User talk:GreekStar12

Paparizou ip
Whatever I said to that Paparizou "manager" ip worked because he apologized to me and said it was all a misunderstanding. Btw, I got a kick out of reading your response to him! Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 19:20, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (File:RouvasIrthesStudioVideo.jpg)
Thanks for uploading File:RouvasIrthesStudioVideo.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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File:RouvasIrthesRoadVideo.jpg
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Helena Goes CLubbin'
This was a promo only release and is not official discography. I think we should take it down by redirecting it, but extrapulate the relevant info like about the singles for use on other pages. Imperatore (talk) 05:54, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey I skimmed through your responses quickly as I'm finally going to bed tonight lol. Anyways, Music Bazaar is a very shady, almost bootleg like site. If it's not black market then it's surely grey market. They seem to have all kinds of unnoficial things there, and they claim rights to Greek music digital sales via a Russian licencing agreement. http://www.music-bazaar.com/main.php?block=misc&page=4. They seem like a borderline scam who pocket the money, and if it's true, split the illegal profits with the aforementioned Russian organization or whatever. This Russian licence makes absolutely no sense, nor does this organization appear to have a relation with Greek AEPI (Ελληνική Εταιρεία Προστασίας της Πνευματικής Ιδιοκτησίας). I'll post more details here tomorrow, although be very vigilent about making arguments about music bazaar, since others have questioned its legality. Also notice the last paragraph of their legal statement!! Imperatore (talk) 07:48, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, I did a quick google search of this Russian organization and all the results are overwhelmingly about the legal interpretation of their practices. Bottom line SCAM and constitutes piracy (grey market at best). Here's one of the articles I briefly skimmed through which does a good job at deciphering their deceptive business practices. Notice that music bazaar quotes the same disclaimer about laws governing different countries. http://www.slate.com/id/2115868/
 * And finally, in response to the Rouvas and other "digital" like releases, they are obviously just fan compilations which music bazaar, being the scam site that they are, have picked up on. Fail!!
 * It appears as if Greece's official, industry body, fully licenced by IFPI and AEPI to conduct online administration of the labels' catalogues is MPGREEK, which in turn run their own site mpgreek.com and distribute to other official channels such as iTunes. The reason why I believe MPGREEK is the sales agent (licenced by labels via ifpi and aepi) is coz Sony's store is through them, 123play.gr (ant1 group's store) says powered by mpgreek, etc... although this is just my speculation at the moment. Regardless though, music bazaar is bullshit embroiled in the russian distribution scam. Imperatore (talk) 08:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

If you look at the back cover, it says "Promo Sampler - Not For Sale". I thought it was a nice little article I though :) Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 11:40, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well then, now that we now, I guess it can be merged into the promo section of Vrisko To Logo Na Zo or something. Interesting though because I read a fan discussion with one saying that it was bought physically, which must mean the physical retailer was selling it illegally as well.:0GreekStar12 (talk) 21:15, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * If people claim to have bought it legitimately, then maybe some physical copy batches might've (inadvertently) made there way to CD retail suppliers. Or it could've been that someone pirated the CD really well and supplied it to less formal retail channels (for CDs) like at periptera. Or if there never was a retail presence of it, the covers might've simply leaked from radio station or other promotional personnel who handled it. Imperatore (talk) 13:19, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Rouvas EPs
The EPs seem a little random at the moment. For example, how can we consider Monadikes Erminies his "third EP", when in fact, newspaper releases have been a common practice for more than decade??? A hot commodity like Rouvas has likely seen a number of back catalogue newspaper releases, especially from his Universal catalogue, as it's an easy way for his former company to cash in on his continued fame. I know I have seen a number of Rouvas newspaper compilations over the years, many of them mini EP style. Moreover, we should limit ourselves to official- retail- discography. Imperatore (talk) 22:37, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I think we may have already talked about this and we came to the conclusion that it was not an EP (especially because of its length) and we agreed that we would make some change to it but I haven't gotten around to it yet because there were some other album-oriented things that I wanted to do for Rouvas and thus I just decided to leave it alone for the time being since its not really one of the first articles you would read about him. Anyway, I have also seen many promo/EP/album releases in newspapers, but I know that the first two EPs are legitimate, especially the Dance Mixes which I bought and had a remix that was promoted at that time. I don't know what to do with Monadikes Erminies for the time being, but I think that some of these newspaper/limited edition articles could be made/kept if they were done in the right perspective. What I mean, for example, is that while there are some random releases, I Hrisi Diskothiki (Espresso) and Monadikes Erminies (Eleftheros Typos) ie. are a long-running album series that feature many artists. Unfortunately, for various reasons not linked to notability, there are no articles for these newspapers, although in theory there should be. In that case, the album series should be mentioned as it is something that is unique to their press and if there were individual album pages they should moreso be considered as the press material's project rather than an artist's official release, no what I mean? Well, the album series themselves are in one way notable because they have become established and have permission from the labels and not just the older songs. ie Monadikes Erminies was actually licensed by EMI. We can do something to it to change it from EP, but...? GreekStar12 (talk) 23:35, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yep, of course they are fully legit and, due to their very nature (being in a newspaper), they garner press attention/promotion lol. I definitely see that we need to find a way to address these as a seperate component to their official discography, somehow linking it to their press as you mentioned. Btw, I keep on forgetting to ask you- do you have MSN messenger? Imperatore (talk) 00:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No I don't actually, sorry :P Grk1011 and Greekboy kept bugging me about it and they eventually thought that I was just ignoring them but I wasn't, I just don't use it, lol. GreekStar12 (talk) 00:41, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh alright then there was just something i wanted to share with you :P. Would you be interested on another IM platform or possibly email or whatever? Imperatore (talk) 00:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Karvelas albums
I fixed up the labeling on Karvelas' album pages you made to accurately reflect release company, labels (imprints), as well as month of release and certification data i obtained from the "elliniki diskografia" database I have. Imperatore (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I found it a little weird too that the database indicates gold and platinum numbers for levels not the standard ones we now, as indicated in on the Greek Albums Chart page. I'll have to look into it further and let you know. As for the labeling, its actually not that hard if you have a timeline of the music industry. Sony Music was born in 1991, before it was CBS until it was sold to Sony in 1989 (changed name on jan1, 1991). Also, outside of the US and Canada, CBS did not have the Columbia label. It was an EMI label until 1990 when CBS acquired it from EMI for outside US and Canada, and beginning on Jan1, 1991 (sony music birth) columbia was used all over the world by sony. Hence outside US and Canada, like in Europe/Greece, until 1990 Columbia was under EMI. Indeed Greek EMI which was known as EMIAL until 1991 as well (until it merged with Minos in 1991 to for Minos-EMI) used COlumbia label until it was passed to Sony globally that year in 1991. Hence it was impossible for Karvelas to be Columbia Greece pre-1991 since we know they weren't on EMI Greece (EMIAL). In fact, Vissi and Karvelas left Columbia EMI after they got sued by that company for forming CarVi against Vissi's contract in early 80s lol- definitely they both left for CBS! Imperatore (talk) 22:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * As for a possible explanation why your source indicates all "columbia", it's probably because the source is a compilation of all the CDs put out, which were probably issued on CD for the first time in the 90s, hence the CBS repertoire would be reissued on sony music/columbia in the 90s... Imperatore (talk) 23:05, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Non-free use disputed for File:VandiAgapivideo.jpg
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Duress
Made some obvious updates to the Duress page, clarifying the type of movie and its screenings and distribution. One thing I think is BS is about sources like Esctoday saying Rouvas was in Cannes where it was screened. I looked at the Cannes repertoire for 2009 (a complete pdf file) and it was nowhere to be found. Do we know for sure Sakis was in Cannes, and if so, what is for the screening of Duress specifically?? Since Cannes is the world's major film destination, it could be that it was not part of the mainstream Cannes Film Festival, but just screened there with no relation to the festival (like at a trade show - since it's a general industry hub).

