User talk:Goodandevil/Archive 1

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Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: &#126;&#126;&#126;. Four tildes (&#126;&#126;&#126;&#126;) will produce your name and the current date. You should always sign talk pages, but not articles. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! Ann Heneghan (talk) 21:46, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
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This is my page. Buzz off.

you might want to sign your comments. anyone can edit any page on wikipedia. if you don't like what's on this page, you're welcome to delete any or all of it. nobody "owns" any page on wikipedia. Anastrophe 07:35, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Conduct:
You seem to be new here, so I'm going to give you the beinifit of the doubt that you havn't aquanted yourself with the ettiquette standards around here. So, to inform you, please do not remove comments from your talk page. On discussion pages, speak civiliy, politley, assume both compitence and good faith with your other editors. If you wish me to be more specific, I will do so.--Tznkai 17:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Talk pages are NOT for accusations of POV of editors.--Tznkai 17:31, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Tznkai is correct - please limit your additions to the talk pages to actual suggestions for improving the article. Examples:
 * NOT a helpful suggestion:
 * All (group) are biased! This article needs lots of work.


 * IS a helpful suggestion:
 * I have found reason to belive (this specific source) is biased. (Link to ref). This source (link) appears to be more neutral. Thoughts?

KillerChihuahua?!? 17:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

WARNING: WP:3RR
You are in violation of the three revert rule. Continue, and you will be reported and blocked.--Tznkai 17:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

What you are doing is clearly an attack that is not founded within wikipedia rules for discussion pages. I have noted bias. I have made suggestions for improvements. You do not want them on the page for some reason. Your attitude is truly amazing. Goodandevil 17:49, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Noting editor bais is in no way what article discussion pages are for.--Tznkai 18:00, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Bias of edits is due to editor bias. When no user names are used, generic discussion of a general bias in an articel is precisely what talk pages are for.  Your logic is quite twisted to not allow discussion of article bias in a particular article and its causes in the article talk page. I will Rfc if you continue to delete my pertinent comments from the talk page. I have already posted a vandalism in progress warning on the appropriate page noting your repeated disruptive deletions. Goodandevil 18:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I suggest you review the relivent policies before you start dragging admins in. You won't like the result.--Tznkai 18:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Abortion
If you discuss things on the talk page, and allow a reasonable time for fact-checking and discussion, you will find the editors on Abortion are a very nice, intelligent, NPOV group. Reverting, vandalizing, entering data for which there is no consensus and considerable disagreement, deliberately entering inflammitory phrasing gets attention, but it does not help improve the article nor Wikipedia.

How can we help you to learn the ropes on how to do this, and how to avoid violating policy as you have been doing? Thanks - KillerChihuahua?!? 17:13, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikiquette
Please respect the fact that things sometimes take longer than you'd like, and don't violate our standards of civility and politeness any further.--Tznkai 17:14, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Stop being pests. If Cyde wants to leave a polite message, I invite him to do so. Goodandevil 20:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I love you. --Cyde Weys votetalk 21:26, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Clyde, this is a violation of WP:TOE. Herostratus 02:18, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Kwanzaa
Wikipedia is not your soapbox against Kwanzaa. Stop adding in blatantly POV attacks against Kwanzaa. If you can't edit in an NPOV fashion, leave the article alone. --Cyde Weys votetalk 15:47, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

My talk page will NOT include personal attacks against me in violation of wiki policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goodandevil (talk • contribs)

It's not a personal attack. It's a warning. --Cyde Weys votetalk 16:00, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

(or snarky comments after such attacks are removed). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goodandevil (talk • contribs)

Sorry, but the warning needs to stay visible so any admins dealing with the Kwanzaa article will know you were previously warned about it. --Cyde Weys votetalk 16:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Do not remove warnings placed on your talk page by other editors (especially admins). Further removals will be considered blanking vandalism and could lead to you being blocked. --Syrthiss 16:10, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Please identify what in Cyde's post could possibly be considered a personal attack. Thanks - KillerChihuahua?!? 16:18, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Stop removing warnings from your talk page. See Syrthiss above. -Kyd 22:16, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I reiterate. Thank you. -Kyd 23:31, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

vandalism
Vandalism will not appear on my talk page. Polite and respectful comments are encouraged. Goodandevil 22:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


