User talk:Grae Bear

"To those the gods wish to destroy, first they make proud." - Grae Bear (talk) 07:40, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Welcome!

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Email
Hi Grae Bear. I received your email, thanks. However, rather than reply via email I thought it would be better to continue the discussion on-wiki. I've responded at the WP:MESO talk pg, pls take a look if you will. I have also raised the concerns I have about including the ext link to the animated Aztec calendar, at the Aztec calendar article's talk page, if you have comments would be interested to read them there. Cheers, --cjllw ʘ  TALK 13:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Your edits to Teotihuacan
I deleted a few of your recent edits to Teotihuacan because they were unreferenced and somewhat on the speculative side. For example:


 * "The city was run by the holy order of Quetzalcoatl, a spiritually divine sect that believed in a "plumed serpent" god of the "holy wind." The word hurricane is derived from the last portion of the name; Huacan."

I don't believe that anyone knows who "ran" Teotihuacan. Also, the word "hurricane" is derived from the name of the Carib/Maya god Hurican or Hurakan. Other edits that I removed were similarly suspect.

We certainly do appreciate your edits. Please help. But any edits should be referenced.

Thanks, Madman (talk) 02:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

'''

AZTEC / TOLTEC CALENDAR CONCEPTUAL CONFIGURATION
'''

THE ANCIENT NATIVE CALENDAR

The illustration below represents a calendar of one Earth year and has 365 divisions, one for each day. The divisions are bundled in groups of twenty, of which there are eighteen. Five days remain. New Year’s day is arbitrarily positioned in relationship to the four seasons. The start of a new year can be any day deemed appropriate for that purpose (equinox, solstice, helical risings, etc.). On this calendar, the first day of the New Year coincides with the Vernal Equinox.



AZTEC / TOLTEC CALENDAR >  Logical Method

What is a logical method? If you are not sure, the simple explanation is a method or activity that produces a predictable pattern or sequence. Predictability follows a logical pattern. Understanding the logic underlying a pattern is key to the accuracy of its predictability; or not. Many folks believe that the Indian used a method to produce 360 distinct day-names. But, no one is certain of its makeup. To answer this important question, a close look at an eyewitness report eliminated all possibilities but one. Let us put it in perspective.

The flood of treasure-hunters that immigrated to the new world, after the siege of Tenochtitlan 1521, had little use for Native time-management, imposing their own. The European civil system supplanted the Native system, which was paved over. Diego Duran, who arrive in 1543 at age six and grew up with nahua playmates, became fluent in the indigenous culture very early, embodying "little Spanish-Indian boy." Even he didn't fully grasp the local day-counting methods, but his observations do offer a small glimpse with big implications. What the confused description of events inadvertently show is: whatever logical method that the Natives did apply, numbers were being employed to define the civil weekday. From: The Book of Rites & Gods and the Ancient Calendar  by  Diego Duran

Page 394:

“''In ancient times the year was composed of eighteen months, and thus it was observed by these indian people. Since their months, were made up of no more than twenty days, these were all the days contained in a month, because they were not guided by the moon but by the days; there fore, the year had eighteen months. The days of the year were counted twenty by twenty.''

“''Each of the twenty days of the month had its name and symbol to designate each day. This is similar to the way in which we name the days of the week: Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and so forth. In this same manner the people indicated the twenty days of their month, in the order which is shown in our illustration [Plate 36]. It is well to give the names of these symbols. They are: Cipactli, which was the first figure and which means Head of Serpent. And when [the people] called it a head, I think that they understood it to be the beginning of the month, or its first day. The second day was called Wind; the third, House; the fourth, Lizard; the fifth, Serpent; the seventh, Deer; the eighth, Rabbit; the ninth, Water; the tenth, Dog; the eleventh, Monkey; the twelfth, Wild Grass; the thirteenth, Reed; the fourteenth, Jaguar; the fifteenth, Eagle; the sixteenth, Buzzard; the seventeenth, Motion; the eighteenth, Flint Knife, nineteenth, Rain; and the twentieth and last, Flower.''

“''At the beginning of each month, on the day which we have called Head of Serpent, a most solemn feast, as we shall see later in the description of the calendar... ''

“''Everyone knows that the year is made up of three hundred sixty-five days. But the number of these days divided into twenties makes up eighteen scores. These were the months of the years, but the five days which were left over were held by this nation to be unlucky, nameless, and profitless. Thus they remained as blanks; there were no symbols for them, or number[s]. And so they were called nemontemi, which means "days left over and profitless." These fell at the end of February, on the twenty-fourth, the day of the glorious Saint Matthias, in the month when we ourselves adjust the year. The natives also observed this day, and thus the year ended and a new year began... ''

"Aside from giving names to the days of the month, these twenty symbols, or characters, were used for telling the fortune of those born on them...

"The symbols representing each day of the month functioned as letters. In general, these painted characters were used as picture writing, describing native history and lore, memorable events in war, victories, famines and plagues, prosperous and adverse times.”

Page 360:



Native Days and Numbers from Duran's exhibits:

Page 187:

“''And thus the feast of knights and noblemen was held in honor of their god the Sun, and was called Nauholin, which means Four Motion. With this name it was solemnized according to the high position of the persons whose feast it was. The feast was celebrated twice a year: the first time on March 17 and the other [260 days later] on the second day of December - that is, on the two occasions on which the number Four Motion or Movement fell in the year. To better understand this, it is necessary to know that the native week covered a thirteen-day period and after the thirteen days had terminated, the count from one to thirteen began again. The months contained only twenty days, and for each of twenty a sign was designated. These signs were twenty, each having its own, just as we say Monday, Tuesday, and so forth. This way the days of the month were indicated, and among them was the sign ollin, in the form of a butterfly. When this sign (counting, as they did, the weeks by thirteen) fell on the number four (which occurred only twice a year), the feast called Four Motion was celebrated splendidly, as we shall see.''"



