User talk:Gonnym/Archive 4

Template:Middle-earth
Hi, sorry to bother you, but I think you've made it look as if Template:Middle-earth is being merged into Template:Arda Realms Age1, when you've rightly proposed the reverse. This has caused odd warnings to pop up on various articles such as Lord of the Rings. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:49, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Not a lot I can do. I used Twinkle on the Arda template, and it did the rest and the documentation at Tfm isn't helpful. Sorry I can't help more. --Gonnym (talk) 15:52, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

"Nathan Heywood (Arrowverse)" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Nathan Heywood (Arrowverse). Since you had some involvement with the Nathan Heywood (Arrowverse) redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Kailash29792 (talk)  07:14, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

The Family Channel
Hello – I closed Talk:The Family Channel (American TV network, founded 2008) which had been hanging around a while. I've done my best, but it likely that there are some redirects and wikilinks that need repair. Regards, Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 18:47, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the close. I've fixed all remaining links. --Gonnym (talk) 22:53, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Oops – I may have messed up this one: it looks like the channel itself was founded in 1977. And it didn't become "The Family Channel" until 1990. I'm not sure where I got "1980" from: either the History of Freeform (TV channel) has changed since I checked it, or I typed "1980" when I meant "1990". Either way, the redirect should probably be moved to either The Family Channel (American TV network, founded 1977) or The Family Channel (American TV network, founded 1990). You can either choose what you think is best, or ping me and tell me where you want me to move the redirect (if I do it, I don't think I'd leave a redirect behind after moving it...). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:37, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It would seem the 1990 is the more correct one, as the previous name was "The CBN Family Channel" according to the article. So better not to keep the redirect. I'll go over the links with AWB. So how do we move the page without creating the redirect but also fixing the links? --Gonnym (talk) 15:54, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I can move the page without leaving the redirect, as a WP:Page mover. But, unfortunately, fixing all the incoming links is going to take another WP:AWB run. (Oops. Sorry. ) I'll move the redirect right now. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:59, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅ – moved to The Family Channel (American TV network, founded 1990). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:04, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
 * AWB done. --Gonnym (talk) 16:17, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Oz
Thanks for the revert, without checking I thought the page was about the Oz television series, not the book-series characters. When one editor jumps to a conclusion it's good Wikipedia collaboration that another one is there to catch them. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:56, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I had to double check the link to make sure of that myself, as such a glaring error in that guideline that I've looked at hundreds of time was very surprising. --Gonnym (talk) 12:44, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

You've got mail!
 Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 14:40, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Template:Middle-earth
Yes, I see the brackets. However I fail to understand the reason to include a chapter ("The Scouring of the Shire") with "main works", let alone to compare The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen to the three volumes of The Lord of the Rings. Said so, I am not willing to start a debate over this template. ᚪᛋᚦᚩᚾᛏ (Asþont) 📯 09:10, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Regarding The Scouring of the Shire, its first sentence in the lead says "The Scouring of the Shire" is the penultimate chapter of the epic fantasy The Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien., which is why it's placed under The Return of the King, being a part of it. If Wikipedia had an article about each chapter, then each one of them would be similarly placed here. In a similar fashion, the first line of The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen says The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen is a story within the Appendices of J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings. which is why it's placed under the The Lord of the Rings section. --Gonnym (talk) 09:16, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Wikitables
So, I'm looking at Filmography tables this morning, and all of a sudden, I notice that the cells in wikitables all have a gray background today, whereas before they all had white (or no?) background. I'm assuming that this is a mistake that somebody made in the code for 'wikitables' recently, but I have no idea where to look for this (or what to fix) – do you have an idea where the "code" for wikitables is stored? And/or, who to ask about this change?... Thanks. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:25, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I think here. Are you sure something has changed though? It seems the same to me. --Gonnym (talk) 13:34, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The cell backgrounds are definitely a gray color (at least, that's what I'm seeing), whereas they were white before. The new way is definitely worse, IMO. But this is certainly above my paygrade, and as I don't know how to do a Phab order, etc. Hopefully somebody with skills I don't have will figure out what change was made to Wikitables recently and fix this color issue... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:44, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

IB substing
Just to drop a note regarding your comment at TFDH, there isn't a guide to infobox substing because it's a pain in the arse. Unless you want every parameter of the IB to be subst in, you need to set up every parameter inside an param so that only the present params are substed over. I copied an example, the first half is the "not being subst"/"normal" code, and the second half is the "being subst" code. Bit of a faff. For IB animanga I'm just doing a parameter swap and redirecting, which involves a hell of a lot fewer nested #if statements and a lot less troubleshooting. Primefac (talk) 00:28, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah that makes complete sense. I was trying to subset it myself and even after cleaning most of the code it still didn't work. Your idea was much better, thanks! --Gonnym (talk) 16:04, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Confusion by automated edits
Hi! I'm confused by some of the recent edits of yours that have appeared on my watchlist, like this, this and this. What purpose do they serve? — Bilorv ( talk ) 22:18, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * If you preview the article with that version you'll see that those articles use unsupported parameters, such as season_list. While removing that, I've also removed unused parameters, as a template shouldn't really be copied with empty parameters, just some general maintenance. --Gonnym (talk) 23:38, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Right, I see the  reasoning now, but not the reasoning for supported parameters. Why shouldn't a template be copied with empty parameters? I find this is often very helpful when outlining an article, where I want to come back to adding more infobox details later (but it would interrupt flow to do it immediately), or where another editor will fill those parameters in if they see them in the edit window. — Bilorv ( talk ) 07:23, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * We'll have to disagree on that. As someone who cleans up a lot of infoboxes uses, I see how these parameters are misused many times. If something is usually missing, more often then not, it's either not known, unwanted, or just not part of the show. If you feel otherwise, just add them back. --Gonnym (talk) 08:51, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Arrow Season 5 needs improvement
, you undid the change I made to Arrow (season 5) when I was trying to bring the plot length to WP:TVPLOT's length of 100-200 words. It's fine if you disagree with my changes, but it's better if you also try to make improvement than just revert it as the problem still exists. So I'm going to make another attempt to cut the 24 words that need cutting, and if you don't like the change find, but please follow WP:BLD's "present a path forward". Thanks. ToeFungii (talk) 02:55, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I've seen your changes across all the Arrowverse articles, some of them were changing 1-3 words. Even if the word length was 3 over the guideline, who cares? Seriously, do you think 3 less words makes it better? Do whatever you want, but if you remove actual character names with links from the summaries, I'll probably revert, as there is a reason why those names and links are there. --Gonnym (talk) 15:50, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Special:Diff/954649562
Sorry for replacing the name, I probably copied it from what Rater spit out. However, I don't see how this is harmful and why it should be undone. Also, I don't see your watchlist and can't tell which ones you mean. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 15:39, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, there is a huge and stupid (imo) prohibition on using AWB or any other tools to change small likes like template names. I personally dislike redirects as they have a huge downside when coding modules which depend on finding a specific name. So if the page already uses the correct and true template name, I'd like it to stay that way and not be changed to some pointless redirect. I know you can't see my watchlist, my point was that I've seen this happen at least another time, so I assumed it must happen more. If it didn't then great, but please make sure you don't change any others. --Gonnym (talk) 15:48, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll be more careful now. However, my changes did add the WikiProject Redirect template and were not only about changing the name of the other one. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 15:54, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Category:Batwoman (TV series) has been nominated for deletion
Category:Batwoman (TV series) has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. ―Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 11:52, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Typo in module might matter
Hi, I updated a category name within a comment in Module:Fiction-based redirects to list entries category handler but could not see where the category name is actually  coded. Please check whether it's in a sub-file or something I missed.

I also noticed the spelling "seriesParamater" in lines 110 and 122, mis-spelling but would not matter if consistent - please check whether this matters, as "seriesParameter" is also used further down. – Fayenatic  L ondon 22:34, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey, thanks for letting me know about the typo. It's now fixed! Regarding the category, it's handled in Module:Fiction-based redirects to list entries category handler/RedirectType at lines 105 and 106. 105 is now fixed, and 106 will be need changing if/after the sub-categories get moved as well. --Gonnym (talk) 23:45, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Question at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pakistan
Hi, I was looking at this page and I just noticed your question from late 2018. Do you still need an explanation (if so, I'm willing to help out), or were you able to find an answer? M Imtiaz (talk · contribs) 15:44, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey, yes, that would still be useful information! --Gonnym (talk) 09:36, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Did somebody edit the 'Series overview' module/template recently?...
Did somebody edit the 'Series overview' module/template recently? I could swear it used to use TableTBA for the "TBA" in the template, but now I'm noticing it's "full-sized" text for the "TBA", and it looks... not good to me. So, do you know if this a recent change?... TIA. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:54, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Last edit to the module was by Alex 21 on April 24 and that did not adjust anything TBA related. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:21, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I also checked and couldn't a difference in the usage of it going even further back. --Gonnym (talk) 09:36, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Category:Vixen (web series) has been nominated for deletion
Category:Vixen (web series) has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. ―Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:52, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Category:Freedom Fighters: The Ray has been nominated for deletion
Category:Freedom Fighters: The Ray has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. ―Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:52, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Category:Constantine (TV series) has been nominated for deletion
Category:Constantine (TV series) has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. ―Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:53, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Requested edits on a protected page
Hey, just as a note for next time, there's a section on WP:RFPP dedicated to requesting edits on a protected page here. Your request was processed no problem but just thought I'd let you know.  bibliomaniac 1  5  17:58, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Editing sandboxes
Hi Gonnym. Thanks for making this edit to my sandbox. The edit was harmless (and useful because it made me look for the correct way to identify a location) but people use their sandboxes for experimenting with ideas for content and formatting and may not appreciate you tampering with their experiments. It could be more helpful to put a comment on their talkpage perhaps but even then you may find people don't like it. --Northernhenge (talk) 22:50, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Nomination for merging of Template:Infobox reality talent competition
Template:Infobox reality talent competition has been nominated for merging with Template:Infobox reality competition season. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. TheTVExpert (talk) 18:22, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Cleaning up after speedy category moves
Hello, I believe that you recently [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Speedy&oldid=961907220 triggered] the speedy move of the following categories: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, and are therefore responsible for cleaning up after the move, which is particularly necessary because of the DISPLAYTITLE magic word. Could you please take care of this? --bdijkstra (talk) 09:21, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ya know, not that I have a problem fixing these (which I did), but nowhere in Categories for discussion/Speedy does it say that the requester is responsible for this, nor did I actually even move the page. It would be much more logical to assume that the bot should handle this, or the admin that processed this. Please do not leave me more messages like this again. If you find an issue, just fix it. --Gonnym (talk) 09:31, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * My apologies, JJCM89 claimed here that the admin who lists the move is responsible, so I looked on the wrong page. Unfortunately it is not obvious who the responsible admin is (in this case it is user:Ymblanter). Issues like this happen every day, usually by inexperienced editors, but I expect experienced editors and particularly admins to clean up after themselves. --bdijkstra (talk) 09:59, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I have some workflow for cleaning up, and for these moves I have not yet completed it. Thanks anyway for helping.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:06, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Discussion at Template talk:Infobox television
You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:Infobox television. — Young Forever (talk)   18:47, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

