User talk:Grandmaster/Archive 3

IN REGARDS TO YOUR THREAT
I have a right to add that and it does not call for an occupation that is just your POV. File the formal complaint and cool heads will prevail. I would also like to point out you have a history of deleting other peoples contributions and legitmate comments on the talk page and I will point this out. I suggest you take a look at the rules. As an "Azari" I have the right to express myself. Now we are talking about expression and you are not allowed to threaten me on breaching any civil conduct when it comes to expression. 72.57.230.179


 * Actually I asked about so stop making things up. i am a memeber and it is going on the page. So stop trying to give me your stories. It is going on the Azari Wikiproject page where it belongs. See user;grandmaster if you look at this whole discourse of\r if any other user does they will see how artifical this debate is on your part. There is nothing you can do about freedom of epression of view for a page not related to article edits. You have o right to threaten anyone either. I suggest you start accomadating different and equlally valid perspectives in non-academic fields. I am warning you for the second time if you delete the contribution it will be desruption and vandalism. You can go complain, but you may not delete. 72.57.230.179


 * User:Grandmaster STOP. This is your third warning. You have no right to delete a userbox. 72.57.230.179


 * I suggest you examine yourslef and the rules you have violated before making cliams about others. 72.57.230.179

Pan-Iranism
Thats good to know Grandmaster, I am glad -- - K a s h  Talk 20:11, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Cool. It's good for a change to achieve a compromise once in a while :) Grandmaster 20:36, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I know! Tell me about it ;) --K a s h Talk 22:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it’s good that we can agree on certain things, I prefer to resolve the issues by talk, and not edit wars, and I‘m sure that you are also of the same opinion. I think something needs to be done to improve relations between Azeri and Iranian communities, because I don’t think there are any irreconcilable differences between us. Grandmaster 20:16, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, I see I was too late. I was away. Have you seen the Greater Iran article by any chance? I think it's pretty well-written. &mdash; Khoikhoi 04:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yep, it looks alright. Grandmaster 04:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Grandmaster, please stop your Turkish vandalism
Instead, please provide some arguments in support of your pointless reverts, and don't remove references. If you disagree, prove your point, providing your own references. Test56 19:30, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi, Rovoam. You were blocked till 2026, it’s too early for you to come back. Grandmaster 19:43, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * An admin once told me that "there are no restrictions when dealing with banned users" (including 3RR). Do you think that applies to permabanned users or 2020s banned users? &mdash; Khoikhoi 05:16, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I’m not sure. It depends on an admin, they might as well block you for 3RR violation. The best is immediately inform the admins. Grandmaster 05:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Azerbaijani people
Frankly no I don't think it's appropriate. It's basically emphasizing one point of view which is discussed in the text. There isn't a single encyclopedia that renders an ethnic group in such a contentious manner. I sometimes grow weary of the edit wars, but it's completely useless information. There is a section to discuss the various origins of the Azeris including an Iranic background. A smart move would be to clean-up that section and add relevant info. about South Azerbaijan, but the editors who keep adding that stuff don't seem to be interested in constructive editing it seems. Tombseye 05:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I moved it to the Iranian origins section of the article rather than deleting it for the time being. I'm usually willing to compromise on things whenever possible. I think if we didn't watch the article it would be re-written as the Azaris, an Iranian people who happen to speak a Turkic language! Sad state of affairs. Tombseye 06:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I figured I might as well join since I'm kind of an unofficial member already! ;) Tombseye 06:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * True, and now you are a formal member. I’m really glad. Grandmaster 06:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Say, I noticed you dealt with some of the changes IP was conducting on History of Azerbaijan. I tried to reason with him (and Khoikhoi did as well as always) as to why Azerbaijan actually does have its own history that isn't always about Iran, but I'm not sure the message got through. I really do hate it when big countries with hegemony on their minds try to subsume their neighbors and stake out their claims to notable historical events and figures. Anyway, I'll post any relevant stuff that comes to mind. I think the Azerbaijani people page needs to be fixed up at some point as I initially just tried to render it readable and I think it could use some more fine tuning like abdulnr and myself have been doing on Turkmen people. Probably try to do it over the next few days in-between work. Ciao. Tombseye 06:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikiproject Azeri
Hi, thanks, I'm also looking forward to work in this project--Hattusili 21:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Nizami
Hi I know we have agreements and disagreements. But I do not think we want to make the article about Nizami Ganjavi about his ethnicity. All we are sure of is 100% Kurdish mother. Other than that, the Qom part is in some old manuscripts, and that is just a 'maybe'. I think you should ask your friend to stop, since this will get Iranians involved. Also to deny that Shirin is an Armenian (and note I do not like Armenian Dashnak party or any fascist organization), is also wrong and it could get Armenians involved. I would appreciate it if you guys can come up with an agreement so that other Iranians and even Armenians and Wikipedians are not involved. --Ali doostzadeh 20:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the comment. But the user is definitely pan-turkist in many aspects and has some negative feelings towards Persians and Armenians.  I think we should resolve it like you said and the Encyclopedia Britannica did.  I think you can convince him.  Else I could it see it as being battle ground between Iranians, Azarbaijanis, Armenians, Tajiks and etc.  Something which is not necessary.  --Ali doostzadeh 12:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, I’ll try. Grandmaster 04:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Azeris
Hi GM,

I changed it because our friend 72. wanted more Iranian Azeris in the pic, so I picked on I knew. We can change it if there are more objections, he just seems like an interesting guy to me. We can go Googooosh if people don't like it. &mdash; Khoikhoi 05:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think people won’t be happy. It’s always like that with politicians, unless it’s someone like Nelson Mandela. I think Lotfi Zade is the best one to pick. Grandmaster 05:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, Behmod seems to agree. I wanted to have an Azeri who was an Iranian nationalist, which is another reason I picked him. The problem about Zade is that he was born in Baku. I'd rather have some one born in Iran. &mdash; Khoikhoi


 * Sorry to come in late on this, but a female is often good to have on any page about ethnic groups whenever possible I think. Googoosh would have been good for that reason. As far as I know, she identifies herself as an Iranian and is probably loyal to Iran more than anything else anyway. I'm not an expert on her though, but I'm just saying. She has a big following of Persians who love her in LA so that's the only reason I've even heard of her. Tombseye 21:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. I think we should not have any politicians, as some like a certain one, while others don’t. It’s good to have a female, because Azeri women are very active in political, cultural and economic life of Azerbaijan on both sides of Araks. Or maybe we need to include more pictures, like in the article about Kazakhs? There are so many cool Azeris, it’s hard to make a final pick :) I for one think that Kerim Kerimov, head of the Soviet space program would be good for inclusion. Grandmaster 21:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I do not agree with selecting pop stars or celebrities as representative of a race. Do you think, all Americans are handsome like Tom Cruz, or all Turks are handsome like Tarkan or Chinese like Michelle Yeoh or all Iranian Azeris are as beautiful as Googoosh. Their beauty or looks are usually exceptional and also sometimes fake(by unusual make-ups or beauty surgeries)


 * Celebrities are as good as anyone else. You know that we include in that collage prominent people in various fields of activity, and we Azeris have not only prominent politicians, but also chess grandmasters, scientists, musicians, artists, poets, etc. This should be reflected, but also I think we should have there at least one female. I think we may need to increase the number of pictures in the collage. Grandmaster 10:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

About the name of Ordubad
Hi Grandmaster Thank you about your comment about Ordubad and I really appreciate it. I try not to be bias and your comments will be helpful. Although, as I am new here. I may have some mistakes in first efforts.

Anyway, I believe Ordubad is a Persian name. Because "bad" is a Persian name and you have no problem with it. The word "ordu" is used in either Azeri or Persian but may have a Persian origin. In Persian it also means camp or army. You can find this word in old Persian literature. I bring an example from an old Persian literature written by Khwaju Kermani (1280- ?), a Persian sufi and poet from south of Iran. The existence of it in old Iranian texts may indicate the Persian origin of this word and in my idea Azeris probably adopted it from Persian.

خوشا چشمي که بيند روي ترکان خنک بادي که آرد بوي ترکان

مي نوشين و نوشا نوش مستان در اردو هاياهوي ترکان دل شيرافکنان افتاده در دام ز روبه بازي آهوي ترکان



The rough translation of the second line is:

Drink and enjoy drinking drunkenly, while beauties are chanting in the camp (ordu).

