User talk:Gidonb/Archive 2021

Archive

Please leave civilized messages in any major language. Answers will usually be in English. If the discussion is ongoing elsewhere, or more relevant to an article's talk page, please consider leaving a note drawing my attention to that page. I am flexible: your page, my page, talk page, whatever is more relevant or suits you best. However, please do not post the same message at multiple locations or continue conversations at different places each time. Just tag me if the discussion is elsewhere and my input is needed. I look forward to your communication!

Syrian civil war
Can you start the discussion to change the article name? Thanks Ridax2020 (talk) 12:49, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I did. To no avail. gidonb (talk) 20:21, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Old Jaffa: what did you mean...
... here? " ^Forms the border of Old Jaffa and extends well beyond into Ajami. " What is the sign ^ supposed to point to? In other words, what forms the border of Old Jaffa and extends well beyond into Ajami? Thank you, Arminden (talk) 23:32, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Arminden, thanks for asking! The answer is Yefet Street. gidonb (talk) 23:52, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, sorry for being a bit slow, I had figured it out and wanted to erase my question here. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 00:34, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
 * NP. I took a quick look at the article after you asked! gidonb (talk) 01:33, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Gwendolyn Masin
The nominator of the article here has also nominated the article op NLWP. Are you allowed to edit there? The Banner talk 10:50, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The Banner, funny question! I have decided to quit nlwiki early on, in 2007. It's was too mediocre and too messy for me. I have friends who edit there. I check home WPs as part of my WP:BEFORE so I saw that nomination. gidonb (talk) 12:47, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I had noticed that some people got blocked just because some administrators did not like them. So, that is not the case with you. But I admit that the vinegar-level there is quite high. The Banner  talk 14:36, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The Banner, I edited many Wikipedias and wasn't impressed with the Dutch one. Quitting made sense. With AfDs, I check home wikis at any WP. What else might happen there is not part of my due diligence. I never check. gidonb (talk) 20:00, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay. No sweat. The Banner  talk 20:02, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Johny Messo
Thank′s for you contribution to discussion on the proposed deletion of the article Johny Messo. Unfortunately, that discussion was closed today, in favor of the deletion proposal. Such outcome is quite surprising, since there was no clear consensus for deletion: two votes were in favor of keep, one was for complete deletion, and one was optional - for deletion or merger. Such structure of votes would imply at least relisting, but not total deletion, without leaving even a redirect to the more general article (World Council of Arameans). I am trying to get some clarifications from the closer, but is seems that a review might be needed. Sorabino (talk) 23:41, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi Sorabino, I would have relisted, not closed as delete. The opinions were all over the place and the discussion was relisted only once. If I may be frank with you, your last comment was counterproductive. Your referencing was very helpful. I wish I had unlimited time for Wikipedia but this isn't the case. gidonb (talk) 00:28, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank′s once more, I already proposed relisting to the closer, maybe the review process wont be needed. Sorabino (talk) 00:39, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Thank you, User:7&amp;6=thirteen! 00:23, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Godfrey Edwards
Articles for deletion/Godfrey Edwards I think you meant to vote Keep ;) KittenKlub (talk) 15:56, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi KittenKlub, I meant what I wrote. I looked for sources, found some but wasn't impressed. Of course, I'm always open to stuff I overlooked. Just bring it on! gidonb (talk) 00:15, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Some stroopwafels for you!

 * Thank you, Marnette! I love stroopwafels. I wish all the nominators were as open-minded and thorough as you! gidonb (talk) 01:56, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
 * You are welcome G! Enjoy the rest of your week. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 03:13, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Largest cities of Israel
Template:Largest cities of Israel has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at Templates for discussion/Log/2021 May 17. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 19:23, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Geula Even
The article Geula Even has been proposed for deletion because it appears to have no references. Under Wikipedia policy, this biography of a living person will be deleted after seven days unless it has at least one reference to a reliable source that directly supports material in the article.

