User talk:Grablife5

November 2020
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, your addition of one or more external links to the page Mid-American Stock Car Series has been reverted. Your edit here to Mid-American Stock Car Series was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to remove links which are discouraged per our external links guideline. The external link(s) you added or changed (https://twitter.com/Midamracing) is/are on my list of links to remove and probably shouldn't be included in Wikipedia. If the external link you inserted or changed was to a blog, forum, free web hosting service, fansite, or similar site (see 'Links to avoid', #11), then please check the information on the external site thoroughly. Note that such sites should probably not be linked to if they contain information that is in violation of the creator's copyright (see Linking to copyrighted works), or they are not written by a recognised, reliable source. Linking to sites that you are involved with is also strongly discouraged (see conflict of interest). If you were trying to insert an external link that does comply with our policies and guidelines, then please accept my creator's apologies and feel free to undo the bot's revert. However, if the link does not comply with our policies and guidelines, but your edit included other, constructive, changes to the article, feel free to make those changes again without re-adding the link. Please read Wikipedia's external links guideline for more information, and consult my list of frequently-reverted sites. For more information about me, see my FAQ page. Thanks! --XLinkBot (talk) 03:32, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Possible Conflict of Interest
Hello, Grablife5. We welcome your contributions, but if you have an external relationship with the people, places or things you have written about in the page Mid-Am Racing Series, you may have a conflict of interest (COI). Editors with a conflict of interest may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic. See the conflict of interest guideline and FAQ for organizations for more information. We ask that you:


 * avoid editing or creating articles about yourself, your family, friends, colleagues, company, organization or competitors;
 * propose changes on the talk pages of affected articles (you can use the request edit template);
 * disclose your conflict of interest when discussing affected articles (see Conflict of interest);
 * avoid linking to your organization's website in other articles (see WP:Spam);
 * do your best to comply with Wikipedia's content policies.

In addition, you are required by the Wikimedia Foundation's terms of use to disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution which forms all or part of work for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation. See Paid-contribution disclosure.

Also, editing for the purpose of advertising, publicising, or promoting anyone or anything is not permitted. Thank you.  Royal broil  14:45, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
 * You continue to make major changes to the article, especially odd formatting. Wikipedia has a relatively uniform style format for articles found at WP:MOS. It addresses a format for the article as a whole, headings, English variations in different nations, and much more. Articles need to consider everything from wide screen monitors to smart phones (I test on both). The style manual is length and very involved, especially when the "See Also" articles are considered. Even seasoned veterans continue to learn. Adding the article to so many categories don't make sense.


 * You are adding so many images to the article. The article links to a category on Commons that a visual person can view if they want. You need not include images of so many champions for example. I have MANY more pictures of series champions in my huge portfolio but I am deliberately not overloading the article. There should be a relatively small number of images that are right to the point. Adding one image of a driver's profile like Bill Prietzel or one of the Deckers would be better (but then not have an image of the same person's car). I prefer Paige Decker or second best would be Lou Goss. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not an image collection.


 * You added File:MID-AM RACING SERIES.png as the logo. Logos are not permitted at Wikimedia Commons and I am certain that it will get deleted since it is a logo of an organization without verified permission. I speak an administrator there (Wikipedia's image repository) and I do review and delete problematic images. Please follow the process at here. I will give you one week to follow the process as a courtesy before I act.


 * When you cite from reliable sources, that means an independent reliable source. This means you can't use the sanctioning body's website like you did with the new owner. You never cited the name change. Why isn't the name change even mentioned in the article? Where is the proof of the series name change? I can't find anything online. You moved the article without proof. Citations should be a major newspaper like a large town newspaper if at all possible. At least, it should be a regional racing publication. Wikipedia had been receiving major criticism for being unreliable and the problem was addressed by adding these requirements. My concerns were not addressed with the section. With your conflict of interest biases, you should not be removing issue tags on the article per Help:Maintenance template removal / when not to remove.


