User talk:GrahameKing/Archive 2

History of Primal Therapy article
I read through the recent discussions on Talk:Primal_therapy. I also added two more comments to the Talk:Arthur_Janov page. Did you send an email enquiry? The 1973 date for France D's marriage to Art is without credibility. After the divorce, to Vivian's great credit, she avoided the temptation to publicly humiliate Arthur Janov. After all, he wrote in the original Primal Scream: "It is instructive to note that married couples who have both gone through Primal Therapy have never separated." (chapter 12). And according to France D. Janov's own admission in the Primal Center's Video Series 2, she enrolled at the Primal Institute because excessive marihuana use had broken down her gates. So it's a fact that Art married a former patient.

My feeling is that despite being tagged as a stub, the content of the Arthur Janov article is just about right for an encyclopedia entry. It isn't really the place to dissect Janov's reputation. I know it happens in other Wikipedia biographies, but in many cases it has got out of hand. I agree with your suggestion on the Primal therapy Talk page that this kind of material belongs in a separate History of Primal Therapy article. The Conocer piece doesn't strike me as a sound source of verifiable information, so I put together some links to articles which can be found online:


 * If you type Emotional Intelligence into Google the No.1 result is Steve Hein's eqi.org website. He interviewed a former patient who attended Arthur Janov's Primal Center in the late 1990's. You can find his interview notes here, labelled "cautionary note".


 * Janov's bio on the Primal Center website states: "The latest research conducted at Dr. Janov’s Primal Center on the effects of Primal Therapy on the brain was performed by Dr. Erik Hoffman, former Professor of Neurophysiology at Copenhagen University." You can read what Erik Hoffmann, Ph.D., is doing now at Hoffmann's website.


 * On this page you can find a transcript of Dr. E. Michael Holden's account of what happened to him after he left the Primal Institute.

Carol Mither's book, Therapy Gone Mad, identifies case histories from Janov's first two books that were written by defendants in the lawsuits against The Center for Feeling Therapy. -- Simon (81.174.210.118 23:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC))


 * Thanks, Simon - Why can't you create an account like normal Wikipedians complete with a talk page? I don't think the History idea will come to much, There is just insufficient well sourced information to make much out of it - especially in view of Cgingold's latest analyses on the Primal Therapy talk page regarding derogatory statements about living individuals. I have already read the Michael Holden swan song twice - sad case. GrahameKing 00:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be applying two standards of evidence. The Primal Therapy article gives an outline of primal theory based on Arthur Janov's books alone, which were written to attract paying customers to his exclusive and expensive private treatment center. Last September, I wrote in the Primal Therapy talk page: Will the article have something to offer readers who want to know about Stettbacher's method, or the International Primal Association, or the plethora of copycat primal centers that flourished in the 1970s? There is sufficient well sourced information available for a history article -- for a start, two books about The Center for Feeling Therapy, Erik Hoffmann's bio, and the transcript of Dr. E. Michael Holden's audio tape which was played a number of times at the IPA convention in 1983. The books by Carol Mithers and Tomas Videgård are already referenced in the main article. I have a copy of Videgård's book, by the way. Also, Professor Steven Rose wrote a one-page account of his research with Arthur Janov in Lifelines: "As Janov had hoped, it turned out that before therapy, the quantity of these particular receptors in his client's platelets was considerably below normal. Within six months of therapy, clients' depression had lifted, and the biochemical and immunological measures I was making approached the average for 'normal' non-depressed people of the same age and sex." Further down the same page he added: "I obtained similar biochemical results when, a couple of years later, I did a similar study with depressed clients going through other, less dramatic forms of psychotherapy, so I suspect that in such cases the therapist matters more than the therapeutic theory." Having participated in the editing of articles in the past, I do not want to become like normal Wikipedians. In any article where there is the slightest hint of controversy the debates and arguments can become a colossal drain on time and energy. That's because no one actually "owns" any particular article and passing strangers can make edits too. I would only consider becoming a registered Wikipedian after there is a policy change to ensure that new edits are sandboxed until they are approved. -- Simon (81.174.208.243 16:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC))
 * Another interesting post, Simon. The quote from Lifelines is clearly very important indeed. Thanks for that. Your other points and questions are more difficult to answer but clearly deserving of an answer.