What is your idea? If, is that OK with you, I would like to add "Ordubad" again? Thanks,--Behmod 17:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi, thanks for writing me. The word ordu is Turkic and exist in all Turkic languages. For example Mongol Tatar state was called Kizil Ordu. See Golden Horde. The word exist even in Russian language and means something very numerous, Russians borrowed it from Tatars, but use it with a different meaning, but usually referring to armies. And the word horde in English has the same origin. Also, according to Iranica, “many Azeri words (about 1.200) entered Persian, since Iran was governed mostly by Azeri-speaking soldiers and rulers since 16th century, these loanwords refer mainly to administration, titles and conduct of war”. See the article called Azeri Turkish, page 246. The poetry you cited dates earlier than Safavids dynasty, but in fact Persia was ruled by Turkic-speakers for about 900 years, so no surprise that the words like “ordu” entered Persian language. So Ordubad is not a Persian name. But I also heard from some Iranian users that Nakhchivan is Persian. I’m not sure, does Nakhchivan mean anything in Farsi? Grandmaster 19:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

-- Hi, Yes, Nakhijevan (Nakhjavan in Persian) has a meaning in Persian(Nakh= String)+(Javan=young). But, you know that the name of Nakhichevan had been altered many times and we should see what was the original name to find the exact meaning of city.

About the ordu, I will try to find a Persian or Azeri linguistic and talk with him and get to a more scientific based conclusion about these subject (however since I am living in US, finding a Persian or an Azeri linguistic could be a hard job), but as a non-specialist in linguistic I can say that ordu has other different formats in Farsi like "orduzadan" means to camp. The fact that either Iranian or Turks used these word. But, we should see whichone adopted it from the other one. You said Farsi has 1200 Azeri word, but you know Azeris word with Iranian origins are much much more than these. I brought an example from old literature of Iran and also another format of this word, do you have an older reference in Turkish(it could help us to find the truth)? You know that Turkic nomads were living in northern borders of Iranian empires for about 2000 years and they adopted many words and traditions from Iranians which were in higher degree of civilization at the time. Moreover, about Kizil Ordu names we should be caution. Many names of tribes or ethnicity are given by other nations for example name of Ossetians ( your neighbours in Caucasus) were given by Greeks (I tried to find about the name origin and history of Kizil Ordu but I could not succeed up to now). Thanks, --Behmod 22:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I don’t think it’s worth to include Ordubad as a Persian name. You see that I did not argue with the inclusion of Baku as a Persian name, because its etymology is well known. And I don’t deny the influence of Persian civilization and language on Turkic people and specifically Azeris. We have many Persian words in our language, but Persian language also has Turkish words. So I’m not arguing because I have something against Persian names, it’s just about factual accuracy. The word ordu is well known to be of Turkish origin, and moreover it was adapted from Turkic people in such languages as Russian, English and Persian. I highly doubt that Tatars or Mongols adapted that word from Persian. Also see here, about the Turkish city of Ordu. In modern Azeri language ordu means army. So I don’t think it’s worth the argument. Regards, Grandmaster 10:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

-

Hey GM, I am not argueing with you too. I just want to discover the factual accuracy whithout any prejudice. That's why I talked with your friend Saposcat and looking in Persian litrature. I did not write the name NakhJevan because I do not have enough information at the moment. Although current name looks like Farsi names but the current name has altered many times and original name may have Assyrian or Armenian origin. --Behmod 15:06, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I don’t mind discussion. I’m sure that for you it’s also about factual accuracy, like it is for me. Take care. Grandmaster 18:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

--

I checked different sources. Ordu in Persian means “group of people” and probably is just a homophone with Turkish term ordu, means "army". This word is a Indo-Eruoean and does not have Altaic origin. It has the same origin with heorde in old English, herde in German and Kheordu in P.Gmc and other terms in other Indo-European languages. Also, in Persian other than ordu words like “ordugah” and “orduzadan” are existed which are different formats  of this word in Persian language. Ordu is not used as army and Persians have term “lashkar” means army.

I get to conclusion that Ordubad probably means a “town of many people“. Moreover, once I head from a Azeri linguistic who was familiar with Azeri and Persian and Pahlavi(old Persian) that the name of city in Pahlavi means “The City of justice”.

However, I do not have any plan to add any of above definitions to wikipedia at this time, except when I become sure about it or when I found a good citation.

P.S.  It is just a friendly correction for you; when you find a common word in Persian and Russian, English, Germany  and other Indo-European languages. It does not mean that they borrowed this word from each other necessary. In most cases it means that this word is a common Indo-European word. You may know that all these languages have the same origin. Do you know, what I am saying?

Cheers, --Behmod 09:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi. To end the dispute about the etymology of the name of Ordubad I refer you to encyclopedia Iranica. The article about Ordubad says: The Turco-Persian name "army town" implies a foundation during the period of the Mongol invasions or the ensuing Il-Khanid one, especially as the Il-Khanids made Azerbaijan the center of their power. Certainly, Hamd-Allah Mostawfi (writing in the mid-14th century) describes it as a provincial town, one of the five towns making up the tuman of Nakhjavan, with fine gardens, and producing good grapes, corn and cotton.


 * So it’s indeed of mixed Turko-Persian origin, as I was saying. Also note the name of Ust-Orda in Siberia, where indo-European languages came very late. Obviously it’s the same word of orda. Regards, Grandmaster 09:37, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Sumgait
Agree. You might like to add primarysources too. I will watch the article. - FrancisTyers 14:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Grandmaster 18:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Azarbaijan (Iran)
"If you revert again, I will ask for administrator interference. Show me a source, not written by Iranians.)"

I am not going to revert, but your threatening comments are not appreciated. Wikipedia is not yours. It is not YOU who anyone needs to show anything. I suggest you take a break instead of posting comments such as above. --K a s h Talk 20:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * GM, leave a comment at Talk:Azarbaijan (Iran) and request sources. I might get involved, but I'm pretty busy. Adios. &mdash; Khoikhoi 21:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Tabriz
Hi. What's your take on this? See also this? Pecher Talk 14:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Reverts
You don't need to revert every single edit I make. Sometimes discussions don't hurt. --K a s h Talk 09:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Neither do you. I don’t think your edits to Ismail and Azerbaijani people are justified. The paragraph that the anonymous user keeps inserting into the intro of Azerbaijani people was copied from another article and has no direct relevance to this article. Tombseye actually made a good attempt to incorporate that highly dubious statement into the relevant section of the article, and I cannot consider your revert of his edit without any explanation to be anything other than a POV push. The same with Ismail, the article was very well written by Saposcat, and your unsubstantiated removal of factually accurate info is not justified. I’m afraid I will have to take it to dispute resolution. Grandmaster 09:56, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You have to try to be more open minded about my edits and assume good faith, and I will try to do the same with yours. It doesn't matter who had edited or wrote the article before, Wikipedia is a place where anyone can edit, just as much as you didn't agree to some edit you reverted, I did the same. Hope we can work things out in talk pages more often! :) --K a s h Talk 16:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, I don’t want confrontation and I don’t think we have irreconcilable differences. I think the best thing to do is ask neutral editors for help. Take care. Grandmaster 17:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: Nakhichevan
Ah, I see. When I saw the word "persecution" Menteshashvili's text, I immediately thought of fighting between Armenians and Azeris. For some reason, I didn't think of Stalin's possible involvement.

I apologize if I'm being partial on my recent edits. I certainly hope this does not bring animosity between both of us. You seem to be quite knowledgeable on the subject of Azeri-Armenian relations. I respect that.

Regards, Clevelander 11:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Azerbaijani people
Hi, you violated the three-revert rule on Azerbaijani people. I have disabled your editing permissions for 24 hours. Please read our guide on dispute resolution during the time you are unable to contribute to Wikipedia. Feel free to return after your block expires, but take your differences to the talk page and please refrain from edit warring. Kcordina Talk 16:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi. I believe I’ve been blocked by a mistake. Please have a look at the history of Azerbaijani people.


 * My reverts:


 * 1st revert:


 * 2nd revert:


 * Even if you count the one below as a revert, which was done on 4th June (yesterday) in my time zone, it still does not make 4 reverts.


