User talk:Gonnym/sandboxBigBrother

French Canadian adaptations
In a brief search about the French Canadian versions I did find this article where their version of Loft Story was essentially rebooted as their version of Big Brother that ran for one season. I'm unsure about the disambiguator since WP:NCTV suggests an adjective but I couldn't find any TV shows from Quebec using an adjective. The only other two shows I found on English Wikipedia use "(Quebec TV series)". (Providence (Quebec TV series) & L'École des fans (Quebec TV series)) It seems this article was previously located at Big Brother (Quebecer TV series) but was moved to its current name. I'm not sure what to do there as the move reason seems to conflict with WP:NCTV from my understanding.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  05:54, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's a good question about the Quebec issue. That's something we should ask NCTV about. --Gonnym (talk) 07:18, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Awesome I was leaning with asking NCTV but wasn't 100% sure :)  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  09:05, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Carré ViiiP 2011 (France)
Not to sure if this should even have an article here it would also need a complete re-write to adhere to basic guidelines in my opinion. If it stays then the name alone Carré ViiiP should be good since it is an unique name that wouldn't require further disambiguation.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  05:54, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Most of the non-english versions need re-writes :P --Gonnym (talk) 07:19, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * lol I agree with that 100% I have to look into this one more but I don't believe it part of the Big Brother franchise but a very similar show with French celebrities but since it doesn't have a second season I think this one would be a non-controversial move to just Carré ViiiP that either that one of us could do. I had Google translate the French Wikipedia article into English and it said the name would be "Square ViiiP" or "ViiiP Square" in English.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  09:26, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and moved it to Carré ViiiP and tagged it for the time being. I honestly think that enwiki doesn't need to have an article about this show. If any English speaking people wants to learn about it they would actually benefit by viewing the article at frwiki and translating it via Google as it is better sourced and seems to have a NPOV there.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  09:49, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Australian Big Brother related shows
Just looking into these since they would be easy to knock out. The Up-Late Game Show, Friday Night Games & Download (TV series) are spin-offs of Australian Big Brother based on these sources I was able to find establishing that link. 

Big Brother Uncut, Big Brother: Adults Only & Big Brother Confidential are companion shows of Australian Big Brother and should actually be merged with List of Big Brother Australia shows. There really isn't a lot of information about these shows that I can find (or remember of them) and all the info in their articles would be best suited in the main list. Besides Big Brother: Adults Only is a toned-down version of Big Brother Uncut and at very least these two should be merged together.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  09:04, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, those shows might not be enough for WP:GNG/WP:NTV. I'll ask IJBALL to join the discussion(s) as he might have more to add. --Gonnym (talk) 10:08, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Sounds awesome to me :) but I really didn't think that those shows meet the notability guidelines to warrant a separate article.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  10:39, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Big Brother Brasil
After reviewing this adaptation and its official website the names for each season are correct. The broadcaster, Rede Globo, identifies each season as Big Brother Brasil 18 for example when writing articles on their website. In most cases it uses the abbreviation like BBB18 specific season or Housemate.

So nothing needs to be done with this adaptation as far as naming goes as it pretty much naturally disambiguates itself and it wouldn't impact any other discussions such as what to do with the American and Bulgarian adaptations.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  10:35, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree, seems for Brazil, the current naming style is the correct one. --Gonnym (talk) 10:40, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Nigerian series
So the About page from Big Brother Naija: Double Wahala actually confirms that seasons that were re-branded as Big Brother Naija are a continuation from the first season that aired as Big Brother Nigeria. This page even goes as far to use both Big Brother Naija and Big Brother Nigeria. The official websites for the second and third seasons use the old name in the URL. The press also uses both names when referring to the show. When discussing the first season only the name Big Brother Nigeria is generally used by the press. This article clearly mentions the name change going from the first and second seasons. 

I made three proposals above. We just need to figure out which would be best in this particular situation. I'm more in favor of the standard Wikipedia style for this show since it has two names that apply to the same show (proposal #1) or we can leave it alone since season one doesn't have an article (proposal #3). Proposal #2 is like a middle ground in the event an editor wants to find sources and create an article for season one.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  13:23, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Just verifying if I understood correctly. The series started out as "Big Brother Nigeria" and with seasons 2 and 3 it is now called "Big Brother Naija"? AND seasons 2 and 3 are called by the official productions as 2 and 3? --Gonnym (talk) 13:52, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes you are correct the two seasons that are under the name Big Brother Naija are seasons 2 and 3. Official production here consider the one season under the name Big Brother Nigeria to be the first season.  ♪♫Al  ucard   16♫♪  16:04, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Then the 3rd option is the correct one per WP:NAMECHANGES. The first season's lead should be something like "The first season of Big Brother Naija, known at the time as Big Brother Nigeria" with a reference to something that shows that. --Gonnym (talk) 16:07, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Cool since the first season doesn't have an article at the moment we don't have to worry about that but once this is all completely settled I'll be sure to update WP:BIGBRO with a note about this in the event someone decides to spin the first season off into its own article in the future. I have researched the Angolan series as well and will be posting my findings on your main talk page and pinging IJBall as this one is a bit weird.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  16:10, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I requested this one to be moved as an uncontroversial technical request seems it was originally at Big Brother Naija (season 2) at some point in its life.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    10:34, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Hungarian Adaptation
I was getting ready to do some research on the German adaptation but found some info on the Hungarian version to help out there.

Big Brother (Hungarian TV series) was originally aired in 2002-03 but was canceled. In 2014 an article in Hungry came out about a third season but was canceled due to some new tax at the time. . The third season was to be aired on Super TV2 a secondary channel to the original broadcaster TV2 (Hungary).

Való Világ is a separate format originally aired by RTL Klub a commercial competitor to TV2 (Hungary). Való Világ and Big Brother aired as separate shows in 2002 & 2003. Való Világ moved to RTL II (Hungary) in 2014. On December 12, 2015 RTLII announced it acquired the Hungarian license to the Big Brother format and beginning in 2016 the Hungarian show became known as Való Világ powered by Big Brother. So as a whole Való Világ (franchise) and Big Brother (franchise) are separate formats. The only exception is in Hungry where in 2016 where the two formats merged to create a hybrid season called Való Világ powered by Big Brother and until further notice future seasons in Hungry are hybrids branded with Big Brother.

 ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  01:55, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok, so no change is needed atm, right? --Gonnym (talk) 18:13, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah there would be no change here and I honestly wouldn't recommend translating the name to Real World then the name would need more disambiguation. The show really hasn't received any press outside of Hungary, Czech Republic & Slovakia from what I have found so far.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  04:33, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

German adaptation (Also a blurb for Spanish, Italian & Israeli)
For this version it seems the name Big Brother Germany is not its official name. In this article from Variety they use the name Big Brother for the German adaptation. They also use Grande Fratello for the Italian version and Gran Hermano for the Spanish version. For the Israeli version they translate the name to Big Brother. Endemol Shine Germany refer to the series as Big Brother I also looked at an archive version of Endemol's German website pre-merger and they also call it Big Brother. This Australian source about a contestant was the only one I saw that used the name Big Brother Germany. The show on air didn't number the seasons in any way. The first 11 seasons on RTL II kept the original logo of the format just tweaking it slightly while the 12th season on sixx used a different logo.

 ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  16:56, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree with the Big Brother (German) change and leaving Promi as is. Leave Der Container to the end, no idea what to do with that. --Gonnym (talk) 18:11, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't worry too much about Der Container right now as it is an abnormally. I agree with the change for mainline series though.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  04:37, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'll submit a RM in regards to the main German series within the next week I don't think there will be any controversy over it with the sources provided. After this one the next one I propose would be moving the Israeli version to Big Brother (Israeli TV series) since we have English sources translating its name into English. We can discuss the change from broadcasters at a different time but that move would be easiest for now.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  21:01, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Sure. I'm sure we'll know much better near year how they call the season, if they call it season 2 or season 10. --Gonnym (talk) 22:03, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Bigg Boss - All Regional Varients
Heya Gonnym after seeing the move discussion in regards to Bigg Boss Kannada I did some more research into this one.