A word
Many thanks for your inputs. However, I did find your last comment very close to rude. I am a native English speaker with full command of my mother tongue, and for my sins an 'A' grade in an school certificate in its usage. I would appreciate it if you could remain moderate, especially in edit comments. It is also possible that WP:OWN may also be coming into play here, though of course it's always hard to be sure of that; you might like to examine your conscience on that matter. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:18, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think my comment was rude. "Maps, reference" is really meaningless. Is "Reference" a WP:REFERENCE? Regarding the WP:OWN, if indeed I was owning, I'd have added long ago the missing characters to the template which you disagree with. As can be seen by the edit history, I've not added those once. --Gonnym (talk) 11:35, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

About Bigg Boss
Hi As your a well known big brother expert could you please revert the edits Pavan Sparkle has done on Bigg Boss Tamil 1 and Bigg Boss Kannada (season 7) as the tables have too much Colors on them as this is not like the tables on big brother pages. Thanks.
 * I really don't know how the colors should be handled in those tables. A better place to ask is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Big Brother. --Gonnym (talk) 20:11, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

It should look like this Bigg Boss (Hindi season 12) the user has done it wrong. Can you please revert to the time before Pavan Sparkle has edited that. There should be any color on the names of the contestants and the weeks on top even with housemates status.
 * I mean it should be like this again,  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4C8:63:8069:E4F6:524B:8D04:F63 (talk) 20:55, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey, I started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Big Brother as again, I'm not familiar with the project guidelines for those pages. Please add any comments there. --Gonnym (talk) 12:14, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I replied at the project talk page but in short I reverted the changes on Bigg Boss Tamil 1 and Bigg Boss Kannada (season 7) because the changes violated both MOS:ACCESSABILITY and MOS:TABLES which trumps WP:BIGBRO's manual of style in all cases. Also for future reference Bigg Boss (Hindi season 12) (actually in fact most of the Bigg Boss articles) do not adhere to WP:BIGBRO's manual of style. A good reference point would be Big Brother 21 (American season) or Big Brother (British series 19).   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    19:16, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Templates
Are you seriously suggesting that no template changes can be made to any articles that use either template? Fob.schools (talk) 09:54, 15 July 2020 (UTC)


 * It's bad faith to change templates while a discussion to delete one is being held. I could have replaced those 14 uses then nominated the template as unused. Would that be ok? Gonnym (talk) 10:04, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't have bothered me. Fob.schools (talk) 11:22, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Module:Infobox television season name
Hey, whatever you did to the module:infobox is causing a error that's appearing on every page using it. SpectresWrath (talk) 04:29, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That's obviously not true as I can't see it on xxxHolic (season 1), xxxHolic: Kei or Haikyu!! (season 4) which you've edited. It would be much more helpful next time if you actually say what page had the problem instead of exaggerating. --Gonnym (talk) 06:47, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Their was an error appearing on the infobox since I seen it on the pages using the season infobox. But, if you don't believe me whatever then. SpectresWrath (talk) 16:24, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Tracking section?
Do you have a link to info on ...section begin=Tracking... ? — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 19:28, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Transclusion --Gonnym (talk) 19:37, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Category:Reggio Audace F.C. to Category:A.C. Reggiana 1919
I'm still confused as to why the discussion was opposed both times. On 28 July the club was renamed from Reggio Audace F.C. to A.C. Reggiana 1919. Shouldn't C2D apply? Why should A.C. Reggiana 1919's category be Category:Reggio Audace F.C.? Nehme1499 (talk) 13:31, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey, User:Armbrust wrote: The main article was only recently moved and without discussion. So oppose speedy at least until the recent name change isn't verified by at least one reliable source. and I asked this time if anything has changed since 2 weeks ago as I didn't see any talk page discussion. Regarding the player category, those should never change as those are categories which represent what was true at that time. A a club changing a name doesn't mean a player who played years prior, now also played for this new club. --Gonnym (talk) 13:51, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately I didn't read any of the comments (on both discussions) as I wasn't pinged. I mean, granted that no one gets pinged in these discussions, but having the whole page in my watchlist was a bit overkill as I was only interested in one discussion out of dozens.
 * Anyway, regarding Category:Reggio Audace F.C. (not players or managers), shouldn't the main category be in line with the article's name? I have added a reliable source to back the name change (Calcio e Financa), there are hundreds more online. Regarding Category:Reggio Audace F.C. players and Category:Reggio Audace F.C. managers, I fully understand. This would require manual work I guess, going to each single person and manually changing (and subsequently creating) the category based on the club's name at the time they played/managed. Nehme1499 (talk) 14:06, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * If you can find good reliable sources for the name change, add them to the article and then start a normal category move request and point to those references. Because the article itself wasn't moved with a discussion and it was just recently done, that usually isn't enough to justify a speedy move. This will take a bit longer, but there probably is no rush either so at worst it will take 1-2 weeks. Regarding the player, I can completely understand the pain. We had some moves with Disney-Fox related categories which had to go back and forth and then created categories for the new studios. It takes time, but the end result is a good reflection of the history. --Gonnym (talk) 14:11, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

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Category:Television series by network
Hi Gonnym

I have finished tagging the categories for Categories for discussion/Log/2020 August 15. Congrats on putting it all together.

As a followup, it seems to me the parent categories (i.e. the subcats of Category:Television series by network) should also be renamed to "original programming". However, I am unsure of what format would be best.

Take e.g. Category:American television series by network.

I think the least ugly formulation is Category:Original programming by American television networks

... but there are several other ways this could be structured. Any thoughts? -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 13:25, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I completely missed you posted this, sorry! I agree that the parent is not good, but while searching for a better name, I've ran into a problem that's endemic to the whole tree. First, the parent category Category:Television series by network has both network categories and Category:Serbian television shows by channel, as I believe that "network" is not something universal (I'm pretty sure that in my country we only use "channel"). So that's the first issue. But a greater issue is this: Category:Television networks has mixed categories such as Category:Television channels and networks by content, Category:Proposed television channels and networks; Category:Television channels redirects to Category:Television stations; and that category has mixed categories such as Category:Television channels and stations by year of establishment. I think that once the top level is fixed, it will be easier to fix the sub-categories, including Category:Television series by network. --Gonnym (talk) 18:15, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

