User talk:Ghmyrtle/Archive 41

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If you have the time...
I would much appreciate you casting an eye over a draft article, currently lazing away in my sweatbox. I do not know what it is with me and songs, but I always get into deep water when trying to compose an article on any of them. I think I maybe set off on the wrong foot, styling "Georgia Grind" as a 'single' when, technically, such a thing did not appear until long after this song was released. Plus I can not find a time scale (if there was one) for Bud Allen adding the lyrics to the original music. I am struggling to find whether Lucille Bogan's words (1933) changed substantially from those presumably used by Edmonia Henderson in 1926. I also tried to avoid using 'Discogs', the hopelessly unreliable source that it apparently is, but it appears at least twice. I do not think I am short of sources, as such, but I seem to be a bit stuck. A second opinion therefore, however radical, would be very welcome. Cheers,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 17:51, 30 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. Well, this blog - seemingly authoritative ("Director of Research Collections for the Louis Armstrong House Museum") but not necessarily reliable - is very dismissive of the idea that Williams wrote it in 1915.   I can maybe delve some more.....   Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:07, 30 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I just knew it - what seemed like a easy one to nail, looks like it has much more to reveal. Delve away... this has legs, I can feel it ! - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 18:20, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
 * There's a load of technical stuff here.... rather you than me, though it does suggest that the tune was only copyrighted in 1926.  I don't know where the 1915 date originates from, though it's been widely repeated.   This looks to me to be a pretty exhaustive summary of Williams' career, and it also gives 1926 (in the sidebar - it's not mentioned in the text so far as I can see) as the copyright year.    A bit more here, and a whole bunch of stuff here.    Any use?   Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:47, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your valuable work on this. The draft article clearly needs more than a tweak. I'll have a go presently, then come back to you if that is OK. Thanks again.

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 12:07, 31 July 2019 (UTC)


 * 'Version 2' now written. The layout is not much changed (and I'm still not entirely happy with the 'single' setting), but the text and references are expanded to incorporate your work above.  What do you think now ? - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:26, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
 * If I was being picky I'd move the "Confusion" section to the end, and combine some of the "Other versions" into slightly longer paragraphs... but, I'm not!    Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:38, 31 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Done and done. Thanks once more. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 18:19, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

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Shave 'Em Dry
I never learn my lesson, so now there is another song in my soapbox. Once again, the story behind a simple piece of music is much more complicated than I first thought. What do you think ? Is the draft too long, too detailed, too woolly ? Secondly, the blue link above is actually a redirect to Lucille Bogan and, once it gets to the mainframe, it presumably needs to link directly to the song. I think I have asked you this before, but how do I go about achieving that ? And lastly, do not listen to Bogan's unabridged version - it might set your ears on fire ! Cheers, - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:52, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me. Have you used this source?    And... who was William Jackson??   Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:00, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * On the second point, isn't it just a question of editing this page?  Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:07, 6 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Oh aye, silly me. I don't know where my original source for the songwriters went in all my draft shenanigans. Never mind, the book one you found is better.  I have no idea who William Jackson was, or why it sometimes appears as H. Jackson.  I sort of hoped it might have been this William, who was born around two miles from me ! - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:15, 6 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I should have said that the article is now up in the ether for all to marvel over. BUT the more I dig and dig with my ickle spoon (more of this in a moment), the more that I am coming to the belief that William Jackson (or even H. Jackson) is actually Papa Charlie (born William Henry Jackson). Author of "All I Want Is a Spoonful" which, by pure metamorphosis alone, became "Spoonful", which earned Dear Old Willie a few bob.  Also, I can exclusively reveal that Papa Charlie was the sixth of The Jackson Five !  Anyhoo, here is his name in print so to speak, which I rather dismissed at that time, due to AllMusic's total and inescapably unreliable nature. Conversely the utterly dependable Discogs has this showing the song written by Ma Racky and W. Jackson !!