Orphaned non-free image (File:PloutarhosMikresFotografies.jpg)
 Thanks for uploading File:PloutarhosMikresFotografies.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Laïka/Modern Laïka
Modern Laïka redirects to Laïka which is described as modern Greek music. I feel like our use of the two genres is a little foggy. My impression is that Modern Laïka is more upbeat than regular, but I don't know where the line is drawn. Are both terms actually used in everyday life or is Modern Laïka sort of made up because of common sense? I feel like the article could use a little expansion to be up to par with other genre articles if you know anything about it. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 17:05, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * It is good that you mention this b/c I think that there needs to be certain clarifications on this. Personally, I have always had a problem with the genres for Greek singers here on wiki b/c I did not think that they were representative since pretty much all of the singers from the 80s to present were categorized under modern laika, pop, dance. First off, the reason why it redirects as you probably know has nothing to do with definition or notability, but just do to the fact that the articles do not exist like many Greek articles do not exist. Both terms are used and are their own seperate genres – comparatively think of Rhythm and blues and contemporary R&B. It's slightly different b/c in this case both are shortened to R&B, although a lot of the time in Greece it is just shortened to laiko as well. The official name of the modern stuff is synghrono laiko, so it really should be called contemporary laika. Anyway, I think we should go through all of the Greek music genres:


 * Rebetiko - Oldest genre of modern Greek music, prominent pre-WWI but made a revival in the 60s. Characterized by full string orchestration, especially high tones (baglama). Best example: Sotiria Bellou, Vasilis Tsitsanis, Giorgos Zambetas
 * Dimotiko - A classical genre associated with the church, heavy in sound, more than often chanted. Technically, it would be the Greek equivalent of gospel music. It is not really made for mainstream distribution.
 * Paradosiako - Basically translates to Greek folk music; it is similar to laiko in a way but is more centered towards traditional dance music rather than mainstream listening, and is often region-centric. The instrumentation often includes things other than the typical Greek strings, such as clarinet.
 * Nisiotiko - A subgenre of paradosiako which originates from Greek islands, most prominently used as dance music, but also used in mainstream music. Best example: Giannis Parios "Ela Na Pame S'ena Meros".
 * Entechno - This is really more a style than a genre. These songs may be of varying genres, but are characterized as being "art songs", meaning that they rely more on quality of the song rather than instant radio hits, with these songs also often possessing less trivial lyrics than other genres. However, many of them are just love songs that are characterized as ballads or being of a slower tempo. They are lullaby-esque, and vocally they are performed piano (softly) at a constant pace that does not usually range in notes or volume. Best example: Haris Alexiou (later work and ballads), Eleftheria Arvanitaki (closer towards the laiko angle), Michalis Hatzigiannis (closer towards the pop angle), and Filippos Pliatsikas (closer towards the rock/alternative angle)
 * Laiko - Basically the popular Greek music of the 20th century and beyond; technically equivalent to pop music. It is in a way similar to the previous genres, however is more up-to-date and more universal rather than region-centric. It is characterized by its heaviness, fullness in volume of voice without much change in dynamics (volume), and string orchestration, mostly focusing on the low tones (bouzouki). It can easily be upbeat and is often used as dance music, while the lyrics almost always center around relationships, or might be tinged with sadness. Best examples: Angela Dimitriou, Paschalis Terzis
 * Elafro laiko - Soft laiko in translation, it is true laiko lacking of Western elements, however it is characterized by a softer sound, often provided by the vocals of the artists. Best example: Giannis Parios, Giannis Ploutarhos
 * Zeimbekiko - A subgenre of laiko, it is characterized by its heavy sound and powerful, deep vocals that often stay at the same volume such as in laiko, however the genre is usually reserved for men and usually older artists. It is the music that the iconic Greek "freestyle" (drunk) dancing is done to. Best example: Dimitris Mitropanos, Stelios Kazantzidis, but sometimes also younger artists such as Notis Sfakianakis and Antonis Remos.
 * Contemporary laiko - Also called pop-laiko, it is pretty much the main music genre of artists from the 1980s to present. There are many similarities between this and laiko vocally and musically, although the main difference is that it is generally lighter and the lyrics can often be a little more trivial. The songs also usually have some minor Western elements that distinguish them from their authentic counterparts. Best examples: Peggy Zina, Marianda Pieridi, Elena Paparizou, (also pop-folk), Despina Vandi (work post-Profities, also laiko, pop-folk), Anna Vissi (work since late 1990s, also laiko, pop-folk)
 * Pop-folk - (see Pop-folk) Fairly similar to contemporary laiko, with the same performers, it is moreso valued for its danceability rather than quality and is seperated from contemp. laiko merely by the lack specifically of bouzouki, etc., such as Chrispa's "A Chance to Love". Thus this type of music is more Balkan-oriented than unique to Greece. These are your typical "Dum Tek Tek"-style songs and are often criticized for the cheap production style, very trivial lyrics, mostly focusing on relationships, and also for the lack of the performer to show any significant vocal capabilities, although often the performers themselves are not considered to be the most vocally inclined. Although it is a Balkan trend, in some cases it is more cultural, such as the Turkish artist Tarkan.
 * Skiladiko - This is more of a style rather than a genre and most of these fall under the contemporary laiko/pop-laiko genre. Characterized by its low quality of production with the singers often performing at "skiladiko" venues that are defined as being kind of cheap dance clubs with the plate and flower throwing. The vocalists have also often been pinned as having lower quality vocals and singing about very trivial subjects. Best example: Lefteris Pantazis.

