User talk:GourangaUK/Archive 4

Who is a Hindu ?
I have made major edits to this section in the Hindu article and referenced it heavily in order to (hopefully) prevent frequent unsourced POV insertions and edit-warring on the subject. I have also edited the previous etymology section and the intro. of the article, mainly to delete general commentary as well as topics that are now covered in the "Who is a Hindu ?" section. Can you please take a look at these sections now ? I hope you don't mind my possibly editing over some of your earlier additions. Abecedare 01:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * GourangaUK, what is happening with the article on Hindu? Looks like it is being lashed by a giant tsunami. Please review it, and please make sure that salient features of the article are not arbitrarily thrown out. Thanks.Kanchanamala 07:45, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Bhakti
I have worked on three history of India articles: Chalukya dynasty, Vijayanagara Empire, and Western Chalukyas. In only one of the articles was Bhakti even mentioned, saying the Bhakti devotional movement was active during this time (in Vijayanagara Empire).

In the Hoysala architecture article I am copy editing now (which is really on Hindu temples) Bhaki is not mentioned. The article described the deities the kings building the temples worshiped but says the kings did not discriminate and "encouraged pilgrims of different Hindu sects". That is how my article got started, as a substitute for sects.

My India: A History book (almost 600 pages) mentions the word Bhakti on 7 different pages, whereas Hinduism is discussed throughout the book. In discussing the period 300 to 500 AD, the author says: "Hinduism as a religion with specific doctrines and practices was still unrecognisable. Arugably, it still is."

In looking briefly at the Bhakti movement and Bhakti, it looked like the movement has very specific beliefs, for example in a "monotheistic god" and very specific practices. That is exactly opposite to what our articles are trying to convey. India was a crossroad for thousands of years and it's brilliance comes from it's constant exposure to other cultures and it's ability to be flexible and absorb new cultural idea. It has a history of religious tolerance in beliefs and practices.

I am not the author of the articles on India mentioned above but mainly copy edit them for FA status. The main editor is from India and gets so much grief over every religious word he uses and spends days politely explaining why a certain word is being used to other outraged users. He is always saying to me "We can't use that word because it is sometimes associated with X and Y may get offended. I don't want it questioned later". I do know that Bhakti can only be used to refer to that specific movement in the Indian articles I am involved in. Hopes this helps explain. Sincerely, --Mattisse 18:41, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Devotional
Maybe I can use another word and not devotional. I meant "devotional" in a general sense. And cult was the only alternative I could think of for sect. I often create explanatory articles (for Indian concepts that the general reader would not be familiar with) to satisfy FA editors and that is what I was doing here. I'll give the whole thing more thought in terms of name and content. Today though, I am on to Western Chalukyas full steam ahead. Sincerely, --Mattisse 19:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks !
Thanks Gouranga for the barnstar ! I really appreciate it. I would also like your help in improving the Hindu article, and protecting it from POV pushers and vandals, with the aim of getting it to at least GA status. Regards. Abecedare 00:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Image:MahaVishnu.jpg listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:MahaVishnu.jpg, has been listed at. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. meco 10:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Vish Ayengar
According to Vish Ayengar all the spiritual traditions of India are inspired by the Vedas. That precise statement made significant contribution to the article in Wikipedia which is supposed to present the tenets of Hinduism most accurately. From the website of Dr. Vishwanath Ayengar, it is obvious that this scholar has the credentials to write about Hinduism. "Indian Spiritual Traditions" has been published since 2001 in the electronic media which has now been another media for publication. Gouranga, I thought I should share with you my take in this matter because you are one person who can appreciate it. Thanks.Kanchanamala 02:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Jagannath Temple (Puri)
Yes, I am certainly willing to take a look at it and try. Also, I have not forgotten the devotional cult issue and will think of a better name and rewrite it when I have time. Right now the article it was written for is about to be accepted as FA, Hoysala architecture, but I don't want you to think I have forgotten about the issue. Sincerely, --Mattisse 12:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Links on Hoysala architecture
Every word and link on that page has been carefully thought out to avoid triggering vandalism and POV complaints as well as to satisfy FA editors and remain historically accurate and referenced. Since we have been through this before on the Hoysala empire article, we know what FA editors think is proper regarding the changes you made. Linking is a particularly sensitive issue with them - they want as few as possible and only links of a certain type. We are following their directions. I am requesting that you leave the article alone, at least until the review is finished. Changes of the type you made would be removed by the major editor in any event because of the increased chances of attractive vandals and POV complaints. Sincerely, --Mattisse 17:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Reading the FA review for the Hoysala architecture and the Hoysala empire articles. Especially on the empire article they were very explicit about linking in general and wording regarding Hinduism. Thanks! --Mattisse 17:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Use of IAST in articles
As I begin to work on the Narada Bhakti Sutra it occurs to me that it would be good to get your view on the use of IAST in articles. I notice that opinions vary about it. Personally I am a devout IASTarian, and find it almost impossible to break the habit of using IAST all the time for everything. I think if Wikipedia is ever to gain any credibility there is no way around IAST. So when I begin to work on the article, my reflex will be to put terms into IAST, at least on first use. Do you have a preference about this? If we can get on the same wavelength it may save time. Buddhipriya 21:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Yoga
Hi, This is a correct interpretation of the citation. Thought I'd let you know. Best wishes. Freedom skies 01:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Istha deva
Yes, Gouranga I now agree. Tulsidas considered Rama to be his Ishta-deva. I recall reading an incident in the Mahabharata, when Krishna assumed the form of Rama and asked Rukmini to dress like Sita in order to please Hanuman who visited them, whose Ishta deva, was of course Rama.