 * These are the reasons why you are asked to discuss changes to the article on the talk page. Other editors are having to spend time reviewing your edits because you keep doing major overhauls like massive category and image changes. I have spent hours already. There is much more that I could comment. It takes years to learn the nuances of Wikipedia. I am still learning.  Royal broil  15:16, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

December 2020
Hello, I'm Pahunkat. I noticed that you recently removed content from Mid-Am Racing Series without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the removed content has been restored. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks. Pahunkat (talk) 14:56, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Mid-Am Racing Series. Your edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. Repeated vandalism may result in the loss of editing privileges. Thank you. Pahunkat (talk) 14:59, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to blank out or remove portions of page content, templates, or other materials from Wikipedia without adequate explanation, as you did at Mid-Am Racing Series, you may be blocked from editing. Pahunkat (talk) 15:06, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Are you the same as User:Royalbroil? The imagery apparently was posted by them, but you say that you own the images. Please explain. Thanks, Pahunkat (talk) 15:16, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

, please stop your vandalism at Mid-Am Racing Series. Use the article's talk page, Talk:Mid-Am Racing Series, to discuss the changes you would like to see on the page. You may also benefit from reading Ownership of content. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:30, 6 December 2020 (UTC)


 * When you make changes, always preview them.
 * Always sign edits to talk pages with ~
 * When someone tells you that you violated a wiki policy or style guideline, read the pages that they link to and revise you changes accordingly.
 * You should only add material that you own if you are willing to allow wiki to use it. If that is unacceptable, don't add it.
 * Always provide an edit summary.
 * Most edit are not made by admins.
 * When you have a copyright issue, document it and follow wiki procedures.
 * While there are certainly legitimate users with empty user pages, creating a profile may help give you more credibility.
 * An unexplained blanking of content is disruptive. If there is a reason to delete a page, insert an appropriate template, e.g.,, and discuss it. There are exceptions, which you will learn as you get more experience.
 * Assume good faith.
 * Don't issue threats. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 16:28, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul Threat? No threats have been issued on my part.
 * You wrote Or (AND THIS IS NOT A THREAT I AM ASKING) is this something I should just get an attorney involved with?. A threat with a disclaimer is still a threat.
 * Please read ping. Also, include an appropriate number of colons and sign your posts. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 17:58, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul It was a question and in no way shape or form a threat. Sometimes with data myself, you, or even perhaps admins do not have the authority to remove something that isn't necessarily incorrect in facts. But if you all want to keep digging at me, I can do this all day.


 * talk Do not link this Wikipedia page to the www.midamracing.com site. Per the cites this page  Go Promotions is the owner of the Mid-Am Series and their website is https://gopromo.racing/midam/
 * Which is very confusing as their website doesn't even mention Mid-Am Theroadislong (talk) 20:32, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * talk I do not disagree with you, but the battle to have correct information has fallen to the wayside here. The Go-Promo url does indicate that atleast that portion of the site is listed for Mid-Am cars.  They also have a link in their URL to the schedule  https://gopromo.racing/midam/schedule/.  I have asked for this name to be reverted back to the "mid-american stock car series, which is the correct page name.  No luck this far.


 * Also Roger (Dodger67)As an FYI you removed dirt race tracks from the description citing that this an asphalt division. Not correct, this division utilizes both Dirt and Asphalt facilities similar to the ARCA series.


 * Apparently we have gotten across the point that the article is in no way owned by its subject. Let me add that Wikipedia does not exist to benefit or in any way promote its subjects. WP:NOPROMO--Quisqualis (talk) 02:59, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Discussion on Mid-am Racing Series
Pahunkat and Jonesey95 I would just prefer the page be removed. I am of course now blocked from accessing a page that contains data to something I own. I started this with the best of intentions to provide a more accurate description to the racing series. I understand some of the edits to talk that may have seemed sales like (for that I apologize). I am still navigating these waters. Your admins continuously un-did formatting, and un-did my citations. I get it that they may not like my citation of the purchase of this racing series. I did not do a huge press release about the purchase of this series. So from my perspective I own the series, the images, and all of the headache. I can easily just put these statistics on the website or perhaps find an organization that is less combative to work with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grablife5 (talk • contribs) — Grablife5 (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Thanks for getting back to us and starting a discussion. Could I just confirm a few things to start: What is your relationship with the subject of the article, and do you have any alternate accounts (since the page was created by a different user)? Yours, Pahunkat (talk) 15:50, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Pahunkat I am the owner of the Mid-Am Racing Series. . I do not have any alternative accounts. As for the other user Royalbroil, I have no affiliation with him. Based on the links in his Bio appears to be a fan who loves to take pictures. Let me know what I need to provide as I am in contact with all of the previous owners of the series, to just have this page removed. Thank you!