Classifications Well, here are my classifications on a few artists that you were probably thinking about. Many artists have been proclaimed pop singers in Greece by the media or whatever, but this is mostly untrue and pop music is often a backing genre. Just a few searches on some album reviews and there is a lot of available information.
 * Anna Vissi - Laiko and contemporary laiko are a definite; pop-folk, and pop/dance are also appropriate. The thing is that many of these contemporary laiko singers often try to follow trends and try to give off pop images. Many of them also often release the pop songs from their albums as singles but a good majority of the album is laiko. Vissi may be often cited as a pop star, and while it is true that she (unlike many of the other artists) is notable in pop and has had numerous songs and success, she is mainly rooted in contemp. laiko.
 * Despina Vandi - All of her first three albums can safely be labeled as laiko and nothing else. She began doing some more Western sounds in Profities, with "A Pa Pa" falling under contemporary laiko. However, songs like "Sta Dosa Ola" and "Lathos Anthropos" and many others since are also laiko. Although she has experimented with some pop tunes, it is not really all that notable enough for her as the majority of her work is laiko.
 * Antonis Remos - Mostly laiko and zeimbekiko, some contemporary laiko, very few songs are pop.
 * Antique - 90% of their work was contemporary laiko, despite the infusion of house/disco music. The songs "Me Logia Ellinika" and "Kainouria Agapi" are definitely laiko. Very few songs of theirs are pop.
 * Notis Sfakianakis - Mostly laiko and zeimbekiko, some contemporary laiko.
 * Michalis Hatzigiannis - Mostly entechno/traditional pop, some contemporary laiko and very few pop rock. However, his music has included many more bouncy pop songs since Akatallili Skini (see 7 album reviews).
 * Peggy Zina - Mostly contemporary laiko although some laiko. Pop is a backburner genre, and she is definitely more laiko than most of the other female singers her age.
 * Elli Kokkinou - Mostly contemporary laiko, some laiko and pop folk. Hardly any pop.
 * Katy Garbi - Laiko and contemporary laiko or pop-folk, very few pop.
 * Elena Paparizou - Mostly contemporary laiko/pop-folk (incl. "My Number One"), otherwise dance. Even some of her more adventurous work, such as "I Kardia Sou Petra", for example, still contains contemporary laiko elements.
 * Giorgos Mazonakis - Mostly laiko and some contemporary laiko, along with some random genres at times ("Mila", "To Gucci Forema")
 * Christos Dantis - Mostly contemporary laiko, although sometimes he follows a more rock pattern.
 * Natassa Theodoridou - Mostly laiko. Went through a slightly more pop phase during one album.
 * Chrispa - Mostly laiko, some pop-folk, pop is not that notable.