 * In what way are warnings about potential violations of Wikipedia policy "vandalism" or "disrespectul?" The reasonable way to address this would be to explain why you feel that these warnings are "vandalism," "disrespectful," "impolite," and a "personal attack." Blanking the warnings is not a solution. It is most definitely vandalism. It might also be considered impolite and disrespectful to other users, who are trying to resolve disputes through diplomacy, as it is an obvious attempt to stymy discussion of the matter. -Kyd 22:32, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

kwanzaa
Wonderful - you folks are ensuring the Kwanzaa page is politicially correct and avoids the fact that many people have reached the very rational conclusion that the whole idea is problematic and divisive. Of course others find Kwanzaa to be wonderful. But some of you wish to paint Kwanzaa as virtually controversy-free. You won't even follow the wikipedia policy about POV tags. Amazing. Wikipedia has serious creidibility problems - and now I know why. Goodandevil 23:16, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Perhaps if you provided some citations to avoid the NOR issue, and discussed on the talk page, you would find a better reception for your edits. As it is, you violate consensus, you remove verifiable sources, you edit from your POV exclusively, and make unsubstantiated claims. KillerChihuahua?!? 23:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Your recent 3RR violation on Kwanzaa
I've reported your recent 3RR violation on WP:AN/3RR. Please note that 3RR is an electric fence. This means that even if you are right, it is never appropriate to revert four times in 24 hours. It's generally considered more correct to let the force of your arguments on the article's talk page convince other editors to take your side. Kind regards, Nandesuka 23:12, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

3RR is an electric fence for people who have POVs that admins don't like. Did you zap the others who were reverting - such as Cyde? Goodandevil 23:18, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I stopped as soon as I was warned. You did not.  Hence the "zap".  --Cyde Weys votetalk 23:19, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Where were you warned? I don't find it on your talk page. And you issue edicts here as if you know all the rules - so why did you need a warning to being with? Did you not kno about 3RR? Seems like excuse making by people who share a POV. You folks are so very transparent. Goodandevil 23:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I was warned exactly where you were, on the Kwanzaa talk page. And I do know the rules - sometimes, though, I will follow WP:IAR to deal with issues of article integrity.  --Cyde Weys votetalk 23:27, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Had I been the one who noticed first, I likely would have blocked both you and Cyde first, and asked questions later. I'm known as a bit of a hardass that way.  But generally admins give each other lattitude to deal with things, and since Freply graciously let you both off with a warning, I wouldn't overrule that.  The fact that you were unwise enough to continue reverting after being warned is entirely your own fault. Nandesuka 23:22, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * For the record, you are not a hardass, you simply seem hard-headed. To revert the obviously unnecessarily wordy opening of the "contoversy" setion is absurdity almost as funny as "I Love Lucy". You did it just to spite me. It really shows me that you dpn't really want a good article - but you do want to control the article. Goodandevil 23:30, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Freply basically legitimized the POV tag with his comment. Again, the transparency of many eidtors is readily apparent. Goodandevil 23:32, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


 * What's their point? Is it that Kwanzaa is real is absolute NPOV and Kwanzaa is a hoax is deleted on sight?
 * Has anyone written a "X says Kwanzaa is a hoax because Y (published in Z)" section yet? patsw 02:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


 * No, in fact that's a main problem. G&E deletes sourced verifiable content, inserts what is apparently original research, fails to provide cites or sources, and is being terribly disruptive. All G&E has said on talk so far basically boils down to "this article is POV, my edits are better" and "the POV tag stays". Not terribly constructive. KillerChihuahua?!? 02:43, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps RfC?
Hi Goodandevil. You don't know me, but could I suggest that you take the Kwanzaa dispute to WP:RFC? I think that would be more appropriate in this case than going through the Vandalism reporting procedure. Herostratus 04:33, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Query
Hi Goodandevil. Listen, got a question: are you user Notwithstanding on freerepublic.com? Thanks! Herostratus 08:25, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

