User talk:Gokhan/Archive 01

Late welcome
Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~&#126;); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! &mdash;Khoikhoi 00:51, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
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Uykuluk = Sweetbread
Please make a thorough search before you start an article. It is very important to avoid duplicated articles. I proposed the article Uykuluk be merged with Sweetbread. Behemoth 18:16, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Kurdish propagandists
Some kurdish extremists are trying to add Turkish cities and provinces to the nonsensical [Category:Kurdish provinces], [Category:Kurdish cities] and [Category:Kurdistan]. -Teccen 12:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Some style in edits
Gokhan Bey, I appreciate your efforts for creating new articles dealing especially with the culinary culture of Istanbul. However, some phrases you use in articles contradict with the style required in an encyclopedia. For example, in the article Kokoreç, you recently created, "Be moderate when you first try Kokoreç: after all it's an offal food with a lot of spices!". An encyclopedia is a source of information which claims to be objective and neutral to the extent possible. However, this sentence and the certain phrase is rather in the style of an FAQ website or an informal website of curiosity. In addition to this, an article does not address a second person present. Hence, "In Beyoğlu, one can sit in one of the restaurants in Çiçek Pasajı (Flower Passage) to drink beer" would be more appropriate than "If you are in Beyoğlu, you can sit ın one of the restaurants in Çiçek Pasajı (Flower Passage) to drink your beer". Furthermore, an encyclopedia article should refrain from using adjectives. For example, "Kokoreç goes very good with Ayran, Beer or Cola". This sentence is not in the style of Wikipedia for the mere reason that factual accuracy of such an assertion cannot be confirmed. Thus, a sentence such as "Beverages usually preferred with kokoreç are..." or "Connoisseurs claim that beverages..." would be more decent. Also, see Welcome, once again. Behemoth 22:00, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

html table --> wiki table
Hi Gokhan, I just visited your user page to see who I was talking with... and converted the html table to a wiki table for you. If you prefer it the other way, just revert! --Moby 10:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello
I somewhat further wikified Kokoreç. I think you are a bit impatient about labeling it as a "Turkish dish". I mean, what about kokoretsi and gardoumba? :-) I guess the dish similar to khash you wrote about is paça tiridi, not paça çorbası. You are right, lavash is almost identical with lavaş. There are some culinary articles I started and/or continue contributing. For example, I hope you'll get interested in animelles and make some edits. There's also coda alla vaccinara, which may attract your attention. Oxtail is a delicious food, if you cook it in a pressure cooker, of course. Ciao! Behemoth 13:36, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, not just in such a limited area ("from Greece to Caspian Sea"). For example, at Hindu temples, semolina halva is served as a sacrament, Sikhs use a kirpan to divide it as a sacrificial offering. Ciao! Behemoth 01:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Merhaba!
Hi Gökhan,

Hehe, what specific discussions did you see? I've gotten into some nasty ones as well, or are those what you are referring to? :p I got involved with Turkey-related articles when I started reverting a now-banned-Turkish-ultranationalist-troll named Inanna. Her trolling made me to add a lot of Turkish articles on my watchlist, and after a few months, I guess my interest grew. :)

To create a category, either click on the red link here. (the part where it says "Bogazici Alumni") or go to the search function and type in Category:Bogazici Alumni. From there just click on "create this page". A category doesn't need to have any text in it, I guess it could say "these users are alumnis of Bogazici University", but when a user adds the template to their user page, the category is also added as well. Hope that helped, please ask for clarification if that was too confusing.

Also, I thought it was interesting that you're part Adyghe. I was reading about a closely-related ethnic group (I'm sure you've heard of them), the Ubykh. They spoke a very complicated language. (also called Ubykh), but they were all expelled from Russia and moved to Turkey, where they didn't really retain their identity, much. Is that the same for Adyghes? Anyways, the last native speaker of Ubykh died in 1992.