Thanks for the clarification.

Raj2004 22:39, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's the story: "Sri Krishna Gives Darshan as Sri Rama

In Treta Yuga, after the Rama Ravana War, Sri Rama had promised Anjaneya that He would grant Him darshan in the Dwapara Yuga. His elder brother Balram took pride in that he was elder to Sri Krishna and that he was an expert in handling weapons, particularly mace and plough. Satyabhama, wife of Sri Krishna, thought high of her beauty and believed that it was her beauty that lured Sri Krishna. Sri Krishna had wanted to put an end to the pride of both Balram and Satyabhama.

He sent Sage Narada and Balram to invite Anjaneya to His abode. When Balram introduced him as Balram (which means a strong Ram), Anjaneya became angry because no Ram was greater than His Lord Sri Ram. Balram was beaten by Anjaneya very badly. Balram ran away from Anjaneya but returned with an army only to be beaten up again by Anjaneya. He again ran away from Anjaneya. This time Sri Krishna asked Balram to go to Anjaneya and inform Him that Sri Rama wanted to meet Him. Hearing the name of Sri Rama, Anjaneya hugged Balram and asked for pardon for all the trouble given to him. He took Balram on His shoulders and proceeded to Dwaraka.

At Dwaraka, Sri Krishna asked Satyabhama to dress up as Sita Devi and be ready to meet Anjaneya. She dressed up adoring all kinds of ornaments but Sri Krishna, not satisfied, sent her back. He then asked Rukmini to give darshan to Anjaneya as Sita Devi. Hearing the name of Anjaneya, Rukmini became very happy. In her enthusiasm to meet Anjaneya, she did not wear any ornaments except for a kumkum tilak on her forehead. Anjaneya entered the room and found Sri Rama and Sita Devi in place of Sri Krishna and Rukmini.

from : http://www.vikraman.com/MaruthiPramanam.htm


 * - Thanks for the link. Regards, Gouranga(UK) 11:51, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome, Gouranga

Raj2004 00:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Ganesha Purana
The article Ganesha Purana you nominated as a good article has failed, see Talk:Ganesha Purana for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of said article. If you oppose this decision, you may ask for a review. Vassyana 09:49, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Unspecified source for Image:Vishnu07.jpg
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 * I have reverted. We need the real source so we could determine copyright status, and as far as I see, there is no source listed on frwiki. - NYC JD (objection, asked and answered!) 12:03, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * There's no telling. Other wikis could vary widely in their copyright enforcement. - NYC JD (objection, asked and answered!) 12:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This is now resolved - Vishnu image in Wikimedia Commons. Gouranga(UK) 10:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Hindu (Culture)
Thought you may be interested in this article, which I just nominated for deletion. Abecedare 03:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Image in Krishna
Hi there. The reason I included that image in "Bhakti tradition" section is because Yakshagana emerged from Bhakti tradition. The current pictures we have in that section like playing Holi have nothing to do with Bhakti movement. What is your opinion about this? Gnanapiti 18:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Why isn't the origin of Vishnu important?
Hi Gouranga,

Why do you remove the link to LordKrishna.info regarding the discussion on the origin of Lord Vishnu? I think people need to participate and contribute to that community's discussion. Please reply on my talk page or under this. Best regards A devotee —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.111.35.196 (talk) 19:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC).