AoS image question
I'm not sure if you saw this at all, but the AoS social media team put up this great video showing all of the the title cards the series has used. Seeing it made me feel it'd be good to replace the GIF we have currently at Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.. I know you and I have been working on a bunch of the MCU files, but I wasn't sure how much knowledge you have regarding non-free media and meeting the criteria. I've already extracted the video and done some editing to speed it up and trimmed the front (which is the 100th episode opening), the end, and a little in the middle, to ultimately convert it to a GIF. This has gotten it down to about 30 seconds, and I feel like that still might be too length to pass NFCC. And if I speed it up more to get the time down, I feel like that defeats the purpose of having the media to visualize the title cards. Alternatively, we could use External media, but I'd like to upload it to the site if we think we can. Also want to ping if he has any thoughts on this. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:51, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I think it makes sense to take advantage of it rather than sticking with the current GIF which doesn't have all the latest logos, but I too am not sure what the rules are exactly. I also agree that we don't want to have it so fast that you can't even see the different logos. If there isn't a good solution then I don't think including the link as external media is bad though. - adamstom97 (talk) 11:51, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * By my count, there are 17 distinct logos/typefaces. I'll keep working on the file on my end, see if I get anything I think could be usable per what we've said. As I was thinking more of options, I thought of just using static images of each, but I think the animations help in some instances such as the second dusting one. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:47, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not too familiar with these rules and neither Non-free content or Non-free content address video clips so not really sure what is acceptable per policies here. I'd assume using the clip as is would not be acceptable, though to be honest, if you "re-create" it without the audio then it might be ok, but again, I'm not sure. Anyways, an EL would still be a good idea. --Gonnym (talk) 09:08, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, it would definitely be without audio. The goal is to edit it into another GIF like we have currently. In the coming days I'm going to spend time working on it, see if I can get it to what I would feel is an acceptable length, while still looking good to be informative. I also felt when I uploaded the current GIF, I found policy info on clips and GIFs, but I can't seem to find that now, which I thought would help in determining what to do. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:18, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh and I guess a follow up thought. If we go the EL route, do we feel we should have that and the current GIF, or simply the EL? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:19, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think it would hurt to have both, if we could get away with it, though it may raise questions as to why we have the shorter one when we clearly have access to the longer one. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:43, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Okay, so I edited something that came out to 29 seconds. The original is about 1:35 seconds, so this about 1/3 of that. This is what it came out as. I'm trying to figure out if we want to use this how to make the file type a GIF, because it's currently an MPEG 4. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:41, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * At 29 seconds, it also might be too large a file to make a GIF too. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:43, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I think any faster and it won't be useful. But it looks good in my opinion. --Gonnym (talk) 18:09, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed. And as you can see, I edited it to keep it to the unique title cards as much as possible. Pinging for his thoughts. If he is in agreement as well, I'll figure out how to make it a GIF file type to upload. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:22, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me, great job! - adamstom97 (talk) 23:58, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Great, I'll upload this version over the existing file tomorrow and adjust the non-free rationale and info in the article pertaining to it. I do have the existing file saved (as the original uploader), should there be objections. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:04, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Skye/Daisy name formatting
Hey. I feel as thought the Daisy "Skye" Johnson formatting for the character list is more appropriate than Skye / Daisy Johnson. Yes, you are correct that Skye was not a nickname, but I feel the previous formatting was still correct in conveying the names the character went by. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:14, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I beg to differ, since quoted names are almost always nicknames like Tommy "The Machine" Gunn, Tony "Duke" Evers and Miles "Tails" Prower. Kailash29792</b> (talk)  15:50, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * If you agree that it isn't a nickname, then the quotes are incorrect to use. We always use slash ("/") when we talk about alternative names. They are usually "alter ego" or "comics" names but it also works for cases such as this. --Gonnym (talk) 22:29, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * What about doing "Daisy (Skye) Johnson / Quake"? I think I'm just trying to avoid having two sets of slashes, in order to clearly delineate names over hero names. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:44, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * In case you missed my comment above, thoughts on that formatting? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:23, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I did miss this. I'm still not sure. Skye really wasn't a nickname and parenthesis still makes it seem like it was. It's just as valid as "Daisy" and I wouldn't want to see "Sky (Daisy) Johnson" either. --Gonnym (talk) 14:02, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * In my earlier comment, my main issue is having a second slash to separate Skye from Daisy Johnson, and then the slash to separate the hero name of Quake. Is there some other type of punctuation we could use for the first slash? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:56, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, our usage of slash seems not really MoS compatible (MOS:SLASH), but I don't have anything better. We could use "aka" but that would make those titles longer. List of Arrow characters has several uses of 2 slashes. --Gonnym (talk) 17:04, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I think it is wrong to suggest that two of her three names are superhero names when only one of them is, and that is what we are doing with slashes since we only use those for superhero names on other characters. In saying that, I don't know what the best solution is. My preference at the moment is probably to go back to how it was as I think it worked fine before. - adamstom97 (talk) 19:32, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * That convention is not a global wiki one, as shown in the Arrow list, which means that users aren't expecting it nor did we ever say in the article that the style is "real name / superhero name". On the other hand, the previous style was incorrect as 'real name "name" last name' always (including outside of wiki_ means that the name in the middle is a nickname, which Skye never was. --Gonnym (talk) 19:52, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

TNBA
A few things:


 * 1) You miscounted here by two people.
 * 2) TNBA falls under the scope of WP:COMICS as much as it does any other project.
 * 3) It's fascinating that the redirect has been reverted, but not the actual merger (making the article effectively useless either way).

Ultimately, this is the fourth season of Batman: The Animated Series, not some sequel TV series. Even if it stays, it will need to be renamed Batman: The Animated Series (season 4) just like The Adventures of Batman & Robin (the third season) to comply with Wikipedia standards.

I went ahead and linked the discussion at WT:Television and tagged Pago. Let's see if anyone responds.  Dark knight  2149  15:23, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I see only you, JOEBRO64 and QuestFour at the discussion. While no article belongs to any WikiProject, if your aim at discussing a TV series is truly to discuss it, it should be where TV editors are watching, and that isn't WP:COMICS. It does not need to be WP:WPTV either, but WP:MOSTV or Notability (television) would still be better options. I haven't gone and cleaned up after you. I expected that after that user reverted it, the bold move would be discussed and not re-reverted. --Gonnym (talk) 15:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Precious anniversary
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:31, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/2020 Infobox television channel redesign proposal
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/2020 Infobox television channel redesign proposal. Raymie (t • c) 07:02, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

italic titles for templates
Hi, I'd like to know what your reasoning is to not have the template title italicized. I think that it shows that the template automatically italicizes it. Where do you find this discussion to not italicze the template? Funandtrvl (talk) 14:46, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Italics are used for specific reasons, see MOS:ITALICS. A template name is not one of those. --Gonnym (talk) 14:49, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Then, there are half of the templates in this page that need to be changed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Auto_italic_title Funandtrvl (talk) 14:58, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

ISO
Just wanted to check, now that the ISO TFD has hit a point where I'll likely close and implement tomorrow, that the intention here is basically to convert each usage of with. Are there any exceptions or oddities that would gum up my bot simply going through all of the listed templates to convert them to essentially autosubt wrappers? Primefac (talk) 01:35, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure your bot is currently needed. I know has written an AWB script to first convert each template into a wrapper to catch any usages which are not ISO 639. So I think that is the first step. I pinged them here. --Gonnym (talk) 07:45, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know what an autosubst wrapper is. I don't know what your bot does.  I had thought to edit the  templates to replace the plain-text language name with the matching .  Doing that will allow me to fix usage errors as they occur.  While I don't expect many errors, I would prefer to fix them as they occur rather than have to deal with a flood of errors were a wholly automated process (your bot or someone else's bot) to make the replacements en masse.  Once the plain-text names have been replaced in the  templates and any errors fixed, then a bot that can convert transclusions of  to  would be handy.  Does your bot do that?
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 10:47, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry, forgot that not everyone is familiar with my tasks/procedures. My thought was to do the first step as you describe, editing each template to be a wrapper of ISO 639 name. I figured I could use my bot to automate the process and avoid the 1200 or so manual edits. As you say, if and when any errors have been fixed, then we can use User:AnomieBOT/TFDTemplateSubster to have the bot subst away all of the transclusions of the nominated templates. Primefac (talk) 17:08, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It is not clear from User:AnomieBOT/TFDTemplateSubster if the rend result of the subst is:
 * or
 * → French
 * If the latter, that would be wholly unacceptable.
 * I have an awb script that I had planned on using to walk through the and .  That script replaces  with  and replaces the plain-text language name with .  If I do it, I'll fix whatever errors occur; if you do it, you can fix the errors unless they are caused by Module:ISO 639 name, which I will fix.  So, is it you or is it me?
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:42, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It's the former. However, since you do already have the script ready to go, I suppose I'll let go ahead with the conversion as described. Let me know when it's complete and I'll take care of the substing. Primefac (talk) 18:15, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll probably start on it this afternoon or tomorrow.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 19:38, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * @Primefac: Script run, errors handled, so I think that I am done. I believe that the list of templates at the TfD is up-to-date and correct.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 15:35, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Excellent. All that's left is to let the bots orphan them. I'll delete when all is said and done. Primefac (talk) 19:24, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * @Primefac: Script run, errors handled, so I think that I am done. I believe that the list of templates at the TfD is up-to-date and correct.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 15:35, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Excellent. All that's left is to let the bots orphan them. I'll delete when all is said and done. Primefac (talk) 19:24, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

llink v. ISO 639 name
Umm, is a redirect to  which is. What benefit are you hoping to achieve by making the changes that you did to Template:Citation_Style_documentation/language/doc and ?

cf:

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:47, 25 August 2020 (UTC) This search shows that there are more than three templates using. Likely, in all cases, the  can be replaced with.
 * There are 4 templates that use, 3 of them add the yes parameter. All 3 are used 12 times. The mountain template one gave it ~10 or so more uses. I don't really think such a low usages for 3 templates really necessitates these 3 separate templates. But you can revert if you disagree. I'm planning to anyways bring these to TfD later on as a secondary cleanup, after the ISO 639 name x templates are deleted. --Gonnym (talk) 13:51, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:13, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Thoughts on removing Living Dead?
I'm thinking of proposing the Living Dead article for deletion and keeping the Dead series and the RotLD series under their own separate articles. You seem to have strong opinions about the article, so wanted to reach out to you first. Feel free to respond here or on the article's talk page. - Enter Movie (talk) 20:23, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I haven't been involved with that article in a long time, but if you cannot find sources that indeed talk about the Living Dead as a group of films which don't only include the two film series, but also these unofficial films, then maybe deletion is correct. But if there are sources, then the article is a reason to be kept. My opposition was mainly for duplicating the two existing series articles (which should stay separate as I'm sure there is enough to justify each one). --Gonnym (talk) 20:27, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

List of Malcolm in the Middle characters
There are various character redirects linking to Malcolm in the Middle. Could you please fix them using AWB to target to the above mentioned list? -- <b style="color: black;">Kailash29792</b> (talk)  17:36, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah np. I can do it tomorrow I think as I'm in the middle of something else in AWB and don't want to lose where I stopped. --Gonnym (talk) 17:37, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Done. --Gonnym (talk) 14:45, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion tags
Hello, Gonnym,

I know you are a veteran editor but I just wanted to remind you that when you tag a page for any kind of deletion, you need to post a notice of this tagging on the talk page of the page creator. If you use Twinkle this is done automatically, so this is very convenient and I recommend the tool. Thank you. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 06:00, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I do use twinkle, as can be seen by the edit summary :) --Gonnym (talk) 09:04, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

List of awards for supporting actor
I do not want to get into an edit war over this. This is typical of the many lists linked from Lists of awards. A list of similar things is not the same as a disambiguation page. All the awards have different names, and very few readers will think there is just one global award for supporting actor. I propose to restore the list to a regular list, as is has been for many years. You may then open a discussion on the talk page over whether it should be made a disambiguation page. If it were to be done it should be renamed award for supporting actor, and stripped down to pages that contain the phrase "supporting actor".