 * 


 * Please check again. Regards, Grandmaster 18:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, block is lifted, no problem. Grandmaster 19:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The above block, placed by myself, was given incorrectly. I made a mistake counting the reverts. Kcordina Talk 11:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * No problem. It was only 3 hours, so no big deal. Regards, Grandmaster 11:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Azeri problems
Hello GM. Yes, I see the article is in bad shape. I think this may be my next project (I was going to do Persians and History of Armenia, but perhaps they can wait a bit). I'll talk things through on the discussion page first and after the Iranian peoples and Watchmen (2 articles I want to see make it to featured article status), I'll start working on Azerbaijani people. Cheers. Tombseye 22:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey GM, I'm going to start working on Azerbaijani people tomorrow and will try to fix it up as much as possible. Will probably need yours (and other folks I listed on the discussion page) help as I go through. Probably won't please everybody, but will try to get a good concensus going. Cheers. Tombseye 06:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Altaic
Hey GM. No, what's disputed is the fact that Altaic is a valid language group, not that Azerbaijani is part of the Altaic group. Anyways, it's still being debated by linguists at the moment so we shouldn't say it's 100% sure for now. &mdash; Khoikhoi 05:28, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand, but it is disputed by a minority, see Britannica:


 * Altaic languages are spoken across Eurasia by more than 140 million people (the overwhelming majority of whom speak Turkic languages). Most scholars consider Altaic itself to be a family, of proven genetic relationship, though a minority attribute similarities in the languages to borrowings and areal convergence. Grandmaster 05:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, I guess I see what you're saying. It still is disputed though, isn't it? I think the only reason for removing it would be if there's an overwhelming majority that don't dispute it. &mdash; Khoikhoi 05:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we should find a way to say that it is disputed by a minority of scholars, as is clearly indicated by Britannica. It is indeed disputed, but it is a view of minority and should be attributed as such according to the rules. I don't know how to mention it the best way, though. Grandmaster 05:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Nizami
I am willing to compromise on Nizami, but this means not just me, but Mr. Baguirov. I'll keep the Iranian side happy. I do not think though the Christianity and Armenianness of Shirin has been doubted by serious scholars. I think the best would be: 1) Kurdish mother 2) Fathers name, but no ethnicity 3) contribution to Persian language and culture, I am willing to go short on the Persian poet although it is found in many many books. This is so to reach an agreement. 4) Born in Ganjah and his heritage is shared by Iran and Azarbaijan. 5) We can mention that Shirin was a Christian (which she definitely was), but the Armenian-ness we will leave out. Of course this is one time compromise, and if it doesn't work out, then I will have to again show the proofs from different texts.    --Ali doostzadeh 13:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, I'll get back to you soon. Grandmaster 16:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, well comeback soon.. else we can see arbitration. Also see my latest comment where Mr. Baguirov references a non-existence book by G. H. Darab.  Paul Smith has been emailed and will change that verse which did not exist as well.  --Ali doostzadeh 06:40, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I will wait till tommorow night and if nothing happens, then I will seek intervention. The fact of the matter is that no western scholar or even USSR scholar has called Nezami's father a Turk.  This is the issue and even if some former USSR scholars who had no choice, called Nezami's father an Azerbaijani, this is just geographical and not ethnic.  Either way I will wait till tommorow for you and Mr. Baguirov's response.  Then we will seek arbitration and I have sufficient sources to show Shirin was Armenian and also I have exposed many mistakes of Mr. Baguirov which shows that he lacks credibility to a large extent.  --Ali doostzadeh 07:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, you know I try to do my best to achieve a compromise in this dispute. But we may seek a mediation, because according to the rules before applying to arbitration we must go through all stages of dispute resolution. Grandmaster 12:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Azerbaijani people transformation
Hey GM. I don't know if you know, but I've been redoing Azeribaijani people quite a bit and I neede some help from you. Can you get pictures of regular Azeris that have no copyright problems that we could use on the page? It would help a lot as I whip it into shape in the next few days. I tried to keep whatever things were sourced and removed redundant and repeated information to provide clarity. anyway, let me know. Cheers. Tombseye 17:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, like for example on the Tamils page (a page I used as an example when I wrote Pashtun people) has examples of people who are Tamil. I mean something like that rather than just famous Azeris, although we could have one or two of them if it's what people want. So the article has pictures to go with the text. Something like that. I leave it to you to decide what might go well with the page. Thanks! Tombseye 19:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Very nice. I think I can find a place for it right now. That's a good start. Now we just need color pictures (hopefully) of modern Azeris and we'll be in business! Definitely find what you can. Cheers. Tombseye 20:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * More great pictures GM! I am using the Fuzuli picture under the language section which I have yet to write. Also, I may place Nizami in the article as well. Now we definitely need some females in the article just to be fair! Tombseye 22:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Say GM, tell me what you think of the section on Azeris in Azerbaijan in the Azeris article? I didn't want to go over stuff that will be covered in the culture section and other aspects so I wrote some general stuff. I'm not sure about it though. If you have any ideas or suggestions, I'd appreciate it. Thanks. Tombseye 06:14, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * What you think of these pictures courtesy of Baku87?


 * As for the Azeris in Azerbaijan, I think it’s good, but it also should be noted that Azeris have a high level of education, legacy of Soviet educational system, which was one of the best in the world, with almost 100% literacy. Also Azeris are one of the most Westernized and culturally advanced Muslim nations, and many things Azeris did first in the Muslim world. First democratic republic in the Muslim world was Azerbaijan Democratic Republic, established in 1918, composer Uzeyir Hajibeyov wrote the first opera in the Muslim world, and Azeris were the first Muslim nation who switched to Latin alphabet, we did it before Ataturk did it in Turkey. Other things should be covered in the relevant paragraphs. I can recommend some reference material on Azeri culture. Grandmaster 19:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'll add that info. Also, give me whatever references you have on Azeri culture as I'll be working on that as I try to finish the article. Those pictures from Baku87 look great. Can you upload them so that we can use them in the article? I think this article is going to look really great by the time we're done with it! Tombseye 19:38, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Tell me which ones you want and I’ll ask Baku87 to upload them to commons. Grandmaster 19:42, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, definitely these:, , , . I think we can most or all of them in the article. Definitely great stuff. I added most of what you asked for and will add the other stuff under the culture section later. The article's looking good and if we can just the vandals from destroying it, it might eventually shape up into a featured article! Tombseye 19:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Great, I'll ask Baku87 to upload them and will be watching the article too. It's indeed great. Grandmaster 19:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * This is an article about Azeri Turkic literature from encyclopedia Iranica. It’s quite good, but does not cover modern literature from Azerbaijan republic. Grandmaster 20:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Also I think the parallels with Lukashenko are out of place there. It does not add much to the article. Grandmaster 20:39, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Took out the Lukashenko comparison as its subjective. I'll put in the info. you gave me as well as other stuff I've found. Thanks! Tombseye 20:50, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Racist Paragraph
This paragraph in Iranian peoples promotes racial purity. The article needs a careful and thorough review.

Moreover, the Iraqi Kurds are an eclectic Iranian people who, although displaying numerous ethnolinguistic ties to other Iranian peoples (particular in their Iranian language, and some cultural traits), are believed to have mixed with Caucasian and Semitic peoples, while the Iranian Kurds are of more pure Iranian stock. Heja Helweda 16:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi. I’m not sure that it really had any racist intention, it just needs better wording. Grandmaster 16:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Need advice on Azeri media
Hey GM. I need some advice on the Azeri media, such as films and tv in the performance art section. It has to be brief, but to the point and relevant so can you tell me about some notable films and the broadcast situation etc. and which sites I can link as references? I would appreciate. Also, if you know of any Azeris in the Cinema of Iran that would help a lot as I know there are many azeris involved, but I don't know who as I just watch them because they get good critical reviews. Also, let me know as to current music scene of any suggestions as to what else I can. Thanks. Tombseye 19:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, I think with regard to music we should mention composers Uzeyir Hajibeyov, Gara Garayev and Fikret Amirov, who fused classical music with traditional Azerbaijani mugam. All three have international recognition, and I don’t think that Iran or even Turkey have classical composers of this caliber, but I don’t insist on that. Also it's worth to mention jazz musicians Vagif Mustafa Zadeh and his daughter Aziza Mustafa Zadeh, they fused mugam with jazz and the result is something unique. Both have international recognition. I can send you an mp3 file of Vagif's music, if you are not on dial up, you’ll see that it’s something really interesting. Also, tomorrow I will provide some info from the book of Moses of Kalankatuyk. I have access to his book online in Russian.