 * I am supposing that Papa let Ma have first dibs at "Shave 'Em Dry", being as she was the Lady Gaga of the day, and then thought I might as well have a go myself. You will notice that 'traditional' appears too, to muddy the water somewhat   ; and just some plain old poppycock.  What do you think - is my original research enough to give Papa something of a leg up ?! I work hard for my money - Derek R Bullamore (talk) (aka Papa Gaga)


 * PS. The old Papa rascal was behind the melody for "Georgia Grind" too - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 00:22, 7 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm away for a few days now, but when I get back I'll make some enquiries among the experts on one or two online forums where I sometimes lurk, to see if anyone knows.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:28, 7 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I've asked around, and there seems to be something of a consensus that H. Jackson, W. Jackson, and Papa Charlie Jackson are all the same person, but I can't find a definitive source for that. You may (or may not) also be interested in this - sheet music by Sam Wishnuff (who he?) published in 1917 - which you can hear here and is mentioned here.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:38, 14 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks for all that. I am also now certain it is the one and the same person, but I could not pin it down with anything definitive.  There again, you probably would not very easily, as record keeping was not a strong point for the record companies of that time.  The earlier number is interesting and this is partly alluded to in one of the references I used in the article. How near, or far, the musical content is similar between the Sam Wishnuff penned 'ragtime/blues/novelty' instrumental number, and Ma Rainey's song, I would not know.  It might take a music historian of more expertise than me to determine the closeness.  Apart from anything else, the sound system on my computer is on the blink ! As I discovered with "Georgia Grind", and the "James "Boodle It" Wiggins number "Keep Knockin' An You Can't Get In" (as with many other early blues songs) is how much one ditty begats another and another.  Usually each time the new recording artist (and/or affiliated songwriter) makes a grab for the copyright.  The "Shave 'Em Dry" lyrical content itself obviously evolved with some speed !  Frankly I am worn out, so it really serves me right for having the stupidity in composing these song articles, and thinking it should be relatively straight forward.  Note to myself; "do not do it, Derek". In other words, I intend to let sleeping dogs lie, and see if any other editor comes along and seriously challenges the article's content.  I suspect not.  Many thanks again - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 16:14, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Henri Belolo
 Spencer T• C 16:38, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

The Signpost: 30 August 2019
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San Francisco
Do not send me anymore of your rude messages, I am gone

Serge There is a culture of rudeness among your staff I am not dealing with anymore. Good luck with your site, I am sure I will read it from time to time in the future. Please ask your people not to send abusive messages to my email address, I am no longer part of this team. Tillywilly17 (talk) 07:39, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:San Francisco Scott McKenzie.jpg
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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 17:47, 1 September 2019 (UTC)


 * This gets more bonkers by the day. The image is used at the Scott McKenzie page !  We have an editor who has seemingly retired hurt; me who mentioned the image now in question; and the paradox of the self-same rapidly ageing editor discovering, not for the first time this millennium, that placing a few daises on his noggin is a waste of time, as they slip off. Whether in San Francisco, or anywhere else.  Anyhow, you seem to have rediscovered your zeal for turning out new articles, et al.  Wikipedia needs you, more than ever.  Keep going, old friend. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 23:58, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't really mind that image being used in that article - has it been there for long? What annoys me is being unable to simply revert the change that was made to the file article itself - whether it's because it's impossible, or because I'm just a bit thick, I don't know.  Anyway, hopefully it won't recur.  By the way, it's wrong to think I have any "zeal" being here - if I'm on this site, it's simply because I'm a bit bored!   Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:13, 2 September 2019 (UTC)


 * The sleeve image was added to McKenzie's article in November 2012 - so quite a while ago ! - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 16:03, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

You can never have too many
I have recently acquired a few new books - well, new to me anyhow. They are listed in the right hand column in my 'Reference books' section on my userpage. I am sure they will contain much source material for Wikipedia, and I will work my way through them in due course. That is, if I live long enough. I know some titles will not interest you, but I am guessing that some will. So, if you need me to check something from any of them, let me know. By the way, I have already booked in for a hernia operation ! Regards,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:59, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Early 20th century music
do you like early 20th century music/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.97.70.158 (talk) 15:27, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but that's not relevant. If your changes are based on reliable sources, and are correctly formatted, I'd be happy to discuss them on the relevant article talk pages.  But if you do not explain them, they are likely to continue to be reverted.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:38, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