 * Hi The article was created back in 2007 with several editors contributing text and images since then. You started editing the page just a couple of weeks ago, so it is illogical for you to claim ownership of the entire content of the article. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 15:57, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * , thank you for engaging. None of the text is owned by you, as far as I can tell.
 * If there is a copyright violation somewhere on the page, please let us know the exact text that is violating a copyright and provide a link to the copyrighted document.
 * The images were almost all uploaded by . The two images currently used in the article that you uploaded were published with Creative Commons licensing, which means that anyone in the world can republish them as long as they comply with the CC licensing terms.
 * You do own the headache, it appears. Learning the ropes here at Wikipedia can be a challenging process. I recommend that you start with the many helpful links in the welcome section at the top of this page. If you had read those pages, especially the "conflict of interest" page, much of your headache could have been avoided. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:07, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The images were almost all uploaded by . The two images currently used in the article that you uploaded were published with Creative Commons licensing, which means that anyone in the world can republish them as long as they comply with the CC licensing terms.
 * You do own the headache, it appears. Learning the ropes here at Wikipedia can be a challenging process. I recommend that you start with the many helpful links in the welcome section at the top of this page. If you had read those pages, especially the "conflict of interest" page, much of your headache could have been avoided. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:07, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * You do own the headache, it appears. Learning the ropes here at Wikipedia can be a challenging process. I recommend that you start with the many helpful links in the welcome section at the top of this page. If you had read those pages, especially the "conflict of interest" page, much of your headache could have been avoided. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:07, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Roger (Dodger67) Pahunkat Under a previous ownership. You might think it is illogical but I do not. I think its VERY LOGICAL to want to have some sort of say in what is being said about something you own.
 * Also, please sign your posts with with the following ~ so things don't get too confusing and we can see who has said what. Pahunkat (talk) 16:09, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * In terms of ownership of content, please read WP:OWN. Nobody owns the article or the contents of the article. As far as I can tell it was started by another user, and has grown over the years with various users adding content. Anything else to add ? Pahunkat (talk) 16:15, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Roger (Dodger67), Pahunkat, Jonesey95 I have a solution to this. If I was able to track down each user, and they requested that their contribution be deleted would the be sufficient enough to delete the page? Or (AND THIS IS NOT A THREAT I AM ASKING) is this something I should just get an attorney involved with?
 * No, actually it does not give you any say at all about the article, the fact that you own the company is entirely irrelevant. We don't need your permission to write about the company any more than a newspaper needs the Coast Guard's permission to write about a hurricane. Please read this policy page about the ownership of Wikipedia articles. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:17, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Just a question here: Why do you want the page deleted? Even if you own the subject of the article, I'm afraid you don't have control over the existence of the article. Pahunkat (talk) 16:21, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * If the reason why you want the page to be deleted is what I think it is, I believe there may be a way forward for us. Pahunkat (talk) 16:26, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

I see Roger (Dodger67) is not a very good reader.....So lets try again shall we? What I said was "I think its very logical to WANT to have some sort of say in what is being said about something you own". If you own a business of course you want details, dates, and basic information to be correct. That is not the case with this. So please take your condescending attitude and go else where. Pahunkat I would like this removed because nothing I have added is incorrect in facts, figures, etc. But if Wikipeida wants to split hairs over photo placement, tables, etc which is the case here then what is the point of having this. I would have even been fine with you removing me as a owner of the series. I did not do a press release because that is how little I care about being labeled as an owner. What I do care about is that this is in a readable format on desktop, mobile, and tablet and that the basics such facts are correct. At a minimum I would just ask that every contribution I have made to the page be reverted. You folks have obviously deemed me as an unreliable contributor and a vandal, so can you guys at least do that?