 * As for cinema and media, I’ll get back to you later. Grandmaster 19:51, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. I'll put in the info. asap. Thanks! Tombseye 19:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Also it’s worth mentioning singers Rashid Behbudov and Muslim Magomayev, they were popular outside of Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 05:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * With regard to modern Azeri literature, you can also mention Rustam Ibragimbekov, he’s known internationally as a screenwriter, and one of the films he wrote a script for won Oskar as best international film, another three were nominated for this prize. He writes in Russian, btw. Grandmaster 05:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay good to know. Also, the pictures of the market in Iran, is that a predominantly Azeri region? If so we could use that in the article, maybe replace the two guys next to the ship with it as there are already a lot of Azeri pics from Azerbaijan. What do you think? Also, I see Iranian peoples is slowly falling apart. Not surprising. I give it a few months before it is delisted as a FA. Too much emphasis on pan-Iranism. Well hopefully Azeris will have better luck. Cheers. Tombseye 18:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, Urmiye is predominantly Azeri region, we can replace the two guys with that one, it's also in public domain. As for Iranian peoples, it's indeed a pity, but one could see it's coming. I also hope we'll have better luck with Azeri people. Grandmaster 18:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Also some info on Azeri mass media.

The first Azeri newspaper was Ekinchi, published by Hasan Bay Zardabi since July 22, 1875. Recently, the government of Azerbaijan has decided to proclaim July 22 as the National Press Day. Molla Nasraddin was one of the most popular newspapers in Azerbaijan before the Russian revolution and remains influential to this day. See below two views, one Azeri, one Iranian. It's interesting that the article about cartoon in Iran refers to the magazine published in Baku in Azeri language, while Baku at the time was already a part of the Russian empire. Molla Nasraddin - The Magazine

Caricature and Cartoon in Iran With regard to the Azeri TV. This is the website of Azerbaijan state TV, but there are several private channels. 

The number of newspapers is impossible to count, there are hundreds of them, some are informative, some are just yellow press. The website of Ministry of communications, don’t know if it’s useful or not. 

The most famous Azeri cinema is Arshin mal alan, musical, based on the music by Uzeyir Hajibeyov. It has international recognition, but not in the West. But the popularity of this movie in Turkey, Iran, India and other countries of the world was tremendous. See more articles below. Maybe Ibragimbekov should be mentioned in the cinema section, as he’s the most famous Azeri cinematographer. Btw, www.azer.com is the best website about Azerbaijan, you can find information about everything related to Azerbaijan there, and it’s done very professionally.   Grandmaster 18:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, good stuff GM! I'll put what I can into the article, but it's gotten too big and I'm going to have to start reducing parts of it so that it can make it as a FA. I finished the Institutions section and tried to write about some of the current situations in Iran with some delicacy. Hopefully it will be okay as I put reputable sources in. Women next and then it's done! Tombseye 19:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Great. Btw, Ibragimbekov was successful not only in Soviet times, Burnt by the Sun won the Oscar in 1994, after the collapse of USSR. Grandmaster 19:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay. Tombseye 21:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh and I think we should probably just stick with the known academic views on the large Turkic settlement during the Oghuz period as even the Moses references seem to indicate minor Turkic incursions before the Oghuz and the more important indigenous Caucasians. I have emphasized that most references consider Azeris a Turkic people which is, of course, the norm in every reference book I've read though. Cheers. Tombseye 21:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * According to Britannica:


 * In ancient and early medieval times eastern Transcaucasia was populated by Iranian speakers, nomadic Turkic tribes, Kurds, and the Caucasian Albanians, who converted to Christianity in the 4th century and came under the cultural influence of the Armenians. After Arab incursions in the 7th century, Islamic polities were established under local rulers called shahanshahs. The Seljuq invasions in the 11th century changed the composition of the local population and resulted in the linguistic dominance of Oguz Turkic dialects.


 * Currently predominant view is that Turkic migrations to the region started around 3rd century A.D., but massive settlement of Turkic people and conversion of the local population to Turkic language occurred in 11th century with migration of Oghuz Turks. I think Turkic section is OK, you probably just need to more precisely mention that the Turkic presence in the region was quite long and predates 11th century. Grandmaster 04:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * And yes, I have yet to see a reliable academic source that classifies Azeris anything other than Turkic people. Grandmaster 04:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Nakhichevan
I've tried unsuccessfully a couple of times, there really is not much I can do if (both sides) continue to just ignore me and spam the talk page with lengthy quotations. I suspect both sides have something to hide as I rarely got a straight answer to my questions. I would recommend you take this to RfC. I would be willing to try mediation again with the following conditions. Both sides nominate a representative (I'd hope you and Fadix as you seem to be the most sane), then we go through it on the talk page, with me deleting anything I think is irrelevant. But as you can see, I requested sources from both sides and the turn out was derisory. - FrancisTyers · 09:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that’s reasonable. I don’t think other people would be happy to refrain from this discussion, but we can try to ask everybody to post only the relevant info (sources and not comments) on the subject and agree that you can delete everything you consider irrelevant. I have experience with RfC, and the response is very weak. It does not generate any interest of third party contributors. Grandmaster 09:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi and thanks for the question. There is a quite amount of Iranians with the last name Nakhjavani and Gharabaaghi.  Most of these were people that fled the 1918 revolution and the USSR take over of the caucus.   So they adopted these two last names.  Like general Gharabaaghi who was the late shah's most important general.  So these two names are not uncommon in Iran and it would be hard for me too trace them to a particular lineage like Khan Nakhjavani.  I had a friend who came from Nakhjavan, but unfortunately I lost contact with him.  Dehkhoda gives an etymology of Nakhjavan, and I will look into it tommorow.  I'll let you know if I find anything more.  But there is a very specialized book which I have not read, but it might help on the history of the region.  The author is Ja'far Jamshid Raad, and it was published in 2000 in Tehran by the Markaz-i asnaad va Tarikh-i Diplomasi, 2000.  The title of the book is Tarikh-e Siyaasi Nakhjavan (the political history of Nakhjavan).  --Ali doostzadeh 18:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Added Khazars as part of invaders list
Hello GM. I added the Khazars as part of the invasion list and have left everything else as is. The article is now much longer than any other ethnic group article so I want to avoid any additions as people can click on Khazars and read their activity in the Caucasus anyway. Have also resolved the disputes hopefully. Now we'll see if the article can make it as a FA. Cheers. Tombseye 06:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Great work. I hope the article will make it as a FA. Grandmaster 06:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks GM. Not to worry, I'll be around to help whenever it's needed. I just wanted to give more of an impression of impartiality and so I decided to not list myself as a member of the ethnic wikiprojects. Ciao. Tombseye 08:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay will add more pictures as per you suggestions. Thanks. Tombseye 16:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Block evasion
He's probably somebody, but there's not quite enough for me to do anything just yet. I'd recommend a request for checkuser for the time being. --InShaneee 18:44, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * But he does not have a registered account, what would checkuser prove? I think we should watch contributions of this anon, and see if he gives himself away. Regards, Grandmaster 19:44, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Baku coat of arms
I think I uploaded a Soviet version. Apparently currently the coat of arms has a blue background and sea waves below (small version at http://www.window2baku.com/Index.htm in the upper right corner). Thoughts? --Brand  спойт  01:59, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Brand. The one in the article about Baku is a coat of arms of tsarist Baku, the Soviet one is a little different, and the current one is that you found at the link you provided. I've been searching for a good image of the curent CoA for quite sometime already, but could not find one. See maybe you'll have better luck. Indeed, it has blue background and waves. Regards, Grandmaster 07:19, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Btw, your user page says you can be reached by e-mail, but you have not provided an address. Grandmaster 07:46, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've now provided a mail and sent a request to Zscout370 for drawing the modern emblem. --Brand  спойт  13:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Chess
Just a queston: are you a real chess GM? I myself love playing chess ... though I am not really a GM lol Do you have an ELO rating? A few years ago, when I had time to play "professionally" (in HH, Germany), I had an ELO rating of +/- 2050, my DWZ (German national rating system) being somewhere in between 1950 and 2100 ... not really "international class", but I was happy :) Maybe we could play some chess on Yahoo some time ;) Tājik 12:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Nizami
Hi GM,

