User talk:Getoverpops

March 2015
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, your addition of one or more external links to the page Old Taylor has been reverted. Your edit here to Old Taylor was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to remove links which are discouraged per our external links guideline. The external link(s) you added or changed (https://forgottendistilleries.wordpress.com/2011/12/09/abandoned-distilleries-is-preservation-a-problem/) is/are on my list of links to remove and probably shouldn't be included in Wikipedia. If you were trying to insert an external link that does comply with our policies and guidelines, then please accept my creator's apologies and feel free to undo the bot's revert. However, if the link does not comply with our policies and guidelines, but your edit included other, constructive, changes to the article, feel free to make those changes again without re-adding the link. Please read Wikipedia's external links guideline for more information, and consult my list of frequently-reverted sites. For more information about me, see my FAQ page. Thanks! --XLinkBot (talk) 14:19, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Hello, I'm XLinkBot. I wanted to let you know that I removed one or more external links you added to the page Old Crow, because they seemed to be inappropriate for an encyclopedia. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page, or take a look at our guidelines about links. Your edit here to Old Crow was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to remove links which are discouraged per our external links guideline. The external link(s) you added or changed (https://forgottendistilleries.wordpress.com/2011/12/09/abandoned-distilleries-is-preservation-a-problem/) is/are on my list of links to remove and probably shouldn't be included in Wikipedia. If you were trying to insert an external link that does comply with our policies and guidelines, then please accept my creator's apologies and feel free to undo the bot's revert. However, if the link does not comply with our policies and guidelines, but your edit included other, constructive, changes to the article, feel free to make those changes again without re-adding the link. Please read Wikipedia's external links guideline for more information, and consult my list of frequently-reverted sites. For more information about me, see my FAQ page. Thanks! --XLinkBot (talk) 14:21, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

March 2015
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement. Please be particularly aware that Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states: In particular, editors should be aware of the three-revert rule, which says that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. While edit warring on Wikipedia is not acceptable in any amount and can lead to a block, breaking the three-revert rule is very likely to lead to a block. If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 16:45, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made.
 * 2) Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

Further info: Your last two edits included, among other changes, changes to a section you previously edited as an IP. You violated the three revert rule at that time, leading to semi-protection of the article. Your actions here are a continuation of that previous behavior. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 16:50, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 17:44, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Reference errors on 26 March
Hello, I'm ReferenceBot. I have automatically detected that an edit performed by you may have introduced errors in referencing. as follows: Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?action=edit&preload=User:A930913/RBpreload&editintro=User:A930913/RBeditintro&minor=&title=User_talk:A930913&preloadtitle=ReferenceBot%20–%20&section=new report it to my operator]. Thanks, ReferenceBot (talk) 00:26, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * On the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard page, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=653608568 your edit] caused a broken reference name (help) . ([ Fix] | [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&preload=User:ReferenceBot/helpform&preloadtitle=Referencing%20errors%20on%20%5B%5BSpecial%3ADiff%2F653608568%7CWikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard%5D%5D Ask for help])

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 02:42, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The report is now at Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. This might be closed with no action if you will agree not to restore the POV tag again unless you get consensus for it on the talk page. Tags, like any other article content, are subject to consensus. Otherwise, whichever admin closes this is likely to perceive a long-term war regarding the tag and may be tempted to block your account. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 13:25, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring at Southern strategy
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 48 hours for edit warring. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by first reading the guide to appealing blocks, then adding the following text below this notice:. During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. The full report is at Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. EdJohnston (talk) 15:34, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. The thread is Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Thank you. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 00:09, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Did you really think it would be a good idea to resume edit warring on the article text at Southern strategy, as soon as you conceded the point about the POV tag? Since the issue has now taken up so much space at WP:AN3, and you seem unwilling to drop the stick, I'm considering a one-month block for disruptive editing. You can avoid this if you will ban yourself from the article and talk page for one month, and refrain from discussing the Southern strategy on any other page of Wikipedia, including talk and noticeboards.  The purpose of AN3 is to stop edit wars, and so far it is not working. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 14:57, 11 May 2015 (UTC)