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Another example of Praise section
Here's another: Paul McCandless. Most "reception" sections are like this. Teenage love letters all over the place. –Vmavanti (talk) 01:21, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
 * My view is that critical commentary is fine, but an uncritical encomium is not. Having said that, it's not always easy to draw the line between the two.  There doesn't seem to be much guidance about how to integrate comments of praise into an article - there is the essay WP:CRIT but that is primarily about integrating and balancing negative opinions and criticism.  The problem, often, is that the urge to assert notability for an article subject then becomes, as you say, a "love letter".  It's a question of balance, moderation, and only including information of encyclopedic value to the reader.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:17, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

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Daniel Guichard
I gave your new article a tickle, but, there are conflicting dates of birth for him. Is this a typo, or are there variants around ? Regards, - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 12:10, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Merci! Je m'excuse de mon erreur.   (Aujourd'hui, je suis européen!)   Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:27, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Tee hee. Not for long, though... on the other hand ? - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 12:34, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

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Gerry Shury
I came across this recently created article, and then noticed that we had a little discussion about him back in April 2014. You seem to have the knack of unearthing birth (and death) dates, so I wondered if you could find the time to do a bit of sleuthing. I appear to be going round in circles, without much luck. Thanks,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 17:26, 8 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Gerald Ronald Shury, born in Berkhamsted, Hertfordshire, 11 August 1944, died in Surrey, 24 May 1978.  There's disagreement between the official sources as to whether his middle name was Roland or Ronald - but the death date matches what is said here and here, I think.  I'll add the details to the article - thanks for alerting me!  Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:16, 8 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Brilliant - I knew you would come up with the goods. Poor bugger, he appeared to be at the start of a lengthy career. Thanks for that. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 19:27, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I've just tweaked the article - so you can go ahead and add your magic referencing fairy dust!  Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:28, 8 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Congrats to you both for your work on this!! Do you suppose the middle name confusion is a Buttle/Tuttle situation? :-) Have a pleasant weekend. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 19:36, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I think Roland is more likely than Ronald - it seems to be a name used in the Shury family, and it is probably less likely that the family would have used two forenames both ending in "...ald". Circumstantial evidence, but...   Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:55, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I had an Uncle Roland, but we called him Uncle Leslie !! Long story... - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 20:21, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Lottie Kimbrough
It does not seem likely that this Lottie Kimbrough popped up after almost forty years or so, lost to humanity, to be this Lottie Kimbrough does it ?! A bit of a coincidence though, given that said name is not exactly common, one would have thought. A bit like having two Buffy Sainte-Marie's. Or was she sampled before sampling existed ? "Rolling Log Blues" was one of Kimbrough's songs (I think that she wrote it). Did the credits on the album get a bit mixed up ? One for Inspector Guy to investigate, me thinks.