 * Dear Prabhu, - as you are currently signing in anonymously I will reply here. The link you added is certainly interesting in terms of general discussion, but I removed it in line with my understanding of Wikipedia policy regarding external links. There are obviously many thousands of interesting links which we could add in regards to the Vishnu article, but in order to stop Wikipedia becoming a links directory we have to be somewhat selective in what is linked and what is not. The link you added is clearly more of a blog-style web-page than a scholarly discourse and thus I would not deem it appropriate over and above the many other websites available. I hope this will not deter you from making valuable additions to Wikipedia in future. Sincere Regards, ys Gouranga(UK) 12:28, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear Gouranga,

Thanks or the answer. I truly appreciate it. May God Bless you.

RfAr
Hi, an Rfa has been filed against me and I've listed you an a party. If you could recall your impression of me during the cleanup of Buddha as an Avatar of Vishnu as done on 06:24, 6 November 2006 (can be found by CTRL+F here) and the quality of my citations on Yoga then I would be very grateful. Best Wishes, Freedom skies 10:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Sock issues
I see that we both suspect a new sock of Maleabroad is in action. Would you mind adding Ganesha_beyond_India_and_Hinduism to your watch list, as that is another page involved in the madness. I have added several Vaisnava topics to my own watch list that I notice you also follow. Buddhipriya 20:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Freedom skies
Hello,

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened: Requests for arbitration/Freedom skies. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Freedom skies/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Freedom skies/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, - Penwhale | Blast him / Follow his steps 03:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Image:MahaVishnu.jpg listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:MahaVishnu.jpg, has been listed at. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. BJBot 13:48, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Idol worship
What was wrong with cult image as a destination? Idolatry is a loaded term used mainly by the abrahamic religions. In fact the first sentence of the idolatry article says 2Idolatry is a sin" so it's not especialy neutral. Totnesmartin 23:07, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I came across the 3 pages (Idolatry, Idol worship and Cult image) today after seeing the note left on the Talk:Hinduism page. IMO both cult images and idolatory are possibly loaded titles, and perhaps the best solution would be to merge the 3 articles under the more neutral "Idol worship" heading. Then Idolatory can be used in the subsections dealing with the Abrahamic religions (with the detailed description left to the Idolatry in Christianity article) while the Dharmic relgion view can also be discussed independently - withour drawing any value judgments. What do you both think ?Abecedare 00:33, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Interesting issue which I noticed here by accident. I agree that the term "idol" is a loaded term.  Part of the problem is that the use of Murtis in Hinduism is difficult to explain easily.  I am concerned that none of the titles proposed so far really makes the idea clear.  "Cult image" has the advantage of not using the word "idol", but on the other hand the word "cult" is itself loaded, as is under current (and frequent) discussion on the New Age pages. Buddhipriya 02:33, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * For me both Idol worship and Idolatry mean approximately the same thing (which is why I redirected), but at least Idolatry is an honest description of the point of view it is depicting. Maybe I'm wrong in that? If the concept of Deity worship in Hinduism was expanded within the Murthi and Puja articles, then we could leave the Idolatry article purely as a discussion of the Abrahamic viewpoint on the subject, with a brief summary in regards to Hinduism etc... and links to the Murthi article? I don't feel it's a good place to discuss the topic of murthis (i.e alongside Idolatry) and still hope for a non-combative neutral article? Not really sure where Cult image fits in, possibly a sub-section of one of the other pages as suggested above? Regards, Gouranga(UK) 19:41, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:MahaVishnu.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:MahaVishnu.jpg. I notice the 'image' page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Iamunknown 19:57, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The image really does need a fair use rationale. It's being used in four different pages; most fair use images on Wikipedia are used in one, or should only be used in one, page. Feel free to discuss at the image's talk page. --Iamunknown 19:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: The Maleabroad saga continues
Ah, sorry for the delay in replying, I've been pretty busy this past week. I see that particular sock's been blocked; having any problems, since then? – Luna Santin  (talk) 22:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)