The first table is just pure facts. It is divided into two subsections based on the company that broadcasts each version on TV and online. Both companies (Viacom 18 and STAR India) handle their respective adaptations differently. It also includes the name EndemolShine India, the official production company, uses for each adaptation. The name used in the logo and opening titles. The final component is the name used by the press in India for each adaptation.

This table pretty much explains my logic based on all relevant information available in regards to the names for all Bigg Boss articles. In short I believe the names used for all parent articles should not be changed as they fall under WP:COMMONNAME policy and the name for the Marathi version falls under WP:ENGLISH because its full name is Bigg Boss Marathi in English. For all versions except for the Telugu version the season articles need to be moved to align with WP:NCTV. The Telugu version should be held to the end along with all other numbered editions.

 ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  07:37, 10 August 2018 (UTC)


 * From the season 5 finale of Kannada - while the website calls it with the language, the big giant logo in the background just says "BIGG BOSS GRAND FINALE". --Gonnym (talk) 13:04, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Portugal
As I investigate I keep finding a common theme that en~Wiki is usually wrong in these matters and our foreign cousins, in this case pt~Wiki, is more accurate when it comes to non-English series. Secret Story: Luta Pelo Poder and Secret Story: O Reencontrohas nothing to do with the four Desafio final seasons except with the sole fact they all have past contestants taking part. The broadcaster considers Luta Pelo Poder and O Reencontro as new editions because of their different rules.This link calls Luta Pelo Poder a new edition not a continuation of Desafio final. This right here is our smoking gun this source specifically states Portugal's Secret Story has had to date 7 main seasons with several spin-offs including 4 seasons of Desafio final and 1 each of Luta Pelo Poder and O Reencontro. I'm gonna go update the parent article to accurately reflect this.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  06:01, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Also with Big Brother VIP 3 (Portugal) I'm not sure what to do here. It looks like some sort of reboot or revival on the same channel with the same broadcaster. English sources: Portuguese sources:  ♪♫Al  ucard   16♫♪  07:44, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * So Desafio has 4 seasons and these two are just 1-shot spin-offs. If no English source, use thier local name. Regarding the VIP. Lets follow this which says The first two editions of the format with celebrities in our country have gained the name of "Big Brother Famous". In 2013 the name changes slightly, but the concept remains. "Big Brother VIP" is the new name of the reality show that will close a group of people in the house of Venda do Pinheiro. (google translate) - so we have two "Big Brother Famosos" and 1 "Big Brother VIP" with hatnotes between the first seasons of both. --Gonnym (talk) 15:35, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
 * So then Secret Story is sorted we don't have to worry about it then. The main question is how to handle the Big Brother naming issue? Portuguese Wikipedia just names the article Big Brother VIP while noting in the lead its the third season of Big Brother Famosos so in this instance I think we can follow their lead here and rename it Big Brother VIP (Portuguese TV series) while noting the same in the lead.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  17:45, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
 * It should not be noted in the lead that it's the 3rd season, if it were, we would have called it season 3. It should be mentioned that its a celebrity season but that its not a continuation of the Famosos series which ended in 2002. --Gonnym (talk) 17:49, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Also, we still have all season names of Secret Story and Secret Story: Desafio to fix/verify. --Gonnym (talk) 17:51, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Breaking out Portugal's Secret Story into a separate section. Understood about Big Brother seasons and Australia's merge is complete.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  20:19, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ Went ahead and moved Portugal's Big Brother VIP article, added hatnotes and cleaned up lead for clarification.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    04:33, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Ukraine
This was very hard to find sources for since the official website is offline and it doesn't seem it received a lot of coverage. For the Ukrainian edition the opening titles and logo shows the name as Big Brother Україна which translates into English as Big Brother Ukraine. So from my understanding of WP:ENGLISH even without an English source Big Brother Україна would be incorrect and the article would need to be named Big Brother Ukraine.

Now the broadcaster K1 in their TV listing just showed the name as Big Brother and the broadcaster used the name Big Brother and Big Brother Україна interchangeably when writing articles about the show. Articles where the broadcaster used just Big Brother:  Articles with the name Big Brother Україна:. This is the only English source I can find. So from my understanding either Big Brother Ukraine or Big Brother (Ukrainian TV series) would be correct however from my understanding of guidelines Big Brother Україна would not be correct. Your thoughts Gonnym?  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  08:09, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * The English source is not good as that was a news source before the show began so we don't know the name. Whatever we choose, don't use the non-English letter name. No idea which one is better from those two. --Gonnym (talk) 15:37, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Well since we have sources where the broadcaster has used both Big Brother and Big Brother Україна interchangeably we technically can make this easy on ourselves by including a note in the article that both names are correct since we can prove the broadcaster uses both Big Brother and Big Brother Україна to refer to the show and leave the name as is.  ♪♫Al  ucard   16♫♪  17:35, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Sure, sounds good. --Gonnym (talk) 17:37, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Updates on some remaining small issues
 ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  14:16, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Merged Gran Hermano 2 (Colombia) into Gran Hermano (Colombian TV series) on 11/23/18. It would be uncontroversial IMO and the season article was frequent target of vandalism due to its unsourced nature.
 * Gran Hermano Spain (All Stars), Gran Hermano (Spain) All Stars 2011 and Gran Hermano (Spain) All Stars 2 were moved to their correct titles of El Reencuentro (season 1), El Reencuentro (season 2) and Gran Hermano: La Re-vuelta back on 11/2/18. The duplicate articles for El Reencuentro (season 2) and Gran Hermano: La Re-vuelta were also histmerged into the correct ones.
 * The UK series Teen Big Brother: The Experiment, Big Brother Panto and Big Brother: Celebrity Hijack are named correctly as they are one time spin-offs.
 * House Calls: The Big Brother Talk Show, Big Brother: After Dark and Off the Block with Ross and Marissa are US companion shows. They are named correctly.
 * Big Brother Türkiye is the correct name based on logo and opening titles. So we just need to figure out what to do here.

Roadmap
I think the next series that should get RM are the Indian Bigg Boss series, the German Big Brother and the Spanish Gran Hermano. Thoughts? --Gonnym (talk) 10:43, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me although I always shudder with fear thinking of the the Bigg Boss articles in general.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  10:47, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm just gonna wrap up my research into the British adaptation then get cracking on one of the three above.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  10:50, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Bulgarian VIP series
VIP Brother season articles are undergoing a RM as of 28 November 2018 all relevant parties have been notified. The discussion about these articles are tied to the overall discussion of User talk:Gonnym/sandboxBigBrother. This is here for tracking purposes.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    12:13, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Finnish series
Here is what I found out about the Finnish season. Seems the year was used consistently from 2006-2011 was correct.

 ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  18:37, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Since the style isn't consistent, then the normal style should be used - (Finnish season #) with the lead saying what the official name was. --Gonnym (talk) 11:27, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
 * With all versions of Big Brother I'm not counting the first season when it comes to establishing the naming conventions. This is not fair to those articles when trying to sort out the proper naming convention. A case in point WP:NCTV uses the naming convention of Survivor (U.S. TV series) season articles as an example for when all seasons have a subtitle. However the first season (Survivor: Borneo) originally aired with no subtitle then was given its current subtitle in 2004 which CBS has used ever since. If there are reliable sources that the first season has been renamed retroactively (or has a common name) that matches an established naming convention then we are good there.
 * My thoughts on this was to use (Finnish season #) on the grounds of consistency reasons because their celebrity edition has a separate name from the rest. For their celebrity edition the name Big Brother 2013 doesn't seem to be used except in the URL when they used to archive their websites. When researching this version I got most of the information about their celebrity edition using the name Julkkis Big Brother. This also falls in line with how the season articles of The Apprentice (U.S. TV series) are named where the civilian and celebrity editions are all counted as main editions. If we use this during the RM I feel that we would have less push back and limit the reasoning of potential oppose !votes.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  23:59, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Pinging here, also I feel if we use the reason proposed above and add that the RM only affects the Finnish version only I think we can go ahead and propose the RM sooner than we expected here instead of holding it off until the end with the others. What do y'all think? Good idea or no?  ♪♫Al  ucard   16♫♪  00:06, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * So, to be clear – are we going to propose moving them all as per Big Brother (Finnish season 1)? Or as per Big Brother 2005 (Finnish season)?... If the year was used consistently in the titling for all of the show's seasons – which I gather was not the case here – the latter option wouldn't be great, but it would be OK... But if we're proposing taking them all to Big Brother (Finnish season 1), etc., as long as the WP:RM proposal is clear in presenting why it is being proposed that they all get moved this way, I think the RM will go OK. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 00:13, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Proposing all to be moved as per Big Brother (Finnish season 1) due to them counting their celebrity season as their ninth season which also broke the pattern in spectacular fashion. I'm using The Apprentice (U.S. TV series) for the precedent for this.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  00:59, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I was just saying in general I'm not counting the first season in any version when trying to figure out the naming convention that was used since broadcasters seem to establish naming conventions after the first season then retroactively rename the first season like CBS did with Surivivors first season.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪ ' 01:03, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Season articles are undergoing a RM as of 28 November 2018 all relevant parties have been notified.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    12:13, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Gran Hermano (Spanish TV series)
From what I can find the first season was simply Gran Hermano with the numbering in the opening titles starting with the tenth season. The logo remained the same until the tenth season when the number was included in the logo. The exceptions to this was the thirteenth & eighteenth seasons which were called Gran Hermano 12+1 and Gran Hermano Revolution respectively. From what I can tell when discussing past seasons is where the the numbering for seasons 1-9 comes into play.. From what openings I have seen of the celebrity (VIP) edition I haven't found any numbers in their openings.

For this edition I recommend following WP:NCTV guidelines for all editions especially since the first 9 seasons didn't have numbers. I'm sorry about the lack of sources but I couldn't find a whole bunch of reliable sources for this edition.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  14:17, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The logo for 14 seems to spell out the word 14 and not show the number. Do you know if there was a different logo with the number? --Gonnym (talk) 14:52, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The main logo for that season spelled out the number while this was the only site I found that had the number.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  02:08, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Standard NCTV style should be used. --Gonnym (talk) 11:30, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Season articles for parent series and celebrity series are undergoing a RM as of 1 December 2018 all relevant parties have been notified.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    13:03, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Portugal's Secret Story
So with Secret Story here are some quick finds I have found:
 * With the main series we have the correct names seasons two - seven actually called Secret Story 2, Secret Story 3, Secret Story 4, etc. and the number is included in the graphics shown during the show. However the main series has the subtitle "Casa dos Segredos" which translates to "House of Secrets" and the Portuguese press often refers to each main season in the short form of "Casa dos Segredos #". Now according to the bio of this contestant who won the first season the broadcaster does retroactively refer to the first season as "Casa dos Segredos 1" which means they consider the name of the first season to be Secret Story: A Casa dos Segredos 1.


 * With Desafio Final I haven't found out much about the first season but the second and third did include the number during the show and in the graphics. The fourth season the broadcaster decided to use a subtitle instead of a number in the graphics. Now in the bio above that same contestant also was in the first season of Desafio Final and the broadcaster also calls it Desafio Final 1. For the 4th season I did stumble across a source referring to the fourth season as Desafio Final 4 which could indicate that it is a common name for the season despite the broadcaster using a subtitle.

So in a quick search the main series is a solid as a rock while Desafio Final is a case that it has 2 confirmed numbered seasons, 1 subtitled season and 1 non-numbered season which by WP:NCTV guidelines had the correct disambig tag been sorted before season 4 premiered then it would be a non issue and would have continued on with the naming scheme used by the first three seasons.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  20:54, 6 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Desafio Final: Ok, so seems that "Secret Story: Desafio Final #" is the correct name.
 * Main series: found an English source which mentions it, not a good one, but at least something. Secret Story: Casa dos Segredos. This local source uses both names, but not together. So it seems that we should either go with Secret Story: Casa dos Segredos for the series, or Secret Story (Portuguese TV series); and for the seasons Secret Story: Casa dos Segredos 1 or Secret Story 1 (Portuguese season) (second style should probably ask IJBall what he thinks, as far as I know, this hasn't been done before). --Gonnym (talk) 21:10, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Well renaming them based on the English source (I agree with you not a very good one but something) would solve this particular series but overall we will still have this issue. If we go with Secret Story 1 (Portuguese season) and it is successful it would serve as a template for future series that have similar naming conventions. Should we move this to your main talk page and ping IJBall to get his insight?  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  21:30, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, probably. --Gonnym (talk) 22:53, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Once we do the Bulgarian move, this should follow the same style. --Gonnym (talk) 11:24, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Season articles for parent series are undergoing a RM as of 5 December 2018 all relevant parties have been notified. I added an extra note to these notices to get editors attention for this one.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    19:12, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Secret Story 2010 (Greece)
Stray article for a non-existent season has been nominated for deletion. This article's deletion entry can be discussed here.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    19:17, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Big Brother (U.S. TV series)
I also looked into the names of each season of the American version (I put my findings in my sandbox) and the current names (Big Brother #) would be correct. CBS did name seasons 2-8 & 10 by their season number and this is reflected in the opening titles of each episode and during the premier episodes of those seasons. Julie Chen even says the number as part of the names during these seasons except for season 7 & 9 where she used their subtitles. CBS retroactively named the first season Big Brother 1 during the All-Stars season you can see this when George is interviewed in the Diary Room during various episodes. The production team also created a Big Brother 1 logo during the pre-season casting special for the seventh season when the public was able to vote on who should be on the All-Stars season.