Please look at the latest compromise and let me know what you think. Thanks. --Ali doostzadeh 14:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Armenia-Azərbaycan
I have seen couple pages that summarize (one two parag) the 1918-1922 period between these states. Is there an single page, or even a page that collects the links for unknowledge user to helping within this period? I wish someone can create Armenian-Azəri war 1918-1922, such as Georgian-Armenian War 1918. What do you think?--OttomanReference 22:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Good idea. Currently we are busy with Nagorno-Karabakh and Nakhichevan pages, but I think we will do that in near future. Regards, Grandmaster 04:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Ismail
Ah, I see. What do you think of my new pictures? &mdash; Khoikhoi 19:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * They are good, I think we can use them in Azerbaijani people and History of Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 19:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Mosque picture Khoikhoi uploaded question
Hey GM, what is the name of this mosque and where is it? Was gonna add it to the Azeris page. Let me know. Thanks. Tombseye 05:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It is Teze Pir mosque in Baku, the main mosque of the city. Grandmaster 05:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Cool deal. Nice looking building. I added another reference and I'll leave it alone at this point and see what else Tigran comes up. Hopefully not much else! Tombseye 05:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think there are too many people with beards, chalmas, etc in the article, which may create a wrong impression of Azerbaijan, which is a strongly secular state. I don’t mind inclusion of a mosque, but in my opinion it should be balanced with other aspects of life in Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 05:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You mean get rid of Khamanei? I'd be okay with it, but we'd probably need a picture of Azeris in Iran, something we still don't have to replace it with. Maybe I can bring back Samad and replace Khamanei with him? Tombseye 05:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No, let him stay. I mean the pictures of Azeris from Azerbaijan. Actually, looks OK, not too much on religious side. We should avoid that, because Azerbaijan is different from Iran. Grandmaster 05:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah I know. The guys in the hats give the article a great look at the start. I don't think people will misunderstand the differences as the article talks about it several times and the pictures of Azeris in Azerbaijan look very different from the Iranians. I agree that we should avoid too much emphasis on religion given the differences in the Azeri views. Tombseye 05:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree. Grandmaster 05:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * What do you think of the source that I provided on your talk? Is it worth adding or we can do without it? Grandmaster 05:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I would have added the Iranica source, but I responded quickly to Tigran and added some other source I found. Unless someone complains I say we leave it. Man, trying to turn this article into a Featured Article is a lot of work! Not surprising given the controversy. Hopefully, once all the problems are taken care of, there won't be any more edit wars or problems. Well at least for a while. Tombseye 06:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it’s a very difficult task to extensively cover the topic and avoid possible controversies. But you may have noticed that some of the disputes have no real ground and are more of a nationalistic POV issues. In such cases a good reference should be enough. Grandmaster 06:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Btw, there are better pics of Aziza Mustafa Zadeh at her website, maybe we can use them instead of the current one? For example, or  Grandmaster 06:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I expected a lot of nationalist POV from everyone and I've tried to keep it academic and use references. Hopefully, it'll all work out soon. I have no problem with those pictures, man she's pretty hot! But what about copyright issues? Aren't those pictures copyrighted and thus can't be used by us? If they not, then I'd be okay with one of those pictures instead. Tombseye 06:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think we are allowed to use promotional pictures, there’s a special tag for that. But I need to check with Khoikhoi, he might be more knowledgeable on the subject. Grandmaster 06:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, let me know. Tombseye 06:31, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey Grandmaster, yes you can. Either try or. I'm not sure which one. &mdash; Khoikhoi 21:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Great new picture of Aziza. I think I'm in love. What is it with the chicks from the former Soviet Union that makes them so hot? Ah, that's a rhetorical question. ;) Tombseye 09:43, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * There's another picture of her, which I absolutely don't recomend to use in the article. I mean the cover of the album Seventh Truth. It was quite controversial at the time. Grandmaster 09:48, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Cool, she's controversial. My kind of woman. Heh heh. Anyway, hopefully the article will be done soon. Met with Tigran's criticisms and talked to Tony following more edits. Hopefully, we're close to the end! Tombseye 09:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That would be really nice. It's about time, I think overall the article is very good, maybe just some edits to satisfy literary style fans. Grandmaster 10:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I removed the pictures for the time being. We can put them back once we've gotten an admin to help us with the Aziza picture and see what else we can do. For the time being, let's leave it as we want the article to make it to Featured Article status. We can worry about pictures after. Also, I've simply inserted brief mention of the Armenian Kingdom and left out the details because we can't really go into much since one person has already complained that the article is too long and I worked to shorten it considerably through restructuring the references. In addition, I simply put that parts of Azerbaijan were controlled by the Armenian kingdoms so that should suffice. I would suggest any detailed mention such as the Iranica reference to be put in both the Armenian Kingdom and History of azerbaijan articles though. Anyway, hopefully we'll get this article passed asap. Thanks! Tombseye 20:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * OK. Grandmaster 20:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

NK
I will try my best, and as to "What is it with the chicks from the former Soviet Union that makes them so hot?" that question, I'd love to know the answer ^___^ - FrancisTyers · 07:56, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I would love to know the answer myself, but that’s a difficult question. I know many expatriates in Baku, and many of them married local women. I think it has something to do with the fact that people are attracted to those with different cultural background or those who are somehow different from them. But it’s really hard to tell.


 * Btw, what do you think of Azerbaijani people? Tombseye completely rewrote that controversial article to take into account all conflicting views, and nominated it to FA status. You may wish to comment as well. See Featured_article_candidates/Azerbaijani_people Grandmaster 09:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Please do not make Personal Attacks
This is a personal attack and very uncivil []. Consider youself warned. Be polite and keep all comments directed towards edits. You have no right to make such accusations and additionally no grounds. I will let it pass as a warning and act in good faith and consider it an honest mistake on your part. Regards 69.196.164.190

GA nom for Nagorno-Karabakh War
You're probably right that the article has NPOV problems. Still, a very interesting article, and I hope to see it reach WP:FA. Twinxor t 07:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the barnstar!
Whew, I'm glad that's over. Well, great news indeed as Azeris is a featured article. Now the only problem remains keeping it that way. Hopefully, your wikiproject can work on that. Well the other good thing is that we managed to put together an article that everyone could agree upon and I'm glad I could help to resolve the disputes that took place before my re-write of the article. Thanks for helping with the article and indeed just let me know when you need help and I'll do what I can. Cheers. Tombseye 18:39, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the great work. The article is indeed very balanced and well written. The only thing that I don't like about wikipedia is that once you created an article you have to constantly watch it to keep free of poor edits. But we of course will be watching it. Take care. Grandmaster 18:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Please Stop your Attacks
As you seem to be an experianced editor, you do not need me to tell you what is civil and uncivil and what are acceptable forms of behaviour and what are unacceptable behaviour. Please stop your attacks and demaing me. I have warned you and Acted in good faith, but you contiNue you uncivil acusations. If you have concenerns go to an adMin, but you have no right to be uncivil And accuse me of being anti-Azari, especially without proof. Consider this your last warning from me. As you are already aware I have notified the admininStrators. After this I will just ignore you and report you for trolling. PlEase be civil. Regrads 69.196.164.190

Once Again: Please Remain Civil
This comment by you: [] was uncaled for uncivil.

As I have written on the talk page;

Please remain civil, we want civil discourse here. I am sorry that you are getting upset, but you do not need to address others in an aggressive tone. Your comments were not civil.Your statment: "You talk about the things you have no idea about," was not civil. Keep your comments directed to material or editing, not to individuals. I do not need to warn you as you already know the guide lines for orderly behaviour. I will overlook your uncivil comment and give you a warning. As for the issue; I am fully aware about the issue at hand, one can be excused for coming to the conclusion that maybe certain editors do not know what they are talking about in Wikipedia or maybe they do, but want edits in articles based on POV. In practice NKOA is not a part of the Republic of Azarbaijan (Arran). Once agains, if you want the introduction changed GM, you must demonstate that NKOA is not an independent state (in practice), please. Demonstrate it and the introduction will be changed. And please be civil about it. Thank you.'''

