User talk:Graphic3211

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You erroneous "corrections" for Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron Three
You have been changing mention of the destroyers "Peary or Pillsbury" contending they had left the area on 26 December 1941. The reference, written by Captain Robert J. Bulkley (not Bulkeley), Jr. USNR (Retired) and published by the Naval History Division is found on page 6 under the heading "4. THE FLEET WITHDRAWS" and clearly covers actions based out of Sisiman Bay on the the Bataan Peninsula after the withdrawal from Cavite and before those destroyers withdrew. The section opens with actions out of Sisiman Bay and closes with descriptions of the state after the fleet withdraws. The exact text is with my emphasis:


 * The first few weeks at Sisiman Bay were discouraging. The squadron took over a small fishing dock and a few native nipa huts ashore. Each morning John Bulkeley visited headquarters to receive orders for the night's operations. The boats made routine, nonproductive patrols of the Bataan coast north of Manila Bay, and along the Batangas Peninsula to the south, as far as Verde Island. Doctrine demanded that PT's patrol in two- or three-boat sections, so that if one boat should find itself in trouble, there would be another at hand to give assistance. But because there were so few boats, so few spares, so little gasoline, prudence had to make concessions. Seldom could more than one PT be spared for a patrol. Often one PT was accompanied by a YP, a small patrol vessel, either the Maryanne, the Perry, or the Fisheries II, or, until they departed from the area, one of two four-stack destroyers, the Pillsbury and the Peary. As the Japanese closed their net, nerves became tense and there were false reports of sightings along the Bataan coast. Many fruitless PT searches resulted.

Please read references before finding text that "disagrees with the Wikipedia pages for those ships" and changing clearly cited text. Palmeira (talk) 16:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

other sources
I don't doubt your source says that, but many other sources have different information, including the Wiki pages for the Peary and the Pillsbury. It is also possible that the Pillsbury assisted MTBS 3 from 10 Dec 1941 until 26 Dec 1941 December 1941, but both ships left Manila Bay by 26 Dec 1941. Peary and Pillsbury were under repair from damage sustained on 10 Dec 1941 aerial bombing of Cavite were complete, Peary much more severely than Pillsbury. According to records, MTBS 3 did not begin offensive operations until at least 24 Dec 1941, so assistance from Peary or Pillsbury had to be few in number. MTBS 3 did mount a rescue operation on 17 Dec but the records are clear that only PT-32, PT-33 and PT 35 were involved, no destroyers. I plan to copy the ship's logs for Dec through Feb when I am next at the National Archives in Washington DC.

For sources, I use several sources, including:

The final report of Admiral Thomas C. Hart to the US Navy, obtained from the National Archives, entitled, Narrative of Events, Asiatic F1eet Leading up to War and From 8 December 1941 to 15 February 1942 by Admiral Thos. C. HART Commander in Chief, Asiatic Fleet

On page 46 and 47, covering the dates of 26 December to 31 December, Hart reports: PEARY sailed for the south via Molucca. Strait and there experienced considerable air attack; she was undamaged by the enemy attack but had some casualties from an attack by Australian dive-bombers, from Ambon. HERON went north to assist PEARY and was herself severely attacked; she held the advantage in the engagement, however.

My second original source is COMBAT NARRATIVES - The Java Sea Campaign, written by the Office of Naval Intelligence U.S. Navy in March 1943, Page 9, which states:

The Peary had a narrow escape during the Japanese bombing of Manila Bay on the 26th. A few near hits caused slight damage, but by skillfu1 maneuvering she escaped being hit by any of the 45 bombs which the enemy dropped at her. After this experience Admiral Rockwell gave permission for her to proceed south to join our task force.

Sailing the night of the 26th the Peary arrived at Campomanes Bay (Negros) the following morning. Since Japanese planes could be expected in this area, she was tied up along shore and camouflaged with green paint and palm branches. This work was completed just in time, for shortly afterwards 5 enemy bombers passed over, headed north. Apparently they did not see our destroyer, but as a precaution she was moved to Asia Bay and again camouflaged. Again Japanese planes passed over, southbound this time, again without detecting the Peary.

Definitive proof that the Peary left Manila Bay on 26 Dec 1941.

Thirdly, The Rising Sun in the Pacific by Samuel Eliot Morison wrote on page 196:

Destroyers Peary and Pillsbury had been left at Corregidor under Admiral Rockwell's command to assist the offshore patrol. Although damaged in the early attack on Cavite, their underwater sound equipment worked and each carried six torpedoes. Enemy air superiority forced them to maneuver almost to exhaustion until the afternoon of 26 December when, after beating off an attack by about 45 planes, the two destroyers' captains declared that they would have to cut and run or beach themselves, as fuel was running low and crews were exhausted. That night Admiral Rockwell directed them to make their way to Java and join Admiral Glassford's command. Pillsbury's voyage via Balikpapan was uneventful but Peary had considerable adventure.

USS Peary sank in in Darwin Australia, on 19 Feb 1942 during a Japanese bombing raid, and the Pillsbury sank 2 Mar 1942 south of Java.

I hope this clears up my meaning when I deleted Peary and Pillsbury from the article on MTBS 3. I would be happy to have it read that both of the destroyers left Manila on 26 Dec, leaving MTBS 3 on their own, except for local fishing boats and yachts.

Regards,

David

63.142.161.20 (talk) 22:35, 15 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Did you read the reference? The section explicitly deals with the activities from the Cavite evacuation where naval forces moved to Bataan and before the withdrawal of those two destroyers. Explicitly! I have bolded that above! Repeat:


 * Often one PT was accompanied by a YP, a small patrol vessel, either the Maryanne, the Perry, or the Fisheries II, or, until they departed from the area, one of two four-stack destroyers, the Pillsbury and the Peary.


 * What is unclear to you about "until they departed from the area"? If you had bothered to read the entire short section you would find that the remaining paragraphs describe the withdrawal you seem so fixed upon. Those include "On December 26 Admiral Rockwell reported to General MacArthur for duty" because he had nothing much left as shown in the next paragraph.


 * By the way, that is an official Navy source, foreword by President John F. Kennedy, introduction by the Director of Naval History and publication by the Naval History Division. Wikipedia pages are not valid "references" to refute such documentation. You might note that this reference is used as a reference in NHHC documents as U.S. Navy PT Boats and Battle of Midway, 3-6 June 1942 Composition of U. S. Forces and in a bibliography here. It is hardly a fly-by-night vague source. Do not cite conflicts with Wiki pages for deleting cited text. That is pretty much a no-no here. By the way, I have, have read in detail and know well your "other references" and while they support the withdrawal of those two destroyers they in no way conflict with Bulkley's work. I also noticed you "corrected" the clearly stated author in the reference, Robert J. Bulkley, to "Bulkeley". So, please do read references before making changes to cited text. Palmeira (talk) 23:54, 15 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I'll grant you that I should not have used other WIKI pages as a reference, but the original source documents are valid to show that the two destroyers left Manila Bay on 26 Dec. That said, it was not clear from the original text in the article that the Peary and Pillsbury helped MTBS 3 until they left the area, just that they helped MTBS 3. Adding that they assisted until they left the area on 26 Dec would have been a better solution, and I apologize for not having made the simple change rather than just deleting reference to the two destroyers.

Graphic3211 (talk) 00:41, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Graphic3211 (talk) 00:43, 16 September 2015 (UTC)