 * What?! Can I ask what edits I did that are considered warring?  In all seriousness I don't see which edits I'm making that are considered unreasonable.  Could you ask NS to please justify his view that I am edit warring?  I would also ask that you discount Scoobydunk's claims.  He has been disruptive in both the original and later neutrality discussion.  Additionally his telling of events has not been honest.  If you look at the actual edits I made you will see they are in line with the original neutrality discussion suggestions and follow the BOLD standard of Wiki.  I made a series of changes, then when they were rejected I have moved the discussion to the talk page.  I believe SD is trying to use the reporting system to be vindictive rather than actually improve the article.  Getoverpops (talk) 14:59, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
 * That was the offer. If you don't choose to accept it, I will proceed with the one-month block. EdJohnston (talk) 16:35, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Again, would you let me know what warring I'm actually engaged in? I'm really confused by this and it's frustrating to feel like I'm trying to work in good faith when others are claiming all sorts of things.  Could you please tell me how my recent edits are an edit war?  The only issue I was accused of was the 3RR rule.  I would like to clear this up before making any posts on the topic but I think its reasonable to ask what I'm actually doing wrong.  I would have no issue showing that SD is making false claims against me.  Getoverpops (talk) 16:54, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Continued edit warring at Southern strategy after previous block, two AN3 discussions
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 1 month for disruptive editing. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by first reading the guide to appealing blocks, then adding the following text below this notice:. You won't drop the stick about Southern strategy. Any good faith from others that you might have earned has been lost through the relentless battleground editing. As a result, we will never find out if you were right about the content issue. If you belatedly decide to accept the offer I made above, one that requires a one-month self-imposed topic ban from the Southern strategy across all Wikipedia pages, any admin may lift this block. EdJohnston (talk) 17:06, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I will accept the self imposed ban but I still want to know what I did wrong. What post was edit warring?  I was only accused of violating a 3RR rule, why am I now being accused of edit warring?  What posts were not OK?

Can I again ask what posts I made that constituted an edit war? This is still where I am confused. I would like to return to the topic when the month is up and I want to make sure, even if I'm dealing with hostile editors, that I know what lines to avoid crossing. To this end I'm asking for your help in understanding where I actually crossed a line this time. Note: If you tell me to drop this question now I will not post on the subject again. I'm not trying to be disagreeable but I do feel I am not getting a fair shake and I do feel other editors are being dishonest with their claims against me. Getoverpops (talk) 18:24, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Your position is that the so-called Southern strategy is exaggerated and there are non-racist explanations for it. Others point out that mainstream scholarly sources don't agree with you. All your edits at Southern strategy seem oriented to making the so-called strategy more innocent, for example with this edit. Other editors, especially in the thread at WP:NPOVN, state that actual articles published by scholars have a well-established view of the matter. If you consistently edit the article to portray the strategy in a more benign manner, you aren't in accord with the consensus. Achieving due weight isn't simply a matter of adding sources. It requires listening to others. It does not seem that anyone agrees with you on the talk page. EdJohnston (talk) 18:33, 11 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Your first sentence is essentially correct. That said, I understand that wiki requires references and considers the weight of the references.  To that end I would like to defend my position.