"vandalism"
Goodandevil, hi. I just wanted to give you a link to Vandalism. If you read that page, you'll note that the word "vandalism" is defined rather strictly here. Pro-Lick is wrong to refer to your talk page edits as vandalism, and you are just as wrong to describe his edits that way. What we're dealing with here is a talk page content dispute, some structuring issues, and a failure to dialogue about suggested changes rather than just making them. I think we've also got some unfamiliarity with Wikipedia policy, practice and culture floating around, so let's all be careful to avoid escalation of rhetoric. Thanks for your consideration. -GTBacchus(talk) 18:51, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. I did notice that (and inserted the parenthetical comment). Good 18:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Re:Pro-Lick's removal of talk page comments
See User talk:DonaNobisPacem - I was dealing with the same thing a few days ago on Pro-Lick's page......I've run into this before, and unfortunately most Wikipedians seem to take the stance "It's his talk page, so......" If it comes up to an admin issue, the history can always be checked to note your warnings/advice. I have to agree with GT in "Venting", in that I am more worried if he is removing comments and such from article talk pages. As a side note, there was one instance when I preserved another's talk page conversation on MY talk page for the same reason (they were deleting them), just to have it accessible/visible.DonaNobisPacem 17:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Pro-Lick's talk page
Hi, Goodandevil. I've seen what's going on at Pro-Lick's talk page. He's obviously completely in the wrong to describe your messages as vandalism. However, I don't think you'll gain anything by continuing to post and re-post messages there. He's also deleting or modifying messages from others. Once a message has been sent, it's in the history, and if he's the one who removes it (no matter how rudely) you know at least that he has seen it, and there's evidence for later, in case it's needed. I'd suggest sticking to the article talk page. There are some very nice, very fair Wikipedians there, GTBacchus being one, and if you make your points there, with references, etc., and just ignore the rudeness of Pro-Lick and others like him, you'll find that there are many people from the pro-life and pro-choice POVs who are willing to collaborate with you and work together to find a wording that is truly NPOV. That, at least, has been my experience here at Wikipedia. Cheers. AnnH ♫ 18:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Pro-lick keeps removing polite fair comment from his talk page
I have warned you many times via the summary (which is very visible in history and when you look at your watchlist) that your comments are not welcome on the page. After reading your first comment, the rest have been reverted immediately without reading. Unless I indicate otherwise, that will not change. That means do not reply there. Here, you can reply on and on and be assured I won't care or read a word.--Pro-Lick 01:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Had my comments been mean or an attack, I would consider heeding you warning. Since my posts to your talk page are the very type of posts that belong on a talk page (polite, and warning about unhelpful editing behavior), I will continue to replace them every single time you remove them. Good 08:53, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I really think it would be better to leave it if he removes them. Yes, it's abominbably rude to remove polite comments, and he is certainly behaving as a problem editor, but it's just getting involved in an unnecessary edit war if you keep replacing comments on his talk page. I remember this kind of thing was discussed at one of the administrators' noticeboards a few months ago, and someone said that if an editor removes warnings etc. from his own talk page, we know that he has seen them (and have evidence for later, if it's needed), so putting them back serves no purpose except hassling him. Believe me, several administrators are aware of his behaviour. By the way, I thought I told you this last night, but I can't find my post so maybe I didnt't &mdash; he has started altering your user page, which is a very strange action for someone who deletes other people's polite comments from his own talk page. I reverted to your last version, as I was sure that his changes would not be welcome. Please let me know if you need any help, but please consider dropping the battle on his talk page. If you have reason to send him a new message, and you think it's important, fine. But if you keep restoring posts that he has deleted it just looks as if the two of you are squabbling. Regards. AnnH ♫ 09:23, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with Ann. Your message is sent; don't worry about it.  You gave Pro-Lick some good advice, from someone who's been there, and it was noted by those of us who are paying attention. Let's just focus on the article, and if Pro-Lick wants to keep digging... -GTBacchus(talk) 15:30, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

It's cool...
...I'm gonna "see talk", but thanks for the reminder. :) No, I don't mind you reverting that version, but please do note that I've added it to the current discussion, and please do leave your feedback there.  Cheers. -GTBacchus(talk) 17:49, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Partial-birth abortion
Your edits are not going to be allowed until you come to Talk and justify them. This is a reasonable request and your continued refusal to honor it is a sign of bad faith. Alienus 17:25, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I want you to understand that you are already in violation of WP:3RR. As a courtesty, I'm going to give you an opportunity to undo your last reversion.  If you don't, I'll simply report you and have you banned.  A quick look at my ban log shows that this is a real occurance and it applies to people just like you. Alienus 08:49, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you are inviolation of the 3rr policy. You are simply reverting non-consesnsus langauge. I am at least trying to make edits based on concenrs of other editors. Good 08:54, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't believe that I am. I looked at the history and my four reverts were spread out over the course of a few days.  Yours fell within a single 24-hour period, clearly violating the rule.
 * The fundamental problem is that you see thing as a matter of good vs. evil with yourself as the former. Such black and white thinking demonizes your opponents and makes cooperation impossible.  To you, I'm some sort of eager baby-murderer, so no rules apply.  Well, guess what?  Rules apply.
 * You've forced me to report you Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR. Are you happy now? Alienus 09:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

3RR violation at Partial-birth abortion
Hi, you violated the three-revert rule on Partial-birth abortion. I have disabled your editing permissions for 24 hours. Please read our guide on dispute resolution during the time you are unable to contribute to Wikipedia. Feel free to return after your block expires, but take your differences to the talk page and please refrain from edit warring. Cheers, —Ruud 12:27, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid you did violate the rule, as partial reverts also count. The "fourth revert" may not actually have been a revert, but the fifth one was a partial revert, as you reinserted "commonly" and "descriptive term". It's still counted as a revert even if you incorporate something else into it so that it's not identical to a previous version.