I agree that it would be useful to review the inbound links and fix them to point to specific awards where appropriate. I note that very few articles link directly to the list. A possible approach would be to make redirects like Best Supporting Actress into disambiguation pages, with a sample of entries that contain the phrase "Best Supporting Actress" and a link to the list. These would not be very useful disambiguation pages, so do not have to be at all complete, but would show up as probable errors on pages linking to them. I can do that. Aymatth2 (talk) 22:32, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
 * If you think making an almost identical in nature page is the better solution, then sure. --Gonnym (talk) 07:47, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

I have done that. If you check Special:WhatLinksHere/List of awards for supporting actor you will now see six disambiguation pages, each listing articles with similar names. This is more in line with DAB standards. I see little value in the list article, but I do not watch much TV. Readers do seem interested in these things. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:16, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi
User:Gonnym please look in could you please look at Talk:Bigg Boss (Hindi TV series) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4C8:41:E6FF:5DF3:9984:D5EB:2A53 (talk) 14:44, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:The Avengers The Mobile Game cover art.png
Thanks for uploading File:The Avengers The Mobile Game cover art.png. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 17:53, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Category:Batwoman (TV series) episode redirects to lists
Now that we have Batwoman (season 1), can you please use AWB and retarget all episodes listed in this category? <b style="color: black;">Kailash29792</b> (talk)  17:10, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Done. --Gonnym (talk) 13:49, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Television network original programming category
Hi, why does put  inside itself? No content category should be self-categorised. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 18:14, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 September 15 § Template:Use shortened footnotes
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 September 15 § Template:Use shortened footnotes. Peaceray (talk) 05:17, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Help
Can you please add a infobox to my profile page I'll laterly edit my own And if you can please say me how to add infobox or template to any page Priyanshu Rajkumar Jaiswal (talk) 17:02, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

G6
Just as a note, if a template populating a category has changed, the category should be deleted under WP:G8 (specifically db-templatecat), not G6. Primefac (talk) 18:54, 19 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I wasn't sure which one to choose. The template didn't change, I just added now code that places the incorrect categories in a tracking category. They might have been like this empty for years. Gonnym (talk) 19:01, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you sure G8 is better? The language makes me think it doesn't really cover this. --Gonnym (talk) 19:49, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
 * If a template was (at any point in time) supposed to populate those categories, and they're no longer being populated, then I'd say that's a good use of G8. The length of time they haven't been populated is largely immaterial. Primefac (talk) 19:50, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

test cases oddities
Something makes no sense to me. At Module talk:Lang/testcases/ISO 639-1 name from tag, eleven tests fail but except for two, none of the others should. Module:Lang/sandbox no-longer uses Module:Language/data/wp languages or Module:Language/data/ISO 639-3. Module:Lang/data should, but does not yet override  and   (both are overridden in ~/wp_languages) so the mismatch in the testcases for those codes is to be expected.

The other failures are unexpected; more so because comparing live against sandbox s here, shows that all of these that fail at the testcases page do not fail here. Since they work independently, that suggests that there is something amiss with the testcases code.

– override exists in Module:Lang/data - FIXED – override exists in ~/wp_languages – override exist in ~/data - FIXED – override exist in ~/data - FIXED – override exists in ~/wp_languages Do you have an explanation?
 * l –
 * s –
 * l –
 * s –
 * l –
 * s –
 * l –
 * s –
 * l –
 * s –
 * l –
 * s –
 * l –
 * s –
 * l –
 * s –
 * l –
 * s –
 * l –
 * s –
 * l –
 * s –

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:05, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The way I set it up (and it might be incorrect, seeing as it doesn't take into account overrides), was to get the list from the relevant module. So in this case, from Module:Language/data/ISO 639-1. Then I compare the result of #invoke:Lang|name_from_tag with the the first language returned from the data entry in the list. "Church Slavic" is the first entry, which is why it returned that. I'll need to see how I can add the override logic there. --Gonnym (talk) 16:14, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Down to 8 now. The rest have disambiguation and I'm not sure how to handle that in the /testcases. --Gonnym (talk) 16:40, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Similar issue with the ISO 639-2, -3 codes? Lots of errors but the iana source (which is 'the' source) sometimes reorders language name aliases so tests fail.  For example   in Module talk:Lang/testcases/ISO 639-3-2 name from tag: ISO 639-3 has: "Ajiya", "Idon" but iana has: "Idon", "Ajiya".  In the data set 'coalesced' by Module:Language/name/data, iana has priority over ISO 639.
 * I think that the current goal is to abandon Module:Language/name/data which is why Module:Lang/sandbox doesn't use it. That being the case, shouldn't the primary data for the testcases be derived from Module:Language/data/iana languages?  We might retain the ISO 639 -2, -3, -5, deprecated testcases for reference.
 * I've been wondering recently about the use of  tag descriptions in the rendering of link labels, tool tips, category names; pretty sure that I wrote about that on my talk page.  Without anyone dissuades me, I'm going to disable that after adding appropriate overrides for existing uses to Module:Lang/data.  Did that already for   and.
 * Also, I notice that the tests sometimes fail because they take to long to render.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:46, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The testcases don't use Module:Language/name/data, but they do use every name present in the relevent tables. So for "idc" it checked both "Idon", "Ajiya" (as both are in Module:Language/data/iana languages). Should it not? Regarding the long tests, I don't really know what else to do. Part of my musing comment was based on the complex work that is needed to get a piece of static data, which in this case also causes the timeout (if I'm not mistaken, the timeout started after your recent change to the lang module. So it's very fragile to any "extra" processing). --Gonnym (talk) 18:26, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * These tests validate Module:lang/sandbox against a static reference list of language names taken from Module:Language/data/ISO 639-3. I think that that is the wrong list to be using.
 * Because you aren't fetching data from Module:Language/name/data (for the live module, is the relevant data) then you should be using Module:Language/data/iana languages because when Module:Language/name/data is 'coalesced', Module:Language/data/wp languages is first, followed by Module:Language/data/iana languages, and finally by Module:Language/data/ISO 639-3.  So, for , we end up with this:
 * The first pair of names came from iana, the second pair of names came from ISO 639-3. From this list of four names, Module:Lang will only take the first name.  Because the testcases code takes names from the ISO 639-3 module, wherever the ISO 639-3 name-order differs from the iana name-order, the test will fail.  Also, the test will fail because Module:lang and ~/sandbox strip the parenthetical disambiguators but the reference lists retain them.
 * If these are going to be the tests against which Module:lang is validated, the static reference lists must be correct. They are not while they derived from the ISO 639-3 module and retain disambiguation.  For the   tests, the reference lists will need to retain the disambiguators.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 20:01, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * But if I get the data from the iana file, how do I know what ISO it is? If you have fixes to the testcases feel free to change anything there as I'm not sure how to proceed here. --Gonnym (talk) 22:58, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Module:Lang could not care one whit about ISO parts. Is the code valid?  Should it be promoted from three-characters to two?  Humans might care simply for the purposes of organization (else we wouldn't sort the list) but Module:lang just does not care.  Maybe I'll poke around tomorrow.  I'm currently hacking an awb script to remove the no-longer-needed positional parameters from.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 23:35, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * If we don't split it by ISO that could work. Before you use the script, let me know please. I'm using the positional parameters to validate categories before G8 them. Also, I'd like to standardize the template names so was thinking of renaming it to "Non-English-language text category" to match the source one, but wasn't sure yet. --Gonnym (talk) 23:56, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * awb script ready to go when you are.
 * I tweaked Module:Lang/testcases/ISO 639-1 name from tag to remove disambiguators; all tests pass. In thinking about doing the same for Module:Lang/testcases/ISO 639-3-1 name from tag it occurs to me that there is no need to keep all of the assigned names since Module:lang only looks at the first one so it will simplify the undabbing to undab only the first name.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 09:58, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * If lang will never support finding the tags of the alternative names then I guess you are right. If in the future that changes, we can adjust the tests again. I'll make a final pass of the /documentor module and update to live so you can use the script. --Gonnym (talk) 10:04, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * /documentor and changes live. --Gonnym (talk) 10:44, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I tweaked Module:Lang/testcases/ISO 639-3-1 name from tag to remove disambiguators. Because it is necessary to look at each language code to exclude ISO 639-1 codes, I also used that opportunity to pare the list to those codes specified by the range so I removed the range restrictions from the call to  .  No errors testing Module:Lang/sandbox against the list.  When I tested Module:Lang against the list there are errors.  I expect that because Module:Language/data/wp languages overrides codes that Module:lang/data does not yet know about.  I can use that to get a definitive list of updates needed in ~/data.
 * Still an issue with timeout so I shortened the 639-3-1 from a–h to a–f. Famous last words, the change that you mentioned should not have made Module:Lang/sandbox run slower unless time spent creating a data module doesn't count.  The change spins through Module:Language/data/iana scripts, Module:Language/data/iana regions, and Module:Language/data/iana suppressed scripts to set the keys to lowercase.  It might be better to just modify local script and region indexes to their canonical form because they are generally rarely used.  I'll see if that makes a difference.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 12:13, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Astonishing. Doing as I just suggested speeds up everything to the point that a single testcase can do all of the three-character code testing without timing out (close at 9.7 seconds ... but gets it done).
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 14:27, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Wow, that's really is amazing. I thought that the ISO3s would always time out because of the amount of entries in the list, not because of the time it took. Learn something every day :) --Gonnym (talk) 14:42, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you sufficiently finished with G8ing that I can run the awb script?
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 16:52, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm done as I don't know which of those will be valid or not. It's also just a not a lot left so I can manually check the pages. --Gonnym (talk) 17:17, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll run it over the next few days.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:21, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Completely unrelated to your question, but something I was thinking about while writing the /testcases. I wonder if our current data structure is the best and most optimal one we have. Currently, we do a lot of changing of values based on overrides and reverse lookup is quite taxing. I was thinking that if we change our structure to a static one, we could save a lot of time and code. What I mean is something like this: make files -> static ISO-# list -> static complete list. The complete list would be in a format like this: . This way when we need to get the "correct" title for a category, it would be as easy as table[code].primary and using that name. We can also then have a reverse static table which is just in the format of [language] = "code". These static pages would need to be updated only whenever a change to the data is wanted. Probably hundreds of things I didn't think about wanted to share :) --Gonnym (talk) 16:22, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 14:27, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Wow, that's really is amazing. I thought that the ISO3s would always time out because of the amount of entries in the list, not because of the time it took. Learn something every day :) --Gonnym (talk) 14:42, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you sufficiently finished with G8ing that I can run the awb script?
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 16:52, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm done as I don't know which of those will be valid or not. It's also just a not a lot left so I can manually check the pages. --Gonnym (talk) 17:17, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll run it over the next few days.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:21, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Completely unrelated to your question, but something I was thinking about while writing the /testcases. I wonder if our current data structure is the best and most optimal one we have. Currently, we do a lot of changing of values based on overrides and reverse lookup is quite taxing. I was thinking that if we change our structure to a static one, we could save a lot of time and code. What I mean is something like this: make files -> static ISO-# list -> static complete list. The complete list would be in a format like this: . This way when we need to get the "correct" title for a category, it would be as easy as table[code].primary and using that name. We can also then have a reverse static table which is just in the format of [language] = "code". These static pages would need to be updated only whenever a change to the data is wanted. Probably hundreds of things I didn't think about wanted to share :) --Gonnym (talk) 16:22, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Arrowverse task force‎
As someone who has frequently edited the Arrowverse article in the past, you may be interested in participating in the newly created Arrowverse task force‎. -- / Alex /<sub style="color:#008">21  03:43, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

fix needed for Template:Non-English-language text category?
Have a look at. In the first line, the language name is redlinked and disambiguated. Is that the correct thing to do?