RightCowLeftCoast was the most involved 3rd party mediator. He never issued a final view one way or the other. Scoobydunk, admittedly also an editor who previously was not involved in the article, was the primary reason the replies grew so long. I was taking a lot of space to respond to his accusations.
 * 1) The sources I would like to add are mostly scholarly articles [] or books published by university presses.  For example in the edit you cited I added 3 sources.  All three authors are university professors in the area and the information cited was in university press books (ie peer reviewed sources).    .  I also included an op-ed article by one of the authors I just referenced (Alexander).  I believe that as a a professor in the field he counts as an expert opinion and I noted it in the edit I made.  .  I hope you can see why I strongly disagree with the claim, primarily made by Scoobydunk who was not one of the previous editors of the article, that my sources are not reliable.  I do not claim that they supercede all other sources, only that they are authoritative enough to warrant a place in the article as a counter point.
 * 2)  The other editors might claim there is scholarly consensus but they have not shown this.  The current article actually has very few scholarly articles (Dan Carter; Black, Black, Earl and Merle; Bruce Kalk; Robin Corey are the primary ones).  So we are, buy the numbers 4 vs 3 though I might have missed one and I didn't include Clay Risen in the list of those who see the shift as something other than racism (he was already in the Wiki article).  That would bring the scholars to about 50:50 with regards to seeing the shift as a result of an appeal to racism in voters.  To this end I believe any claim that the scholars are unanimous is questionable and that their is enough weight on the other side to warrant inclusion of the counter view.  Note I am not arguing for excluding the original view, only including a reasonable section showing not all researchers agree here.
 * 3)  I do agree my edits show a mitigation of the southern strategy claim.  However, that is what a body of the scholarship says.
 * 4)  I also agree that my addition of sources and quotes heavily favored the "against" POV.  I would hope that others could enhance the "for" POV and we could come up with a new balance on the topic.  Currently the article errors towards accepting the racist appeal model.  Note that a number of editors have felt the same way.  Talk:Southern_strategy[].  In the archive page contains several threads questioning the bias of the article and dating back several years.  It seems clear that I am not the only one who felt the article was one sided.
 * 5)  I think it was too soon to claim the talk discussions were unanimous against my POV.  The mediator in the current discussion has not issued a verdict.  Several posts in the original NPOV[] support my view.  Note these are editors who were not involved with the article.
 * Jonathan Tweet, "In an article this long, the counterpoint deserves mention. It's a notable but apparently minority view. I'd like to see a section in the main body talking about this contrary view, and mention of it in the lede. "
 * RightCowLeftCoast, prior to my adding several sources said, "As it can be verified, the view should be given a mention. But unless more than the academically written source, and the NYT article, are the presently provided reliable sources, it shouldn't be given its own entire section. Although I might not agree with the stereotype that south=racist and thus southern strategy=racist strategy, if that's what most sources write (even if the sources themselves are biased), that's how the weight is".
 * Juno, "Competing explanations for the political realignment of 1968 must be mentioned and the first paragraph must be rewritten to note the contested nature of the theory. "

While I see the value of consensus and perhaps in a months time we can try again. I hope you are starting to see my POV on this issue and can see that I was not engaging in an edit war vs just trying to improve the article. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this issue.Getoverpops (talk) 22:26, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I understand if you are busy and if you aren't able to reply to my questions at this time. I would be interested in knowing if you feel I have made my case for both why I think my information was valid for the article and that I was not intentionally engaging in destructive editing (I really did very little actual editing of the article). ThanksGetoverpops (talk) 05:17, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Getoverpops, if you're asking me to modify the restriction I am not willing to do so. After June 11 you'll be able to use the article talk page to try to get support from others. Please refrain from any further discussion of the article until your restriction expires. If you raise content questions about the Southern strategy here on this talk page, that is technically a violation, so please don't do so. EdJohnston (talk) 12:12, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


 * At this point in time I'm asking if you feel that I have made two parts of my case. First, that I did not go against any NPOV settlements and that second, the information I wanted to add does meet the standards for reliability.  If you don't want to lift the ruling so be it but given that just a few edits above you gave a telling of events that I think is not supported by the facts I would like to know if you see my side of the issue.  Consider this, a temp ban often is a cooling off period for editors.  That is understandable.  One of the things that would help is simply knowing that even if I didn't handle things correctly, I wasn't off base in my view of the facts (the numbers above).  Otherwise you end up with that feeling not unlike when you are in school and you know that other kids lied to the teacher and you got in trouble for it.  You believed the accusations based on your post above.  Even you feel the month off is still a good idea I would like to know if my above argument is sound.  Getoverpops (talk) 14:23, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Getoverpops, there is nothing more to be said until June 11. Your behavior could become the official illustration for not dropping the WP:STICK. EdJohnston (talk) 14:28, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

In that case I will await your reply on the 11th. Getoverpops (talk) 14:51, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I know it isn't the 11th but it has been two weeks. I would be interested in knowing the answer to my question above.  ThanksGetoverpops (talk) 01:25, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Per our conversation on your user page from May 11th and the above I would like to know what I did one month ago that constituted an edit war.