The truth is that most of the Greek artists cannot be considered pop artists; the only high-profile artist that can truly be identified as a full-time pop singer is Sakis Rouvas. However, I would definitely consider some younger artists such as Tamta to be pop singers, b/c as I know of, she really has not sung anything else. There are also a number of alternative bands and groups that are not as successful or notable that I would really rather not get into right now since most of their articles don't exist anyway. GreekStar12 (talk) 23:29, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks so much for the explanation, it is VERY helpful. I think I'll copy it on to a subpage of mine for future reference. I did read it right away, but I wasn't able to thank you since I've been so busy with school and other stuff that I haven't been able to do more than simple reverts for the past week. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 21:32, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey, I also read this shortly after you posted and I wanna commend you on a great job! I'm not too sure though about some of the descriptions you gave. For example, "elafrolaiko"- isn't it a more watered down version of laiko with western elements? And I would've never thought of Ploutahos or Parios as examples. Secondly I never thought of zeibekiko as a genre, but more as of a style of type of song, within laiko. Furthermore, a longstanding issue on wiki I've wanted to bring up is this strange distinction between laiko and laika (singular - plural) describing them as two different genres. Any thoughts? Imperatore (talk) 18:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Something we should remember now is that Greeks have a very loose understanding and classification of genres. ex: I remember seeing Dima Bilan on TV in 2008 and he told them that his music was mostly R&B and they asked him if he was a rapper. They just don't distinguish, unlike in the Western world. If you see artist pages here, they will include a few main genres, but then if you visit their song/album pages, the genres are very specific and abundant. It really just depends how some classify elafrolaiko. Some might use it to describe the laiko w/ western elements, but that's just contemporary laiko, to be correct, and this is the correct term that is also recognized by awards shows (MAD, Arions). What I meant by elafro laiko is that it is much "balladier", comparative to soft rock. It has the laiko instrumenation but is not as "ding dong pluck pluck" as laiko (compare Ploutarhos to Terzis). Anyway this is very specific and a destinction that I was trying to make, and it while it is used sometimes, it really hasn't caught on as a description as much as the other ones, so we'll probably never use it. I am comfortable calling Ploutarhos laika, but I get a little confused with Parios, b/c from what I have heard, he never really got into the rebetiko revival thing like Dalaras and Alexiou, he's not necessarily "entehno" solely, but he's not heavy enough to be laiko. Moving on, entehno is really just a style and can encompass many different genres (see above) but in Greece it is treated as a genre and is its own category at awards shows. Zeimbekiko however, is not really a style, it is a subgenre like hard rock is to rock. Generally, only generalized genres are supposed to go on artist pages and the specific ones on album/song pages ie hip hop instead of west coast hip hop and gangsta rap, except in a case if the artist is exclusively ie pop rock and does nothing else. This prevents the genres section from becoming huge. However, I think some of these rules are very American artist-oriented and for Greek artists, it would be appropriate to put all three laiko, contemporary laiko, and zeimbekiko if they fit under these genres. I think this should be done b/c for international artists we are working with all of the genres of the world, while for Greek artists these are the genres we are working with and in order to give a full impression of their music, it is necessary since most do not have their own song pages. As far as the singular/plural issue they shouldn't be presented as diff genres, although I noticed that the tendency is to write laiko with the accents for the authentic stuff and laika for the modern. I've written it laika myself on many occasions, but I think it is mostly informal language, referring to "the popular stuff" and is how it would be said in speech (ie: Μου αρέσουν τα λαικά τραγούδια). It may be appropriate to change the existing ones to laiko b/c it is singular and is credited this way in awards shows and also in stores like Musical.gr GreekStar12 (talk) 00:15, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I have now merged the laika article into the laiko article. I pretty much had the same suspicion all this time- that it was nothing more than speech convention. Also we have a bit of dilemma with new Hrispa "shocker" album Mehri Edo. If you haven't heard the album, I suggest you take a quick listen off youtube, since she collaborated with Korkolis and Roussi, and the sound is definitely more entehno, inline with other works from Korkolis, albeit with a more pop-like edge if I may say so... So far I have put entehno as the genre, but I feel that it could use some subgenres and/or styles, since as you mentioned, entehno is not really a genre per say, but as I see it it's more as a category/grouping of songs from their laiko counterparts based on other non-genre rationales (like sociological, etc..) Imperatore (talk) 16:44, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

--Spike Wilbury ♫ talk  15:38, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Genres cont'd
Sorry for not specifying the full name and catching you off guard, but everyone confuses those two, especially in translit. writing where there is no accent lol. I do not believe this is a big shift for Hrispa, at least from a purely musical sense (perceptions aside), since her previous album with Pegasos had some similar sounding songs, like the album's title song "Kathreftis". But of course we did not end up labeling that album entehno, since the perception dilemma on the classification of the genre is analogous to Rouvas' "S'eho erotefti". Also I believe that a large part of Protopsalti's work with Korkolis had a more poetic slant to the lyrics, whereas Hrispa's lyrics employ everyday "modern" language. What's your final verdict on the genres though- do we just leave it at "entehno"? Also, for my own interest, do you mind identifying which song(s) you felt are more laiko inspired?

As for the new globalized music scenes emerging in Greece, I wouldn't mind at all to classify them under non-Greek "global" genres, as well as making separate "hip hop" subcategories under Greek music categories. Whereas the majority of pop songs are by artists routed in laika (other than Rouvas, Tamta, as you mentioned), these new emerging scenes are instead prompted by the globalization/transnationalization of music, therefore they lack a linear progression from genres of "Greekness". I know this may begin to sounds like a greater debate, but the fact is it's no surprise that cultural expressions like music witness unprecedented transformations in the 21st century by greater phenomenons of interconnectedness, much like we hear in Greek music.

Notable exceptions are when the hip hop artists, in their savvy attempts to make extra $$$, decide to tap into the conventional mainstream Greek music scene by arranging duets with laiko artists and by infiltrating the bouzoukia and the megales pistes of Athens. For those duets, they are nothing more than fusions, and we can say: hip hop & laiko, etc.. Imperatore (talk) 18:10, 11 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Here's some captivating photos I wanted to share :P   http://www.flickr.com/photos/nikant/tags/minosemi/   and   http://www.flickr.com/photos/sergio_s/sets/72157614209045349/.