Muhabbetle. &mdash;Khoikhoi 07:36, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Study in Turkey...
I figured you'd be a good person to ask this to. Are there any programs in the Turkish University system for English-speakign students? I'd really like to study in Turkey, and I can't guarantee me being able to learn enough Turkish before I go to make it worth it. I'm just interested.Dlayiga 02:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Armenian "genocide"
I have a question for you: do you actually believe that the events of 1915-16 amounts to genocide? Lutherian 09:26, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Drama
Hi! I am not from Drama, and to be honest i've never been to that town, nor i know many things about it. but what u said seems interesting, so i will try to find if there is still such a bridge. The ancient name of the town 'Hydrama' indicates that it had many waters (and so many bridges), but if the song that u mentioned is old enough (15th-16th cent.), it is possible that this bridge does not exist anymore...Anyway, i'll see what i can do about it. --Hectorian 14:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

selam
Merhaba,

Biraz garip olcak ama, Adana sayfasında biraz problem yapıyorum. Bir göz atar ve yardımcı olursanız mutlu olurum. Muhabbetle, --TuzsuzDeliBekir 16:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Armenian Diaspora
Hi Gokhan - I replied to your questions on my talk page as best I could. --RaffiKojian 09:24, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The most reliable, quality news source on Armenia in English is www.armenialiberty.org (part of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty). But it does not really cover the Diaspora, which is hard to cover properly.  If you are interested in the news in the Diaspora...  many of the sites are quite partisan - and www.groong.org compiles all of them.  Good luck, --RaffiKojian 03:21, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

PKK
Hey man, thanks for the honesty, I'm sorry if I come accross occasionally as a bit sharp or blunt, but having worked on a lot of articles that attract nationalists it can get pretty frustrating (maybe I should stop before my wikistress gets too much)! Regarding "However it's stated in our media that Roj TV is actually broadcasting materials supporting PKK actions, mentioning killed terrorists as martyrs, inciting violent demonstrations etc, which is a strong debacle now in Turkey.", is it mentioned in any other media? National media often lies, it is best to get many viewpoints on this. For example, before the recent war in Iraq, the UK media was saying that "Saddam had weapons of mass destruction" and all kinds of other lies. We now know that he doesn't. It isn't a perfect rule, but a general rule is, if you can find it mentioned in many countries media then it has more chance of being true. Can you say for sure, as in, have you watched Roj &mdash; have you seen their broadcasts inciting violence or terrorism &mdash; has this been covered by any other media? What do the Kurdish sources say?

The situation certainly is improving in Turkey with respect to minority languages, but like France and Greece there is a long way to go. I'm glad that you are on the side of progress here :)) I agree that having many cultures is a richness &mdash; I did my first degree at a university in Wales, and its a good thing to see and hear a different language and experience a different culture. Having an ethnic identity doesn't always mean separatism. If the state supports national minorities and gives a degree of autonomy there is much less chance of separatism, see for example the UK and Spain which I think do this quite well for Europe (although by no means perfect). - FrancisTyers 12:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Melting pot
Yeah, I know what you mean. I myself am half Jewish, 1/4 Dutch, and 1/4 English. My great-grandparents could speak Dutch for example, but now no one in the family speaks it, there's really no need to. Selam. &mdash;Khoikhoi 16:16, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, really? What part may I ask? &mdash;Khoikhoi 17:28, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, my great-grandmother was from Hilversum and my great-grandfather was from Barneveld. &mdash;Khoikhoi 17:39, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


 * No, I've never been there, but I hope to go there sometime in the future. (As well as Turkey) The only language I speak is English, although I know a little Spanish. Yeah, sure, I know a lot. Matzah ball soup is pretty good. Challah is a good bread as well, we eat it on Shabbat/The Sabbath. Hmmm, I can't really think of anything else for now, but I'll let you know when I remember. :) &mdash;Khoikhoi 01:27, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Ottoman fountain in Sofia
Hi! It's really an interesting question. Sofia underwent some major changes after 1878 to become a modern capital from a middle-sized Ottoman town, and its architecture also changed significantly. I haven't heard of the fountain and it prossibly has been destroyed, but who knows. I could do some more research if you would provide more detailed data, but I don't think I'll come up with something, to tell you the truth — most of Sofia's Ottoman heritage was lost, apart from arguably most notably the Banya Bashi Mosque. → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → 16:24, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Re: Boğaziçi University Template
Hey, about the Boğaziçi University template: I think it'd be much better as "This user is an alumnus of" rather than "This user is graduated from", since the latter is not actually correct in English.

By the way, good work again on the research for the Adana article. —Saposcat 17:12, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Greetings
Hi Gokhan. Greetings from Baku. Grandmaster 05:36, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Re: Talk:Armenian_Genocide
I think that your approach to the matter in that section is entirely reasonable, and to be applauded in an article that—perhaps almost inevitably—tends to miraculously transform itself from an encyclopedia article into a forum for vitriol-slinging and, frankly, nationalistic nonsense (from both sides of the debate).