Would it be better were the template to use the disambiguated language name there?

Also, shouldn't the "This category should only be added ..." proscription be the last line of text rendered by the template?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:28, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Not sure I understood the first question. the language name is redlinked and disambiguated and Would it be better were the template to use the disambiguated language name there? seem to be the same, or did you mean non-disambiguated name? So in that case, your suggestion is to do an exists check on the title, if it doesn't, then de-dab and use that name?
 * Regarding the order of text, I used the exact one from the original template, but looking at the text, the order seems ok-ish. Line #1 gives the scope, line #2 says what template controls what pages are added and line #3 gives an example of how that template is used. But if you feel a better order (or text) is available, go for it (just keep the strings in the string.format style). --Gonnym (talk) 13:35, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I was trying to ask if the first sentence should at read like this (no disambiguation in the wikilink):
 * This category contains articles with text.
 * That rendering uses  – no   check required.  And, you already use   for the language tag in the  template expansion.
 * No matter how I rearrange the sentences in that template, I'm never really happy with it. I'll think on it some more; perhaps a complete rewrite is required.   If that is the case, I'm doubtful that such an effort is really worth the time...
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 15:11, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, I now I understand. So you want to remove the manual link that has the word "-language" with the link provided by the lang template?
 * This category contains articles with text
 * This category contains articles with text
 * This category contains articles with text
 * This category contains articles with text
 * This category contains articles with text
 * Are the above examples all ok (I think it covers all variations)?
 * Regarding the re-write, if you come up with a better style, I don't have a problem implementing it. It should* be pretty straight forward. --Gonnym (talk) 15:19, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Sort of. Except for the collective codes, should include '-language' which, for consistency should probably be linked because 'languages' from the collective codes names will be linked:
 * ...with text
 * ...with text
 * ...with text
 * ...with text
 * but
 * ...with text
 * Make sense?
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 15:35, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, now it's clear. I'll see what I can do. --Gonnym (talk) 15:37, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, the /sandbox seems to be working with the above examples. --Gonnym (talk) 16:00, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, works for me.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 16:18, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * That does mean though that you should probably implement my list of language link dab fixes as these categories shouldn't have those links that lead to them. --Gonnym (talk) 16:02, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you mean by that. Explain?
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 16:18, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Since the links are now generated by the module itself, we should implement the fixes I posted at Module talk:ISO 639 name. See Category:Articles containing Tonga (Zambia)-language text as an example, where the live version gives the correct link, while the /sandbox version sends to the dab page (the iso link at the bottom also used the module link). --Gonnym (talk) 16:23, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that should be done. I am inclined to defer that task until after the pending Module:Lang update.  Of all of those codes at your dab fix page, only two have  templates:  and .  Both of those already make links to the correct article:
 * Ignoring, I suspect that  templates are the most likely source of wikilinks to dab pages.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:42, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, so what do we prefer until then, a few red links or dab links from Non-English-language text category? --Gonnym (talk) 17:53, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * For me, a link that gets me most of the way to my destination is to be preferred over a link that goes nowhere. You?
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 19:46, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Done. --Gonnym (talk) 00:06, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:42, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, so what do we prefer until then, a few red links or dab links from Non-English-language text category? --Gonnym (talk) 17:53, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * For me, a link that gets me most of the way to my destination is to be preferred over a link that goes nowhere. You?
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 19:46, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Done. --Gonnym (talk) 00:06, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

An issue on the Category:Articles containing simplified Chinese-language text
Hello Gonnym, how are you? I found an issue on most of the Chinese-related articles that has a Category:Articles containing simplified Chinese-language text below. But it should be a hidden category. I don't know what has been changed, and I saw you just edited the Template:Non-English-language text category and Module:Lang/documentor tool. Could you please help me fix it? Thank you very much.-- Xiliuheshui · <small style="color:red">chat  15:06, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Xiliuheshui, thanks for letting me know. I made an edit to the module which should fix it. Let me know if you see anything else. --Gonnym (talk) 15:25, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much 🌷🌷🌷-- Xiliuheshui · <small style="color:red">chat  20:27, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

TfDs? RfDs?
I noticed this at :
 * displays as

That is wrong. redirects to. I did that because we should not usurp for proto language text. The redirect also covered the transition from to. Because no longer used, can go away.

The above also applies to, , and.

There are two others:
 * should not redirect to :
 * they are not the same thing.
 * should not redirect to :
 * they are not the same thing.
 * they are not the same thing.

and:
 * has been improperly appropriated for the Irish version of English (Hiberno-English) and we already have.
 * → (redirects to Hiberno-English)
 * → (redirects to Hiberno-English)

None of these templates are used in article space.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:41, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree that they should be deleted. I have a follow up question to this though, is there any reason most of the Lang-x can't be merged into Lang2 template? If there isn't, the above can be part of that nomination. --Gonnym (talk) 14:51, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm confused.  is now a redirect to  as a result of .  Are you suggesting that  should be usurped for some other purpose?  What purpose?
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 15:02, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes regarding using that name for a different purpose. The intention is for what I wrote above is there any reason most of the Lang-x can't be merged into Lang2 template?, having one lang-xx template instead of hundreds. There is no reason why fr can work with a parameter, but Lang-fr needs a specific language template. Am I missing something? --Gonnym (talk) 15:06, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The thing about the templates is that they preset various parameters (script, rtl, etc) so that editors don't have to and each template calls one of two functions in Module:Lang (  or  ).  We can perhaps usurp  to be usable for the cases where a handful of uses for a particular language code don't warrant the creation of a new  template.  For example, there is no  but an editor wanting that functionality for a few instances in a particular article might write:
 * from which might produce:
 * This would also probably require us to make Template:Lang-x/doc a real template at (we should do that anyway...).
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 15:45, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree that the presets are useful, which is why I didn't say to merge them into Lang. Since we already have a list of presets in each template, we can move these into a table and accessed by the language key. This would still preserve the presets but also allowing us to reduce ~800 templates into 1 template and 1 new data module. --Gonnym (talk) 15:49, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * You know, I did not get the minder-reader gene. Saying completely what you mean to say the first time that you say it would be helpful.
 * Yeah, we could do that.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 16:22, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Haha. I try and ask my questions as clear as I can, without hiding anything, but I guess it fails sometimes. However, if that minder-reader gene could come in handy :) --Gonnym (talk) 16:24, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we could do that.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 16:22, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Haha. I try and ask my questions as clear as I can, without hiding anything, but I guess it fails sometimes. However, if that minder-reader gene could come in handy :) --Gonnym (talk) 16:24, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