Edit warring at Southernization and Solid South
You have now taken the exact same issues from the above section and moved them to two different articles. Your initial edits at these articles could be seen as the start of a BRD cycle, but once you were reverted by two different editors, rather than discussing the issues you simply added the material back. It is bad form to fail to obtain consensus in one article and then simply shift to another article to try to obtain the same results. It would also be silly to have three separate discussions on the same issue. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:14, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I made the edits and I have since added the discussion section. You are trying to start an edit war by reverting without justification.  I have asked you to move the conversation to the talk pages and I have added the talk section.  It is now your turn to move things to the talk section rather than just reverting my edits.  That certainly looks like an edit war on your part.Getoverpops (talk) 14:18, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
 * You've reverted twice at each article. Following BRD you should have initiated discussion after the first time you were reverted.  With the revert on each article you were told that there was an ongoing discussion at Southern Strategy -- rather than making your case there, you reverted. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:30, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
 * And if you notice in both cases I addressed that concern and you have replied to neither talk page but you have tried to claim edit war again. Now to the two pages, first we have the Southernization article.  In that case I added references that talked about the shift in overall politics towards or away from the south.  That is not a discussion of the southern strategy and thus what we discuss on the SS page shouldn't mater.  You have a better argument on the Solid South page.  However, as I noted on the talk page (where we should be having this current discussion) there is a large consensus that the GOP's success in the south was not due to appeals to racism (note that statement doesn't mean appeals weren't made) but due to other factors.  The Solid South article made such a claim without any references what so ever.  I added both the point reference (carter) and a counter point reference.  Why was that incorrect.  Even on the SS page BEFORE I joined Wikipedia the article had a reference that said what I'm now saying.  It's hard to claim that I'm adding new stuff when my reference is one that was long in the SS page.  Now can we move these conversations to the article pages?Getoverpops (talk) 14:37, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. The thread is Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Thank you.Scoobydunk (talk) 17:13, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Southern strategy is covered by discretionary sanctions under WP:ARBAP2
EdJohnston (talk) 01:45, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Indefinite block
I've blocked you indefinitely for your resumption of edit-warring at Southern strategy. I read the discussion you had with in May when Ed unblocked you after you agreed not to edit the article for one month. Even then, I could see that you only reluctantly agreed to the article ban, that you failed to have any insight into your behavior, and that even after agreement you continued to battle for your content position. The fact that one month later you resumed the same battle demonstrates to me that even after a month's reflection, you still have no insight into your misconduct. I have no confidence that a shorter block would be for the benefit of the project. See WP:GAB for your appeal rights.--Bbb23 (talk) 04:34, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Huon, Thank you for the input. I think I am unclear on what counts as an edit war. My objective is to improve an article for which I have an interest and to do so using sound arguments and references. I was under the assumption that some level of back and forth is part of the give and take process. I would understand if my edits were simple vandalism but I hope you agree that they are at least not that. I also hope you see that I try to be diligent in my research on the subjects and try to give detailed explanations as to my thinking. Again I hope you can see fit to give me a last chance. I will also expand my horizons as far as other topics are concerned. Could I offer one last proposal. A topic ban for some period. During which time I show via other topics an ability to edit within the system. At that point the topic ban would be lifted. Please understand that my intent is to improve the article through the inclusion of quality sources. My intent has never been to disrupt.Getoverpops (talk) 18:36, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * To the moderators (Bbb23,EdJohnston : I see a new edit war is starting to form on the Southern Strategy article.  I have nothing to do with those edits.  Getoverpops (talk) 20:21, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