 * By the way, you can still edit your talk page while you're blocked. And it might be a good idea to try to edit a few articles on subjects you care less about when you come back, without necessarily disappearing from the subjects you do care about. People who are very pro-life or very pro-choice and edit only articles related to their POV can be taken less seriously, as it always looks as if they're here with an agenda. Even though I think almost everyone who knows me on Wikipedia is aware that I'm an obedient Catholic and am completely against abortion, I have an average or 2.3 edits per page, and I think that gives me more credibility in a way. It also helps to keep me from getting stressed over conflicts. :-) Anyway, you'll be back tomorrow, I hope. AnnH ♫ 16:36, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Just to be clear, you're quite welcome to return to Partial-birth abortion. I only ask that you avoid edit-warring and instead focus on talking about controversial changes in advance so as to determine if it has consensual support. I tried very hard to solve this without reporting you, and I'm unhappy that it came to that. I'd like to imagine that, rather than coming back angry and even less cooperative, you might consider that there are better ways to get your point across. If you're not ready to do that now, then perhaps Ann's suggestion might be wise, but I'm hoping that you're better than that. Alienus 21:51, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

invitation
I invite you to help us out at Christianity Knowledge Base. (unsigned by Nsandwich)


 * Nan may have a point in inviting you to a project that not only allows but requires pro-Christian bias. Then again, if you're capable of objectivity, you could just stick around here. Your choice. Alienus 00:58, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Violation
Your recent revert on Pro-life is in direct violation of the consensus and constitutes edit-warring. I will be counting your reversions with the goal of getting you banned again, this time for a bit longer. Alienus 23:14, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * You have started an edit war - again. And are now goading - again. You have reverted twice already. So the score is tied. I am counting. Meanwhile, go read the talk page.  Your POV insertion will not stand - I am quite certain of it. Good 23:24, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I will revert as often as I must to keep POV out of that article. I will also space my reverts so as to avoid 3RR violation. In the end, because the changes you support violate NPOV, they will be removed. It's a matter of when, not if. Alienus 23:37, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Uncivil
Your text at User_talk:Musical_Linguist, particularly the title, is uncivil]. Please control your temper when you're losing. [[User:Alienus|Alienus 23:35, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Given you recent highly uncivil comment on the pro-life talk page ("The question is not whether you will lose this battle, but how soon and with how much bloodshed. If you back away now, maybe you won't get banned again. Otherwise, this could get ugly"), I am not concerned in the least. In fact, it was your incivility that freed me up to state quite plainly that your nickers are in fact in a a twist. Good 23:39, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks
Hey, Good. Thanks for your support. Perusing your talk page, it is obvious that Alienus is obsessed with you. I don't know what you did to deserve that but ... I feel your pain! --Hyphen5 01:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Pro-Lick
Zoe indef blocked Pro-Lick and no one seems to mind at this point. JoshuaZ 15:12, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I was just coming to your page to tell you that. Also, see here and here. I wouldn't bother talking to him anymore. He's blocked, so he can't do any harm to the article except through sockpuppetting, and his socks will be blocked as well. So, since anything from a pro-life editor (or even a pro-choice editor who's not as pro-choice as Pro-Lick thinks he should be) will probably inflame him even more, I'd just keep away from him. I may leave something on his talk page, but it will be as an admin, leaving evidence for any other admin who may be looking into this. I won't leave any comments directly for him. No point in kicking someone who's down. Cheers. AnnH ♫ 15:20, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Abortion - First Paragraph
Hi G&E - I thought the new proposal was good - it takes into account the medical definition - which is, I have discovered, technically before viability (it is called "Late Term Abortion," not abortion, or "stillbirth," not miscarriage or spontaneous abortion, after viability. What the date of viability is is a matter of debate, but most of the medical sources I checked out gave 20 weeks - which is somewhat on the cautious, as opposed to liberal, side of viability). The most important thing I think the proposed definition though, is to demonstrate that for the majority of usage (in religion, law, and everday speech - hence my insertion of the term "common parlance"), they think of abortion to be the induced procedure, at any point of gestation, and as the death of a fetus (regardless of which side in the argument they take). I thought this actually offers MORE than the current definition, in accurately representing diversity of views - even amongst the medical community (b/c common parlance automatically includes the everyday speech of doctors, outside of their medical definitions). So that's why I've decided to work with this version - it actually might stick, includes key phrases that I think represent NPOV, and represents the diversity of views, in a short paragraph. Input? DonaNobisPacem 05:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * We'll see. How did you make the sudden "discovery"? We know that there are plenty of medical definitions that use the word death and don't mention viability at all.  I just see the opening paragraph becoming bloated or edited so that the opening line remains and any colloquial definition is edited out for brevity or some other made up reason. Pro-abortionists don't want there to be an honest presentation of facts. They always lose when that happens. ____G_o_o_d____ 05:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It wasn't a sudden discovery - when I googled abortion definitions, I rejected any definition that was from a common dictionary, etc, and tried to focus on known medical dictionaries. In these, I found abortion tended to be defined as before 18-20 weeks, or alternatively as before viability - they would then define late term abortion and stillbirth as after 18-20 weeks, or again, after viability.  I didn't find any (recent) medical sources that actually used death in their definition - although some, as I quoted ages ago, would use it later on in describing causes of miscarriage/stillbirth, or in statistics, etc.  Did I list the sources I used - no, as I am spending too much of my exam time here already ; )  Don't worry, I'm not abandoning my previous position, just trying to get a definition both sides will feel is worth defending in various regards, which means it might actually stay - particularly because this is getting all around support so far, save for a few, rather than a narrow margin of majority. DonaNobisPacem 06:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Abortion consensus
Don't enforce your own consensus. - RoyBoy 800 05:42, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Good, please don't edit war the introductory paragraph. We have quite a strong consensus behind the current version, let's try not to get the page protected again, ok? -GTBacchus(talk) 05:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