CBS dropped the number from the name starting with the eleventh season and that is when they started to use "Big Brother season #" to primarily identify each season while on occasion using the old naming convention. Around this time reliable sources began using "Big Brother season #" in the body of the article while using "Big Brother #" in the subject line. Based on what I could find the official name for seasons 2-8 & 10 is "Big Brother (season number)" while the commonly recognizable names for seasons 1, 9 & 11-present would use the same format (i.e. Big Brother 20). So I think the issue here is the dismabiguator.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  05:54, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Those are great findings. They show that 10 seasons use a non-numbered name, 9 seasons use a numbered name and 1 season uses a subtitle. I'd still go with non-numbered NCTV names, but this would be a heated discussion it seems. Same response regarding the Bulgarian show, better keep these for last. --Gonnym (talk) 07:14, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah I agree holding this to the end I just wanted to get the sources before my CBS All Access subscription ran out lol. However because it would be a very heated discussion I would suggest a compromise for this adaptation instead of holding to the general WP:NCTV guidelines especially if the Bulgarian edition can keep its numbers. If seasons 1-10 had proper disambiguation with the number in the title before the eleventh season premiered then the naming convention would have simply carried over on the grounds of consistency and commonly recognizable names policies. I think in this case we should see how the discussion about the Bulgarian articles turn out before making a move here.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  09:36, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * NCTV does agree that a A consistent naming scheme should be used for all season articles of a TV show: if one season is named something special, this should be noted through redirects and in the article's WP:LEAD, but the article should be named in the same fashion as the other season pages., however, my problem with this logic is that seasons 11+ were never called "Big Brother 11", so that is a made up name. However, the first season of Big Brother, using a title of "Big Brother (U.S. season 1) is technically correct. It's a "Big Brother" show and it was the first season. Note that disambiguations are not official titles, but descriptive titles. The Bulgarian issue is a bit different as all seasons seem to be using numbers. --Gonnym (talk) 10:04, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Well with the Bulgarian version its first season didn't use numbers and its logo was the same like the first editions of the American, Dutch & German versions. Only seasons 2-4 of the Bulgarian version used numbers while the fifth used a subtitle. The first season was retconned to Big Brother 1 based on the official website for the second Bulgarian season where it included a link back to the first season's website. The American version however is in a unique boat where reliable sources still use the  naming style even though CBS rarely uses that naming method in news articles on the official website. This is where I can see most of the disagreement come into play is where reliable sources still use it and CBS on occasion in news articles.  ♪♫Al  ucard   16♫♪  10:55, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Well if not all Bulgarian seasons were named Big Brother #, then that too might change. I thought all seasons used the numbers. But yeah, that's why we should leave the numbers til the end, so at the very least the argument of "that's how all big brother shows do" won't be a viable argument and only specific cases should have it (like the Brazil version). --Gonnym (talk) 11:04, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Based on the fact that there are two separate naming styles - first "half" is Big Brother #, while second "half" is Big Brother (season #), then NCTV should be used here (unless I missed something). --Gonnym (talk) 11:32, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm gonna ping here as his insight on this may help as well. The current naming convention for the American main (civilian) edition should be maintained in its current form of Big Brother # for the following reasons:
 * Seasons 2-8, 10 officially used this convention and were named as such.
 * Season 1 was renamed during the seventh season to match the then established naming convention. This is similar to how Survivor: Borneo was given its subtitle during its tenth season (Survivor: Palau).
 * Had the season articles been properly disambiguated during seasons 1-10 (i.e. something like Big Brother # (U.S. season)) then the current naming convention would continue as per WP:CONSISTENCY.
 * Despite the on air change to a generic logo beginning with Season 11 the naming convention of Big Brother # is still the common name for each season by reliable sources (see my sandbox for examples).
 * In addition to reliable sources using the old naming style, CBS and the production team still use the old naming convention as a secondary naming convention. When articles are written on the official website about past contestants they will use Big Brother #. They will also use the old naming style in episode descriptions. The Twitter hashtag used for each season is #BB(number) as well.
 * Promotional material and the promotional logo used for the twentieth season by CBS used the name Big Brother 20.
 * During live shows the note cards Julie holds uses the older 2D logo of the show. If you watch a live episode from twentieth season for example you will see the logo on her note cards clearly says Big Brother 20.
 * Also this reinforces my above point, if you look at the official website right now the description of the final episode of clearly states "Who will win the final three-part Head of Household competition? And which Houseguest will go on to be crowned the winner of Big Brother 20 and take home the half-million dollars?"
 * Because reliable sources, CBS and the production team are still using the older naming convention in various ways this satisfies both common name the recognizability parts of the article titles policy.
 * The current naming convention also satisfies the naturalness part of the policy as this would be the term people and readers would search for.
 * When it comes to the parts precision and conciseness of the article title policy both Big Brother # (U.S. season) and Big Brother (U.S. season #) would be work and have the same effect.


 * This is why for the main edition of the American version we should maintain the current naming convention and the policy to back it up. From all my research so far the American and Brazilian Big Brother editions are the only two that should keep the current conventions. The celebrity edition however is a different story and depends on how the second season is handled by CBS, production and the press.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  09:24, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Entire series undergoing a RM discussion.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    12:36, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Big Brother & Celebrity Big Brother - UK adaptation
There really isn't a consistent naming structure used by either broadcaster of this adaptation. During the Channel 4 years (2000-2010) the host, Davina McCall, would refer to a particular series on air during live episodes as either  or simply. Channel 4's micro-sites for past editions would refer to the main series as  and incorrectly referred to the third and fifth celebrity editions as the fifth and seventh respectively. When some specials would air they would use a mixture of names depending on the main edition or celebrity edition. One example is the special Big Brother: Around the World which referred to the fifth and sixth series as Big Brother 5 and Big Brother 6 respectively but referred to the fourth celebrity series as Celebrity Big Brother 2006.

Channel 5 seems to favor subtitles to identify each series but again this isn't consistent. (Examples the sixteenth main series was called Big Brother: Timebomb while the 21st celebrity series was called Celebrity Big Brother: Year of the Woman) Originally these articles during the Channel 4 run were titled  but were moved to their current names based on these discussions when Channel 5 announced 2 series per year for the celebrity edition. Reliable sources have used names like Big Brother 2 or Celebrity Big Brother 2015 (which that name could refer to the 15th or 16th series). It seems like the standard WP:NCTV guidelines would be best for this adaptation.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  12:45, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree with standard style, since no consistent naming style was used and any one picked for the rest will just be wrong. --Gonnym (talk) 11:29, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

UK series
I looked into the UK version and found some articles and searched some episodes from all the series and from what I can tell this is a tossup. We can literally find sources to support any naming scheme for this one especially the current one. The naming scheme we currently use has been used by the British press as far back as 2001 when the second series aired. So it is safe to say that the current naming is not original research and is not a citogenesis incident since the articles were moved to their current titles in 2011 and previously used Big Brother (year) and Celebrity Big Brother (year). Might be best to put this one back on hold as well. Sorry for the very long post here.

Articles
Here are some articles I've found supporting the current naming scheme. It seems it has been used since 2001 and the naming scheme Big Brother # and Celebrity Big Brother # are common names and often used by the press to refer to the individual series. I even found a surviving press release from Channel 4 where they used Celebrity Big Brother 5 name in a press release. There is probably more but here is some for now.

Channel 4 (2000-2010)


 * Another Guardian article from 2001 that refers to the second season as Big Brother 2.
 * This article from Independant.co.uk from 2007 about rumored contestants for the fifth season uses the Celebrity Big Brother # convention for seasons 1-4.
 * I found a press release about Celebrity Big Brother 5 (UK) from the official broadcaster Channel 4 and in the press release at the bottom it clearly states: "Celebrity Big Brother 5 was broadcast from 3rd to 28th January."
 * Elstree Studios where the UK version's House is located also referred to the fifth season as Celebrity Big Brother 5. While the article doesn't have a date the URL has the year 2007 the year it aired.
 * Another The Guardian article supporting the name Celebrity Big Brother 6.
 * This article from The Guardian from 2009 supports the naming convention Big Brother # for seasons 1-10.
 * A "Top 10 Housemates" article from The Telegraph supports current naming conventions for Celebrity Big Brother 4 (UK), Celebrity Big Brother 5 (UK), seasons 1-3, 5 & 7-8.

Channel 5 (2011-2018)
 * An article from Metro.co.uk listing all the winners (except for the 19th regular series).
 * Article from ITV News that has the names Big Brother 1, Big Brother 3, Big Brother 7, Celebrity Big Brother 5 and Celebrity Big Brother 22''
 * Spanish article using the English name Celebrity Big Brother 22
 * Article from Inquisitr that uses Celebrity Big Brother 18
 * An article about various ejected Housemates from Digital Spy that uses several names like Big Brother 8 and Celebrity Big Brother 16

Episodes
I looked over some of the episodes to help see where some of the naming conventions for this edition came from. Only seasons 1-4 of the main series and the first two celebrity seasons actually have the name in the opening titles. The rest only include the logo and omit the name of the program. I included a table for Channel 4 because they seem to flip-flop between the two but with Channel 5 I decided not to include a table because they were more straightforward.

Channel 4
From what I can tell the naming convention of Big Brother (year) and Celebrity Big Brother (year) comes from the live episodes where the host Davina McCall welcomes and introduces the show. There is one instance where she broke from the year pattern and went with numbers. Their only All-Stars season Ultimate Big Brother was the most confusing where it used both for some seasons as noted by the table.

Channel 5
They were actually more consistent than I remember. For the main series the host continued calling each series Big Brother (year) when welcoming the viewer to the program. Similar to the celebrity series the main series would break away from this established pattern when a series was given a subtitle. Examples include the fifteenth series was known as Big Brother: Power Trip and the sixteenth series was known as Big Brother: Timebomb. Some series were known by both names on air like the fourteenth series was known as Big Brother 2013 and Big Brother: Secrets and Lies.