 * Oh thanks! Those are really nice! GreekStar12 (talk) 20:31, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

THANKS
HI!! THANKS FOR EDITING A PAGE THAT I CREATED. NICE TO KNOW THAT YOU ARE A MUSIC LOVER LIKE ME. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raj.delta (talk • contribs) 17:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Instant messaging
I think it's about time for you to make an instant messaging account. me, imperatore, and greekboy all have AOL Instant Messenger so it would be a lot easier to discuss changes and updates without going back and forth on talk pages. It's free and it's not like you have to give any personal information to have an account. If you decide not to make one, at least turn on the email option in preferences so we can contact you that way. It comes as an email from wiki, so we won't know your real email address too if that was a privacy concern of yours. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 17:07, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image (File:PaparizouAnditheseisvideo.jpg)
 Thanks for uploading File:PaparizouAnditheseisvideo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - September and October 2009
Note: the Newsletter is "collapsed" for convenience. To see the full letter, click on the "show" button at the right end of the gray bar. If you are no longer interested in WikiProject Eurovision then please remove your name from this list. This Newsletter was delivered by Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 19:37, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

About Mando's Discography.
Hey GreekStar. If I remember correctly, I asked a person I used to know from a forum to inform me about Mando's sales and chart peaks in Greece and Cyprous. I was sent an e-mail with the info that you can see in that page. Nevertheless, I am not sure at all about their validity. If you feel that they are incorrect, then please edit. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mysterious Spy (talk • contribs) 17:05, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Sakis Rouvas Peer review
You are very welcome, thanks for all of your hard work here! Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:40, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I would look at model FA biography articles, and see how they do it, for example Ernest Shackleton puts dates at the end. My preference is for dates at the end as the events are what determines the sections / divisions, and the dates are just more information. However you decide, I agree that it is good to be consitent. If this is amicable, perhaps a third opinion would be the way to go? Everyone has to agree to abide by it beforehand though. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 05:19, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - November and December 2009
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3RR
You have violated the WP:Three revert rule on the Sakis Rouvas article, so I am forced to notify the Administrator's noticeboard. Greekboy (talk) 09:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The 3RR case has ended with a warning to you, since you made four reverts in 24 hours on 15 January. The full report is at WP:AN3. Please do not continue to revert tags. If you disagree on whether something is sourced, make your case on the Talk page for why it really is sourced, or is so obvious that no source is needed. If the article contains WP:PEACOCK language, the phrase can either be removed or it can be fixed by rewriting. If people won't cooperate, the article may need to be fully protected. EdJohnston (talk) 05:46, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Unreferenced BLPs
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 * 1) Kostas Kapetanidis -

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Rouvas projects
WikiProject Dance: A few Wikipedians have gotten together to make some suggestions about how we might organize data in articles about Dance. Here are some articles they deal with: 18th century dance - 20th century ballet - American folk dance - Ballet comique - Canadian step dance - Country Western Dance International. It's dance moves and competitions, not singers.

WikiProject Gymnastics: Some have formed this collaboration resource and group dedicated to improving Wikipedia's coverage of gymnastics, including the organization of information and articles on this topic area. Articles: European Championships, National championships by country, Other notable competitions, Gymnastics routines.

WikiProject Electronic music: This project seeks to categorize, organize and expand articles dealing with electronic music.

WikiProject Rock music: ''The Rock music WikiProject is a project, created on June 17, 2006, that helps to assemble editors interested in rock subgenres. ''

WikiProject Television: This is to guide the structure and normalize the standard of articles dealing with the Television medium and television series or other forms of episodic programs.

As you can see, Rouvas fits into none of these projects and they were removed for good reason. If you would like to have them included, please explain why I am "way off". Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 16:23, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Please respond to this on the Rouvas talk so it can be a centralized discussion. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 19:29, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Sources and fact issues
Hey, I just want to remind you that for every fact added to an article, there should generally be a source at the end of that specific sentence. I have noticed that you have not done some in quite a few instances, which leads us to have an article lacking adequate sourcing right from the beginning. Also it seems you are presenting rumors in some cases, as facts. Like that Paparizou wanted to perform on X-Factor but Sony did not let her. Or that the new album will include MAD songs, even though it has not officially been confirmed by Sony or Paparizou or anyone related directly to the album. Greekboy (talk) 08:25, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - January and February 2010
Note: the Newsletter is "collapsed" for convenience. To see the full letter, click on the "show" button at the right end of the gray bar. If you are no longer interested in WikiProject Eurovision then please remove your name from this list. This Newsletter was delivered by  xenobot  14:01, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

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AfD nomination of Sakis Rouvas European Tour and others
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AfD nomination of I Megaliteres Epitihies + Kai Se Thelo and others
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AfD nomination of Alexandra Zakka
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10 Hronia Mazi
Please refrain from making moves in the future, especially drastic ones concerning namings that have been discussed before, with out proper consensus or talk. There was a consensus on the naming of this album two years ago, that is archived on the album's talk page for this very reason. Thank you. Greekboy (talk) 22:03, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't really consider this a drastic move when it is written like that on 1. the album cover 2. all MAD sources, including the videos of individual songs, (so this makes it pretty obvious), as well as the title it charted under in IFPI. It's not a stylistic issue, MAD calls the song "10 hronia mazi", but obv that's not the title of the album. GreekStar12 (talk) 22:14, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

File:Tamta_Rouvas_Tharros_I_Alitheia.jpg
I have tagged File:Tamta_Rouvas_Tharros_I_Alitheia.jpg as orphaned fairuse. In order for the image to be kept at Wikipedia, it must be included in at least one article. Otherwise, it will be deleted in seven days. Melesse (talk) 05:01, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

File:Rouvas_Politia_2010.jpg
I have tagged File:Rouvas_Politia_2010.jpg as orphaned fairuse. In order for the image to be kept at Wikipedia, it must be included in at least one article. Otherwise, it will be deleted in seven days. Melesse (talk) 08:25, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Hey hey
Star, I hope all is well! It's been a while since you were last on AIM and I've been waiting forever for your critical assessment on various new releases :( . Also pending is a discussion on going forward with Rouvas GA of course, among several other things. Please appear soon!! Imperatore (talk) 00:58, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Hey Star, yes I'm still around, albeit a lot less often. I was trying to reach you in the summer cause I was in your area again :P. Come on AIM or something :). Imperatore (talk) 18:29, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