 * You seem to want a standard in which anything called "primal therapy" by its practitioner is ipso facto Primal Therapy. I can not go along with this. If my treatment of the subject so far seems far from NPOV - i.e exclusively pro-Janov - it is at least in part because I have been trying to do justice to Arthur Janov's writings first of all (timewise). It's a huge body of work (I have all of his books except the 2 before his last, by the way). This is not because of any bias but because he invented Primal Therapy and has spent several decades developing it and training therapists and it seems to me to make no sense to address the subject from any other starting point. Your earlier posts had the effect of solidifying this approach because as I explored, for example, Alice Miller's experience with Stettbacher I found no reason to consider him as a Primal Therapist - it appears he was not only not trained by Janov, but not trained by anyone, had no relevent academic qualifications and had only a temporary government permit (which expired) to practice in his location and also it seems that he was later facing some kind of abuse charges if I remember correctly. I instinctively steered clear of all that not even mentioning his name because I was unsure of the sources and did not want to be part of a lynch mob (even long after the fact). Janov, on the other hand, has a PhD and, prior to Primal Therapy, had a long history of practice as a therapist (legally). If he has been up on abuse charges, I would be very surprised - it would have been a paparazzi paradise. It's like comparing chalk and cheese. I agree that Janov's books are probably written to keep paying customers coming in. But I also believe they are for his past patients from no matter how far back to keep them up to date and for anyone else who might get some help from them. If Janov was the author of the PT article it would not have lasted long at all - it would have been deleted as spam before I even had a chance to update it.


 * On the idea of sandboxing all edits for approval, if you mean one sandbox per article with its own discussion page, history etc. Then the collaborators would have to agree at some point to propose the sandboxed version for approval. In this case the approved version could be kept locked at all times (vandals could only mess with the sandbox which the average reader would not look at). All this might work in theory but I think it would still be too frustrating for most editors to deal with and not sufficiently gratifying for casual editors - so the whole process would grind to a snail's pace. (IMHO)


 * As for the History article - I was thinking of the development of Primal Therapy in terms only of theoretical developments and openings and closings of Janov-approved institutes. There is some mention of these Janovian spin-off centers in The Journal of Primal Therapy but that covers only five years (1973-1978), in which time there was one opening and one withdrawal of certification, so it's of little consequence now. While on this point, I should say I have avoided using my copies of this journal as sources because they are out of print and never had a very wide distribution. I may have used a double standard against Janov here in allowing Randroid's work on Tomas Videgård's book (or for Janov, depending how you view Videgård's conclusions). -- GrahameKing 23:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I realize it's no quick task to compose a synopsis of Arthur Janov's writings. It's true that all the available evidence indicates Stettbacher was not formally trained by anyone. My concern is not about redefining primal therapy. I'm trying to look at it from the point of view of someone who wants to find out more about the subject from an encyclopedia. It seems likely that the majority of visitors would fall into these categories:
 * 1) People who already know the basics of Janov's theory from the books and want to find independent evaluations.
 * 2) Fans of John Lennon or bands like Primal Scream and Tears for Fears.
 * 3) People who've heard remarks about primal therapy on TV or seen a brief mention in a magazine or newspaper.
 * 4) Alice Miller readers. All her books are still in print. References to Stettbacher have been expunged from current editions, but older editions can still be found on the shelves of public libraries and in second-hand bookshops.

For all but the first category, a brief outline of Arthur Janov's theory is an appropriate starting point. Beyond that, I can think of many questions visitors might want answered. These are just a few that come to mind:


 * If Arthur Janov has been training primal therapists for nearly 40 years, why are there only two places -- both in Los Angeles -- where certified Janovian therapists can be found? If it's such an effective therapy why hasn't it been adopted by state-approved psychotherapy training programs elsewhere? I put this one first because it's a fundamental question. Janov wrote that he wants to give primal therapy to the whole world, but laments that it takes a very long time to train a good therapist. After nearly 40 years that excuse is wearing a bit thin.


 * Why haven't any independent outcome studies been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals? Tomas Videgård's study is all that's available, and even specialist second-hand book dealers have trouble locating copies. Steven Rose gives one page of coverage, but no citation apart from a student's dissertation. Again, this is a basic question -- especially since Janov maintains that PT produces better results than any other kind of psychotherapy. Steven Rose says the results were similar when other therapeutic systems were investigated in the same way.
 * Which primal center did Roland Orzabal attend? Did he go to Los Angeles or somewhere else? It's the sort of question a fan would ask. There's a Tears for Fears fan site which provides the answer. I didn't keep a note of the URL. He went to a primal center in London which is still operating to this day and has a website. I don't know if any members of the band Primal Scream experienced the therapy. It would be interesting to know.
 * Apart from the case histories, with pseudonyms, is there any information about how life turned out for former patients in the long run? Where are the success stories? I mean from sources other than the proprietor of the treatment center. Dozens and dozens of biographies of John Lennon have been published. It's well documented that he and Yoko Ono split up for a year not long after they finished the 'primal' album. John Lennon relapsed into a drug taking binge that lasted for most of that time. There are many paparazzi photographs from that period showing him stoned out of his mind.
 * Why is there so little information about the Primal Institute apart from a link to the website?