The celebrity series was where they changed the style. Starting with the tenth series (the second season in the 2012 year) the host stopped calling each series Celebrity Big Brother (year) and simply refers to each series as Celebrity Big Brother. They did break away from this pattern on occasion when a series was given a subtitle like the sixteenth series was known on air as Celebrity Big Brother: UK vs USA. Now once in a while the host did revert back to the old naming like with the seventeenth series the host called it Celebrity Big Brother 2016.

Specials
Both broadcasters have aired specials that either aired before or after a particular series. These specials would use ex-Housemates as commentators and would use abbreviations under their name via the on screen graphics or the full name of the season they were on. I put two examples in a table below one from each broadcaster how they identified ex-Housemates and crew that worked on a particular season.

So there is what I was able to find on BBUK so far. As for the one time spin-offs Teen Big Brother: The Experiment, Big Brother Panto, Big Brother: Celebrity Hijack and Ultimate Big Brother are named correctly. The logo for Ultimate Big Brother is the same logo used for Big Brother 11 (UK).  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  09:10, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Proposal
Honestly for Big Brother and Celebrity Big Brother here I can find you all kinds of reliable sources and instances from the various specials and live episodes where either the names Big Brother # or Big Brother (year) were used during the 18 years this edition was on air that would meet WP:V for the current naming convention. Both naming conventions can also be supported by WP:RECOGNIZABLE and WP:COMMONNAME policies.


 * I would recommend a mass move for all Big Brother (UK TV series) and Celebrity Big Brother (UK TV series) moving them to Big Brother (UK series #) and Celebrity Big Brother (UK series #) using the policy WP:CONSISTENCY as the primary reason. This will help take some heat off WP:NCTV here since editors really can't argue against a policy.
 * Propose this edition at the exact same time as the American version. These two seem to go hand in hand and if we want both those editions to be discussed on their own merits by both sides then the only way is to propose these two at the exact same time so they can't be used to derail each other.
 * A RM proposal could look like this (examples with links can be added later):

For Big Brother (UK TV series) and Celebrity Big Brother (UK TV series) each individual series (aka season) has several recognizable and common names that on their own would be suitable article titles but are not acceptable when trying to establish a consistent pattern of article titles and I believe would also cause an issue with the titles being neutral. An example of this the recognizable and common names for all Big Brother articles are Big Brother (year) and Big Brother # by choosing one naming convention it could be seen as Wikipedia choosing one over the other. For this reason I'm proposing moving all Big Brother and Celebrity Big Brother articles to Big Brother (UK series #) and Celebrity Big Brother (UK series #) as outlined by WP:NCTV with redirects of all recognizable and common names to their respective series article. I believe this would be the best consistent, neutral pattern of article titles for this programme.

I think if we word the proposal something like this for this edition it would really eliminate a lot of the oppose !votes and the support would be easy to gain here. What do you think and  is this a good idea to try for this edition?  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  00:55, 21 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Entire series undergoing a RM discussion   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    12:36, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

I archived the discussion above since the RM closed as successful. I'm leaving this here for now as the List of xxx housemates need to be moved to match the new names. Once that is done I'll move this discussion to the completed editions archive at the top. I already took care of the U.S. series.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    18:56, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Big Brother season templates
Template:Big Brother housemates, Template:Big Brother endgame and Template:Big Brother endgame2 has been nominated for merging with Template:Infobox television season. The discussion can be found here.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    20:17, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Just noting here that these are non-Big Brother articles that will need to have table added to these articles as they use Big Brother endgame   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    01:07, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Back to Reality (TV series) - Needs Infobox television
 * Castaway 2007 - has both Infobox television and Big Brother endgame. The information from Big Brother endgame needs to be converted into a table.
 * There Goes the Neighborhood (TV series) - Not sure why Big Brother endgame is there it already has a table with this information? Article also has Infobox television.
 * Farma (Croatian TV series) - Seasons don't have their own articles but the infoboxes are used in the sections.
 * Acorralados - Replace Big Brother endgame with Infobox television
 * Fazenda de Verão - Need to move the Days from Big Brother endgame to Guests table


 * Ok, so these articles all seem to be in the style of Big Brother - reality show where people leave each week. So the module name would probably be "Template:Infobox reality competition season" or something. I know there would probably also be a "Template:Infobox talent competition" which might be a separate one or might eventually join this one.--Gonnym (talk) 07:37, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I think for everyone's sanity this module should remain separate from a module from talent show competitions. It should probably be named Big Brother but for the housemate parameter a switch could be included so it could say "contestants" as an alternate for "housemates" or "houseguests" for similar shows that also use it since that would be the only change I can see.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    07:58, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Since there is no research yet what the talent competition articles actually need, I can't say if a separate one is needed or not. If for example template module A had 5 parameters and another type of articles used 3 of those and added 1 more, there is no need to create a new one just for that. The current template system is horrible. If template were to be converted to modules that would be a different story all together...but the editors here seem to not like that idea when I asked why. Anyways, regarding the name, if the infobox is used by other reality shows it should have a generic name. We could create a redirect from "Template:Infobox Big Brother season" if you feel like the Big Brother community can't handle the generic name. --Gonnym (talk) 08:05, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I thought talent competitions already had their own with Infobox television season/custom?   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    08:18, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah they do its Infobox reality talent competition   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    08:19, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * That is on my backlist of reworking templates. That template makes it seem like it's a sub-template of the season one, it really isn't. It should work like the one we are creating now. --Gonnym (talk) 08:22, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about the custom template or both? (Sorry I'm a bit confused at the moment been a long day)   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    08:28, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Both Template:Infobox reality talent competition and Template:Infobox television season/custom should eventually use the season infobox with a custom module. There is no reason why both have to fork their content and create these strange templates. --Gonnym (talk) 08:34, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah okay honestly you may need at minimum 3 custom modules for the plan to work.
 * Infobox television season/custom can be one module because they have similar fields (like judges, number of tasks, they include all stars, etc.)
 * Infobox reality talent competition would be part of the same module that custom would be part of because they have similar fields.
 * The module that is being created for Big Brother can also be used to replace Infobox television Survivor. The housemates parameter would just need to be swapped with castaways for Survivor articles. This would also be the module to eventually replace IACGMOOH contestants.
 * Infobox television Amazing Race will most likely need its own module as it is the most unique infobox out of them all with the most unique fields.
 * This way it keeps a single module from being cluttered up with all the fields of the various reality TV shows and Big Brother editors don't need America's Next Top Model editors consensus to change something in the custom module.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    08:50, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, a lot of work, which is why I haven't started :) Also, some fields like "all stars" I have no idea what this for as those 3 examples given don't even use it. I also believe "number of tasks" is trivia garbage, but that will have to be discussed in the merge request itself (but without "number of tasks" and "all stars", most of those series can just use this template. --Gonnym (talk) 08:58, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I see your point the reason why for now I am suggesting the module for Big Brother be separate is because it omits the All-Stars fields. Actually the fields for the three examples do work but the documentation is confusing and not clear on implementation. So if you look at Infobox television season/custom and click The Apprentice (U.S. season 13) you don't see the "All-Stars" field in the infobox. However if you go to an article like The Apprentice (U.S. season 7) you will see the "All-Stars" field in use and it links back to the season thirteen article. It works the same way with America's Next Top Model while Top Chef doesn't use it at all. It actually took me 15 minutes to figure that out.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    09:07, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Lol, so yeah. No reason at all for that stupid parameter. So I think the unique ones are this one (reality competition season), "talent competition season" (for Idol, Dancing with the Stars, etc) maybe - need to see if only judges is needed or the whole "song won" etc, "Amazing Race season". --Gonnym (talk) 09:20, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Not archiving this discussion until all season articles are using the Infobox reality competition season.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    17:04, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I've updated the articles that are using the new template. If you convert any new ones, update it on the list so we can keep track of what's left. --Gonnym (talk) 13:34, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Big Brother Albania
Discussion now ongoing at Talk:Big Brother (Albanian TV series). Placeholder for tracking purposes.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    15:28, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Big Brother (Israeli TV series)
So its clear that HaAh HaGadol should be moved to Big Brother (Israeli TV series) however the issue is with the seasons. Reshet is starting the numbering over since the program was moved to their network in 2018. They did this with HaAh HaGadol 9 and they are now doing it with HaAh HaGadol VIP 3. According to Google Translate this in Hebrew "האח הגדול VIP, עונה 1, פרק 1: המפורסמים באים" translates to "Big Brother VIP, Season 1, Episode 1: Famous People Come" in English. (Link to Episode 1 on official website) The application process for the next main season does say season two. Normally I would have no problem with naming this Big Brother VIP (2019 Israeli season 1) but again they are blurring the lines between their series and Keshet's series by having a former Big Brother Housemate in the House.