 * User:Abecedare/Maleabroad is now available as to coordinate information about this persistent fellow. I hope you will join in there. Buddhipriya 22:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank You
Thank you for your kind help. I hope to improve in the near future. Take good care in the meantime. Bhaktivinode March 27, 2007

Why?
I just want to know something. Why did you delete my film entries in the Reincarnation article? They clearly talk about the subject in both movies. Just tell me why. STORMCSR April 2, 2007

Aditi Commentary
My reason for the Aditi article is because it is a commentary on the Goddess Aditi. The present article in on a 20th Century interpretation of a mythlogical tradition - Aditi from the Vedas to the Puranas to vernacular/english commentary.

The fact that Tamal Krishna Gosvami was the medium of this particular commentary is of secondary importance. I think, and I mean this in respect, that you are viewing the Aditi article as if it is on a dead Goddess/mythological tradition. This is not so, and the near past is fair game to be recorded on wikipedia - Aditi commentaries included.

Jewish scholarship is up to date on its articles on new commentaries religious narratives in the recent past such as: Chayei Adam, Mishnah Berurah, Aruch HaShulchan, andOrach Chayim. The highly specified nature of these commentaries in no way should keep them off of wikipedia.

Every valid commentary on Aditi has just as much right to have an article on Wikipedia as those of other mythological, religious, theological i.e. narrative traditions. Please know that I am very open to continue this discussion further. Take good care in the meantime. Bhaktivinode 2 April 2007

License tagging for Image:420px-Gita1.jpg
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(Uploaded under wrong title in error)

iskcon incident
Do you know anything more about Suharto Maharaj? Baka man  21:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * That'll be Suhotra Prabhu probably   Chopper Dave 21:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Mahabharata/Ramayana family trees
Hi Gouranga! User:Vinwe proposed a fews days ago the creation of family trees in the Indian epics. Draft versions are being created at User:Priyanath/sandbox and discussion is taking place at User talk:Priyanath/sandbox. Your input would be much appreciated. Hare Krishna GizzaChat  &#169; 05:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Bhagavad Gita
Since we have been so successful in previous collaborations, I am sure that we can work effectively on articles like Yoga and the Bhagavad Gita. I hope that at any time if you feel my edits are inappropriate you will revert them or move them to the talk pages for discussion, where I am sure we can reach agreement. I have a concern that the Bhagavad Gita article reflects some sectarian POV, perhaps due to the specific references that have been used for it so far. As a general approach I would recommend that the number of references be increased, with a specific view to including non-sectarian sources and academic sources. These can be integrated in complementary ways to what is there now, I am sure. I enjoy working with you as an editor and hope that you will give me feedback on how I can adjust my own editing style to partner with you most effectively. Buddhipriya 20:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Let me restate that I have developed high respect for your ability to work collaboratively and I value dialog with you very much. I respect your editing style and have seen many examples of your fairness and willingness to examine various points of view.  I consider you to be one of the most valuable editors we have in the Hinduism project.  Many of the articles on Wikipedia deal with complex and sometimes controversial subjects.  Knowing that colleagues such as yourself are willing to work as part of an intellectual team helps keep me involved with Wikipedia.  Thank you for your contributions, and please continue to help me to improve as an editor by giving me feedback to help me become aware of my own biases and limited background.  Buddhipriya 16:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Tirumala Venkateswara Temple
i recently edited Tirumala Venkateswara Temple article as well as added other daughter articles on the temple. i plan for more changes, but would request your feedback in the meantime as wellKalyan 21:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Your Ganesha picture
I may have a specific use for the picture you uploaded on the Ganesha page which now has an expanded discussion of the iconography of that form. I cropped it down a bit and uploaded a cropped version as Ganesha Festival smaller.jpg. I do not understand Wikipedia copyright rules for images very well. Would you take a look and let me know if this crop is OK with you, and OK with Wikipedia? If no to either, we can delete it. I am not sure if the image will work because the detail on the hands is not good. Do you have any other frontal images of it that show it relative to the crowd to give sense of size? Buddhipriya 22:47, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Prabhupada article
Hari! I was thinking we should edit the "reactions to prabhupada's death" section right down. I don't see the reason to drop names, or even mention that disciples then became spiritual masters. This information is included more appropriately on the ISKCON page. What do you think? Chopper Dave 02:46, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Re:Name
Thank you ! :-) I hope to do justice to the good admiral's name by making good contributions here. I wish you well and hope to work with you in the future, Sir Reginald Aylmer Ranfurly Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax 16:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Freedom skies
This case is now closed and the results have been published at the link above.