If you created the article, please don't be offended. Instead, consider improving the article. For help on inserting references, see Referencing for beginners, or ask at the help desk. Once you have provided at least one reliable source, you may remove the prod blp/dated tag. Please do not remove the tag unless the article is sourced. If you cannot provide such a source within seven days, the article may be deleted, but you can when you are ready to add one. Liz Read! Talk! 00:38, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi User:Liz, she is Israel's most famous female news anchor. I created the article with a source. In any case, meets WP:BASIC. gidonb (talk) 01:55, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I have left warnings for the ref removers. gidonb (talk) 03:15, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Article was never nominated for deletion. Prodding an extremely notable article is, unfortunately, disruptive bahavior. gidonb (talk) 20:18, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Kopstoot for you
KittenKlub (talk) 16:01, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I sure needed that! Drama is not the pleasant part of the Wikipedia. I prefer editing any day! gidonb (talk) 03:13, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * KittenKlub, maybe an opportunity to also plug the Suriname and Dutch Carribean related articles that I wrote or improved. It's not a lot but it's out there.
 * Keizerstraat (2008)
 * Mosque Keizerstraat (2009)
 * Neveh Shalom Synagogue (2009)
 * Dora van der Meiden-Coolsma (2012)
 * Eric Abdul (2017)
 * History of the Jews in Sint Maarten (2020)
 * All the best! gidonb (talk) 03:26, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

For history sake adding:
 * Dwight Eli (2018)
 * Jahacob Curiel (2021)
 * Yael Eisden (2021) gidonb (talk) 18:22, 19 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Another unpleasant feature is that the synagogue got a hit-and-run-tag for lack of sources. My morning task... P.S. I've added the template of religious buildings, because outwardly it seems like all the religions peacefully coexist in Suriname... KittenKlub (talk) 06:33, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * KittenKlub, thank you so much for these edits! This coexistence story deserves to be told but it was overdone when I found this subject matter in the 2000s. There should be good relations between people everywhere. Approaching the Suriname Orthodox synagogue and Ahmadiyya mosque only through what is not adequately working elsewhere is not satisfying. These are organizations in their own right with members, structures, prayers, celebrations, funerals, officeholders, and finances. That's why, a long while back, I changed the setup to standalone articles. Germany still has the articles combined. As both organizations should be held equal, I tied that to Keizerstraat in the links predecessing Wikidata. A little bit of history... gidonb (talk) 05:02, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * KittenKlub, given your huge expertise in the Dutch Caribbean, maybe you can also see if some information is still missing at this page? gidonb (talk) 00:08, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually, I failed to see the significance of that person. It sounds like whitewash as well, because Curaçao did not grow tobacco (it could barely grow enough food to sustain the population) and the reference fails to verify the statement. At that time, it was all about the slave trade, and if Jacob had become rich, he was trading slaves KittenKlub (talk) 06:06, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
 * KittenKlub, you sure know more about this topic than I do! Using your lead I believe it is this Jacob Curiel who engaged also in slave trade. Cacao may have been his leading product. He is not listed in the body of the text, only in the tables. The PhD explains that the trade on Curacao was on the triangle Africa-Americas-Europe, not of local produce. gidonb (talk) 12:48, 8 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I assume that this Curiel is an ancestor of Maduro & Curiel's Bank, the leading bank in the Netherlands Antilles. The real fortunes were made with slaves or contraband (extremely lucrative but never documented) As you've said the cacao was only as an intermediate (somebody else grew it / WIC transported it / a factory in Amsterdam processed it), so it cannot account for the wealth. Slaves OTOH were already a subject which you didn't talk about back then either (not a "kosher" business), so the ships dumped their cargo; the big plantation owners bought what they needed and the rest was sold to people like Jacob Curiel, who bought them, let them rest a bit, so they looked healthier and more alive, and then resold them at significant higher prices to smaller plantation holders. (See: Scharloo) KittenKlub (talk) 14:09, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