(note for the section below I'm grabbing the English translation of their names from Reshet's URLs)
 * HaAh HaGadol 9 in a twist had former reality TV show contestants enter the House as eligible Housemates to win. Avivit Bar Zohar took part in HaAh HaGadol 4 and in her bio for Reshet they maintain the continuity link by saying she competed in "the fourth season of Big Brother years ago" (Google English translation).Avivit's Reshet bio They do not specify Keshet or the year. The bio for Omir was a bit more vague in saying he "managed to reach the "Big Brother" finals three years ago." Omri's Reshet bio
 * HaAh HaGadol VIP 3 has a former Housemate from Keshet's series taking part. Shai Hai was a Housemate in Keshet's HaAh HaGadol 7 and in Reshet's bio for Shai it says he "became famous during the 7th season of Big Brother at the beginning of 2016..." Shai Hai's Reshet bio

As far as the format goes there doesn't seem to be a difference between the Keshet and Reshet series. Both are using the same logo and theme music, they both have the same core format (housemates nominate, public evict) and they have a tendency to adopt twists first seen in Big Brother (UK TV series). Aside from the different networks there are new hosts that's really the only differences that stand out to me. A new house really isn't a reason for a "reboot" as a new House is a commonplace each year. For international editions like Australia they tore theirs down and built a new House each year.
 * Keshet's HaAh HaGadol VIP 1 adopted the same opening night twist from Celebrity Big Brother (UK series 6) where a single Housemate had to judge their fellow Housemates and nominate three of them based on certain criteria.
 * Reshet's HaAh HaGadol VIP 3 is adopting the opening night twist from Celebrity Big Brother (UK series 11) where the Housemates are divided into a "luxury House" and a cold dump area (The British season called it "Basement" and based on the first episode of the Israeli that I have seen theirs is modeled after sewers.)

From what I can tell Hebrew Wikipedia has adopted a similar style that English Wikipedia uses to deal with American Idol which is to continue the common numbering convention but note in the lead the differences between the numbers. I.E. for HaAh HaGadol VIP 3 we would say "The third overall season of Big Brother VIP premiered on January 12, 2019. This is the first season of Big Brother VIP to air on Reshet 13 after Keshet aired the first two seasons on Channel 2."

What I think would help here is to see how the press is referring to the Reshet seasons. Are they calling them "season 1" or "season 9" and "season 3" respectively? If the Israeli press going by the overall numbers like the American press does for American Idol then we can continue on with the exiting numbering. If the Israeli press has reset along with Reshet and is referring to the 2018 and 2019 seasons as "season 1" then we may need to do the double disambiguation.

However this leaves another problem as a fully rebooted series gets two parent articles like Hawaii Five-O (1968 TV series) and Hawaii Five-0 (2010 TV series). If we go down the double disambiguation route what do we do with the parent article HaAh HaGadol? It currently is serving as the parent article for both the Keshet and Reshet series.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    17:46, 14 January 2019 (UTC)


 * EndemolShine has their own YouTube channel called Big Brother Universe which aired the first US Celebrity season last year. They have a clip from Reshet's first season but in the title it had "HaAh HaGadol 9 - Big Brother Israel" . I think this may help figuring out how to name these since EndemolShine is the format owner, part owner in Reshet and also the producer in Israel if I'm not mistaken.    Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    06:14, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah that looks good. Worst case scenario, if the next regular season they call it season 2, we can revisit this. --Gonnym (talk) 08:39, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Piony Big Brother (Philippines)
Pinoy Big Brother might be the most complex out of all Big Brother articles and is the most unique in terms of format used around the world. While the basic premise remains the same the twists each season is what really make this unique. ABS-CBN is the broadcaster for this edition.

Before trying to figure out the naming conventions for this edition its actually important to understand how the format works.

From 2005 - 2012 this edition was similar to other versions of Big Brother with its season breakdown. The Philippines is notable for having three different versions based on three contestant types adult civilians, celebrities and teenagers. During this time period each contestant type was featured in their own individual shows.


 * Adult civilians - This is the normal contestant type and start the numbering for the mainline series Pinoy Big Brother.
 * Celebrities - Celebrities are the most common secondary contestant type and starts the first spin-off Piony Big Brother: Celebrity Edition.
 * Teenagers - This is an uncommon type and the Philippines is the only edition to have a regular spin-off featuring teenagers. This is Pinoy Big Brother: Teen Edition

The program took 2013 off and returned in 2014 with one singular edition now known as Special Edition. These special editions combine at least two contestant types (typically adults and teenagers) into one season. Occasionally a special edition will add celebrities alongside the adult civilians and teenagers.


 * Frequency - This most seasons airs at least one episode per day so if a season lasts 100 days it will have at least 100 episodes. This is why the articles summarizes the events by Day not by Episode.

Celebrity Edition
This is the easiest to sort out of the bunch since it only had two seasons. The first season was known on air as Pinoy Big Brother: Celebrity Edition while the second season was known as Pinoy Big Brother: Celebrity Edition 2 so the naming is 50/50 here. I'm in favor of leaving the naming for this edition alone since ABS-CBN retroactively referred to the first season as "Celebrity Edition 1" here.

Teen Edition
This edition used subtitles for the second and third season while the fourth was numbered while ABS-CBN retroactively numbered the first season here.

Now there is nothing wrong with these names but WP:NCTV does recommend consistency. However the current names are the most recognizable names for each season. Gonnym recommends Pinoy Big Brother: Teen Edition (season ) for these editions. I'm 50/50 because I'm curious if the number for the first and fourth season could be seen as a subtitle?

Main Edition (Adult civilian and Special Editions)
This is where this edition could be very easy or prove difficult. Sorting out the main numbered editions. Seasons 2 - present have used a subtitle while season 1 was simply called Pinoy Big Brother. ABS-CBN retroactively added a subtitle to the first season here.

Option 1
The subtitle for the first two seasons are "Season 1" and "Season 2" respectively. Since WP:NCTV guidelines say that the naming convention must be the same across all articles I feel we should move "Season 1" and "Season 2" out of the disambiguation and make it the subtitle. This will rectify, in the easiest way, the naming issue with Pinoy Big Brother.

Option 2
Alternatively we could move them all to align to WP:NCTV's house of style however could experience a RM similar to the UK articles that went off track. I really don't want to go through that again if possible lol. I also included notes on the subtitles and why each season has its name for those interested. I have these explanations hidden as they don't impact the move discussion at hand.

Like I mentioned earlier I'm more in favor of turning season one and two's disambiguation into their subtitle which would match seasons three - present. It also aligns with how ABS-CBN treat the first two seasons and would be the easiest option in my opinion. Overall I would prefer not to move this edition as the subtitles for season 3-present are very recognizable in the Philippines and we should keep that in mind as they would be the primary reader of these articles.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    20:17, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

In progress
These discussions have been moved here as they have WP:RM that are currently on-going to resolve naming issues between WP:BIGBRO and WP:NCTV. Once completed these discussions will be moved up to the completed section and archived if the move is successful or if the outcome determines the current naming convention is correct. If the WP:RM is closed as unsuccessful the discussion will be restored back to its original position on the talk page. This section should be left here even when blank.

