag has been placed on Kevin J. Kennedy requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion," which appears inside of the speedy deletion tag (if no such tag exists, the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate). Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 12:00, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Charles Giancarlo


A tag has been placed on Charles Giancarlo requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion," which appears inside of the speedy deletion tag (if no such tag exists, the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate). Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 12:01, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Avaya IP Office


A tag has been placed on Avaya IP Office, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page seems to be unambiguous advertising which only promotes a company, product, group, service or person and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become an encyclopedia article. Please read the guidelines on spam and FAQ/Business for more information.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion," which appears inside of the speedy deletion tag (if no such tag exists, the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate). Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 12:05, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Avaya Visualization Performance & Fault Manager


A tag has been placed on Avaya Visualization Performance & Fault Manager, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page seems to be unambiguous advertising which only promotes a company, product, group, service or person and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become an encyclopedia article. Please read the guidelines on spam and FAQ/Business for more information.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion," which appears inside of the speedy deletion tag (if no such tag exists, the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate). Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 12:32, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Avaya ERS-4500 Systems for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Avaya ERS-4500 Systems is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Avaya ERS-4500 Systems until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 12:44, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Charles Giancarlo for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Charles Giancarlo is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Charles Giancarlo until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 13:29, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Kevin J. Kennedy for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Kevin J. Kennedy is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Kevin J. Kennedy until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 13:33, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Avaya 9600 Series IP Deskphones for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Avaya 9600 Series IP Deskphones is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Avaya 9600 Series IP Deskphones until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 14:37, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

advice
I want to help you save as many of these articles as possible. Based on several years trying with similar ones, I have some suggestions
 * 1) They must not read like an advertisement. Use as few adjectives as possible. Give  basic capabilities, and distinctive features, but but not the details or the same standard stuff all similar products have.  Say what they do, not the advantages of using them. A guide is, that if it would be information useful only to a client or prospective client, it does not belong here. What belongs here is information relevant to someone who is not a prospective client, but wants to know what the product is. And remember that the goal of an encyclopedia  is to say things in a concise manner, which is not the style of  press releases or  web sites, which are usually more expansive.


 * 1) Add external links only to the main web page about the product. Links to specifications, help pages, etc, are better found from there than from Wikipedia, because of the frequent changes.  For individual products, it is normally better to write an article about a complete project line, not an individual piece of equipment. Try to write in prose, not lists--pages containing mainly lists tend to look like a product catalog sheet.


 * 1) As matters of style: Use a few capitals as possible, e.g. storage architecture NOT Storage Architecture, even when its a proprietary architecture. Don't use list format for the bulk of the article, just as a highlight. Limit tables to actual differences of importance. Do not refer to the name of the company more than essential (once or twice per article is sufficient), or the name of the product either. e.g., word things as "this product" NOT "The Model 876..."

And, most important, Wikipedia articles must have references providing substantial coverage from  3rd party independent published reliable sources, print or online, but not blogs or press releases, or material derived from press releases. Product reviews from technical or trade publications are what's needed here.

Now, right now, quickly fix as many of the articles as you can in these respects--especially the references I've started on one or two, but I cannot do them all. It is quite OK to edit an article during an AfD, and mention  at the  AfD that you have done so--but make sure th edits are an improvement.