The primal therapists whose names were mentioned in Janov's early books remained loyal to Vivian. Nick Barton worked at the Primal Institute until he returned to England a few years ago. A patient who attended the Primal Institute in the late 1990s gave an account of his experiences online. His therapist was Leslie Pam. Barry Bernfeld and his wife are associate directors. What this means is that the Janov-trained therapists with the most experience continued to work at the Primal Institute until very recently, or are still there. Theresa Sheppard Alexander began her training at the Primal Institute in the early 1970s. When Arthur Janov opened the New York branch he appointed her as director. Subsequently, she went into private practice. I think it would be appropriate to at least mention her book in the Wikipedia article.

Art no longer conducts therapy himself. There are therapists at the Primal Institute who have more years of experience than any of the staff at Arthur Janov's Primal Center. To present Primal Therapy from just one point of view doesn't seem adequate to me. Vivian Janov contributed a great deal from the very beginning, although since the divorce, Art hasn't mentioned her name or given her any credit.

Is it an article of faith on your part that Arthur Janov, as the originator, is the only person who made significant contributions to the theory and practice of primal therapy? In 1977, Arthur Janov lost a legal battle with the International Primal Association over his exclusive right to make such a claim.

The Journal of Primal Therapy may only have covered spin-off centers from 1973-1978, but there are sources of information online, including the websites of several centers that continue to operate in the present. I'm not suggesting that their websites should be advertised, merely that it is historical information that's relevant and can be verified. They don't have to be named. I haven't linked to them. It's enough to state what many baby-boomers already know -- that copycat centers flourished for at least a decade and then dwindled in number. What will readers think if they can find this kind of information elsewhere, but not in Wikipedia?

I haven't attempted to insert material into either of the articles. As I said before, I think the Arthur Janov article is just right as it stands. The Primal Therapy article is quite long now. I didn't want to become involved with the Conocer debate. I added these recent comments because it took me a very long time to accumulate sources of information which answered the questions I was left with after reading Janov's books. Primal Healing is the only one I don't have. I know from the time when Primal-page.com had a discussion forum that many other readers wanted answers to the same questions. A separate History of Primal Therapy article would provide scope to add primal-related material which is not strictly Janovian. The Center for Feeling Therapy, the Stettbacher scandal and the Lennon sidenote are slices of history. -- Simon (81.174.213.187 13:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC))


 * Some excellent questions and very good points, Simon. Have you tried asking the Primal Institute? By the way Nick Barton left the Primal Institute well over twenty years ago and set up a private practice in England.


 * You have made a very good case for some kind of additional article but perhaps something with a title more like The Primal Revolution after the book of the same name or maybe Whatever happened to the Primal Revolution?. But I don't think I will be writing it any time soon. If I do it will certainly be very negative on drug assisted therapy (LSD, Ritalin etc).


 * Nick Barton wrote an excellent article for the Primal Newsletter, which I think I have a copy of somewhere, entitled Why Primal Therapy Takes Time. I think this may contain the answer to some of your questions about the apparent dearth of Janov-trained therapists. Also the Primal Institute back then (post-Arthur), a training program of ten trainees might produce one or two trained therapists several years later. The problem though, I think, is when some of them get out on their own, all the pains that were implicitly held under wraps by their special situation as trainees have to be dealt with while they are trying to "be there" for their patients with no back up therapist.


 * I'm glad you like the PT article just as it is - you probably noticed that I used the Steven Rose quotes and I plan to get that book because it looks like a very good read and a refreshing change of pace. I also updated the PT article a little as a result of your comments above. I still think it could use some more work - especially about drugs (illicit and prescribed). There is the whole area of protypic responses to birth trauma which is difficult and I will probably never get into that because it is problematic and Michael Holden, I think, may be indicative of that - although, in all fairness, he was a very special case because, as I am sure you know, his heart stopped beating for 45 seconds before he was born. What "valence" of Pain would that be??? -- GrahameKing 17:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Simon, can you help me with the Steven Rose study described in Lifelines? Does the 2003 edition give references to the two reports on the studies in the scientific literature? There should be two reports - one on the double blind study on Janov's patients and one on the later study on the patients in some other kind(s) of therapy. It looks like it will be over a month before I can get a copy of the revised (2005) edition which is the one I've referenced. -- GrahameKing 06:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

You asked if I put my questions to the Primal Institute. Yes. In either 1998 or 1999 Barry Bernfeld conducted a live Questions & Answers session about primal therapy in an online chat forum. I asked him if there were any primal therapists he could recommend in the UK. He said Nick Barton had returned to England but continued to provide individual sessions to former Primal Institute clients who had completed a three week intensive in LA. I can't remember why, but I assumed he had returned there not long before. I don't doubt that you are correct to say it was actually well over twenty years ago. I recall that Barry Bernfeld said the Primal Institute is still training therapists. He hinted that some of the potential clients in the chat forum might like to take it up as a career.