 * KittenKlub, these are abhorrent histories. It looks like the article may survive the AfD. If it does, I will rewrite the economic part to include trade in slaves and in cocoa and remove tabacco for which I do not see sources. I'll keep it minimal, just what is supported by the sources we have (the primary one for this part) and get back to this later. I would also remove the brother who is not included as his trading partner in the public sources. Another person is. gidonb (talk) 20:27, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
 * KittenKlub, btw I had given changing my vote to delete some thought because I would make a hefty accusation based on a primary sources. I decided against it as this would also be a form of whitewashing. We can verify the slave trading based on primary sources. These just do not count for notability. Histories are histories. We should not make them any nicer than they were, also when a person shares an ethnic identity with us, or in a more extreme case family relations. The only thing that we cannot include unstated is if he smuggled. gidonb (talk) 15:10, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The reason I voted Delete was because I still don't see the importance of this person (also the author created a whole family tree). The whole problem is that in your document he was just one of many traders and doesn't stand out (both in slaves and cacao). Even the President of the Jewish community isn't that notable, because Willemstad was basically a small village around 1700. P.S. The Maduro and Jessurun families were the two main (feuding) families in Curacao. Notice that this Jacob was partnered with Jessurun in the cacao and later they merged with the Maduros for banking. KittenKlub (talk) 16:12, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
 * KittenKlub, there were many generations between Jahacob's trade partnership with a Jessurun family member and the finance business partnership between the Maduro and Curiel families. Notability in these cases is a bit of a domino process. First comes success in business and with it money. If there is lots of money then the community demands chunks of it and a presidency will be given at some time. If there are other rich families, as you describe, just for a while. Businessmen with much greater capital than others can remain presidents for many decades. The community benefits from their stewardship with business acumen, from their community relations, and especially from their deep pockets. The funds donated and the associated presidency will get a person eternalized such as in the long chapter in Precious Stones. Since all starts with the business and you correctly flagged that part, my dilemma was whether we can get this root cause for notability in a reasonable state through the accessible sources. I reached the conclusion that we can. Notability itself was never an issue for me. Verifiability was my concern. gidonb (talk) 18:04, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
 * KittenKlub, is the article in its current state fair enough? gidonb (talk) 14:00, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
 * It's cool now. KittenKlub (talk) 15:13, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Hannah Nathans page
Hello gidonb, the Hannah Nathans page has had a tone message since October 2017 and I thought I could do some work on that. I can see that the wording is not really encyclopedically neutral yet, but as you seem to be a diehard editor and I have just started here, I was wondering whether you could give me your thoughts about the present state of the article. Do you think it is more up to standards now then when you added the message? Could you help me with pointing to one or two especially awkwardly written bits (in your opinion)? Thanks in advance, --Yoozed (talk) 10:27, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Category:Flemish geographers has been nominated for deletion
Category:Flemish geographers has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Rathfelder (talk) 10:43, 6 July 2021 (UTC)