The fact that the event is mentioned to have occurred twice a year, 260 days apart, may indicate that this is a regular annual event with the start point calibrated from a recurring astronomical event. A full consideration of the eye-witness' statements shows that is not the case, from which some confusion has prevailed. The over-riding reality is that the event was recurring on a 260 day interval; not characteristic of a xiuhpohualli.

From a New Year day of March 1, Duran's account noted the date of March 17 for Nahiolin [aka: Nahui Ollin] following the Spring equinox by 6 days. The Julian calendar was in use at that time. This would be March 27 on the Gregorian calendar.



Nahui Ollin per Duran

Note: 1. The Julian calendar was being referenced by Spanish friars. For Gregorian equivalent, add 10 days. 2. The year 1571 is an arbitrary date. It was during the working years of the first chroniclers whose

journals were compiled over the course of a lifetime.

Based on Duran's comments regarding 4 Motion and from the diagrams above, it becomes obvious that the only time that 4-Ollin would fall on the days this eyewitness has indicated would be the first occurrence after the Native New Year. That means he was on hand to observe the "trecenas" of the New Fire ceremony at the beginning of the seventeenth cycle. This would place the Julian date at 1571. It is important to realize that the word "trecena" being used to describe a 13-days cyle, in reality is "trece cena" a two word Spanish phrase meaning 13 banquets or feasts. Look it up in any Spanish/English dictionary. It relates to the xiuhmolpilli and "Binding of a Complete Bundle of Years" that took place every 52 years.

All indicators point to a logical systematic way for a Native to keep an appointment. Since the days of the "metzli" were designated by symbol, the only thing undefined are the eighteen numbers. On currently available codices where a time designation was intended only the tonalmatl was cited. The documents were spiritual in nature. The 20 x 13 combo offer zero ability to have 360 distinct day-name combinations as required by the xiuhpohualli.

Because it is not specifically spelled out by obvious example, for convenience, the European mind tries to make the Native day-counting scheme fit the familiar month/day model. Fortunately, the year-counting scheme of the 52 years xiuhmolpilli was detailed beyond refute and bears scant resemblance to European schemes. But, it does offer a glimpse of the logical method of naming the years. (see below) Page 359:

Nexiuhilpiliztli - Completed Binding of a Perfect Circle of Years



Xiuhmolpilli - 52 years cycle => Naming of the Years

The Natives were utilizing a logical method to distinguish 360 uniquely designated days, as with the 260 count. According to eyewitness, in the case of the tonalpohualli, symbols are used as "week"-signs with the days being represented as dots (i.e.: numbers). But, in order to have 360 distinct day-tags that were composed of the same symbols and dots, and since the symbols were used for the days, there is only one way to configure the remaining variable of 18 numbers. Here lay the criteria for the "analogous form" that could be represented as a mechanical gear array. To define a configuration that best matched the given criteria, and through testing would prove or deny any inherent validity of its analogy.

Researchers of the Native calendar are assured that a scheme to distinguish 360 days to, at the very least, keep a business appointment or write a legal contract, was in use. The logical method was so unfamiliar and obscure to the immigrant influx, that they burned the Native papers and imposed the Julian system. By a thorough reflection on the words of a uniquely qualified human being who experienced a rendezvous with destiny, any interested researcher can approach an adequate explanation. The Logical Method that fits the overall criteria is the mechanics by which the animated Aztec Calendar is based. It is a single solution that best fits this given criteria.



Meshing the 260 day scheme with a 360 day scheme produced order from chaos. Somehow the two wheels worked as a unit. When configuring the wheels, an unexpected insight was brought into focus. The gear-drive "analogous form" was consistent with how the nemontomi count adjustments were done. The count of days stopped for five days, after which the wheels of time would then continue. It was this stopping and starting of the wheels of time that "digitized" a large civil population.

Not only that, every 52 years the day-counters added 13 days (trec cena) to the day-count, moving the year-designator by 13 places. Utilizing this scheme to track the years, by the beginning of the 16th cycle the year of 1519 started on 1 Reed. Just as, the beginning of the 15th cycle (1467) was on 1 Condor and 17th cycle (1571) began on 1 Flower, and so forth.

Since 1375ad, the Aztec/Mexica calendar was cloned from the Toltec calendar brought from Cholula. According to Native timekeepers, Cortez came to the land at the beginning of the 16th cycle, which was in 1519ad. Since a cycle is 52 years, that places the beginning of the 5th Sun at 687ad. This coincides with the collapse of Teotihuacan and the founding of Cholula and the establishment of Tolla by the Quetzalcoatl clan, origin of the Toltec.

Page 412 (footnote):

1) Duran places the beginning of the Mexica year on March 1,  whereas Sahagun states that it is February 2.*   According to Duran’s calculation the Aztec year would end on February 28, and on  February 29 in leap years.   It is curious that Fray Diego accepted February 28 as the final day of the Aztec year, a calculation that adjusts neatly to European system of regular and leap years.



Duran Native Calendar

* There are 27 days between Sahagun's February 2 &   Duran's March 1

Sahagun Native Calendar



References:

The Book of Rites & Gods and the Ancient Calendar ISBN: 0806108894

by Friar Diego Duran, 1581;  translated from Spanish

Norman, Oklahoma: University of Oklahoma Press; 1971

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