Big Brother (Bulgarian TV series)
Howdy Gonnym, I plan on starting a move request for the main series articles for the Bulgarian version. Based on what I can find (and it seems you reached a similar conclusion) that the season number seems to be part of the name. I'm just unsure about the disambig part I was thinking of proposing a move to Big Brother 1 (Bulgarian TV season) for example and I noticed you had Big Brother 1 (Bulgarian season) in the table. I thought before I proposed a move we could chat about it.

For VIP Brother that one is pretty clear that the broadcaster didn't include numbers or years in the title until later on in the run so I think the standard WP:NCTV convention would be good there and would be an easy move. I'm unsure about their All-Stars spin-off since they only used years as part of the name for the first two seasons then dropped that afterwards.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  05:54, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I think we should leave the numbered seasons til the end and first finish the non-numbered ones as they are easier to deal with. The numbered ones if kept, should pass first a discussion at NCTV to see what the preferred style of disambiguation is. If the All Star seasons used years for 2 out of 5 seasons, then they should have the normal NCTV version. The lead can say what the official name was for those 2 years that did have the year attached. --Gonnym (talk) 07:10, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay I will just move forward with VIP Brother then for now and circle back to the All-Stars version before we tackle the main series.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  09:27, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I can't remember which RM discussion had this issue and I don't know if it passed. - do you remember which discussion it was that that had "( season)" or something like that? --Gonnym (talk) 11:22, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I do not. It's situations like this where it would be useful if RM stats could be gotten properly "working", as you could just fire that up and get it to list all the RMs an editor has participated in... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:45, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I remembered now, it wasn't a RM, it was the discussion about the disambiguation issues with plays/episodes, so not helpful. Anyways, Alucard, I think we need to test this out at RM and see how it works, as really if keeping the number outside the disambiguation is chosen, this is the only style option. --Gonnym (talk) 16:28, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Just a friendly notice that VIP Brother season articles are up for move discussion. Thanks   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    03:52, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

All Stars / Most Wanted
Not too sure how to handle this one here seems there was a name change with Bulgaria's All Stars edition. I'm not sure if this is a reboot of their All Stars format or a continuation. To me it seems like a continuation all but in name. So for the 2017 season I found this article which reading it (through Google Translate) seems like a twist (hence the name change) but also the translated version implies its a reboot of the All Stars format. Then I found this article from the broadcaster Nova which when translated says "... on Nov. 5, the House will accept its new All Stars Roommates." This article states that after the tenth season of VIP Brother a new season of "Big Brother All Stars" will start right after it. Now what actually premiered was a second Most Wanted season. So I'm totally confused if the two "Most Wanted" seasons are the fifth and sixth Bulgarian All Stars seasons or if the re-naming actually started a new numbering pattern (i.e. season 1, season 2).   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    06:45, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
 * That is a good question. I'll try and see what I can find. --Gonnym (talk) 09:42, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Big Brother Family
The name Big Brother Family is correct and is also the only season of this format around the world so no other disambiguation is needed. From what I remember this was referred to as their fifth main season at the time but I can't find any sources backing that up today. In any case that would have been rendered pointless because Nova retconned this in 2015 when they brought back the civilian edition for another season which in turn made this a spin-off season. This article from June 2015 states that the program returned after seven years for the fifth season. At that point in time it was seven years ago that the fourth main season had aired in Bulgaria.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    06:45, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Back to action
- so what's our next move request? Let's start clearing these out. --Gonnym (talk) 10:36, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Except in controversial or disputed cases I'm forgoing the WP:RM process and going to WP:BOLD mode here to move this along. In the case of the German adaptation the sources don't support the current naming so I'm going to go ahead and move them and source the parent article appropriately. Are we good with Bigg Boss articles?  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  06:40, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I think we already finished the Bigg Boss moves last time. --Gonnym (talk) 07:06, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay good I'm in the process of moving the German articles once that's done I'm gonna take a look at your master list to see what non-controversial moves are left. I'm leaving the American, British and Spanish for last since they would defiantly be the most disputed (especially the first two).  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  07:10, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Germany is complete I'm currently looking at what is left and compiling a final roadmap starting with the easiest to our crowing achievements the infamous numbers and years. Once we have settled on the final plan of action I'm sure we can knock the rest out easily doesn't look like we have much left to do here.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  09:08, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok, I went over the list and updated the pages we fixed. We didn't do the Bigg Boss seasons for most of them, as we stopped after the series name discussion. --Gonnym (talk) 09:37, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Roadmap - Part 1
Here is my proposal for a final roadmap for the remaining editions based on your master list Gonnym. Let me know what ya think and what should be changed.

Notes on Part 1

 * Brazil - done.
 * Canada - Big Brother (Quebec TV series) - "Quebec" is problematic. This should go through RM as either stay like this which is against NCTV or go with Big Brother (2010 Canadian TV series) and Big Brother (2013 Canadian TV series).
 * Italy - done.
 * Arab - done.
 * India - done.
 * Thailand - done.
 * Slovenia - if there are no English sources, we have no choice but to leave it, so done.
 * Portugal - are those separate series or seasons 4 and 7? Secret Story (Portuguese TV series) lists them all in the VIP place.
 * Serbia - agree with merge.
 * Australia - agree with merge.
 * China - agree with merge.
 * Israel - hold this to the end as we might get new information until we finish on the next season and see what the sources call it, either season 2 or season 10 (i think).
 * Czech - moved, and done.
 * Nigeria, Angola & Mozambique, Spain - on hold.
 * Moved Spain and Israel to Roadmap #3   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    13:20, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Notes on Part 2

 * Main series - WP:CONSISTENCY asks for all titles in a series to be titled the same. Since we can't do that for seasons 1 and 2, we'd have to change the others. The lead will still say their name but the title would be (season x).
 * Main series split articles - I think a lot of what is the problem with Big Brother articles is that they just don't follow any other TV guideline. In this situation, the day-by-day breakdown does not follow MOS:TVPLOT which says a limit of 200 characters per episode, while at best, we have 200 characters per day (which is made of several episodes). If the plot were cut down to follow the guidelines and only list the important pieces of information, I'll bet the page would not need to be split.
 * Celebrity - I'll look at this again.
 * Teen series - Agree with (season x) and mentioning the name in the lead.