testcases
does the Module:Lang/testcases/ISO 639-3-1 name from tag 3-2 and 3-3 now include -2 and -5 codes? If so I'll move the names and delete the commented out modules. --Gonnym (talk) 19:00, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * All of ISO 639-1 and -2T are in the iana list; none of the ISO 639-2B are in iana; all of ISO 639-3 except  (a deprecated code though still listed in 639-3) are in iana; all of ISO 639-5 except   (promotes to  ) are in iana; none of the deprecated ISO 639 codes are in iana.  I do not think that there is much value to keeping the ISO 639-2B, ISO 639-2B, and ISO 639 (dep) tests.  Also, I have disabled the   description-as-language-name so that test can be withdrawn.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 23:08, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I think that there is a problem with the  testcases.  For example, Module_talk:Lang/testcases/ISO_639-1_category_from_tag runs but if you look in the parser profile data:
 * Lua memory usage: 48.96 MB/50 MB
 * I took those same s into Test page and previewed:
 * Lua memory usage: 13.76 MB/50 MB (sandbox)
 * Lua memory usage: 14.32 MB/50 MB (live)
 * Module_talk:Lang/testcases/ISO_639-2_category_from_tag has more tests (486 vs 185) and uses less memory:
 * Lua memory usage: 27.32 MB/50 MB
 * I got similar results from the independent live and sandbox tests with the 486 -2 s: 13.76 and 14.43 MB
 * this test can go away
 * All of Module_talk:Lang/testcases/ISO_639-3-1_category_from_tag, -2, -3 run out of memory
 * Lua memory usage: 50 MB/50 MB
 * Module_talk:Lang/testcases/ISO_639-5_category_from_tag has fewer tests (115 vs 486) but uses almost the same amount of memory as the -2 test:
 * Lua memory usage: 25.59 MB/50 MB
 * this test can go away
 * Module talk:Lang/testcases/ISO 639 deprecated category from tag:
 * Lua memory usage: 31.35 MB/50 MB
 * this test can go away
 * Module talk:Lang/testcases/ISO 639 deprecated category from tag:
 * didn't test
 * this test can go away
 * So these data suggest that there is something wrong with the testcases?
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 12:19, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look. They all originally ran when I did them, but the bigger ones were always fragile. I'll see what changed. --Gonnym (talk) 12:22, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * As a quick answer, this test is the only one comparing the same exact code live and sandbox, and not to a specific table. So maybe that is why, as other than that, it just does a simple code extraction so the table can be made. --Gonnym (talk) 12:25, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe the get_ietf_parts (source, args_script, args_region, args_variant) function * the amount of codes is just too much for it? --Gonnym (talk) 12:28, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm skeptical.   is also used by  .  Looking at memory usage for Module_talk:Lang/testcases/ISO_639-3-1_name_from_tag: 2492 tests
 * Lua memory usage: 46.92 MB/50 MB
 * and doing the independent live and sandbox tests of those same s:
 * Lua memory usage: 13.76 MB/50 MB (sandbox); recognize that number?
 * Lua memory usage: 14.5 MB/50 MB (live)
 * I wondered what would happen if I changed to a static table of category names, bypassing ~/documentor tool entirely like this:
 * And:
 * Lua memory usage: 14.22 MB/50 MB (sandbox)
 * Lua memory usage: 14.55 MB/50 MB (live)
 * So, it would seem that the memory problem isn't caused by Module:lang, Module:lang/sandbox, or Module:UnitTests.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 13:42, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think your conclusion is correct. What you did is removed all the processing time and complexity by just writing two strings. Of course that would work better. The previous one retrieved a list, removed the language and left only the codes, sorted it, then compared the sandbox code to the live code (again, two invokes, compared to one invoke in the other testcases), which requires much more time and actual processing to work. The above example, is not really flexible, as you'll have to make sure the ISO list is always in sync with whatever dataset you are using (and these things always fall out of sync) and in case you change something in the category structure, you'll have to make sure it is also updated here. But I will say this (which I said a few times on this page before), the way we are using the /data isn't the optimal way as the data is static, but we are generating it dynamically for no reason. --Gonnym (talk) 13:52, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 13:42, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think your conclusion is correct. What you did is removed all the processing time and complexity by just writing two strings. Of course that would work better. The previous one retrieved a list, removed the language and left only the codes, sorted it, then compared the sandbox code to the live code (again, two invokes, compared to one invoke in the other testcases), which requires much more time and actual processing to work. The above example, is not really flexible, as you'll have to make sure the ISO list is always in sync with whatever dataset you are using (and these things always fall out of sync) and in case you change something in the category structure, you'll have to make sure it is also updated here. But I will say this (which I said a few times on this page before), the way we are using the /data isn't the optimal way as the data is static, but we are generating it dynamically for no reason. --Gonnym (talk) 13:52, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Some of what you say is no-doubt true. I continue to believe that there is something amiss in the Module:Lang/documentor tool version. This hack creates a list of codes and expected results from Module:Lang so that Module:UnitTests can test Module:Lang/sandbox. I extended the  out to   without overrunning memory (which happened at  ). The current version of Module:Lang/testcases/ISO_639-3-1_category_from_tag overruns memory even when constrained to. Vaguely related, because Module:Lang won't be using data from the ISO 639 tables, perhaps the testcases names should be changed to something along the lines of:
 * Module:Lang/testcases/category_from_tag_(2-character)
 * Module:Lang/testcases/category_from_tag_(3-character)

