User talk:Ggildemyn

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Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like Wikipedia and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome! - Ahunt (talk) 21:20, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
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Scheibe Zugvogel
You keep adding unsourced information that Rudolph Kaiser designed this aircraft. The cited ref says that it was Egon Scheibe who designed it. You can't make claims like this that contradict cited sources without citing a better source. Please read WP:V. - Ahunt (talk) 00:30, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Answer to Ahunt: See "Sailplanes 1945-1965" by Martin Simons (Ed: Eqip) p.162: "...was developed via the Zugvogel III from Kaiser's original Zugvogel of 1954". This book is a very well informed and complete book about gliders in this period. It is well known by all glider pilots! - See also the German Wikipedia article about Rudolph Kaiser: "Von 1952 bis 1953 arbeitete Kaiser sowohl für die Firma Scheibe-Flugzeugbau GmbH, als auch für die Firma Schleicher. Bei Scheibe konstruierte er den Spatz, für Schleicher die doppelsitzige Leistungsmaschine Ka 2, die Rhönschwalbe und Ka 4 Rhönlerche II (Schulungs-Doppelsitzer). Nachdem er in den Jahren 1953 bis 1955 für Scheibe den Zugvogel (Ka 5) entwickelte, wechselte er 1955 zu Schleicher. " Ggildemyn (talk) 23:12, 17 November 2012 (UTC) Ggildemyn


 * Other editions of Wikipedia can't be used as refs for Wikipedia, please see WP:CIRCULAR. That statement on de.wiki cites no refs, so it is no help at all. The Martin Simons ref sounds useful, though. Now how do we sort out what that refs says versus the cited refs. Obviously one is incorrect, or is it possible that Kaiser designed the Zugvogel I and then Egon Scheibe did the later developmental work on the II and later designs? Does Simons give more information? - Ahunt (talk) 00:23, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

No, Simons does not give more details. Nevertheless the fact that R.Kaiser actually engineered the Zugvogel is a well known fact by all glider pilots interested in the history of gliding. Moreover in the known series of Schleichers Ka 1 to Ka 9, all gliders designed by Kaiser, the missing Ka 5 corresponds with the Zugvogel I, also designed  by him. It is true that the later versions Zugvogel II and III were modified by Egon Scheibe. I found it interesting to quote the german Wikipedia article, as we can assume that the germans are very well informed about this sport, which is almost a national sport in their country. If Wikipedia does not believe me, I can tell you that this is of no concern at all for me: this will not prevent me to continue to be an active and even passionate glider pilot. ;-) Ggildemyn (talk) 21:25, 18 November 2012 (UTC) Ggildemyn


 * It isn't a case of passion or what is "well known", here on Wikipedia we don't work from WP:THETRUTH, we work from reliable references as per WP:V. As I noted what any version of Wikipedia says doesn't matter as quoting from it is WP:CIRCULAR reasoning. Let me incorporate what we have from Simons' ref and see what you think. - Ahunt (talk) 23:22, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Just do what you wish. Discussion closed. Ggildemyn (talk) 22:23, 19 November 2012 (UTC)Ggildemyn