"Songs written by" categories.
Many thanks for adding several of these categories. However, each category should be supported by an article, in some of the cats you have created there is no article about the songwriter which means the category could be deleted at any time. Do you have the resources to create the articles to save the categories? Cheers. --Richhoncho (talk) 06:15, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Well these are all acts that have written on multiple albums or in some case are also performers and would merit their own article. I'm sure it would be easy to find sufficient sources on them, but the main problem is that there are so many Greek articles that need to be made, including for much more notable acts and it is s/t that is being worked on. GreekStar12 (talk) 20:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Not disputing the notability of the writers. It's just that cats should be supported by an article, and without that you might find another editor nominates for deletion, which defeats your objective. Cheers. --Richhoncho (talk) 22:18, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

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AfD nomination of Hronia Polla
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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - March through July 2010
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Article length
You do realize that the Elena article is only 91kb long while Rouvas' is 133kb and Michael Jackson's is 197kb? According to WP:SIZERULE, the article probably should be shortened if greater than 60kb, but over 100kb it definitely should. Being only 91kb, size is not a concern at the moment. Considering that Jackson is a featured article at 197kb, I think its safe to say that Elena's page has plenty of room to expand. Whether it is necessary considering the length of her career is another story. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 16:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

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File:Sakis_Ola_Kala_single.jpg
I have tagged File:Sakis_Ola_Kala_single.jpg as orphaned fairuse. In order for the image to be kept at Wikipedia, it must be included in at least one article. Otherwise, it will be deleted in seven days. Melesse (talk) 01:25, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Sakis Rouvas Collection
 — Rlevse • Talk  • 12:03, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Parafora
Hey Greekstar, do you have the retail version of Parafora? It would be nice to clarify if Sakis Rouvas Music still holds, as the Ekdoseis Liberi edition solely states it's under licence by Minos EMI. Also the personnel section should be built up asap if you have the complete liner notes.

I migrated over to typical Western pop tracklisting template (writer/producer) cuz it was the only way to effectively capture the producers as you will see. Before that there were a handful of producers like Soumka missing, as he didn't have 'music/lyric' credit as he isn't a songwriter, so it wasn't very representative of who made the songs. Also some of those tracks that have foreign names for music/lyrics (in fact it's those tracks that have a hybrid "mousiki, stihoi" entry in the liner notes) those are obviously foreign published songs. Those non-Greek names obviously can't possibly contribute toward the Greek lyrics, but they are bundled together precisely 'coz everyone's a writer and that's how music publishers work - song credit publishing splits are not distinguished by music/lyrics, but just general writing, so that's why Minos EMI doesn't know themselves who's the composer and who's the lyricist specifically, so they just bundle together per the publishing convention. Also worth noting is that songwriters on publishing companies have splits indefinitely, so if one goes in and nukes the lyrical component to make new lyrics in a different language, then all the writers (of the original) per publishing get the royalty splits they're entitled to, regardless of who actually penned lyrics or composed a melody, or did both. This is another reason why music publishing doesn't work on the useless music/lyrics system, they're just concern about who will have ownership claims on a song, regardless of what language it's lyrically reinterpreted to in the future. In contrast, the Greek market songs have the usual music and lyrics separation (as Minos EMI has direct local knowledge and since there's no publishing to adhere to for royalty disbursement on Greek repertoire).

Oh and as I'm typing this I realize paragogi: "Sakis Rouvas Music", but it would be nice to know if this is just a colloquialism or if there's still is phonographic licencing (more likely than not anyway). Also check out my clarification of the Ekdoseis Liberi distribution (fixed price per print industry). It's great that Rouvas opted for this scheme instead of licencing to a newspaper, the cheap/tacky way; Instead he expanded his distribution by accessing newspaper channels, and cuz in Greece there's a periptero at every corner, that is sure to increase your distribution access by a million times. And cuz it's not a covermount on a magazine, it stands alone on the kiosk displays so visibility is definitely enhanced. Now of course there's been a few examples of artists who gone this route as well as of late (as in not a covermount, but using print distributor for standalone placement). BTW I began the covermount term on Greek pages after I discovered it on Prince's new European album lolol (I had heard of the term before but it hadn't struck me until now to swap it for Greek "newspaper" release pages.) Thank goodness Rouvas went this more sophisticated route, and didn't give into the bidding pressures of a newspaper for a one-time cash lump sum. He's definitely using the newspaper system but to his advantage for widening distribution only.