And one hint about AfD: do not get into arguments. Nobody is out to get the particular company. The nominator, and most of the people at the AfD, are respected editors, and nothing will be gained by attacking them. Rather, everything might well be lost, because while we admins try to judge the strength of the arguments and the article in closing, such tactics do not encourage us to give the benefit of the doubt.  DGG ( talk ) 00:02, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * stop a minute, and I will show you on Avaya ERS 8600.   DGG ( talk ) 00:32, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Additional Work. I merged a considerable number of the pages for components into Avaya Enterprise Switch Manager. I intend to do the same as rapidly as I can for the other articles not at AfD Dealing with merging the ones at  AfD is more complicated, & it may be necessary to make a general article first.  Quite a few of your links did not work, for me or other Wikipedians; in each case I either eliminated it or found the closest link. Please check all links, from a site outside the company--sometimes the access path is different.  I've two product questions that affect how to divide the articles : First, Is Ayala Routing Manager best understood as a part of Avaya Enterprise Switch Manager, or as correlate with Avaya Secure Network Access? (for example, does it work with 3rd party switches, like ASNA) Second, what is the relationship of  Avaya Enterprise Switch Manager to  Avaya Configuration and Orchestration Manager  Are they alternate names?
 * I also condensed the template a bit as I went along. The "Unified Communications" section needs work--pls arrange it horizontally like the other sections.   DGG ( talk ) 19:57, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Avaya Routing manager is best put with the Avaya Enterprise Switch Manager, the Avaya Enterprise Switch Manager and Avaya Configuration and Orchestration Manager are two totally different software products, but we could group COM and VPFM under the UCM heading.  I will work on the template tonight.  Geek2003 (talk) 01:18, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I moved the VPFM section to the UCM page and updated the template (that was harder than I expected) to have everything horizontal like the other boxes, but I still have not been able to get the words in the two boxes to center instead of left justify???? I am checking all the links.  Geek2003 (talk) 12:22, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

I just looked at the Avaya ERS 5500 page and the admin voted to keep this page, but what about the other products under this same discussion box Articles_for_deletion/Avaya_ERS_5500 heading? The Avaya ERS 8800, Avaya Secure Router 4134 and the Avaya ERS 8600. Geek2003 (talk) 02:00, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Avaya Energy Saver for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Avaya Energy Saver is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Avaya Energy Saver until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article.  Chzz  ► 21:37, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Avaya Unified Communications Management for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Avaya Unified Communications Management is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Avaya Unified Communications Management until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 22:56, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Geek2003 - I voted to keep the Avaya Unified Communications Management page; we use this pgr dayly to mgt our military network. 108.110.185.190 (talk) 08:06, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Avaya Professional Credential Program for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Avaya Professional Credential Program is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Avaya Professional Credential Program until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 07:59, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Avaya IP Phone 1120 for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Avaya IP Phone 1120 is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Avaya IP Phone 1120 until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 19:31, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Tit for tat nominations
Hi Geek2003. I understand that you are upset that some editors are putting your articles up for deletion, but retaliating by nominating their articles is not the best way to go about saving them. It is very WP:Pointy and wastes a lot of other editors time. AIR corn (talk) 04:44, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I followed the proper procedure and tagged the page first earlier this month before requesting to have it deleted.Geek2003 (talk) 05:11, 1 September 2011 (UTC)


 * But given how the AfD is shaping up even after a few short hours it does seem to have been a poor judgement call on your part. A quick google search would have established a degree of notability of the article in question. Also, an article does not go up for deletion simply because it lacks suitable sources. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 06:27, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Then why the policy "All material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable published source using an inline citation, and the burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material."Geek2003 (talk) 06:38, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Basically that means that if there is contentious information it must have a reliable source backing it up. If it doesn't you would be within your rights to delete a sentence or paragraph. Best practice would be to look for sources yourself and if you can't find any tag with undefined, wait about a week and then remove it. However, any contentious material in a biography of a living person (BLP) should be removed immediately. It does not mean put the whole article up for deletion. Lack of notability is the main reason for deleting articles (an exception are unsourced BLPs where current practise is to propose any for deletion). AIR corn (talk) 09:44, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Donald Shepperd for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Donald Shepperd is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Donald Shepperd until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 06:36, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Avaya 1100 series IP phones


A tag has been placed on Avaya 1100 series IP phones, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done for the following reason:

''non-notable product line. The editor is adding numerousunsuitable Avaya product articles to WP suggesting a conflict of interest''

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not meet basic Wikipedia criteria may be deleted at any time.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 06:46, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Unblock request for IPadWanderer now raised at AN/I
There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Unblock_request_for_IPadWanderer. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:45, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know how this process works. Is there anything that I am required to do for this? -- Geek2003 (talk) 11:01, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Talkback
Ottawahitech (talk) 14:55, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Terabit Ethernet


The article Terabit Ethernet has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * WP:CRYSTAL. consists solely of speculation on a subject with no more substance than "faster than gigabit Ethernet"

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:03, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Generals
– Connormah (talk) 00:48, 31 December 2011 (UTC)