There has been no actual consensus voiced - certainly a poll will bear out a consensus if it exists. Besides, Royboy abused his admin status by changing the opening during a freeze. ____G_o_o_d____


 * Alright, we'll have a poll. Please don't edit war while it's going on.  The worst thing that can happen is the article is wrong for a few days.  That's so much better than reversions. -GTBacchus(talk) 05:48, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * You may wish to talk to Royboy about that.____G_o_o_d____ 05:50, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It takes two to tango, Good. The only winner in an edit war is the one who walks the hell away.  Royboy shouldn't revert either, but his wrong doesn't make your wrong a right.  Please don't edit war for any reason, ever.  Ever.  Royboy, please just leave it, the worst thing that happens is the article is wrong for a few days, which is much better than reversions. -GTBacchus(talk) 05:54, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps that is technically correct; but a consensus was voiced. As such I was editing in good faith. I'm unsure what a poll would accomplish; but by all means. - RoyBoy 800 05:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * There's a strong consensus so any attempt to damage the first paragraph will be reverted. This isn't edit-warring; it's enforcing the consensus.  Edit-warring is what Evil does when he refuses to accept that consensus. Alienus 07:35, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Alienus, it's edit warring no matter how right you are. It takes getting used to, I know. -GTBacchus(talk) 08:06, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

This is one of those points that we disagree on. Alienus 08:10, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
 * True, dat. -GTBacchus(talk) 08:16, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up
Sorry I was not up to speed with this. I have been fighting a battle for NPOV in Post-abortion syndrome. --WikiCats 12:12, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * A battle involving NPOV, anyhow. Whether you're fighting for or against it is, to be frank, debatable. Alienus 14:38, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
Removing the lead paragraph of abortion is vandalism. Alienus 14:36, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for registering your opinion.____G_o_o_d____

3RR on Abortion, first paragraph
Goodandevil, I'm going to block you for a 3RR violation now.
 * 1)
 * 2)
 * 3)
 * 4)

Why did you do that, silly? Try to adopt a more mature approach to editing after your block and never, ever, ever, ever edit war please refrain from edit warring in the future. -GTBacchus(talk) 19:09, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think this is the second block he's getting on the same article. Amazing. Alienus 19:03, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Most admins who are part of a debate do not jump in and make questionable blocks, as bacchus has done. This is very similar to Royboy sneaking in this major change during an article freeze. Apparently that is the favored tactic - use admin status to win when the intellectual argument fails. ____G_o_o_d____ 14:45, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * How is this block questionable, Goodandevil? You can't make a more blatant 3RR violation, and you've done it before.  I didn't even increase the block time from your last block, which would have been pretty standard.  I admit I was irritated when I blocked you, and I've moderated my language above accordingly, but I stand by the fairness of the block.  If someone violates the 3RR on the "other side", I'll be just as ready to block for that.  Since you've objected though, I've posted on the administrators' noticeboard and asked other admins to reveiw my action. -GTBacchus(talk) 15:15, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

No consensus for new abortion opening
8 would oppose the new opening as proposed.