All of the points you raise in the section are, I think, valid ones, and I think you'll find—from looking at John Smith's comments there—that he actually agrees ... he is only (as I have to admit I myself am) skeptical that even such an ostensibly objective view as the one you are proposing can withstand the sort of blazing passions that are the Armenian Genocide article's stock-in-trade.

Nonetheless, continue with the approach you are using there: it is reasonable and sensible, which is exactly what that page needs. I myself don't know a lot about the issue, but I know enough to be able to say that—whatever happened at the time—it was a bit less black-and-white than something like The Holocaust or the Nanking Massacre.

Also, I hope you understand if I don't get directly involved in the page: I tend to shy away from controversial articles (is it cowardice? perhaps ... ) and content myself with working silently and (hopefully) unobtrusively on Ottoman literature articles and the like. I admire, however, your commitment to such issues. Stay on the path you're on—it's a good one. —Saposcat 17:43, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Gokhan, I am glad you are keeping an open mind about what happened, and are trying to learn more, but trying to include more about Armenian desires for independence in the Armenian Genocide article is dangerous. I agree it should be better covered by wikipedia, but in a seperate article which gets a mention/link from the Genocide article.  Otherwise, it looks (like someone else already said) like you are trying to justify the genocide, which, I assume you are not trying to do.  No nation - man, woman and child, can deserve genocide.  So although that aspect of the history is quite interesting to me, I am afraid I don't think it should be in the same article in much detail, just like Pan-Turkism should be mentioned, but not discussed at length as a possible reason.  If you discuss the desires for independence of some (certainly not all) Armenians in the Armenian Genocide article, it would be like discussing Jewish control of the banking sector in Nazi Germany before the holocaust - again, implying that they somehow deserve it.  A slippery path to go down... --RaffiKojian 03:32, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * No worries, I appreciate your constructive approach as well, and realize you are new. I also understand how hard it is for people like Fadix who have been battling here for so long and often with people who are absolutely closed minded about these matters (on top of being misinformed) or who just show up then disappear... so hopefully with time everyone will see more eye to eye and work together to improve/add to these articles of mutual interest! --RaffiKojian 17:56, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Re: Learning Ottoman and other matters
About the Armenian issue, I won't advise you to either stick with it or to stay away from it—that's your decision. But if you stick with it, you'll have to be extremely patient because you're going to have to deal constantly with high tempers and—more likely than not—people who will not trust anything you do simply because you're Turkish.

As for Ottoman Turkish, don't be intimidated by the alphabet: the alphabet, in its basic form, is actually fairly simple to learn—I did it in about two or three weeks. Reading inscriptions on monuments and such is another matter, in that they tend to use a highly cursive script that is very difficult to decipher (I myself have a hell of a time making sense out of it). Divan poetry, though, you can just read in editions that have been transcribed into the current Latin alphabet (to be honest, these transcribed editions are about all you can find of Divan poetry in Istanbul, even in decent sahhafs). The vocabulary and some of the grammatical constructions can be difficult, of course, but you get more and more accustomed to them the more you read. It does take time—I myself spend a good deal of time poring over even one gazel—but if you like poetry, it's more than worth the effort. —Saposcat 07:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

87.228.138.69
Well, I wouldn't call it vandalism, but I suppose you were correct to remove them. If they want to add pro-Greek links, you could also add links that provide the Turkish point of view. We would call it spamming normally if the links were commercial or personal websites. (See ) I suppose if they were spamming, you could drop the template that I gave you on their talk page, if they continue give them, then. If they won't stop report them to WP:AIV. However, in this instance they were government links, so I guess it's ok. If they were POV-pushing, you could call that a content dispute, in which you couldn't remport them to AIV. Usually in that case the only thing they can get blocked for is 3RR. Hope that helped. &mdash;Khoikhoi 04:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi, there!
No, I am not of Adyghe descent but I am interested in the subject. I think Adyghe and other "Circassian" topics concentrate on the existence in the Caucasus. However, as you may admit, the major part of Çerkes community is diasporic. In my humble opinion, we need a Circassian Diaspora article and even a Circassians in Turkey article. Unfortunately, I don't have much time nowadays. I guess you may make something out so if I have enough time, I may also contribute. Ciao! Behemoth 10:15, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Re: Question
Selam Gökhan!