Furthermore, per the justification of that IFPIGR IT guy who answers all those fan emails, it would seem that this distribution scheme with Liberis would more likely than not fall under the criteria where their sales would be eligible for IFPI sales tracking. So hopefully if the correct Minos EMI/Liberis sales audits are commissioned and provided that IFPI does not misinterpret (if in fact it really is eligible), then Rouvas might actually get certed really quickly with actual real sales under his belt, unlike in the cases of those wars we have to fight against IP and other ignorant editors that claim newspaper sales as fake certs like on Paparizou lol. Imperatore (talk) 18:41, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Kalomoira
I started a move discussion for Kalomoira after reading your comments on the talk page. It's been a few days and you have not commented in the discussion. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 14:24, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Parafora (album)
Materialscientist (talk) 18:03, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Contact
Kalispéra (kai Kalá Xristoúgenna!!!!) fíle GreekStar12, I'm wondering: have you got Facebook? If so, and if it would please you, I'd like to get in contact with you on that network. You can find me on www.facebook.com/RobBruin Ánte geiá, Robster1983 (talk) 19:22, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Anna Vissi
"This period marked the beginning of a commercial decline for Vissi into the end of the decade following the success of Kravgi". Where is this assumption coming from? A Despina Vandi forum that posted an article from Eleftheros Typos? To me it seems more like a personal state and should be removed. And also the sales of Apagorevmeno... you claim 27.000 copies "as of 2009". When in 2009? Until the end of the year? Because I doubt it! Also you wrote that every album after Kravgi was a commercial failure. As the article that you used as a source claims it was a bad period for many artists so it was more like a phenomenon that happens until today due to piracy and the so-called crisis. So you shouldn't compare the sales from previous years with the today data. Cause after all due to crisis the sales are still considered a success but yes it's a "failure" if we compare them with album sales 20 years ago --GhostFace1234 (talk) 08:30, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm actually going to chime in here referring to the "commercial decline" statement seeing as you have used it on a few pages. (along with the related "lowest selling album" in some cases) I don't think its really fair to say these artists had a commercial decline based solely on sales being less than their predecessor releases like you are stating now. It's not artist specific, its industry wide. You cant possibly compare an album from the 90s to today as the certification thresholds have been lowered (multiple times) by IFPI due to market conditions. It's not their fault piracy and the economy have hit sales hard. IFPI has seen that, and lowered the thresholds for those reasons. If anything, if you want to compare albums, their certifications would be a better comparison point. (along with the general success of the singles and the album's reception as well of course) I mean I would understand if you compared sales of two albums released during a period when the thresholds were the same, but this current comparison is ridiculous. This isn't even Vissi, Vandi, Rouvas, etc specific. I challenge you to name on artist (domestic or international) that is selling the same as he/she was in the past in Greece. You can't, because market conditions have deteriorated. And if you want to use statements like "Lowest selling album" at least elaborate on it. Leaving it just as is, makes it seem like the album was a failure when that may not necessarily be the case.Greekboy (talk) 10:37, 31 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, firstly, I hope you actually read this and think about it before reacting. When I added that info it was late and I did it quickly so I realize there will need to be some modifications. Secondly, if your main concern about the inclusion of the source is that it was posted to a Vandi forum, even though it is clearly from a reliable national newspaper, then you are grasping at straws because I could easily just source the newspaper itself as the publication information is known, according to WP:Paywall regulations which state a source has to be published not necessarily accessible. I posted from that site as a courtesy to other users who would be interested in reading it. If you are going to take challenge my information, then take the initiative to take out the things you feel are inappropriate and not everything, like specific sales of albums by a reliable secondary source, which clearly trump unreliable primary sources for sales information. Certifications are the worst way to determine an album's success and they are generally disregarded when actual sales are known. Is Hatzigiannis' 7 his best-selling, most hit producing, or most culturally relevant because it was 5x platinum? No. Is Jackson's Bad generally considered to be the most successful of all time because it had the most hits? No. Unless you are going to change the rules of the music industry, success is based 95% on sales and 5% on other elements.


 * @Greekboy, I've had several personal conversations with you and you have always seemed reluctant to admit that the artists have any personal responsibility for their decline, especially when it comes to Vissi. You shouldn't let personal admiration for an artist take away your ability to see the facts, which are widely cited. Obviously there are various reasons that are only partially responsible for the low sales. There is always something going on in the music industry and generally the world, and you shouldn't get side tracked by recentism. There might be $ crisis and piracy in the past decade, but you forget as well that thresholds in the 90s declined twice from the pre-1990 ones. However, in that decade, especially the second half, did a huge amount of artists (like Sfakianakis, Garbi, Vissi, and Vandi among others) not have some of the most successful albums ever, better than most of the sales of the previous decades? Even in the early 2000s, when the piracy problem had started, did artists like Vandi not acheive astronomic sales of 170-200k? Didnt dozens of artists (Hatzigiannis, Remos, Ploutarhos, Alexiou) sell in the 150k range well into the mid 2000s? So after 2006 six figure sales declined for the majority, but did Hatzigiannis not maintain 120k sales an album into the late 2000s? ie Sfakianakis never matched the sales of 5o Vima (1996) even in that period and X which was released during the same threshold period as Kravgi sold significantly less at 100k. In the early 00s when Sfak and Vissi were selling 100k there were dozens of artists outselling them, same as the mid 00s when they were selling only roughly 40k. Vandi has been declining on every level ever since Gia at a very rapid pace.


 * The declines of Sfakianakis, Vissi, Vandi, and Garbi, namely, have been heavily cited. Other artists like Paparizou and Theodoridou were also briefly cited as their declines are not that notable of them; for them somewhere in their articles you could write something like they had somewhat of a decline by the late 2000s which was in part due to the condition of the industry. The higher you set the bar the farther you have to fall. Invincible by MJ sold 15M copies worldwide, more than literally 95% of all other albums ever, with almost no promotion, but it is generally regarded as a commercial failure. Wiki is about verifiability, so if a majority of the public view an album as a commercial failure it technically is, like Vandis 10 H.M. was viewed as a flop, even though by the days standards it was only average. The same way you blame industry situations you can reflect in positive situations too, although nobody does; was Gia a huge success because it was a musical masterpiece or because it fit perfectly into the style and culture of Greek music at that time + promotion? Look at this artist Ayumi Hamasaki whose decline is also cited even though it was partially due to industry, so there is nothing wrong with stating the fact that post-Kravgi 2000s she faced a decline; Vissi does not have a public image section so it would have to be worked into the career part. X and Paraxenes Eikones may have had lower sales than her 90s albums but they were still generally considered commercially successful, however Nylon and Apagorevmeno were considered failures, which is why they were cited in the Typos article.