7 would adopt the new opening as proposed.

Thus, there is no consensus to change the long-standing language of the opening. ____G_o_o_d____ 14:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Moving my comment: I have no problem with that - thanks for the notice on my talk page and comment on the page, much appreciated. KillerChihuahua?!? 12:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Latest round of Abortion edits
As usual you start with some decent edits, well explained by edit comments, but then stray into controvertial edits with no explanation. You know these are controvertial, so post them on the talk page. Otherwise we go round cleaning up your muddle of decent and unreasonable edits and it makes it hard to take any of them seriously. Just don't get carried away, |→ Spaully°τ 13:57, 11 April 2006 (GMT)

re:Rhetoric or reality?
It was more than just that one comment. I mean "hitman", "she wants a dead baby", "resource sponge", etc. This has nothing to do with the first paragraph. I'm glad you have an outlet for your rants, but please try to stay on topic. This may be a fault of mine, but like I said, if you tone down your emotional, partisan language, I might take you more seriously. But right now, you have failed to persuade me that the defining aspect of an abortion is the death of a fetus. But you have made it abundantly clear what you POV is. --Andrew c 00:33, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I am sorry. You gave a specific example of what you thought was over top rhetoric, and I produced evidence that the words you considered to be over the top pro-life rhetoric were the same as those uttered by a respected abortionist in sworn testimony during a federal trial. Allow me to pass on an obsrvation: the consistent preference for euphemisms indicates a discomfort with reality that is psychologically unhealthy.____G_o_o_d____ 00:39, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Umm... ok. Whatever. --Andrew c 00:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * You have a habit of pretending you are deaf or illiterate when your bluff is called. Why do you hide from the points I make - from the intellectual challenge? I always benefit from a good intellectual dialogue. You seem to turn tail and run whenever we get close to one.  I hope you will reconsider. I realize that you might know something I don't - or have ideas that I might benefit from.  You ought to try a similar approach.  ____G_o_o_d____
 * You throw emotional and politically charged arguments at me during a content dispute, and now you insult me. What do you want me to do? Argue back? I am not "pretnding I am deaf or illiterate", I am walking away from an argument. You may want to read WP:Is Not. Sorry to  ruffle your feathers. I hope we both can cool our jets and eventually work again towards consensus on the article.--Andrew c 01:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * You post a snide comment thinking you have proven a point, your comment is then shown to be demonstrably incorrect or off the mark, and then you pretend not to notice. Its kind of funny to watch because it is so predictable. ____G_o_o_d____ 01:33, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Re:Abortion Poll
I don't really have a strong preference either way. Anyway, I still voted. I hope that's on what you were requesting comment. -Severa | !!! 02:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, Severa, you were recruited by Goodandevil to help bias the vote. Thank you for your role in making the vote a complete and total joke that I will freely ignore. Alienus 03:38, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * That's a hell of a way to garner consensus. That attitude helps explain why your effort failed. ____G_o_o_d____ 07:18, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey G&E - thought you might get a kick out of this. Now back to my exams.....DonaNobisPacem 17:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Edit-warring again.
Do yourself a favor and stop edit-warring on partial-birth abortion. You do know that I am among a number of people who would report you for WP:3RR without delay and you know that you'll get banned even longer this time. Just give it up; you can't force your POV on us. Alienus 03:38, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Alienus, you should be familiar with being blocked for violating 3RR. ____G_o_o_d____ 07:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Not really
I made a mistake, but I don't see it as a "bad example". I believed a consensus was reached and was editing in good faith. I'm entirely aware of the rules regarding protection; but I thought the installation of the new paragraph was taking its sweet time. When Andrew c suggested it be implemented because it was at least better than the old version and would allow more users to see it for further input; I concurred and was bold. It had nothing to do with the protection, which I could have removed and then implemented the new paragraph as it could take weeks to finish discussion on the new version. (the current version looks pretty weak (ie. "associated") now that we have another version) When you reverted I initially resisted, but when I realized I had overstepped my privileges I backed off. But you did not; if I'm a "bad example" I'm sure as heck ain't the only one... as I don't see the purpose of putting back the old version who's consensus isn't exactly ironclad to begin with. - RoyBoy 800 12:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for reminding me that you, personally, did back off quickly. I can understand that it was just unintended bad timing (coincidence of the page freeze). ____G_o_o_d____ 13:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

slow edit war on pro-life
You keep adding this phrase into pro-life: "the current feminist view that abortion is a human right." However, there is an external link on the exact same article to Feminists for Life. It is much more accurate to associate this phrase with reproductive rights as opposed to feminism. I urge you to please stop reverting this phrase, or make a case for it on the talk page. Thanks.--Andrew c 03:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