EdJohnston, it is clear that I have failed to understand how my edits have been seen as edit warring. I hope you can see that in this last week I have been trying to edit boldly yet within the rule. I spent some time to day reviewing the 3RR rule as well as the edit warring rule. As I really felt that I had been within the rules I was hoping you would dialog with me to help me understand where I have failed. I would like to ultimately return to Wikipedia editing but I understand that I would have to avoid this subject area. Would you be both willing to help me better understand my mistakes and, if possible, come up with a plan to reverse the indefinite block. Thank you,Getoverpops (talk) 03:32, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * You've been back at AN3 so many times we now have a large dossier on you. You began editing on March 20 and since then you have received three edit warring blocks for the same thing. If there was any possibility you would wake up and start following policy you would have done so by now. Giving you more advice would be a waste of time since you've ignored so much of it in the past. EdJohnston (talk) 03:48, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * EdJohnston, Thank you for the reply.  Again, I feel much of this has been confusion on my part about the rules combined with an enthusiasm for the topic in question.  Much of my confusion revolves around the nature of the 3RR rules.  In this final instance I thought since the edits were not undos but back and forth refinements of the text those were not reverts.  I felt that my edit before the 30 time out was within the spirit of the BOLD cycle.  That is what I was trying to discuss with you at the time and tried again on the 11th.  I feel like I'm trying to stay in the rules while dealing with editors who were dismissive of my sources because I was a new editor.  I see these thing from the POV of someone who is making a good faith effort to improve the objectivity of the articles I worked on while trying to be totally within the rules.  Anyway, I would like to attempt to reform my account and do so on topics that are totally unrelated to Southern politics.  That is why I'm asking to be given one last chance.  I totally understand a time out and will agree to forgo editing on topics that could be seen as related to the one's I've previously worked on until such time as you are convinced I have understood the mistakes I made.  I look at the other indefinite blocks and feel they were for things like sock puppets vs simply being very passionate about a given area of history.  With that said, would you please consider something other than an indefinite block?  I would really like to have the chance to reform my account.Getoverpops (talk) 04:35, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm done here. EdJohnston (talk) 04:39, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * EdJohnston, again, thank you for your time. I hope that in a month or so you might reconsider.Getoverpops (talk) 04:56, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * EdJohnston, Sorry, one last thing. I want to reiterate that I am not associated with the recent IP edits on the Southern Strategy article.  I hope you believe me in that regard.  I certainly wouldn't risk enflaming Admins with that sort of thing while asking for a final chance.  Again, sorry to bother you again.Getoverpops (talk) 05:19, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I can't speak for Ed, but I don't think the IP's edits were at all similar to yours. Please take at least a month before you start asking for anything again. Actually, I wouldn't recommend unblocking you until at least six months have elapsed (standard offer). I also will have no more comments here if you continue to post messages and pings. Give yourself a break, and give us a break from this.--Bbb23 (talk) 05:29, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, thank you for the advice. I will cool it for a while.


 * PhilKnight, Thank you for the reply. I would like to ask for consideration of something less than the 6 month time frame.  My reasoning is thus:  My previous issues were due to a failure to really understand the 3RR.  When I got back from the 30 day suspension I was trying to avoid a 3RR violation because I knew I was on thin ice.  What I failed to realize at the time was what counts as a revert.  Regardless, I was wrong in my understanding.  Since getting this block I have really spent some time trying to understand how to get changes made around here (my old method clearly was not it).  Having now carefully read some of the guidelines that apply to me (!) the blocking policy notes that blocking is not meant to be punitive ( WP:NOPUNISH ).  At this point my account is at a crossroads.  If I have learned my lesson and edit within the guidelines then there is no reason for a continued block.  That would only be a punishment at this point.  Alternatively, if I screw up, then I think people will decide that I will never learn and thus the block would likely be permanent with the logic that permanent is the only fix to protect the site ( WP:BLOCKPREVENTATIVE ).  With that in mind I would like to ask for consideration for a shorter than 6 month period before the rest of the standard offer could be considered.  Again, thank you for your time and consideration. Getoverpops (talk) 14:54, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

A Fun Read!
What a hilarious story arc this user has.50.58.246.98 (talk) 12:17, 29 August 2018 (UTC)