All is well, thank you for asking. Hmmm, first you must ask the following questions: is the source verifiable? Is it reliable? Secondly you must ask yourself if this information can be found at other sources. Please remember that Wikipedia shouldn't have any original research. Perhaps the info might go at the PKK article, perhaps at the Armenians article. Regardless, I suggest you bring it up on the relevant talk pages first. Hope that helped! &mdash; Khoikhoi 19:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Gokhan
I read the message you left on Khoikhoi's page. In fact, most civilian deaths caused by PKK are/were Kurdish, "citizens of the Republic of Turkey of Kurdish ethnic origins", to be precise. Don't stick on Mavi Çarşı etc., just because these got so huge a coverage in Turkish media. However, the point is most of the deaths in village or hamlet raids were those of village guards, who cannot be considered civilians. Ciao! Behemoth 00:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The rationale of considering village guards' deaths as civilian casualties draws from a confusion still present in Turkish Administrative Law. Geçici ve gönüllü köy korucuları have no place in the scheme of kolluk (law-enforcement) in Turkey, which has Emniyet Genel Müdürlüğü and Jandarma Genel Komutanlığı as main institutions. You see, this may lead to something like that; when a village guard is killed by PKK during an operation, this is not considered a civilian casualty but when he is killed in his village or hamlet, it is considered one. This is odd. Technically, they are not civilian deaths because village guards have been acting as commissioned forces in one of the warring parties of a violent conflict. Ciao! Behemoth 00:28, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Kokoreç
"...lavés au moins deux fois puis trempés dans du lait" not always the same formula for a marinade. I humbly recommend you to eat a kokoreç on Altıparmak in Bursa and İtfaiye Meydanı in Ankara. You know that a true gourmand must dig places. Ciao! Behemoth 23:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Armenians in Turkey
It just needed some light copyediting, but other than that, it looked fine. Thanks! &mdash; Khoikhoi 00:38, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi there!
I had used the word gourmand in its original sense, an "epicure" (one would call a şikemperver in Turkish), but never a glutton. As Brillat-Savarin asserts, "La gourmandise est ennemie des excès".

AS for the PKK thing, I don't think that there is a particular sympathy towards PKK but rather a sympathy for Kurds who are usually seen as a people oppressed by various means in their homeland, a view I won't disagree at all. It is usual that while about more than half of the Kurds live in Turkey and PKK is by far the largest Kurdish organisation there (about a dozen of other Kurdish organisations exist but how many of them will you be able to name?) it is quite normal that this sympathy is often attributed to PKK. Also, you cannot deny that since his arrest Öcalan had become a more reasonable figure for an average European leftist. He had given up his hardline Marxist-Leninist rhetoric, regularly speaks of efforts for a peaceful solution and had called for a commission among Kurds inspired by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa.

I don't know about the 15 yo female combatants article but I guess since it is a report by Britons it should have taken place in a British newspaper. I'll be happy if you can provide a link.

Well, we are not enhanced with a mission of showing the "truth" about PKK. That would be POV pushing and manipulation. First, you should try to see the facts as what they are. Then you may argue that people try to omit some aspects or relinquish them.

BTW, did you see that? 

Since you came from the Netherlands, let me ask you a question. What do you think of the recent establishment Naastenliefde, Vrijheid en Diversiteit? Ciao! Behemoth 16:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Armenian genocide
armenians started an edit war.Adding anything without discussion.85.178.63.78 12:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922)
Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) sayfasının geçmişine göz atmanızı rica ediyorum, yunanlılar sürekli olarak yanlı yazılarında ısrar etmekteler. Tüm kaynaklarımı sunmuş ve mümkün olduğunca (fazlaca) tarafsız olarak gerçekleri ortaya koymuş olmama rağmen sayfa sürekli saldırıya uğruyor, bir yerden sonra tek başıma yapabileceğim fazla birşey de kalmıyor. Zaman ayırıp yunanlıların ve destekçilerinin yanlı yazısının sayfadan kaldırılmasında yardımcı olabilirseniz çok sevinirim.  Kerten k e le b e k        Ⓣ 10:08, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