 * This too was kept. gidonb (talk) 01:13, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Footballer article headings
Please review the MOS at WikiProject Football/Players - no need to specify 'Football career' when there are no other headings, just use 'Career'. It would be fine if, for example, a player was notable as a footballer and a politician - in the same way we only have 'Career' if a player has only played a club level, but 'Club career' and 'International career' if they played internationally. GiantSnowman 14:56, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Precious anniversary
Thank you for keeping it on top ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:48, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Gerda. Much appreciated! gidonb (talk) 03:49, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Simon Berman
Hoi Gibonb, hartelijk dank voor dit uitmuntende artikel wat voor mij echt een voorbeeld is. In de laatste sectie schreef je over een portret van Simon Berman, dat aanwezig in de beeldbank Groningen en waarover ik al een tijdje met hen in overleg ben. Mijn vraag is nu of je in het bezit bent van een overlijdensadvertentie over Gerard Berman of andere gegevens over z'n nabestaanden? Mvg, - Mdd (talk) 11:30, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Wat ik overigens voorheen niet heb gevonden, maar net wel, zijn meer biografische gegevens, zie hier. M'n vraag is of je over nog meer gegevens beschikt? -- Mdd (talk) 21:31, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Mdd, wat een leuke reactie! Bedankt voor het compliment. De gegevens van Gerard Berman (nooit gehuwd, geen nabestaanden) van jwvdhurk lijken mij wel correct. Eventueel zou je nog kunnen kijken of het net zo in het boek van Ajo Berman staat. gidonb (talk) 03:07, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Dit artikel kwam zeven weken terug onder m'n aandacht in een zoektocht naar meer informatie over Willem Kooiman, burgemeester was Koedijk in die tijd. Zogezegd aangenaam verrast door het artikel ben ik op zoek gegaan naar een foto om dit artikel te illustreren. Deze vond ik in de beeldbank Groningen, maar de documentatie aldaar kwam niet overeen. Dat is daar aangepast, en momenteel beschikt de Beeldbank Groningen ook niet over meer informatie over mogelijke nabestaanden. In dit geval kan de afbeelding hier als fair-use afbeelding worden geupload mocht je hier op prijs op stellen. -- Mdd (talk) 14:44, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Graag! gidonb (talk) 03:47, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Prime Healthcare Services
Gidon, back in 2012 you posted on Prime Healthcare Services page that you were concerned the edits were unfair to the subject, since they were slanted heavily toward controversies and allowed no history or background materials. Those problems remain. I am not posting any longer because of a past affiliation, but I noticed that a recent attempt by a third party to update the page repeatedly has not been successful. As far as I can tell the attempt is a well-sourced straight narrative; it's been removed with no explanation. The posting is very similar to what is permitted here Sutter Health and here HCA. Your comments about fairness on Wiki stand, yet I don't see any attempt at fairness here. Is there an explanation somewhere? Kgkeane519 (talk) 20:46, 15 September 2021 (UTC)kgkeane519Kgkeane519 (talk) 20:46, 15 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi Kgkeane519, I'm glad you liked my comments! I stumbled on the Prime Healthcare Services and Prem Reddy articles by accident more than ten years ago and haven't looked at the articles in ages. User:Scope creep has taken the lead in that recently and I am happy someone did. I still see problems, cosmetic or not, but do not have a lot of time to deal with them at the moment. I commend you for turning to someone who has been critical in the past on both pro- and anti-"Prem" narratives and will try to take another look. Another approach is playing it through the talk page (you tried and this was rejected) or through a formal arbitration body. As I said in the past, our articles should not be hit jobs, nor glorification of subjects, but balanced summaries of the sources. Wherever they may take us. gidonb (talk) 00:28, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, Gidon. I'm just looking for fairness here, and compared to what is allowed on other pages involving health care systems Prime is getting royally screwed. I will raise the issue on the Prime talk page (again!) but I've lost faith in the editors' ability to accept thoughtful criticism, at least from someone who admitted a past affiliation. Fairness doesn't seem to matter to some Wiki posters. You raising concerns, on the other hand, might be very helpful, given your established cred on Wiki. Meanwhile, what's the best way to get this before a formal arbitration body? Kgkeane519 (talk) 15:44, 17 September 2021 (UTC)kgkeane519Kgkeane519 (talk) 15:44, 17 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Kgkeane519, the question is never what happens on other pages as the situation there could be also wrong. It's a common novice mistake. If we just copy situations from one page to another, we will copy mistakes and engage in a downward quality spiral because everyone will pick out what is convenient for them. Plus no two subjects are the same. More helpful would be to compare the article with how the company is covered in quality sources, what is warrented by our policies, and what is commonsense reasonable. Not sure about the formal arbitration procedure. I would have to look that up. gidonb (talk) 18:11, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Not to belabor the point about fairness -- I'm not looking for duplication or repeating the mistakes of other pages when I compare and contrast. I'm simply noting that what is allowed on Page A is completely different than what is allowed on Page B, and for mo reason other than the unstated preference of an unnamed editor. By its own standards, Wiki is attempting to establish some degree of continuity and reliability. Those standards are diminished if what is considered appropriate on Page A is inappropriate on Page B. And we're not talking about controversial content or unsourced material. Simple factual narratives. Or worse ... for instance, for what reason is a simple listing of Prime's hospitals nixed? Many of the hospitals have their own Wiki pages that refer to them as Prime-owned, yet you wouldn't know that from looking at Prime's page. Someone needs to oversee the overseers, or at least call them out for random editorial decisions. Kgkeane519 (talk) 20:07, 20 September 2021 (UTC)kgkeane519Kgkeane519 (talk) 20:07, 20 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Kgkeane519, you caught me out of the country, on business, and I do not have time right now to dive into all these histories and articles at the moment or answer all your questions. I do not travel all the time and am not this busy all the time (though more and more). So right now please excuse me but I am going to pick out what is clear to me without extra research, I did mention to start with on the talk page, and still holds just from looking at the titles and paragraphs and disregard your tougher questions. I don't have the information to answer these. This is crystal clear: we absolutely need more neutral, business operations material in the article. I will later take a look at what you wrote. If there is material there that is really missing, not puff meant to counter less favorite coverage this company received but the basic story of a company that provides an essential service, then I will override whoever decided against this content, and put it in the article. I will also move some stuff that belongs in the Prem Reddy article away. I believe I have moved some stuff also a decade ago. It's still or again not right. gidonb (talk) 23:12, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the follow up. FYI, the postings you should review were posted by user CUAOM. Seems like a straight narrative and includes the aforementioned list. They've deemed mine off limits because of my long-ago conflict, unfortunately. Kgkeane519 (talk) 15:40, 21 September 2021 (UTC)kgkeane519Kgkeane519 (talk) 15:40, 21 September 2021 (UTC)