Regards. 69.196.164.190

Georgia
Hi Grandmaster, can I ask you to take part in ongoing voting on Talk:Georgia (country)? The argument is to move Georgia (country) to Georgia and make it a search criterion. I will be very grateful if you can find time for it. All the best, --Kober 09:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot, Grandmaster. I really appreciate your support.--Kober 10:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

E-mail
Hi. I temporarily can't access my two e-mails at gmail and yandex so please write at togrulsafarov@yahoo.com or simply switch to my talk page. Regards, --Brand  спойт  21:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Turkish theory
Hello Grandmaster. I would like to inform you that i started a discussion about the theory, which everyone ignored (For reasons i dont know), so after waiting a day or two, i wrote down that if no one objected, i would assume that people agreed with me, and again i waited one more day just to make sure. then after that, i took action. if you would like to discuss the issue with me, we can here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Azerbaijani_people#The_Turkish_Theory

Thanks.Khosrow II 15:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

NK
Hey man, have you finished with the timeline. i.e. does it include every event leading up to the creation of the NKAO that you find important? - FrancisTyers · 12:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Please come and make your preferences known. - FrancisTyers · 15:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey man, please let me know what you think about:

The region became a source of dispute between Armenia and Azerbaijan when both countries gained independence in 1918. When the Bolsheviks took the region over two years later, they initially placed Nagorno-Karabakh under the control of Armenia, this was later reversed, and it was placed under the control of Azerbaijan. The Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast was established in the Azerbaijan SSR in 1923.

As a reminder, we've been discussing this sentence for about 9 days now. I didn't think it could be done, but I think that "placed under the control of" is even more neutral than "granted" or "transferred". - FrancisTyers · 15:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I really appreciate your efforts to help find compromise wording and understand that it might be really tiresome to be engaged in such a prolonged discussion, but you are probably aware that this issue is one of the most disputed in the history of NK, and if we can come up with a line that suited both sides it would be real achievement we can be proud of. As far as I know no one else has managed to do that so far. On the other hand, I don’t think that it is possible to fit the description of this dispute into one or two lines, and this endless dispute actually started when someone tried to insert this line into the intro. It might be a good idea to leave it out of the intro as I suggested before, because that way we can present all the info in much detail in the text of the article. I only try to keep the article factually accurate, and don’t make claims that I cannot support by reliable sources. But I cannot agree to any wording that misrepresents the situation and contradicts the historical documents. I think transferred was better, btw, as “placed under control” creates illusion that NK was not under Azerbaijani control before. Grandmaster 07:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Nakhichevan
Hey, GM. I asked you this on the talk page, but you didn't get the note it seems. Anyway, could you give me the page number from the Potier book where that paragraph is specfically mentioned? Thanks! -- Clevelander 19:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Please see page 4. Grandmaster 20:16, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks! -- Clevelander 12:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Khosrow II
... is really getting anoying on the Azerbaijani people page. If he continues to mess up the article with poor and unnecessairy edits, we should at least consider reporting him as an alternative option. Tājik 13:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with you. I think every aspect of Azeri people has been included in the article and there's no need for repetitive edits. We cannot report him for editing the article, unless he breaks any rules, so we should just keep the article up to the standards of the featured article. I think we can do that by joining our forces, at the same time we should keep on explaining to him that he should not mess up the featured article. Take care. Grandmaster 15:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, he has just broken the 3RR. As for his "right to edit": it absolutely does not matter whether the "Turkic theory" is wrong, right, proven, or disproven. The only thing that matters is Wikipedia's NPOV position, which is simply naming and explaining the theory. Maybe we could add a sentense regarding the view of professional scollars in this issue, but simply saying that this or that theory "was proven wrong" is clearly POV and needs to be removed. The user continues to add this POV into the article, despite quite a few warnings and reverts ... this can be interpreted as vandalism. Anyways, thanks for your help to keep the article "clean". Have a nice day. Tājik 17:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we may need to ask Tombseye to have a look at the article. And since 3RR was broken, the appropriate measures should be taken. Grandmaster 17:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Usage of Azeri spelling
Привет! Есть такой вопрос. Почему во многих статьях про Азербайджан азербайджанские имена транслитерируются на английский через русский (например: Muslim Magomayev a не Müslüm Maqomayev)? Ведь, скажем турецике имена передаются на английский язык со всеми дополнительными символами... --Untifler 15:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Вопрос весьма спорный (смотри обсуждение Ilham Aliyev). Я лично предпочитаю английскую транслитериацию, чтобы англоязычный читатель мог прочесть имя правильно. Транслитерацию на родном языке лучше предоставить в заглавной строке, это все-таки английская вики. Grandmaster 15:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Да уж, спорный: как всегда появляются представители 2-х партий, как правило, одни - носители английского или языков, не использующих латинский алфавит. Другие - как раз представители тех народов, которые используют т.н. "расширенную латиницу". Поэтому чтобы споров не возникало, необходимо выработать что-то типа: Naming conventions (Cyrillic), но только например: Naming conventions (Azeri).
 * Хочу прояснить свою позицию по данному вопросу. По скольку по роду интересов в английской википедии приходится работать с татарскими именами (татарский в миру хоть и использует по большей части кириллицу, в интеренете латиница всё-же развита лучше), то для передачи татарских имён латинскими буквами стараюсь использовать сетевую татарскую латиницу, которая очень похожа на азербайджанский, за исключением того, что не имеет раз ве что буквы Ә. Предлагаю следующий подход: всё-таки использовать азербайджанское написание.Но в самом начале каждой статьи давать "спеллинг" на англйском (типа Quliyev - gool-ee-ef) и совсем строго в IPA.. Просто траслитерация, которой вы пользуетесь отображает как "англофонам надо стараться произносить азербайджанские имена с русским произношением". Ведь наверняка в самом азербайджанскомq и g не очень-то близкие звуки (а как звучит ваша речь я знаю не понаслышке :))) ). Да и потом, мне лично не понятно, почему турки, немцы и поляки могут использовать свои значки в английском тексте, а азербайджанская латиница, скажем, второсортная. --Untifler 12:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * P.S. Даже если будете делать английский вариант, не забудте делать redirect с азербайджанского произношения. Вики-то конечно, английская, а вот имена всё-же азербайджанские.
 * PPS Для того, чтобы иностранцам не путаться с вашими буквами, есть Template


 * Между прочим, будучи написанным Ilham Aliyev, азербайджанский президент читается на английском также, как и на азербайджанском. Но вот Rasizade произносится "рәси-ЗЕЙД"... Так что англофонам Rasizade никак не подойдёт... Но вообще, для порядка, можно каждой букве азербаджанского поставить в соответствие другую букву английского алфавита, в случае, если такокй юуквы в английском нет. Но С и Х должны остаться С и Х. в конце концов, любой кто интересуется, может зайти на статью Azerbaijani alphabet, или же в заголовке каждой статьи можно давать произношение этого имени в IPA. --Untifler 12:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Спасибо за полезную информацию. Мне все-таки кажется, что надо исходить из того, что целевой аудиторией данной энциклопедии являются обычные англоязычные обыватели, а не продвинутые спецы. Они не станут разбираться во всех тонкостях нашей латиницы, они пришли сюда за конкретной информацией. Поэтому заголовок статьи должен быть написан так, как он пишется в западной прессе, а транслитерация на родном языке должна идти следом. Таким образом мы облегчим жизнь читателям. Естественно, redirect с азербайджанского произношения имен есть практически по всем биографическим статьям, как например Ilham Aliyev. На мой взгляд, наша цель состоит в том, чтобы предоставить англоязычному читателю информацию об Азербайджане, и в наших интересах сделать это таким образом, чтобы она была доступной для каждого читателя. В конце концов, мы ведь не пишем английские имена в английской транслитерации в азербайджанской вики, почему здесь должно быть наоборот? Должен отметить, что мнения по данному вопросу среди азербайджанских участников разделились, но большинство поддерживает английскую транслитерацию. Кстати, я также против того, чтобы поляки, немцы и другие использовали свою транслитерацию, у меня возникают проблемы с прочтением имен, так как я не владею этими языками. С уважением, Grandmaster 19:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Да, действительно, если в англоязычной прессе это имя в такой транскрибции уже примелькалось, то бессмысленно пользоваться какой-то другой. Но если речь идёт о сравнительно малоизвестных именах, то готов поспорить. Английский язык так устроен, что никакая трансКРИБЦИЯ (попытка передать имя при помощи правил чтения английского языка) не передаст правильно азербайджанское имя. Транслитерация - это способ передачи имён, когда только тем буквам, которых нет в английском ставится в соответсвие сочетание английских букв. как мне кажется, транслитерация наилучший вариант, даже лучше чем использование ə, ö и т.п. Точно также, по мойму, с помощью азербайджанского алфавита бесполезно передавать английские имена, а лучше всего давать их в английском написании... Но это дело традиций. Между прочим специально изучал ситуацию. Литовский и латышский языки устроены так, что искажают имена. поэтому иностранные имена на этих языках транскрибируются. кстати как и в албанском. Но! Латышские, литовские, албанские имена передаются в английском и др. латинопишущих языках, прямо как пишутся в этих языках, со всеми штучками, галочками и точками.