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 19:48, 15 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Are you able to see this image of the LP cover?  The notes for one of the songs say "Buffy Sainte-Marie wrote the words and music; the chorus is by Lottie Kimbrough".   That means that Kimbrough wrote the chorus, not that she's performing on it!  Just another Allmusic cock-up, I think!   Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:31, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I had to peer really hard at the image - probably my age. So does that mean that Buffy nicked Lottie's song, re-wrote a few words, claimed ownership and left Lottie (or more likely her offspring)  with nowt.  Sort of thing I'd associate with this crook, or this one, or even him, but I thought Buffy was whiter than the driven bison. Certainly she droned on as if she was. Also, please bear in mind that said AllMusic is a reliable source, unlike some I could mention, the latter of which the Auntie thinks is accurate enough for their quiz show.  Not that those lunatics in charge of Wikipedia would know what was truly "reliable".  Well, that was a good late night rant - I'll sleep well ! - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 01:21, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
 * It looks to me as though all the songs are credited to Buffy Sainte-Marie as writer - perhaps (he said charitably) because no-one could track down Kimbrough's family. Have you seen this?.  Thankfully, some of the most accurate sites haven't been spotted yet by the curators of that list.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:00, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Makes me wonder how many of these artists paid royalties for using her work (because, ah hem) they could not trace her descendants. I have come across that unreliable list before, although not in recent times.  I bet there are hundreds of thousands of references currently within Wikipedia that use most, if not all, of those sites as a source.  Including some entered by me over the years. Oops. As you correctly note, that list is not comprehensive either.  Ah well, ever onwards, ever upwards. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:35, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Chat
Hi Ghmyrtle. I stumbled on Draft:Benjamin Brown French this fellow and think he's quite interesting especially for his journal and collection of photographs. Lots more needs to be added. For some reason I'm having trouble getting the villain from a Tarzan movie added, Draft:Armand Cortes. Draft:Golden Crest Records has been tough to get across the goalpost. Draft:Universidad Loyola de Bolivia is a University in Bolivia that I haven't yet been able to get approved to mainspace. Draft:Moses White was a local civil rights leader that I wanted to work on and found someome else had started. Tone and sourcing are still problematic. Draft:Tilford Cinema Corporation is a short-lived but interesting film company. There's Draft:Edgar Jones (actor). Draft:Astra Film Corp seems abundantly notable to me. Draft:Stranded in the Arcady was a book and a movie. Draft:Jim Horne (Florida politician) certainly qualifies for inclusion as a state senator. Draft:Arrington High this fellow is notable. Draft:Gardiner High School (Maine) wants to exist. Seeking approval for Draft:Waka hurdling has been like trying to jump a boat over a log. But probably the toughest time I've had has been with Draft:Bantaskine which I started about an artist who resided there and then broadened out to be about the park, estate, and its history, but still no luck. If any of them interest you or you'd like me to have a look or help out with any of your projects please let me know. I am restricted from moving drafts to mainspace or creating new articles in mainspace directly, so this is where these are at. Take care! FloridaArmy (talk) 23:28, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi. Just to be clear - I'm not involved in WP:AFC in any way, and never will be.  I came across your article on Denver Ferguson because I'd started to draft an article about him, which I never completed... and that led me on to Leon Claxton, who also seemed interesting.  I'm interested in popular music and culture generally, particularly the African American input, but I'm only really interested in starting or adding to articles where I find the subject matter interesting, or where I have some knowledge or expertise.  I'll take a look at your suggestions but several of the ones you've mentioned seem to be a long way outside my areas of interest.  Take a look at my user page to get an idea of the sort of articles I've started.    Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:49, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Roger. I will let you know if I come across something interesting in that area. I eventually got Freddie Crump approved and his drum performances on YouTube are fun to check out. He reminds me of Flava Flav. He played with Gonzelle White which is another interesting one. Unfortunately, I haven't found any recordings or videos of her. FloridaArmy (talk) 23:54, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I've had a quick look at Gonzell White and tweaked it a little. (I'm sure my helpful elf will come along to sort out the citations!) It looks as though she never recorded. The significance of the three listed as "See also" isn't clear - there are a lot of other articles on other singers of that era...??    I'll check out some of your other suggestions.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:36, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

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Liverpool
If you have chance can you take a look at recent talk page additions by myself, and the current edit war over at Liverpool. Ta Koncorde (talk) 08:53, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've responded on the article talk page.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:50, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Appreciated. Didn't mind which way it went but this has gone on two years now and it seems the Liverpool article attracts few of us for some reason. Koncorde (talk) 15:29, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Bobby King
Hello, again. Can you confirm that the above mentioned is listed in BARE... along the lines of "Bobby King (Robert L. King) (v/g) (Jefferson County, January 29, 1941 — Chicago, Illinois, July 22, 1983)". Page 165, probably ?? The online source will not open for me and, as it is one of only a few reliable sources for this somewhat obscure Chicago blues musician, then every little helps. This is the same Bobby King currently red linked in the Jacques and Marcelle Morgantini article; just in case your memory needs a jog. Sadly mine needs much more than that, these days. Cheers,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 19:08, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's exactly right. "Bobby King (Robert L. King) (v/g) (Jefferson County, January 29, 1941 — Chicago, Illinois, July 22, 1983)".  That is, Jefferson County, Arkansas.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:07, 9 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks - then the article should be in the mainframe thingy by tomorrow. Cheers, - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 21:42, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Draft:Alton Redd
Would you be able to help with this draft? FloridaArmy (talk) 10:53, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Just a few suggestions:
 * His full dates of birth and death (per this book, or this site, for example) should be in the opening sentence
 * The mention of his daughter should be at the end of the article, not the beginning - the article is about him, not her.
 * The Billboard obituary here describes him as a "pioneer New Orleans jazz drummer" - which should help establish his notability.
 * There is a good review of his recordings here, which could be used as a source.
 * He's mentioned by Lionel Hampton in this magazine, p.68 - again, a good source.
 * Hope this helps! Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:58, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Internet Society
Hi G. I wonder if you would be so kind as to cast your eye on this situation. I myself have COI, nevertheless got drawn into an edit war. It needs other people. Wwwhatsup (talk) 20:42, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, it's about as far outside my areas of expertise and interest as it is possible to get!  Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:00, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Sigh. Thanks for looking. Wwwhatsup (talk) 21:11, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Have you tried WP:RFC?  Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:16, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I may go there. The essential question is, is this better than the current (protected) version. Wwwhatsup (talk) 21:18, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