Training does take a long time. However, the questions that came into my mind were the same as questions other people have asked on forums and mailing lists. Apparently, Arthur Janov's policy now is to only issue conditional therapist certification. If they leave his employment the certificates are revoked. On the defunct Primal-page.com forum Réal Beaulieu said he was planning to take legal action against Arthur Janov because he denied Beaulieu was a Certified Primal Therapist -- on his website -- and accused him of unethical behaviour (an affair with a patient).

I wouldn't ask someone else to do the work of writing an article I wouldn't wish to tackle myself. The argument in favour of a history article is that it would get round the problem so many Wikipedia articles are afflicted with -- they seem to grow and grow until they exceed a reasonable length for an encylopedia entry. I can think of several Wikipedia articles which were split for that reason. I share your misgivings about the idea of drug assisted therapy by the way.

I don't know what conclusions to draw about therapy for birth trauma. Apart from followers of Otto Rank, I don't know of any therapeutic systems that address the issue. Neurophysiological evidence indicates that severe birth trauma can cause irreversible brain lesions.

Regarding Steven Rose, I don't know if the latest edition of Lifelines includes new material. I have the 1998 paperback edition (Penguin Books: ISBN 0-14-023700-3). There are no journal references related to psychotherapy. The central theme of the book is to debunk genetic reductionism. In the one-page digression, Professor Rose appears somewhat irritated by Janov's account of the research in New Primal Scream. You might be interested to know that there is a more recent book by Steven Rose, which, according to the reviews, includes a discussion of his research into biochemical correlates of psychotherapy. It's called "The 21st Century Brain" (2005). I haven't read it. I find Steven Rose's style of writing hard work to read. I don't know if the book mentions the Janov study specifically. -- Simon (81.174.216.161 10:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC))


 * Simon, I haven't put your earlier points and questions out of my mind. I have found the Wikipedia editing quite demanding and am just not sure I want to put myself through another round right now. Also, I have grave reservations about the copycat therapies partly from personal experience though nothing like the horror story on Janov's webpage that you linked to above. If I was going to write anything along the lines you are suggesting I would recommend to anyone desperate enough to try a non-certified primal therapist that they trust their own feelings and do not allow themselves to be bullied or otherwise manipulated by the therapist.


 * Why is Primal-page.com defunct? Is it because I ousted it from the Primal Therapy article? Also what exactly was your connection to it?


 * You wrote "Apparently, Arthur Janov's policy now is to only issue conditional therapist certification. If they leave his employment the certificates are revoked." What is your source for this? - it doesn't seem to gibe with his latest exploit into training people who haven't necessarily even had the therapy.


 * -- GrahameKing 01:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If the above questions are too challenging for you, okay. I can still view the primal page, so I don't know what you mean by defunct. Maybe this is what you might call a trojan horse link. -- GrahameKing 09:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

My, oh my! Aren't you the impatient one. There's no reason to make snide remarks. I have no idea what you mean by a trojan horse link. The name of the site isn't actually a link.

I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience with a copycat therapist or treatment center. You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote. The inclusion of cautionary advice is fully justified. What I actually wrote was: They don't have to be named. I haven't linked to them. It's enough to state what many baby-boomers already know -- that copycat centers flourished for at least a decade and then dwindled in number. Primal-page.com isn't defunct, only the forum. Again, you appear to have misinterpreted what I actually wrote. The forum got flooded with spam. I don't think webmaster John uses php hosting, so he wasn't able to install a forum with CAPTCHAs and other security measures. I used to visit the forum to read accounts by former Janov patients and discover titbits of information that Art Janov keeps very quite about.

If you want confirmation that Arthur Janov's policy is to make certification conditional, email any member of the International Primal Association. Contact details can be found on the IPA website -- www.primals.org. Former 'certified' therapists who left Janov's center and joined the IPA spilled the beans on the forum.

QUOTE: "...his latest exploit into training people who haven't necessarily even had the therapy." Good grief! That's a major about-turn.

As you don't seem to have looked into the history of primal therapy, I can understand why you wouldn't want to tackle the subject. The German Wikipedia is currently undergoing a trial where new edits are placed on separate pages until they receive approval. If that policy is adopted here, I'm prepared to write the article myself. -- Simon (81.174.210.90 10:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC))


 * Sorry about my misreading - didn't see the word "forum". You can't be seriously proposing that the IPA is an authority on what Arthur Janov does regarding certification. I don't know where you got the idea that I had not looked into the history of primal therapy (lower case). I just see it as an area that is so poorly sourced as to be virtually impossible to cover in a Wikipedia article that would survive a deletion challenge. Besides that it is an area that does not interest me. Even doing a similar article on Janov's Primal Therapy would be more than I want to take on just now - again mostly because of the sourcing problem. -- GrahameKing 03:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)