 * Freedom skies is placed on standard revert parole for one year. He is limited to one revert per page per week, excepting obvious vandalism. Further, he is required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page.
 * Freedom skies shall select one account and use only that account. Any other account used may be indefinitely banned. Pending selection of an account Freedom skies may not edit Wikipedia.
 * Violations of paroles and probations imposed on parties of this case shall be enforced by blocks for an appropriate period of time. Blocks and bans are to be logged at Requests for arbitration/Freedom skies.

For the Arbitration Committee --Srikeit 18:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Markandeya
I have edited Markandeya but not in a refine from. But I got the matter in. It is from relvant source. i dont have source in written format it is in audio file available at http://www.surasa.net/music/harikatha/#kota_markandeya_songs in telugu. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.176.105.39 (talk) 00:50, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

Re: Sanat-kumara
hey, thanks for the quick reply, i didnt think i'd get one so soon. heres link to pdf of lakshmi sahasranama in sanskrit (no english which was bad for me): - i'm sure somewhere in there it says stuff "sanat-kuamara uvaca......." u think u could just translate those parts for me? oh, and theres also one line in the beginning thats "gargi uvaca sanat-kuamara bhagavan..." i could send u a tiny clip of that section of the song if ur interested, by email. thanks also for the story, indiadivine is a nice site.


 * Anyone good at speed-reading Devanagri? Gouranga(UK) 12:54, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


 * ya, i couldnt find english transliteration.... :-(
 * Sadartha 07:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Vaishnavism
i had moved the hinduism template up and the tirumala temple down for a reason: The temple of tirumala is not the best example of vaishnavism practices. The temple follows the Vaikhanasa agama for all rituals inside the temple though it does follow the Vaishnavite practices (Pañcaratra agama) for festival celebrations (and that too outside the garbha griha). Thus the temple is strictly not a vaishnavite temple, whereas better examples would be the Srirangam temple or even the govindappa swamy temple in tirupati, though tirumala might still be a more popular if incorrect choice.

I am consulting a person who is well versed in the history of the temple for this clarification but any thoughts in the meantime is welcome. Kalyan 10:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

article rating ...
hi - since you have had a lot of interest in the tirumala temple, can you review, copyedit and give a rating for the articles on the various idols in the tirumal temple. you could start with Malayappa swami and at the bottom of the page is a box that has links for other idols as well. Lemme know. Kalyan 16:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Avatar article
Please keep the title in mind. Similarities between Advaita Vedanta and Mahayana Buddhism as developed by Nagarjuna are not relevant to that article. Arrow740 21:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Moved discussion to: article talk page. Gouranga(UK) 13:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image (Image:AnantaVishnu.jpg)
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Dhira
Any idea where we can add the Dhira article to get it out of orphaned status? HK in Popular Culture doesn't seem so appropriate. Chopper Dave 03:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Idol-worship
Gouranga, the original expressions are always better than any translation. murti means concrete form of something abstract. Ganesha, for example, is conceived as a deity (devataa) of God. Then that abstract conception is given a concrete form. Any of the numerous forms of Ganesha is a murti of Ganesha. When a murti is duly installed at some place and consecrated as God, that murti becomes a vigraha. It is referred to as God's vigraha. A nonbeliever desecrates a murti, a believer worships a vigraha. A vigraha is an archa-avataara: God as a deity in the vigraha is worshipped, that is, archanaa [puja in any particular way] is done to God who is present as an avatara in the vigraha. Thanks.Kanchanamala 05:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Invitation
Would you be interested in joining a team effort to bring the Tantra article to featured article status.

If so, please see Talk:Tantra

TheRingess (talk) 18:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)