Well with most Big Brother seasons except for the American and Canadian versions they air episodes daily in the case with the fourth season they actually had the contestants divided between two houses and actually aired an afternoon set and primetime set of episodes. So there will be a lot of days that would have a cap of 400 characters instead of 200 because of this I need to research this a bit more to see how long the dual house lasted but based on the nomination table it lasted about 113 days. Which means this season most likely aired over 200 episodes. It looks like the sixth season was designed to be two parts and when they did the chronology sections they look smaller because they didn't recap every episode/day. But to be honest with most reality shows I usually don't see the 200 character cap being followed that often as most recap all competitions.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  19:51, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Really? episodes air daily? In Israel they air 2 episode a week only. --Gonnym (talk) 19:53, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Yup Big Brothers original format called for episodes to air daily and most countries follow this. You will find that most versions especially the older ones like Spain, British, Italy, Philippines still do to some extent. The UK's recent season for example airs six per week only skipping Saturdays. The seventh season of Pinoy Big Brother actually aired five episodes a week last year skipping weekends. Israel is an odd-ball airing a reduced amount of episodes/week especially airing less than the North American versions. Also most countries still have their live Internet feeds and this provides another component to the show that other reality shows don't have. With Big Brother articles by using "Days" instead of "Episodes" this allows the articles to stay updated with the pace of the live feeds instead of waiting for the episode to air on TV. Also each broadcast episode places timestamps like "Day 31" so its easy to align the Wikipedia chronology to the episodes anyway.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪ ' 03:09, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Added the upcoming 8th season Pinoy Big Brother: Otso to the list for now I placed it with the special editions. Now as far as WP:BIGBRO guidelines is concerned the article being in existance now is okay because there are promos airing on TV and on social media for the season. I'm not sure if there is a notability guideline for TV seasons I'm unaware of here.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  04:01, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Wow. I didn't know other countries aired it more than twice a week. For me twice was a lot! We also have the 24/7 live stream channel and internet feeds, and also daily morning shows that show clips of the day and talk about it, but those aren't the main episodes. I guess I'll post on the TV talk page and ask them what they think. Not sure about the guideline on when a TV show is notable, I don't think there is one like the film project does. This is the closest I can find WP:TVSHOW. --Gonnym (talk) 15:41, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah WP:BIGBRO has experimented with different ways on how to deal with this over the years. The American version have tried straight prose which you can see here with the first season which initially aired five episodes per week before switching to six episodes per week. Starting with the seventeenth season it was suggested we try using the Episode table similar to Survivor. Then with the eighteenth and nineteenth seasons somehow this monstrosity was born so I suggested this compromise which was used with the twentieth season. The original long standing style was a weekly summary table which can be seen here (from my understanding this didn't comply with MOS) outside of the North American editions trying to bring the Big Brother articles more in line with some sort of established MOS others want to stick with the outdated styles.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  17:30, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Roadmap - Part 3
That's everything I have after looking over the list so far the first part would probably be the quickest to get through then the Pinoy Big Brother articles. The third part really depends on the consensus on the numbers/years. I really don't want to continue on with researching the editions in Part 3 just for a consensus to go against Portugal's Secret Story and force those articles to use the default WP:NCTV guidelines if that makes sense.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  13:15, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Notes on Part 3

 * Bigg Boss Tamil - the seasons can't be titled as you proposed as they need to follow the series name, so "Bigg Boss Tamil (season #)".
 * Bigg Boss Marathi - agree.
 * UK - seems that adding the number is pure WP:OR by wikipedia editors, so the (series #) style should be used.
 * Bigg Boss Telugu - on hold.
 * Big Brother (Bulgarian TV series) - on hold.
 * Big Brother (Finnish TV series) - on hold.
 * Gran Hermano (Spanish TV series) - on hold.
 * US - on hold.
 * Opps about Tamil I meant "Bigg Boss Tamil (season #)" my bad.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  21:09, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Then agree with that. --Gonnym (talk) 21:11, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Survivor Greece
So, have we figured out to do with the Survivor Greece suite of articles?... This is an odd one as there were three seasons, and then what looks like a layoff for the better part of a decade(!), and then a "revived" series with seasons in 2017 and 2018. I literally have no idea what to do with the 2017 and 2018 season articles, because I'm not even clear on what they were called!... Pinging to this as well. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:06, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Haven't looked at any Survivor articles yet, but with any reality series, it seems editors tend to lump them all together into 1 series for some reason. I though think we need to see what the local sources call them. If the new seasons were called "season 1 and 2" then those can't be continued with the previous numbering. --Gonnym (talk) 22:22, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
 * This will need some investigating for sure. I don't watch Survivor much so this will be new territory for me. Also unlike with Big Brother related articles where the foreign Wikipedias were able to provide some insight (i.e. better reliable sources, clearer naming conventions, etc.) don't expect that here. It seems that Greece Wikipedia took English Wikipedia articles about their version of Survivor and ported them over with little to no changes.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  23:22, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
 * So.. y'all not gonna like this but you may want to take a deeper look at the international Survivor articles than just Greece and Israel. I just skimmed through some of them and found that several editions that don't comply with WP:NCTV. Seems like only the American & New Zealand version is in compliance so far.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  09:41, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

First numbered edition to go through RM
So I'm still going through Gonnym's master list trying to make sure all other loose ends are tied up before we proceed to the numbered editions. However I was thinking about which numbered edition to put through first in an RM to test out the waters and I think the best option would be the main seasons of Secret Story (Portuguese TV series). I think Gonnym has suggested the Bulgarian version be the first edition to be put through an RM around 11/20/18 however I think that version may not work out as well and could work against the goal we are trying to accomplish. I can forsee the Bulgarian version being picked apart just to support the standard Big Brother (Bulgarian season #) style without addressing the main issue. Here are the three big main reasons why I think this:

The only issue I can forsee is if we try an RM to move Secret Story 1 (Portugal) → Secret Story 1 (Portuguese season) is someone suggesting we move all the Portuguese Secret Story articles to Secret Story: Casa dos Segredos to avoid disambiguation here. However I don't think that would be an issue to overcome as per WP:ENGLISH and we can find reliable sources to support Secret Story # as common short form names that is just as recognizable as the long name.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    07:21, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I think you are right to start with Secret Story. Not sure if someone will suggest that or not. --Gonnym (talk) 09:45, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Probably not but you never know with this place lol.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    10:32, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

South Africa
So the first run of the program was known as Big Brother South Africa according to archive of the official site and this article. I'm thinking we may need to split off the part about Big Brother Mzansi into Big Brother Mzansi and rename Big Brother (South African TV series) or leave the name be and re-word the article so it can cover both Big Brother South Africa and Big Brother Mzansi. Not sure which option would be best here.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    10:31, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Last stretch
So now that Albania has a RM in the works that is pending all that is left is some of the regional Indian seasons, Bulgaria, Israel and the Philippines. Here are my thoughts on some that is left.


 * Big Brother (Swiss TV series) can be left at its current title or moved to Big Brother Schweiz since that is the official name of this adaption. Big Brother (Swiss TV series) satisfies WP:UE while Big Brother Schweiz satisfies WP:NATURALDIS, both satisfies WP:NCTV. So its just a matter of preference here at en~Wiki I think. Also I haven't found any English sources about this edition.
 * Gran Hermano Dúo is a new Spanish spin-off not connected to their other spin-offs. This one is named correctly as per logo on article, sources and what I have found in the Spanish press.
 * Big Brother Second Life was real and that was its official title. Here is the website via Wayback Machine copyrighted by Endemol. This article has the full name as well and a BBC article about the virtual program.
 * For the regional Indian editions that only have one season I say we move them in accordance with WP:NCTV. Another RM can be opened at a later date if the broadcaster adds a number to the second season. For Bigg Boss Telugu we leave them with their current names since the second season has a number.
 * South Africa - Instead of moving the parent article Big Brother (South African TV series) to Big Brother South Africa a re-write for now maybe in the best interest to clarify there was the original Big Brother South Africa and the reboot Big Brother Mzansi and allow the current article to serve as the parent for both the original and reboot. We don't have enough information to spin the original series out of this article from the rebooted version. The first season of the original version was known as Big Brother South Africa official website. From what I can gather during the second season the show was known as Big Brother South Africa overall with the second season known as Big Brother 2 BB2 Official Website. According to this article Celebrity Big Brother (South Africa) was simply known as Celebrity Big Brother.

I'm breaking Israel and the Philippines into their own sections as they need more thorough discussion.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    17:46, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Pinoy Big Brother's first season
I didn't make up the name for Pinoy Big Brother: Season 1 the broadcaster retroactively calls this season that to distinguish it from other seasons. Its in the source in the lead sentence I added to the article. Its just for all seasons with subtitles they don't include a semi-colon.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    01:43, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I see, ok then. --Gonnym (talk) 13:56, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

April updates
Ok, so an updated road-map to what we have left:

--Gonnym (talk) 14:03, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) Step 1
 * 2) Convert old sidebars to the infoboxes (if TfD passes).
 * 3) Add the missing infoboxes to series articles that need them (marked in read).
 * 4) Finish the last handful of article renaming.
 * 5) Split articles which hold both series and season information into stand-alone articles OR to reduce the season information to a summary.
 * 6) Rename categories and templates.
 * 7) Step 4:
 * 8) Fix category structure.
 * 9) Add images to categories.
 * 10) Optional: Fix file names to a more standard naming style.