You reverted so much POV language in your most recent edit! Stop bitching about an edit war, when your POV insertion is the major cause of it. ____G_o_o_d____ 05:08, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

This is a friendly reminder to stay civil. --Cyde Weys 05:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, telling someone to "butt out" is not appropriate either. If you do not want other people to involve themselves in your discussion, Wikipedia is not the place for you. There is no ownership of articles.  jaco plane  11:20, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I did not delete his comments, I made a blunt request. I now ask you to butt out, too. ____G_o_o_d____ 19:41, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Absolutely concur with Jacoplane. You were reminded to be civil by an administrator; your response is to tell him to "Butt out"? I think you need to take a brief time-out to examine your actions and motives here. This is highly inappropriate behavior on your part. KillerChihuahua?!? 12:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I will always feel free to tell any admin who butts in with a (useless cutsie patronizing "reminder") to butt out. The admin can ignore me if he wants to - as you and jacoplane have done. When someone keeps bitching, I will not shy away from stating so. You can keep coming here to post patronizing comments if you wish. I would think you might have better things to do - but if reminding me of the pecking order of wikipedia is that important to you, post away. Its your life. Why don't you alert all admins to post their views of my behavior here? It would be fun to see what they all have to say. ____G_o_o_d____ 19:41, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

POV
Your recent edits to Pro-life http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pro-life&diff=48232417&oldid=48230743, are highly POV. Please remember to review WP:NPOV. Thanks. &rArr;   SWAT Jester     Ready    Aim    Fire!  05:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Note, the diff I linked to was actually another user's reversion of your edits. &rArr;    SWAT Jester   [[Image:Flag_of_Iceland.svg|18px|]]  Ready    Aim    Fire!  05:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing - you and Alienus apparently do not know what neutrality is. ____G_o_o_d____ 10:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutrality <> agreeing with you. Just zis Guy you know? 10:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Warning
You are adding contentious text to the article on partial birth abortion. You know that your POV on this is not neutral. If you continue to remove content discussed ont he Talk page, and to add large chunks of POV, I will block you. You may not disrupt Wikipedia to make a point. Just zis Guy you know? 10:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I repeat: seek consensus before making controversial changes or you will be blocked for disruption. Just zis Guy you know? 15:11, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you just don't realize that the term PBA is the most common term for that type of abortion in the USA, where this abortion method is most often practiced. Doctros call it something else - IDX. Journalists and politicians call it PBA. First off, it is a term. Perhaps we can call it a lay term. But to call it a "non-medical" term is to imply that the default for most people when discussing abortion is to use medical terms. But that is not the case. Opening with "a non-medical term" is simply not neutral. It is a term used by most people for IDX. It is not a medical term. It was coined by legislators. Your POV is certainly influencing your efforts on this page - despite your claim to neutrality. I am not editing the article to favor any viewpoint. BUt you are. No consensus is needed to remove overt POV langauge. ____G_o_o_d____ 15:16, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It may be POV language, Good, but it's not blatantly so, and there are clearly editors who disagree that it's POV. Once editors voice concern with your edit, it's officially controversial, and repeatedly making it without seeking consensus is disruptive, as JzG says.  Without consensus we have edit war.  Edit war = bad. -GTBacchus(talk) 15:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