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:10, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I removed one invoke and it runs (without any actual valid result of course). I removed the code not needed anymore from the /documentor tool but there is not a lot more optimization that can happen there as all it does it gets the data ready to call the module. As a test what we can do is create a static table of the iso codes, pass it to it and just call the lang module and see if it runs or not. Regarding the names, I agree they need to be changed. I was thinking maybe /iana but yours seems to be better. Feel free to move them. --Gonnym (talk) 17:06, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, so the test passed. But I'm still not sure why it failed before. --Gonnym (talk) 17:17, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't have an answer. So, I propose to replace the   tests with clones of the above test so that there is something to test against.  I will likely do something similar for the   testcases (the last thing I'm working on before updating Module:Lang) – I can test the ISO 639-1 codes but the -3 testcases overrun memory because I-don't-know-why.  After the update we can revisit the question of how to consolidate these tests?
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 13:56, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The latest change you did causes it to timeout simply because you asked for the value in the for loop. I have no freaking idea why the lua here is so fragile that it can't handle that. But to your question, yes, let's make the code work, even if ugly, and try and clean it up after it goes live. Semi-related to this, in Module:Lang/data you have override tables which are in the format of: k = {}. My question is, can an override even be more than one? If it can't, wouldn't a: k = "" (string) be more efficient? --Gonnym (talk) 14:10, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I did it as tables so that whatever read the value from any table didn't have to first ask if value is a table or a string. Right now, the iana data modules are loaded as part of Module:Language/name/data; reprocessing those same modules again to make the value strings seemed a waste.  When I moved loading of the data modules into Module:Lang/data/sandbox for this upcoming update, it did occur to me to change the override table and to also change the loaded forms of Module:Language/data/iana languages, Module:Language/data/iana regions, and Module:Language/data/iana scripts because from them we take only the first name; Module:Language/data/iana variants and Module:Language/data/iana suppressed scripts are oddballs; I violated my own rule with Module:Lang/ISO 639 synonyms which uses string values ...
 * Now that all of these are handled inside ~/data/sandbox, switching all except ~/iana variants and ~/iana suppressed scripts is something to think about.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 14:49, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Testcases have stopped working for  and  .  Because whatever creates the reference lists is not aware of   and   in Module:Language/data/iana languages?
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 15:02, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Fixed. They indeed needed the .active part. --Gonnym (talk) 15:19, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Fixed. They indeed needed the .active part. --Gonnym (talk) 15:19, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Duplicate override lists
Now looking more closely, it seems we have duplicate override tables at Module:Lang/data and Module:Language/data/ISO 639 override. Can we merge this, so we don't need to maintain two lists like this and for the ISO to call the general one just for the data it needs (or the other way around)? --Gonnym (talk) 16:51, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I think that I agree. We should think about how to accomplish this after the pending Module:Lang update.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:44, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. We already have a ton of changes in that one alone. --Gonnym (talk) 17:54, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Now that the update is almost over (just the deprecated tags left), can we start thinking of how to handle this? From Module:Lang/data, the relevant tables are the "override" and "article_name" tables. --Gonnym (talk) 14:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * pinging you just in case. --Gonnym (talk) 14:02, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The oh-so-obvious problem is that Module:ISO 639 name wants the various overrides to be segregated into ISO 639 parts:,  ,  ,  ,  ,  .  Module:Lang wants the various overrides to be lumped together.  So we could create a common override module that is written with segregated tables.  Module:ISO 639 name could use those tables as-is.  A separate function   could lump the individual ISO 639-part override tables into a single   table for Module:Lang to use.  Right now, the two   tables are identical so could easily be moved into the shared override module.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 15:17, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * But does Module:Language/data/ISO 639 override really need it segregated? Other than the /testcases, is there any specific place we ask for the deprecation codes of a sub-group? And if so, why? --Gonnym (talk) 15:21, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Module:ISO 639 name has functions that work only with the specified part; for example:  which will only work with the ISO 639-1 name lists:
 * looks first in the override data for the specified ISO 639 part; then in the main data for the specified part; then in the deprecated data for the specified part.
 * Not mentioned above are the IETF language tags ( and the like) and the private-use tags (  etc) that Module:Lang supports but that Module:ISO 639 name does not.  The table 'made' with   could be initialized with these tag/language-name pairs.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 15:50, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah ok. Then your initial idea might be the best one then. Keep them separated and have function for Module:Lang to get them as a combined list. Keeping it modular might be better anyways for future needs. --Gonnym (talk) 15:53, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * another issue to the override table while we are at it, links to, but looking at the article, it has a hatnote which leads to Constructed language which seems is the actual article about the topic, as is the category Category:Constructed languages. It is also the page linked at List of ISO 639-2 codes from the art row. --Gonnym (talk) 23:31, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yep, oversight on my part; took the special case for  out of   because it wasn't special enough.  Now added to the override data.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 11:01, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * So Category:Articles with text from the Artificial languages collective is now Category:Articles containing constructed-language text? Or should it be "languages collective" also? --Gonnym (talk) 11:04, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * can go away. I have restored  because that was the historical name.  If ever the collective CfD closes, we might then reconsider how this category is named.  At the moment, I see no reason to change its name.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 11:18, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, great I've G8 it. --Gonnym (talk) 11:50, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 11:01, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * So Category:Articles with text from the Artificial languages collective is now Category:Articles containing constructed-language text? Or should it be "languages collective" also? --Gonnym (talk) 11:04, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * can go away. I have restored  because that was the historical name.  If ever the collective CfD closes, we might then reconsider how this category is named.  At the moment, I see no reason to change its name.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 11:18, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, great I've G8 it. --Gonnym (talk) 11:50, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Placed all override codes at Module:Language/data/ISO 639 override/sandbox. I'm not sure how to split the "todo" list as I'm not sure what belongs where there. --Gonnym (talk) 13:25, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I have hacked at the module and also hacked some test code in my sandbox to compare  against the live Module:Lang/data   table.  The   table had to be split because we override inverted names for Module:ISO 639 name that we don't need to override for Module:Lang (the iana data are already inverted from the ISO 639-2 source).  So far, the only testing I've done is to loop through all of the codes in   and see that they exist in   and vice versa.  That part is working (apparently) and they both have the same number of codes (167).  I'll test language names later in the afternoon.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 19:44, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Can you explain what you mean by the inverted difference? Another question, why is there a cosmetic split between the ISO 639 tags and the Lang/data tags? Is it just for now while testing or is there a reason to keep the distinction? (I understand why keeping the /wp ones apart, at least for now, as those seem to be a bit hit and miss, but eventually that distinction should also go). --Gonnym (talk) 19:54, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Module:Language/data/ISO 639-2 has:
 * but Module:Language/data/iana_languages has:
 * The former is inverted. We can probably tweak Module:ISO 639 name so that it automatically normalizes inverted names.
 * The cosmic split was merely to keep original sources separate so that I didn't get too lost. I've just tested language names in the   against the live Module:Lang/data  .  They all agree so I'll clean up the module some and hook it into Module:Lang/sandbox.  I think that it'll want a new name; something to acknowledge its shared nature...  Ideas?  I'm going to rename   to   because that name will become free to use.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 21:56, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The cosmic split was merely to keep original sources separate so that I didn't get too lost. makes sense. We can probably tweak Module:ISO 639 name so that it automatically normalizes inverted names I suppose we should have a standard presentation, but since both produce the same visual result, I don't really understand where the difference is but I trust you do know. Regarding the name, I'll have to think about it. No good ideas currently. --Gonnym (talk) 22:08, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I have enabled the shared override module in Module:Lang/sandbox. All of the testcases work.  Not so successful with Module:ISO 639 name/sandbox.  These three tests fail to run (not enough memory error):
 * Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-3-1 name_to_code (A–H)
 * Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-3-2 name_to_code (I–N)
 * Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-3-3 name_to_code (O–Z)
 * It isn't clear that the ISO 639-1, -2, and -5 versions to those tests are using the shared override data. When I suspended use of the shared override data in Module:ISO 639 name/sandbox.  The same three tests still fail in the same way so the problem isn't the shared data.  I have left the sandbox using its old override data.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 00:01, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I have no idea how to solve this out of memory bug. I tried duplicating the code Module:Sandbox/Gonnym/sometest here and it still did not work. I'll have to scrap the setup and just duplicate the code in every test case which is very annoying. --Gonnym (talk) 10:50, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I have tweaked Module:ISO 639 name so that it handles inverted language names without the need for overrides. Because of that, in Module:Language/data/ISO 639 override/sandbox I have removed   and  .  The inverted overrides in Module:Language/data/ISO 639 override are disabled.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 14:30, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I've updated the /documentor code so it won't error out on the ISO tests. Here are the following number of fails we have:
 * Module talk:Lang/testcases/ISO 639-3-3 name from tag - 1 fail ← reference list should strip parenthetical disambiguators from names because ISO 639 name strips parenthetical disambiguators before rendering
 * Module talk:Lang/testcases/ISO 639 deprecated and override name from tag - 1 fail ← strip parenthetical
 * Module talk:Lang/testcases/ISO 639 deprecated and override tag from name - 23 fails ← tags are deprecated but names are not; Lang returns active tag for name
 * Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-1 code to name - 25 fails ← reference list not including override data from Module:Language/data/ISO 639 override/sandbox?
 * Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-2 code to name - 31 fails ← same
 * Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-3-1 code to name - 33 fails ← same
 * Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-3-2 code to name - 24 fails ← same
 * Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-3-3 code to name - 31 fails ← same; now 30; fixed
 * Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-5 code to name - 1 fail ← same
 * Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-2 name to code - 200 fails ← test invoke does not specify ISO 639-2 or -2B so Module:ISO 639 name returns first code found; these are the synonymous codes
 * Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-3-1 name to code - 69 fails ← test invoke does not specify ISO 639-3; I'm perplexed about the not-found errors; names are in the data so something to do with diacritics?
 * Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-3-2 name to code - 58 fails ← same
 * Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-3-3 name to code - 66 fails ← same
 * Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-5 name to code - 1 fail ← test invoke does not specify ISO 639-5
 * Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639 deprecated name to code - 59 fails ← tags are deprecated but names are not; ISO 639 name returns active tag for name; test invoke does not specify ISO 639 part
 * Could you let me know what from these is because of the change to the shared override and what might be bugs in my code? --Gonnym (talk) 15:53, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Comments added to your list. Do they make sense?
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:09, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * not-found-errors fixed in Module:ISO 639 name/sandbox;  instead of.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:23, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * code_to_name is probably a non-issue as the test compares the sandbox vs the live version. --Gonnym (talk) 18:14, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Not sure how to fix the name_to_code series. I've verified that the override_table used is the specific iso number version. Any other ideas? --Gonnym (talk) 18:30, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * From the top of Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-2 name to code, compare:
 * The second form is what I meant by test invoke does not specify ISO 639-2 or -2B. Alles klar?
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 18:39, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah! I didn't even know that the syntax needed it, thanks! I had to add to Module:ISO 639 name a part parameter as the testcases has the part at the first position. I don't think it should break anything, but double check me there.
 * Updated stats:
 * Module talk:Lang/testcases/ISO 639 deprecated and override tag from name - 23 fails ← tags are deprecated but names are not; Lang returns active tag for name.
 * Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-2 name to code - 1 fail
 * Module talk:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639 deprecated name to code - 55 fails ← tags are deprecated but names are not; ISO 639 name returns active tag for name; test invoke does not specify ISO 639 part
 * Advice on how to fix these? --Gonnym (talk) 19:00, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Can't this:
 * be rewritten as:
 * or as:
 * No need for part?
 * Fixed the single fail by updating Module:Language/data/ISO 639 name to code/sandbox.
 * The testcases are expecting Module:Lang/sandbox and Module:ISO 639 name/sandbox to return deprecated codes even when both modules have access to the active codes. They will not.  Both always return the active code when one exists.  We could probably tweak both to force them to return deprecated codes instead of active codes (not sure if there is any benefit to that).  We can adjust the testcases so that when they assemble the reference list, they look for both active and deprecated codes and expect the active or skip the language name test when the language name has both active and deprecated codes.  I guess that I would opt for the test cases expecting the active code.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 19:46, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Changed part to 2 and it worked. So no need for my edit in the /sandbox. So only issue left is handling the /testcases for deprecated codes and hopefully all real-issues handled. --Gonnym (talk) 19:53, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Have any idea what changed in the "name to code" family? Module:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-1 name to code etc, are erroring out. --Gonnym (talk) 08:10, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Fixed. It was an error print which I assume was for testing. --Gonnym (talk) 10:04, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * or as:
 * No need for part?
 * Fixed the single fail by updating Module:Language/data/ISO 639 name to code/sandbox.
 * The testcases are expecting Module:Lang/sandbox and Module:ISO 639 name/sandbox to return deprecated codes even when both modules have access to the active codes. They will not.  Both always return the active code when one exists.  We could probably tweak both to force them to return deprecated codes instead of active codes (not sure if there is any benefit to that).  We can adjust the testcases so that when they assemble the reference list, they look for both active and deprecated codes and expect the active or skip the language name test when the language name has both active and deprecated codes.  I guess that I would opt for the test cases expecting the active code.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 19:46, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Changed part to 2 and it worked. So no need for my edit in the /sandbox. So only issue left is handling the /testcases for deprecated codes and hopefully all real-issues handled. --Gonnym (talk) 19:53, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Have any idea what changed in the "name to code" family? Module:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-1 name to code etc, are erroring out. --Gonnym (talk) 08:10, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Fixed. It was an error print which I assume was for testing. --Gonnym (talk) 10:04, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Changed part to 2 and it worked. So no need for my edit in the /sandbox. So only issue left is handling the /testcases for deprecated codes and hopefully all real-issues handled. --Gonnym (talk) 19:53, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Have any idea what changed in the "name to code" family? Module:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-1 name to code etc, are erroring out. --Gonnym (talk) 08:10, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Fixed. It was an error print which I assume was for testing. --Gonnym (talk) 10:04, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Additional issues
Splitting this so the previous one can stay for the /testcases. Additional issues I noticed. --Gonnym (talk) 20:02, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) Why is "mo" in the general "override" table and not in the -# one?
 * Shouldn't this result in the same link?
 * 1) Can we add the fixes from Module talk:ISO 639 name to the "article_name" table?
 * 2) Not related to the override, but something I noticed. Why does Lang use "x from y" (name from tag) while ISO 639 uses "x to y" (code to name)? Mw lang also uses "x from y".
 * 1) Can we add the fixes from Module talk:ISO 639 name to the "article_name" table?
 * 2) Not related to the override, but something I noticed. Why does Lang use "x from y" (name from tag) while ISO 639 uses "x to y" (code to name)? Mw lang also uses "x from y".
 * fixed.
 * Some can be, others, it seems to me, belong in the normal override tables.
 * Likely it was a different phase of the moon. I would not object to normalizing the Module:ISO 639 name functions to have the same form as Module:Lang.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 21:36, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It occurs to me that  and the like should lose the   prefix because that's obvious whether the function is called from an   or from the  template in fn.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 22:12, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * New function names:
 * Module:ISO 639 name/sandbox only.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 23:01, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Agree with the removal of the prefix. Looks much better. So just the name fixes left from these 3. --Gonnym (talk) 07:31, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * What 3? I count nine function name changes.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 10:06, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * My 3 numbered issues at the beginning of the thread :) --Gonnym (talk) 10:10, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but there is another. I noticed yesterday that   Module_talk:ISO_639_name/testcases has a new test fail.  This because, in the live version of the modules,   'English, Old (ca.450-1100)' is overridden to 'Old English'.  Not so in the sandbox version.  Module:Language/data/ISO_639_name_to_code/make does not create entries for de-dabbed language names.  I'll fix that.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 10:50, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * and both produce correct results:  and . Are we going to support names with and without dabs? --Gonnym (talk) 11:57, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Module:Lang does:
 * Oughtn't Module:ISO 639 name do likewise? And, more salt on the wound, normalized forms:
 * And, more bewildering, ISO 639-2 omits the space character after 'ca.' that ISO 639-3 includes:
 * English, Old (ca.450-1100); -2
 * Old English (ca. 450-1100); -3
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 12:57, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah, I didn't know lang does that. I should probably setup testcases for the dab to test it for both land and iso 639. Have any idea how we can get that list without manually going over the list to check each entry? --Gonnym (talk) 13:20, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Module:Lang doesn't normalize inverted names because IANA normalizes them for us. I will have to noodle out something akin to how Module:Lang handles dedabbed names.  There is, for example, ISO 639-2   (Ainu) and ISO 639-3   (Ainu (Japan)) and ISO 639-3   (Ainu (China)).  The list for these should look something like:
 * but simple dedabbing would make:
 * which would be nonsense. Normalizing will just complicate matters...
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 15:15, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 10:50, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * and both produce correct results:  and . Are we going to support names with and without dabs? --Gonnym (talk) 11:57, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Module:Lang does:
 * Oughtn't Module:ISO 639 name do likewise? And, more salt on the wound, normalized forms:
 * And, more bewildering, ISO 639-2 omits the space character after 'ca.' that ISO 639-3 includes:
 * English, Old (ca.450-1100); -2
 * Old English (ca. 450-1100); -3
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 12:57, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah, I didn't know lang does that. I should probably setup testcases for the dab to test it for both land and iso 639. Have any idea how we can get that list without manually going over the list to check each entry? --Gonnym (talk) 13:20, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Module:Lang doesn't normalize inverted names because IANA normalizes them for us. I will have to noodle out something akin to how Module:Lang handles dedabbed names.  There is, for example, ISO 639-2   (Ainu) and ISO 639-3   (Ainu (Japan)) and ISO 639-3   (Ainu (China)).  The list for these should look something like:
 * but simple dedabbing would make:
 * which would be nonsense. Normalizing will just complicate matters...
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 15:15, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 12:57, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah, I didn't know lang does that. I should probably setup testcases for the dab to test it for both land and iso 639. Have any idea how we can get that list without manually going over the list to check each entry? --Gonnym (talk) 13:20, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Module:Lang doesn't normalize inverted names because IANA normalizes them for us. I will have to noodle out something akin to how Module:Lang handles dedabbed names.  There is, for example, ISO 639-2   (Ainu) and ISO 639-3   (Ainu (Japan)) and ISO 639-3   (Ainu (China)).  The list for these should look something like:
 * but simple dedabbing would make:
 * which would be nonsense. Normalizing will just complicate matters...
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 15:15, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * which would be nonsense. Normalizing will just complicate matters...
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 15:15, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