 * Всё-таки мне непонятна ситуация. В турецком, самом близком к азербайджанскому языке, эта ситуация реализуется по другому... Кстати, такой вопрос, касается традиций: как на азербайджанской кириллице пишутся русские имена, содержащие буквы, которых не было в азербайджанском алфавите. (В татарском русские имена пишутся безо всяких изменений. неудивительно, что и в латинском алфавите иностранные имена пишутся как в языках-источниках) --Untifler 12:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Извините за поздний ответ, был очень занят. Русские имена, как и любые другие, пишутся так же, как слышатся. Т.е. Ярослав будет Yaroslav, Ульяна будет Ulyana. С турецким кстати есть те же проблемы, что и с азербайджанским. Англичане читают название Ceyhan как Сейхан, хотя правильно Jeyhan/Джейхан. Поэтому я сторонник того, чтобы имя писалось по английски, а национальный спеллинг шёл следом. Grandmaster 10:45, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Извините, я имел в виду немножко другое. Как будут писаться русские имена в азербайджанской кириллице. Например имена Илья, Ярослав и тд. ведь в азербайджанской кириллице не было я, ь ? (Мне это было давно интересно). Скажем, как по азербайджански, на кириллице и на латинице пишется "Адольф Гитлер", "Уильям Шекспир"? и т.п.
 * Может быть то, что вы предлагаете - более рациональнол, чем есть на самом деле. Но в странах использующих латинский алфавит уже сложилось это взаимонеудобное правило. Французские названия во всех языках пишутся как во фрацузском, английские как в английском, турецкие как в турецком, эстонские как в эстонском. Всё-таки странно, что в азербайджанском языке такое правило не сложилось. Кстати, проводились ли какие-нибудь голосования азербайджанских википедистов по этому вопросу? Может быть есть какя-то позиция по этому вопросу у ответственных органов, например у Академии Наук Азербайджана? --Untifler 13:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * На нашей латинице это пишется как Адолф/Adolf, Уилjам/Uilyam и т.д. Насколько мне известно, никакой позиции по данному поводу у азербайджанских отвественных органов нет, а сайт президента страны пишет его имя на английском в английской транслитерации. Голосования среди азербайджанских википедистов не проводилось, но судя по тому как они голосовали при обсуждении статьи Ilham Aliyev, большинство все-таки за использование английской транслитерации, хотя есть и несогласные. Grandmaster 09:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Please.
Stop replying to Tabib. Please. If not, we might as well consider this mediation over. - FrancisTyers · 14:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Rembranth
This person seems to be a north azeri, and he is continuously vandalizing the Tabriz rug article. He wont listen to reason, and since you are also azeri yourself i suggest you talk to him and calm him down. he is running on a thin line. It also seems that he as many different user names which he uses to vandalize several articles. I suggest you inform him that this isnt a place to be playing games. thanks.Khosrow II 15:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

History of Nagorno-Karabakh
I've blocked you and User:Eupator for 12 hours for edit warring. - FrancisTyers · 20:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, but I did not break the 3RR. And also, I don't understand why Eupator is removing the references that I provided, in particular the circular by colonel D. I. Shuttleworth of the British Command. In my opinion, it is a clear attempt to supress information that does not suit his POV. Maybe the warning to both sides would be enough, since 3RR was not broken? Grandmaster 21:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd consider lifting the ban if you'd agree to not revert and discuss on the talk page. For the remaining 10 hours or something. After all, bans are preventative not punative. - FrancisTyers · 21:51, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Azeris
Yes I've noticed some changes all round. I'll take a look when I get the chance. I knew it couldn't last. No matter how well it's written or numerous sources used, people still decide to change the articles. Very frustrating. I'll see what I can do. ;) Tombseye 21:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Please do. I don't think that some of the recent changes were factually accurate and in conformity with NPOV rules. Thanks in advance. Grandmaster 21:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Olive branch?
Hey GM, I apologize for re-adding the Georgian prof to the Nakhichevn article and for "weaseling my way out" of providing sources. I should have also paid more attention to Adil's original note regarding the Georgian prof's quote. Anyway, I want to extend an olive branch to you, so that we can work together constructively on the Nakhichevan article. I also promise to cross-reference Walker's assertions and see if they are valid and I promise to do this before adding information such as this next time. Cheers! Your colleague, Clevelander 14:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem. I think this the approach we should adopt to dealing with controversial articles. If the information has real grounds, it should appear in more than one neutral reputable source. In that case there should be no edit conflicts. Grandmaster 17:17, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Invitation
Thanks a lot for your invitation. I've been thinking myself about joining for a while, however, I don't believe that I am ready to provide commitment to the project and by joining would only create room for potential misunderstandings and unsatisfied expectations. If you don't mind, I'd rather prefer to contribute on a non-regular basis, since I am short on time during most of the year except these few summer months.--Mika 14:43, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, joining does not imply any obligations whatsoever, but it is entirely up to you. You may wish to keep an eye on the project page and noticeboards to follow the new developments. Take care. Grandmaster 19:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've decided to join and added myself to the project.

Languages
Hi There! Can you translate my name in what language you know please, and then post it Here. I would be very grateful if you do (if you know another language apart from English and the ones on my userpage please feel free to post it on) P.S. all th translations are in alpahbetical order so when you add one please put it in alpahbetical order according to the language. Thanks!!! Abdullah Geelah 16:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Grandmaster Do you have good sources in Baku??
I want some pictures from the Republic of Azarbaijan and feedback.

Is that alright?

69.196.164.190

Azeris migration vs. invasion
Well different sources say different things on the subject. Britannica calls it a series of migrations. Prof. Tadeusz Swietochowski (whose book I referenced on the Azeri page quite a bit) simply refers to the Turks as entering the region and merging with Iranians (he means Iranian Azerbaijan I believe). The US Library of Congress calls it an invasion. So there you have it, quite a bit of diverse views. I believe simply saying entered the country is the most neutral way of putting it given the various terminology in use. Iranica (Azerbaijan-Islamic history page 228) simply refers to Alp Arslan take-over by defeating the Shaddadids. They set-up a feudal system in which Turkic overlords were given positions of power and who ruled the area and conducted a perpetual raids against the Armenians and Georgians (for being Christian it seems). So, in effect, ruling dynasties change hands. Once the Seljuqs overthrew the Arabs they simply took-over what they once ruled and then sent Turks (as well as voluntary migrants) to the region. Anyway, hope this helps. Tombseye 22:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that’s fine. My concern is maintaining the featured standard of the article. In my opinion, the major problem in wiki is that it’s not enough to create a good article, you need to constantly look after it to protect it from poor and POV edits. Btw, did you check the book Borders and Brethren: Iran and the Challenge of Azerbaijani Identity by Brenda Shaffer? Very interesting source, in my opinion. Grandmaster 08:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey GM. Yes I know it's hard to maintain an article when people reads parts of it and then decide something is wrong. The article has tons of references for every little thing and people still complain or find something they don't like. Since I worked on it I find myself checking on it every time I come on wikipedia, even though lately I've been busy so I haven't been around. You know how that goes. So hopefully everyone can 'guard' it I guess unless there is a valid complaint (of which I've seen very few). Yes I skimmed Shaffer's book and used it as a reference. It is a good book. Tombseye 08:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm keeping an eye on the article, but it is not easy to explain to some people that one should not make poor edits to an article that has a featured article status. Take care. Grandmaster 08:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey GM. Do you still have Shaffer's book? I need you to look up pages 221-225 (the section is called "The Azerbaijani Population" and explains why the Azeri population might be as high as 33% of the total. I can't get the book again because someone has checked it out from the library but if you have it then you can relate that information here. Thanks. Tombseye 18:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I don’t have that book at hand. I read some excepts from it and found it very interesting. Grandmaster 04:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Re: Nakhichevan
I outlined an objective yesterday (which I archived so you might not've seen it), that we discuss our changes on the history section BEFORE adding them. Both you and Tigran seem to have ignored this. Like it or not, the article looks like it's going to be protected soon. This would not be the worst thing as then we can discuss our changes with some civility and not engage in revert wars. -- Clevelander 11:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to "suppress" anything. I don't see why you can't discuss your changes before adding them.  -- Clevelander 11:30, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * What do I have to discuss? Please restore my additions and we will discuss how to better incorporate them into the article. Grandmaster 11:36, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Re: Karki
Alright, looking back at this and my response, I think that I responded poorly at best (mostly because I was half-awake when I wrote my reply which was around 7:00 this morning here in the eastern United States). I didn't read your quote and I apologize for the confusion, etc. Truce? -- Clevelander 13:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure. But please be more accurate with you references, you damage your reputation every time you provide unverifiable info. Take care, I gotta go now. My working day is over. Grandmaster 13:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

number of Oghuz
Hey Grandmaster. Because of our discussions a few weeks ago, I think you might be interested in this extract of the article "Saljuqs" from the Encyclopaedia of Islam:

"... We need not assume that the actual numbers of the Turkmens were very large, for the ways of life possible in the steppes meant that there were natural and environmental limitations on the numbers of the nomads. Yuri Bregel has implied, working from the 16,000 Oghuz mentioned by the Ghaznawid historian Bayhaki as present on the battle field of Dandankan (Tarikh-i Masudi, Tehran 1324/1945, 619), that we should probably assume, in this instance, a ratio of one fighting man to four other members of the family, yielding some 64,000 Turkmens moving into Khurasan at this time (Turko-Mongol influences in Central Asia, in R.L. Canfield (ed.), Turko-Persia in historical perspective, Cambridge 1991, 58 and n. 10). ..."

So, the Encyclopaedia of Islam estimates the total number of Oghuz Turcomans at the time of the Seljuqs to be less than 100.000 ... comparing this to the actualy population of Persia or the Islamic world (Baghdad had a population of 200.000 at that time), I would not call this a "mass migarion". And since only a part of these Turcomans actually followed the Seljuqs to Anatolia (many Turcomans satyed in Central-Asia and Khurasan, including the ancestors of modern Turkmens, Khorassani-Turks, or the - now - Persian-speaking Bayat, Afshar, or Qajar Turks, the actual number of Turcomans in Anatolia and Azerbaijan was not more than 20.000 (probably only 4-6.000 fighting men).

That's why the turkification of Anatolia began AFTER the fall of the Seljuqs. Anatolia - which was previously Roman-Christian - was almost depopulized after the attack of the Muslim-Seljuq forces; many Christians had fled to Europe. There were no native noble families left (unlike in Persia, Iraq, or Africa), and after the fall of the Seljuqs, power in Anatolia shifted to the only remaining "noble families": the Turcoman Beyliqs.

I hope this was helpful.

Tājik 13:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Tajik, it is very interesting, but we cannot discard Britannica, Iranica and other sources. They say that Turkification started in Seljuq time. I've been discussing this with Ali, and we agreed on that. It does not mean that it completed in Selquq time, it was a long process, but that's when it started, most sources agree on that. Grandmaster 18:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I do understand your point. My point, however, was something totally different. While you were talking about the actual Turkification of the population, I was talking about systematic mass-turkification and about the identity of the House of Seljuq. The Encyclopaedia of Islam confirms that Turkic migration into Azerbaijan and Arran had started even before the Seljuq dynasty (for example during the campaigns of the Ghaznavids or Mameluks, whose armies consisted of Turkish warriors), however, since these dynasties were totally Persianized (that means that except for a alleged apical ancestors, there was no Turkic identity among the rulers), this influx of Turkic peoples - as nomads - was more or less unimportant. The fall of the Seljuqs and the rise of the Turcoman chiefs, on the orther hand, marked the systematic Turkification of the population. As you can see, this does not contradict Britannica at all. It's only a more detailed explanation.
 * The study also disproves the claim of a "mass migration" ... the number of Turkic nomads - like ALL nomanic peoples of Central Asia (including the ancient Iranians, Indo-Aryans, etc) - was very small compared to the urban populations of Iran and Mesopotamia. That's why most of the ruling houses were sooner or later totally assimilated by the majority, especially because they needed the established administartion structure. Only the soldiers and clans preserved their language and identity.
 * Tājik 02:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Nakhichevan pictures
Grandmaster could you upload some pictures of Nakhichevan (if you have any)? Thanks! -- Clevelander 18:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures of the region. I was there only once in my life. Grandmaster 09:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Cool!
Hey, great user page, congrats! ;)  Kerten k e le b e k        Ⓣ 08:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Grandmaster 08:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Deal?
GM, I want to make a deal with you. I'll promise that the Latin transliteration for the Armenian name of Nakhichevan will not be included in the Nakhichevan article (the Armenian translation will stay, as will the Russian, Turkish, and Persian translations). In return, I wish that you not include the Azeri translation for the name Zangezur (which I promise will remain on the page). Does this sound kosher? -- Clevelander 12:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that we either include Armenian names to Azeri locations and vice versa, or we don't. It is not a unique situation, I've been trying to resolve the issue for quite a while already. There are similar problems with Greek and Turkish names, etc. See it being discussed here: Naming conventions (Greek and Turkish named places). So I want us to decide on one of the two options: either we include the names in both languages, or we include them only in the official language of the country. Grandmaster 12:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * See the Syunik talk page for an alternate proposal of mine. -- Clevelander 13:14, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality Tag
Please stop putting the tag on the controversy section of the Azerbaijani people article. The only thing you disputed was the name Arran being used, and i changed it so that the reader knows that other names were also applied, such as albania, armenia, georgia, shirvan, etc... what else are you disputing?Khosrow II 04:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I dispute neutrality of that section. That section is a blatant violation of NPOV rules. I suggect you check them. Grandmaster 04:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * why dont you tell me what is POV about it and i will fix it. we cant fix the problem if we dont know whats wrong. i believe you are just trying to do everything in your power to discredit the section. i actually dont believe you have POV issues with it. if you do, please tell me whats wrong and i will change it. first you said the reason you disputed it was because Arran was not the only name applied to the region, and i changed it to be more open. now whats your problem?Khosrow II 14:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Nakhichevan
Hey Grandmaster, I was wondering if you saw the culture section that I posted on the Nakhichevan talk page. Be sure to give me your feedback. Thanks! -- Clevelander 11:23, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Sagol
istedim diyem saghol, chox saghol, azerbaijan haqqinda meqalelere gore

Notability
Hi there; I have removed the tag.--Anthony.bradbury 22:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Ordubada
I think that I got that variant as a result of a mis-translation of my reading Brockhaus - my Russian's a bit rusty. I'll cut that out. -- Clevelander 02:22, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Unspecified source for Image:Govhar-Aga.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Govhar-Aga.jpg. I notice the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this file yourself, then there needs to be a justification explaining why we have the right to use it on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you did not create the file yourself, then you need to specify where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the file also doesn't have a copyright tag, then one should be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the GFDL-self tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Fair use, use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags. See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following [ this link]. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sherool (talk) 16:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Burunduk
Hi, Grandmaster. At first, I should state that I could not find any dictionary entries for Caran D'ache. I think it's only a trade mark. So, I had to remove it. But I found a new word and I'm not sure about the etymology of it. The word is simply Burunduk, a kind of squirrel found mainly in North-East Europe and Siberia. To tell in Russian "Бурундук, азиатский бурундук (Eutamias sibiricus)". But I'm not sure about the origin of the word, it could be of Mari origin, or it could stem from Turkic languages. Could you help me find the definite etymology of the word? The English counterpart of the word is Borunduk or Baronduki. Istanbul'dan çok selamlar!

Vasmer's Etymological Dictionary - Burunduk

Cultinfo.ru - Burunduk

Chapultepec 00:55, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think I found some sources. So you don't need to take actions. Thanks.
 * Chapultepec 19:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Great. I think your first source supports Turkic etimology of the word. Grandmaster 04:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey!
How have you been? I recently created an article about İsgəndər Həmidov—you heard of him? If so, is there anything that you think should be added? &mdash; Khoikhoi 05:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I noticed that one. Whenever you create a new Azerbaijan-related article, please announce it at Portal:Azerbaijan/New article announcements. I need to do some research on the topic. But I know that he was pardoned and released from the prison a couple of years ago. Grandmaster 05:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I'll know to do that next time. &mdash; Khoikhoi 06:28, 14 September 2006 (UTC)