. This is for 24 hours. Your repeated removal of the phrase "non-medical" without any meaningful attempt to achieve consensus for this edit, which you know perfectly well to be contentious, is unacceptable, as both GTBacchus and I have informed you above. Just zis Guy you know? 22:50, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I am very disappointed that you come back from a block and pile straight back in to making tendentious edits with absolutely no attempt to engage in debate on the Talk page. Please do not do that. You know perfectly well by now that your POV is well wide of the centre ground, and your continued introduction of POV text to the article is not helping in any way. Just zis Guy you know? 08:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing tendentious about my new edits. Adding the date of the annual IDX number data simply corresponds to dating the comments of Fitzsimmons. Noting the source of the data simply alerts the reader to the potential bias of the data - and this data has always been publicly treated as suspect by advocates on the other side of the debate (which mainstream press accounts have noted) and was never asserted by AGI as anything more than a good guess by AGI. I am missing how those are contentious edits. I apologize that you were taken aback by them, but they cannot be labeled as POV insertion (as explained above and in my edit summaries). Please let me know the factual basis to remove any of my changes. ____G_o_o_d____ 10:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, your edits are tendentious, especially your relentless removal of the fact that PBA is a non-medical term, a change which very obviously goes against consensus. Note also that editorialising other poeple's comments, as you have done on this page, is unacceptable.  Just zis Guy you know? 10:54, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I have made a few small modifications - but the factual matters need to be included in the article. ____G_o_o_d____ 11:02, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Good, I'm sure you know it's considered rude to modify the comments of other editors - kind of like putting words in someone else's mouth. It seems to me that would include changing the text of the header on this section. Is it your intention to be rude? -GTBacchus(talk) 23:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

You have been blocked five times for WP:3RR violations, and you are about to violate WP:3RR in respect of editorialising comments by others on your talk page. If you do, a longer block will be the result. You need to shelve your strong feelings and send Mr. Ego to the timeout bench. Just zis <span style="border: 1px; border-style:solid; padding:0px 2px 2px 2px; color:white; background-color:darkblue; font-weight:bold">Guy you know? 11:01, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I will always feel free to edit headings on my own talk page ad infinitum. The edit I have made to the heading does not contain a personal attack or anything uncivil. It also keeps intact that the section contains a warning. You certainly must have better things to do than to keep watch and edit this heading on my talk page. The derisive patronizing comments you have left here are an indication that you are no paragon of civility. I will ignore your current silly threat. Wikipedia policy is not advanced or enhanced by you and Alienus making an issue of this. ____G_o_o_d____ 11:10, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * You do not have that freedom, you do not own this page; by convention you are allowed more latitude with your own talk page thasn elsewhere, but not to the point of editorialising other poeple's comments. And yes the edit is incivil, because I am not pro-abortion; you are merely repeating the common error of assuming that failure to agree 100% with your POV is equivalent to disagreeing 100%.  The world is not black-and-white like that.  You have also violated WP:3RR on this.  Your block will be extended to 48 hours.  Just zis <span style="border: 1px; border-style:solid; padding:0px 2px 2px 2px; color:white; background-color:darkblue; font-weight:bold">Guy you know? 11:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Your obsession with the header here on my user talk page is telling. My obsession is understandable - it is my talk page, after all. You certainly do have a lot of power. And you exercise it only when necessary. After all, what would happen if you weren't obsessed with this heading? Wikipedia and all it stands for could crumble.  ____G_o_o_d____ 15:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Your obsession with the header here on your user talk page is telling. My repeated reminders (echoed by others) that rewriting what other write is offensive, is understandable. The rouge admin cabal strikes again.  Just zis <span style="border: 1px; border-style:solid; padding:0px 2px 2px 2px; color:white; background-color:darkblue; font-weight:bold">Guy you know? 15:07, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

citing sources
I noticed when you cite a source, you simply add an external link to the source in the middle of the article. I appreciate your efforts to cite sources, which helps to keep WP:V. However, you should look to see if the article already has a citation style and try to mimic it. If not, you should at least enclose your citation in a tag, and make sure you have the article title, the author, source, and date information, in addition to the URL. There are a number of helpful templates to guide you in citing specific sources, such as Template:Cite web and Template:Cite news. Here are two more pages that should help you out: WP:REF and WP:REF/ES. I hope this helps, and feel free to ask me anything about this. --Andrew c 03:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Abortion/First_paragraph
Feedback please. - RoyBoy 800 04:11, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Abortifacient
You and I have encountered one another on talk pages for various abortion-related articles. I thought your input may be of use on the abortifacient article. Someone recently removed the whole section on drugs and other devices which prevent implantation. I think it should be there (and I recently put it back), but I could use some support. Anyway, thanks ahead of time for taking a look. <span style="border-left: 0px #505050 solid; border-right: 1px #505050 solid; color: #505050; background: #FFCCFF; font-weight: bold; font-variant: small-caps; font-size: 90%; line-height: 80%" class="nounderlinelink"> MamaGeek  TALK   CONTRIB    17:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Your IP edits
Hi, Good. I haven't seen you around much recently, but just this morning, I was looking at WP:AN/I, and I saw this discussion. Cheers. AnnH <b style="font-size:medium;">♫</b> 11:37, 8 July 2006 (UTC)