your last add
I readlly did not get what you ment in your latest comment in armenian genocide talkneurobio 14:59, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi there!
But I guess your "wife-imposed absence" does not prevent you from trolling around the user talk pages :-) I did not know you were married, I guess the poor girl is just trying to protect your sanity. I wish I had someone who held such concerns for me too. Once, I was in for marriage until I was informed that (at least) two people are to be involved in the process. Failing to find a "partner in crime", I diluted my enthusiasm. Looking forward for another nice correspondence, have a nice summer. Ciao! --Behemoth 20:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know how I could not recognise your most recent answer. Sorry for that. Well, people and nations do get "manipulated" not just because they are stupid or bear a tendency to get manipulated but it's a moment that they feel their objectives are identical with the ones of the powerful. At the WWI for instance, Turks got "manipulated" by Germans because they thought they would create a new empire in the east in compensation of the one they had lost in the west. Armenians got "manipulated" by Russians because they thought they could finally achieve the independence they had strived for with the aid of the Allies. I think, if Armenians could prove to be successful, Turks would see Erzurum in a similar way they today see Filibe that was captured long ago by triumphant Bulgarians. You see, it's a malice of nations to get manipulated and, of course, to manipulate. It is always best not to think in terms of nationality or nations. It is an implementation of the nation-state discourse that makes us feel restrained to belong to a nation. If two people from two different (even "hostile") nations find a way to communicate, the only thing left for them to get over is the educational-cultural conditioning, a result of which they feel themselves as Turks, Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, etc. Wikipedia provides an opportunity for such stance but many (if not most) people try to be known as a representatives of a certain nation they feel themselves attached to and act accordingly, in order to present themselves as protectors of "interests" of that nation. It is a struggle to get a share from the power that rules over themselves. Simple power play at individual level. Whatever, again, have a nice summer. Ciao! (in Turkish: selâm ve dua ile) :-D  --Behemoth 18:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Turkey
Hi, Can you keep an eye on the Turkey article? Some anti-Turkish chauvanists are trying to insert some extremely POV sentences about Turkey's history on there, concerning armenians, the cyprus operation etc. This has been going on for some time now. Thank you.--Kilhan 17:11, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Rifat Özbek
Selam Gökhan! Would you like to collaborate with me on an article on Rifat Özbek? I had done some editing on Hüseyin Çağlayan and I am surprised that there is no article on Rifat Özbek here. Şehit asker listesi tutmaktan seni biraz ayıracaktır:) And also from such masterpieces as Greek Muslims and Van Keriztance:) Amicably. Cretanforever

I added a few links in Ahmet Koç page. As for the designer, the correct spelling is Rifat Özbek. For history of Balkan Turks, I suggest we use Rumelia page. Cretanforever

Greco-Turkish War
Merhaba Gokhan Bey: just wanted to express a word of appreciation for your sensible contribution to the Talk page of the Greco-Turkish war article. Your coomments were very well put and helped me better understand the Revolutionary movement and the transition from Ottoman Empire to the T.C. At the moment, I'm quite pissed off with most people who contribute there for reverting my edits and not even bothering to read the rationale on the Talk page or saying why they disagree. So it's encouraging to see someone like you actually making cogent arguments. My thanks. TheArchon 05:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

My dear Gokhan
My dear Gokhan, it was ver nice to see you appear at my messages list, and even nicer to read your beautiful comments - thank you so much! :) Now that we're here, allow me to tell you I find your country fascinating, and one of my dreams is to visit Istanbul someday. Walking its streets, seeing its people, feeling the History at every corner... and tasting your world famous cuisine, of course! ;) I see that you are somewhat busy these days - I hope everything goes just fine. I expect to talk to you soon, you'll always be welcome to drop by my talk page, and I'll make sure to do the same, I swear. Çok tesekkür ederim! :) Big hugs,  Phaedriel   ♥  The Wiki Soundtrack! ♪ - 10:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Turkification
May I bring to your attention the Turkification article. There seems to be an edit war involving a couple of Greek users who seem all the too-eager to insert some highly POVish statements. It seems that there are unable to comprehend the scope of the article and Im unable to revert for fear of breaking the 3RR. Would you take a look over there? Thanks in advance--Kilhan 12:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey man, could you bring up specific complaints at the talk page please. You may also be aware that there is a comparable article, Hellenisation, referring to a similar practice by Greeks. - FrancisTyers · 17:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Back
Hey Gökhan! I've finially returned as of yesterday. Some of the best food I had was definately some of the Druze food as well as getting falafel in pita bread in the various cities of Israel. How have things been with you? &mdash; Khoikhoi 19:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Input requested
Hey man, could we get your input here? - FrancisTyers · 20:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Deletion
I see you are a Turk, can you please help delete This article, here?Armanalp 16:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Türkiye Portalı
Merhaba geçenlerde Türkiye Portalını seçkin portallara aday gösterdim Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Turkey/archive1. Fakat bir Vikiproje Türkiye üyesi dışında kimse oy kullanmadı. Gelen karşıt oylarla kabul edilmemiş oldu. Lütfen oyunuzu kullanın.--Absar 12:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)