RFC is up. Wwwhatsup (talk) 03:49, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Eddie Rubin article
I came across your comment about Eddie Rubin's article. While there's not a plethora of sources of info on him, there is some in archives and many of his avid fans and musician associates have some knowledge about Eddie's past. Why though, are you intent on removing the article and/or making complaints about it? You must have a lot of free time or something. Most people wouldn't care about the details in articles about old musicians unless there's a statement that claims a crime was committed or something else that's negative or harmful to the person's career and/or reputation. So far though, I see nothing but positive words, interesting stories, and overall gives credit to multiple artists and retells some great times in music history. So what is the problem and who cares if there's a tiny inaccuracy lurking somewhere? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.13.95.140 (talk) 03:31, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The "problem" is that this is an encyclopedia, not a fan site for "avid fans and musician associates". It should be a resource of properly referenced encyclopedic information, not a collection of "positive words [and] interesting stories" that you or others happen to "know" but which no-one else can verify.  Moving this discussion to the article talk page, for others to input.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:09, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!
Happy Holidays text.png Hello Ghmyrtle: Enjoy the holiday season, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers,  Everedux  (talk)  20:08, 25 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Spread the WikiLove; use {{subst:Season's Greetings1}} to send this message

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Robert Petway/Tommy McClellan
Hello Ghmyrtle,

I'm not too good at working the fine points of Wikipedia as a contributor, and I'm stealing time at my desk at work, so I'll be brief. On the basis of the Census/Draft registration documentation I posted, the Gee's Bend thesis of the the birth of Robert Petway seems so speculative as to be highly unlikely. The Census entries state Ann/Annie Petaway/Pettyway and Robert's birthplaces as Mississippi, as does Robert's draft registration (but in Sunflower, not Itta Bena). The fact that Robert "Pitway" and "Tom McClinnan" registered for the draft the same day; they both lived in Benton, MS and worked for the same employer (Williams and Applewhite-- farm owners?) makes it pretty likely these are our guys. We shouldn't be surprised that as of February 1942 they weren't full-time residents of Chicago, I don't think, but McClennan was in Chicago four days four days after registering for the draft, to record for Bluebird.

I also think Robert Petway's presumed birthdate should be changed to ca. 1903 and his death date stated as "unknown." The Social Security Robert Petway seems unlikely to be the same guy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Benhamino (talk • contribs) 18:01, 27 December 2019 (UTC)


 * I think that what you suggest is plausible, and I note that Eagle and LeBlanc in BARE suggest Itta Bena - in Leflore County - as his birthplace, circa 1902. Bob Eagle has commented on 's page here that he thinks the person that Jason Rewald identified (with the 1907-1978 dates) is a different person.  I'm minded to change the article to reflect the BARE dates, while referring to Rewald's alternative position.  Your hypothesis on "Pitway" and "McClinnan" is, as I say, plausible - but unless it's been published in a reliable source it shouldn't really be set out in the Wikipedia article.  Or, at the very least, it should bear a heavy caveat.  Have you discussed it anywhere - for example in this group - of which Bob Eagle is a member, among other scholars?  Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:03, 27 December 2019 (UTC)  PS: This discussion should really take place on the article talk page rather than here.  I'll copy it over there.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:03, 27 December 2019 (UTC)