, is there anything we are waiting to sync the changes? Something you need me to do or test? --Gonnym (talk) 11:41, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah. We are waiting for me to get back to writing a version of Module:Language/data/ISO 639 name to code/make that actually works.  I got interrupted by the cs1|2 update and its attendant cleanup and so haven't got back to what I was doing before.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 11:50, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, ok. I'll look into it also and see if maybe I can help. --Gonnym (talk) 11:55, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Countdown (MuchMusic)
This needs to be moved – Do you think it should be moved to Countdown (Canadian TV program) or Countdown (TV programming block)? It's not clear to me from the article or Countdown (disambiguation). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:44, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a TV program in the style of MTV. --Gonnym (talk) 09:10, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅ – moved to Countdown (Canadian TV program). I agree after rereading it that this does not qualify as a "TV programming block" at all. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:34, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Navbox cats...
Feel free to propose improved names for the categories inside Category:Reality television series navigational boxes, I'd love to see them standardized.Naraht (talk) 17:24, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * When you create a category, just create it matching the name of the franchise article, including its disambiguation. --Gonnym (talk) 17:32, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Blood Memory by Martha Graham ?
Hello, Salaam Alaykum, Namaste,

What is wrong in stating that Blood Memory is the title of the autobiography of Martha Graham ? > Undid revision 986392960 - do not retarget redirects without fixing the links. This redirect is part of a set --AbouMPSI (talk) 16:01, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * There is nothing wrong with changing a redirect to disambiguation page if there are indeed other targets with that name, but the way to do it is not to change the redirect and call it a day. You should move the current title to a new one, in this case, Blood Memory (Supergirl), then fix all incoming links to that target to the new target. Only then change the disambiguation page. Since you didn't do that, and I had no time to do it, I reverted the change so incoming links won't be lost. --Gonnym (talk) 16:33, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanation. --AbouMPSI (talk) 13:08, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It really requires time. I had to wait for the next day to resume the work. --AbouMPSI (talk) 13:14, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Rolling Stones redirect move contested
Hello User:Gonnym. I think a current entry at WP:RMTR might be a complaint about a move of the redirect that you did recently. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 19:55, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

The Months of African Cinema Contest Continues in November!
You can opt-out of this annual reminder from The Afrocine Project by removing your username from this list

MCU file names update
Hey Gonnym. So as I'm sure you've seen, I've gone through and moved some of the files you had in your sandbox area. I wanted to talk through what remains. Many of these are VFX comparison shots, so I'm wondering if they should have another name beyond simply "[Content] in [film]". That'll cover much of the first set of files and some of those character ones. Also, for fully CGI characters (Thanos, Dormammu, and Korg) we've been using the naming format they are currently at, so I don't think those should change. I can see an argument for the Thanos one switching to include Brolin, but not Dormammu or Korg. Thanks. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:53, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Regarding the VFX, I agree. I was also thinking about that and I think I commented that somewhere in the /sandbox. Regarding Dormammu/Korg, sure, np. If some names are ok, just strike them out so I can see. Also, feel free to comment on that page so it'll be easier to follow. --Gonnym (talk) 23:37, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

The Doraemon series articles
So, Doraemon (1973 TV series) and Doraemon (1979 TV series) are both using Infobox television season, but they shouldn't be, right? (More WP:ANIME silliness, it seems! Doraemon (2005 TV series), at least, looks to be using the correct Infobox television.)

Is there a script or something that can do a "fast replace" of Infobox television season with Infobox television? Thanks. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 06:10, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The anime articles might either be incorrectly disambiguated or use an incorrect article, so it takes a bit more work to validate that, but generally yes. Series articles should use the series infobox, season ones should use the season infobox. Category:Television articles using incorrect infobox is a category which gets populated automatically when it detects certain issues. I used User:Gonnym/sandbox/subst season to convert series infoboxes to season (juse replace the template name with that and it does the work). A season-to-series one would need to be created. --Gonnym (talk) 17:56, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, I will try to remember to fix this "manually" soon, but I'm at least a week from my work load winding down to manageable levels... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:24, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

ScreenPlay
Episode list is not suitable for use in this list because:
 * 1) there are more plays than episodes
 * 2) there is no consistent numbering of either, and Episode list requires numbering
 * 3) the list is very likely to be incomplete at present
 * 4) Episode list does not generate anchors using titles

Jim Craigie (talk) 13:55, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Comments:
 * How are there more plays than episodes? And even if there were, split episode usages are already present in numerous pages, so that isn't an issue.
 * several episodes contain more than one play


 * The numbering should be based on broadcast order, unless otherwise noted (and for a very good reason). The list should under no circumtstance be a random one or based on editor preference. If the current numbering doesn't match, then it should be fixed.
 * so adding missing episodes changes anchors created by episode table thus breaking links to them


 * The list being incomplete does not matter. Again, if the numbering does not match, then correct the numbering.
 * The template does not generate anchors using titles, so?
 * Only use of titles gives anchors that remain constant as episodes are added


 * I don't see how the template is even an issue. On the other hand, the template now made this page consistent with thousands of television pages, fixed style issues and allows for easier maintenance. --Gonnym (talk) 14:07, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, just to let you know, your table was created by you 2 days ago, meaning that I could have easily reverted back to the status-quo version. Unlike you, I try not to WP:OWN pages. --Gonnym (talk) 14:21, 16 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Hmm, seems to me that you are trying to own use of a template which is not suitable for drama anthologies, where overall sorting by writer and director is highly useful.


 * Any numbering you assign is likely to be wrong, and in any case is a Wikipedia artifact that shouldn’t be visible to readers. Therefore only anchors using titles are useful.


 * Jim Craigie (talk) 14:39, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Ed subpages

 * Not sure where to post this, but this seemed like the correct place. There are many sub-pages of Wiki Ed, but that page is a soft redirect and the actual page is at Education program. Those sub-pages should move so they all are all much easily searchable, especially with tools like the above sub-page tool. Also when navigating between pages, not being sent to the redirect or have the title change is an added bonus.--Gonnym (talk) 11:09, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , I tried moving some pages individually, because swapping isn't a fine option there. If we, for the time sake do this, a number of 100 sub-pages can be moved with it (only if we move the main page as well, which we don't have to). I guess these pages should be moved individually whenever you have time. These are about 4000 subpages, and "destination targets" don't exist. Can be moved easily, but I don't know any tool with which we can move multiple pages. Hope might be having any idea since they are an admin, and they are mostly active at RMT. ─ The Aafī (talk) 05:27, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Felicity Smoak Arrowverse.jpg
Thanks for uploading File:Felicity Smoak Arrowverse.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. NeoBatfreak (talk) 23:39, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Category:Articles containing Old English (ca. 450-1100)-language text has been nominated for renaming
Category:Articles containing Old English (ca. 450-1100)-language text has been nominated for renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. SchreiberBike &#124; ⌨ 01:20, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Merry Merry!
I wish you Happy Holidays! Trailblazer101 (talk) 17:28, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Happy Holidays! - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:30, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:The Simpsons episode redirects to lists


A tag has been placed on Category:The Simpsons episode redirects to lists requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 16:21, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:DC Extended Universe character redirects to lists


A tag has been placed on Category:DC Extended Universe character redirects to lists requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 16:50, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Zee Marathi Original Programming
Hi, re User talk:Gonnym/Archive 4 - what did you do? is showing the same problem. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 20:37, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The self-categorization is caused by the category being incorrectly named ("Original Programming" should not be capitalized). Gonnym appears to have resolved the problem the first time by listing the category for renaming at WP:CFDS, and temporarily suppressing the self-categorization with yes during the two-day waiting period associated with that process. I've now done the first step (proposing the speedy rename) for Category:Zee Marathi Original Programming * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 21:20, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Rule #1 (Batwoman)
How do I create this redirect? That is the episode's name. The # is impossible per WP:NCHASHTAG. -- <b style="color: black;">Kailash29792</b> (talk)  05:39, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
 * It looks like Rule No. 1 (Batwoman) exists. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:17, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Because created it. I checked Action Comics 1 and MeToo (a redirect), and followed the syntax they use. <b style="color: black;">Kailash29792</b>  (talk)  |