I think there's a way forward then. Would you consider the following solution. Please read fully: What do you think of that? Is it acceptable? Pahunkat (talk) 16:37, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Firstly, the article is cleaned up to what would be deemed acceptable per wikipedia policies or reverted to the article before the dispute
 * Then, Grablife5 reads the content and sees what they like and what they wish to improve. They submit a request for edit on the talk page of the article. Editors such as myself review the request, perhaps suggest a few modifications to conform to WP:NPOV and then implement them on the article. Not only does that conform to our policies on Conflict of interest, but it ensures that the article contains the content Grablife5 wants in in whilst adhering to our policies. Also, it removes the need for a deletion because the content is agreed on in a civilized manner with everyone assuming good faith

Pahunkat I am still asking that my contributions to this page (only) be deleted.

RoyalThank you for the insight. For me I think this is too much to digest and learn. But please despite all this, if you are ever at a race shooting photos I would love to meet you. Thank you for keeping the page "Nazi" compliant lol. Pahunkat I would just ask that any changes I have made to the Wikipedia page be reverted. As Royal said apparently there are nuances to having a logo be allowed and again I am a vandal so what value does Wikipedia see in ANY of my changes. It sounds like the name is going to be reverted as well which would actually be ok with me. After all this is said an done I really do not want an affiliation with Wikipedia and will never attempt to contribute anything which will be music to some peoples ears. Thank you!

Also Royal There is not a lot of press on this. I bought this from Greg and despite my grouchy demeanor here I really do not like a lot of press or bragging. The series has been struggling for a few years only because Greg owns Tomah and is way too busy to do both. I kind of came in under the radar. Admittedly the images are too much, but I feel like this and maybe all of you could weigh in. A lot of older images that had previously been on the internet seem to have disappeared. I am beginning to struggle to find images from when the series ran at Road America. I now understand this isn't the right place for an archival. I get it, I really do. I am just so tired of all of this that I do not want to be a part of it. I will let Wikipedia be Wikipedia. (talk)


 * Per WP:AGF, we won't start calling people vandals over here and will try to assume good faith of all editors. I think the solution would be to revert to before and then let Grablife contribute via 'edit requested' template on the talk page of the article, since they may be able to help us expand but they do have a COI. I will have to ask for the opinion of Roger (Dodger67), since I am not actually an admin but a normal wikipedian! Pahunkat (talk) 16:59, 6 December 2020 (UTC)


 * yes that seems reasonable, just follow the established rules and practices and everything should be ok. I will now lift the edit restriction. As I actually have no interest in motor racing I will not be doing "content" editing. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 17:11, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I will revert to before Grablife edited the article now. To request an edit, just go to the talk page and start a new section, tagging it with the following - . Thank you for contributing to a discussion Grablife5, most COI's don't and are blocked. Pahunkat (talk) 17:28, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

To request an edit, just go to the talk page and click on 'request corrections on or suggest content' from the COI notice. Thanks, Pahunkat (talk) 17:36, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Pahunkat, Royal, Roger (Dodger67). The only other thing to be reverted is the actual name. It was called Mid American Stock Car Series and is now listed as Mid-Am Racing Series. My personal opinion is that the reverted data is more accurate when paired with the previous name. I do not think it would be accurate with Mid-Am Racing Series. Maybe even perhaps in the first line of the description referring to this series in the past tense would make this more accurate. Obviously that is up to your discretion. If there is question on that I have included Royalbroil who might be able to give good insight as well. Everything appears to be reverted and while there are a lot of inaccuracies with the statistical information on there I will not touch a Wikipedia page again. I thank you all for your help.
 * To make this request, you should use request edit on the talk page of the article concerned &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:32, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Notice of Conflict of interest noticeboard discussion
There is currently a discussion at Conflict of interest/Noticeboard regarding a possible conflict of interest incident with which you may be involved. Thank you. Orange Mike &#124;  Talk  15:52, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Legal threat
Your recent edits to User talk:Grablife5 could give Wikipedia contributors the impression that you may consider legal or other "off-wiki" action against them, or against Wikipedia itself. Please note that making such threats on Wikipedia is strictly prohibited under Wikipedia's policies on legal threats and civility. Users who make such threats may be blocked. If you have a dispute with the content of any page on Wikipedia, please follow the proper channels for dispute resolution. Please be sure to comment on content, not contributors, and where possible make specific suggestions for changes supported by reliable independent sources and focusing especially on verifiable errors of fact. Thank you. Theroadislong (talk) 16:19, 6 December 2020 (UTC)