 * My pleasure! gidonb (talk) 16:05, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Update: A recent attempt to update the page was rejected without explanation, even though poster had explained the edits on the talk page. No reasons were given and no one responded on the talk page. Aren't wholesale changes without explanation a violation of Wiki editing codes? There was even an offer to have the discussion moderated by third party editors. No response. User scope creep appears to be judge and jury in the matter...Kgkeane519 (talk)kgkeane519Kgkeane519 (talk)
 * I'll take a look soon! Maybe in the weekend. gidonb (talk) 17:59, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Haven't seen any changes to page... still pursuing?Kgkeane519 (talk)kgkeane519Kgkeane519 (talk)

Category:Ethiopian lyricists has been nominated for renaming
Category:Ethiopian lyricists has been nominated for renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Rathfelder (talk) 07:21, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

List of governors of California by age has also been included in the nomination with List of governors of Texas by age. OCNative (talk) 22:31, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

A kitten for you!
For your work on Spijkstaal

The Banner talk 08:19, 16 October 2021 (UTC) 


 * Thank you, User:The Banner. In my early childhood we used to get our bakery and dairy products delivered with these cars. Sometimes I would get a ride. gidonb (talk) 11:28, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Our milkman had such a car/cart. And many, many, many moons later the husband of a friend had an SRV-wagen from this brand. So, good memories. The Banner  talk 12:29, 16 October 2021 (UTC)


 * User:The Banner, there was no SRV car in our suburb but I have been in one. I believe in my grandparents' town. Plus I still remember the jingle well. gidonb (talk) 12:43, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Misattribution
Re: - Thanks! I thought it was funnier the first way, though :) pburka (talk) 15:16, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * pburka, it sure was funnier. It was so weird that one person attributed their keep to everyone but me. I went into edit mode to pick your name, then copied and pasted the wrong one. I will try to remember your name better now! gidonb (talk) 16:21, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Eran Ortal
Dear Gidonb, the user MrsSnozzyturtele moved Eran's Ortal articale to draft after it was aproved and reviewed. Please help me bring it back to Wikipedia. I think that i wrote about Eran using WP:GNG. If i made mistakes while wrinig it, please help me improve it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Eran_Ortal. Thank you (User talk:Borisshin) — Preceding undated comment added 18:06, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Right now, the topic is not sufficiently supported by sources independent of the subject. User:MrsSnoozyTurtle made a smart move that is actually a second chance to prove the topic's notability. Much better than prodding. Kudos to this editor! Current references support data in the article, not its notability. You have a chance to improve the article with references that support notability, if these exist. gidonb (talk) 19:08, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank for the comprahansive answer, it's hard to find independent sources regarding IDF high ranknig officer's. There are number of reasons why i folow this officer and wrote about him. I love milatery strategy. This why i folow Dado center which he comands on. Ortal is considerd top strategic and tactics milatary officer. He wrote together with the current Chief of stuff IDF "the perception of winnig " for IDF.

i found this https://besacenter.org/hezbollah-missiles-israel-drones/ where his articale is quated by Research Associate at the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies. Another source is in hebrew where Ortal is described as "officer who is from chief of stuff Kohavi inner circle". https://news.walla.co.il/item/3368852. I also found this source which talks about Dado and Ortal as "milatary highly epraised teolegist" https://www.israeldefense.co.il/content/%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%97%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%97%D7%93%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9F-%D7%94%D7%A7%D7%98%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9D. Unforteanatly this sources are only in Hebrew. How can i use them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Borisshin (talk • contribs) 13:09, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * You can add these two articles, resubmit, and wait for a decision. gidonb (talk) 14:26, 13 December 2021 (UTC)