 * Your comments make me believe that you didnt bother to read the article. It was called The Stars Are Falling, The Entehno Musicians Are Holding On, so yes artist-specific blame was presented and it only said industry was only partially responsible; Piracy etc does not make you lose 75% of your sales. It and many other articles have noted the fall of laiko-pop in the last couple of years and the decline of star singers who place more emphasis on image rather than music, so there are at least a few artistic reasons for the decline. Almost all of the artists in decline became super popular after laiko and pop-laiko became popular circa 1994, so now that they are out of fashion a decline is only logical. A few thousand copies is not a big deal, but hundreds of thousands is, and the article cites several entehno artists who are keeping their sales fairly steady. So your argument of everyone being in decline is useless. The article cited Hatzigiannis for his consistent six figure sales as well; his sales may have gone down since the article was published but they are still good for the times. Even Kiamos sold 50k this year. (Kiamos!). Also, was Rouvas ever cited in the article? No, and in another similar article (Ta Nea I believe) when comparing him to the other artists they cited his consistent sales, which was also supported by To Vima. Pre-2008 when he was away from Greece there was some speculation (in a To Vima article talking about the fall of the 3 major pop stars) that he would eventually end up like Vissi and Vandi due to wrong career moves, but noted that he did not have any major signs of decline or any serious threat of replacement. In the end, this didnt occur as he has recently been widely cited as being more popular now, expanding his empire, consistently tops radio when most Greek artists cant get into top 10, and performs sold out shows, and is overall very culturally relevant and has his performance value increasing.  Maybe it would be difficult for Vissi now to sell 150k but her sales should not be as pathetic as they are, and that shows artistic motives. I agree that there are other manners to measure success; radios never stop even when sales do, but what was Vissis last major hit or even top 5 hit? Her most recent work has been getting bad reviews even from fans and she was #15 in Forbes. Her 2008 tour and shows did average, her payroll has decreased, and she wouldnt have invited another artist to perform w her at Athinon if her last show was a success. Paparizou has generally been regarded as the replacement of Vissi and Vandi as the top female pop artist and Avopolis commented that Vissi appeared to be trying to catch up to Paparizou and Zina. The criticisms she received for this decline include absence from Greece, artistic and professional choices, and the poor way she handled the ESC. You forget that Vissi also had a decline in the early 90s and her sales began failing long before the full impact of the industry elements hit (which was only in the late 00s). Difficult industry times force artists to think outside the box in terms of marketing but they are not fully to blame for failures, despite artists wanting you to believe so, and tough times prove who the strong artists really are. Her general image the past decade almost has been one of an artist in decline and the facts I presented above, with their sources should be mentioned in the article. I apologize for the length but this is something that in general needs to be addressed here on wiki. GreekStar12 (talk) 16:10, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I am going to be 100% +10 honest from the start. I have not wholly read the above as you are out to prove a point to me that is not necessary to prove. If you would have logged into AIM, you would have seen that I left you an IM stating the exact reason why I reverted. You are more than free to add back the information, sourced properly this time, like I left in the IM. If you can find the article published by a reliable source online, or own the print edition and can source the ref properly that way, then you are more than free to. And obviously you did not read what I wrote on this page clearly as well. I never said the artists are not responsible for declines at all. I quote myself from above "I don't think its really fair to say these artists had a commercial decline based solely on sales being less than their predecessor releases like you are stating now......And if you want to use statements like "Lowest selling album" at least elaborate on it." Maybe it was a case of misunderstanding. I meant that you need to elaborate on the statements instead of leaving as is, leading readers to come to their own conclusions. Also, my revision had nothing to do with Vissi specific. Teo beat me to reverting Vandi. If you would have edited similar for other artists, (improper source for bold (but known) claims, open-ended statements) I would have reverted as well. And for the record, no Hatzigiannis did not necessarily still sell well into the late 00's. If you came online, you would have also found out new revelations from IFPI concerning the certifications.--Greekboy (talk) 16:35, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I understood what you were saying above. Everything in the Vandi article was sourced, heavily at that. Perhaps you should have a read at this; I wrote it as a general guideline knowing that I would only discuss it once, as at these current times it is a topic that needs to be addressed here with how we handle the recent situations. There needs to be more initiative here in general from editors, not just me, into putting an effort for sourcing these so called known facts instead of the current general oblivious behaviour towards it.GreekStar12 (talk) 16:44, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I never mentioned the word certification or claimed that certifications make an album or an artist successful. I agree that the sales are the most important but we shouldn't compare the sales from previous years with the today sales and determine an artist's decline or not. Piracy was not the same in 2000 compared to 2010. Not to mention the legal/illegal downloading. And last but not least: "Her 2008 tour and shows did average, her payroll has decreased, and she wouldnt have invited another artist to perform w her at Athinon if her last show was a success. Paparizou has generally been regarded as the replacement of Vissi and Vandi as the top female pop artist." Seriously??? WHAT ARE YOU SAYING???????? This is generally regarded from who? You? Please give me a source! --GhostFace1234 (talk) 17:33, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Most of my comments are to Greekboy, as I have never edited w you. I understand what you are saying, but if you read what i wrote, you will see that obviously her sales began decreasing even before there was a major impact from piracy and at that time many other artists were outselling her 100k sales, and this is a fact you can search yourself, along w that there are many other factors indicating her decline. Unlike X and Paraxenes, Nylon and Apago are considered to be commercial failures. Everything I said above was from newspapers and sources, but obviously I wouldnt waste time putting it on my talk page, b/c again my comments were more directed to Greekboy. If you look it up, her 2008 tour and the fab show were not very successful. Vandi's tour for one beat vissi's and there was actually a direct comparisson made between the s club and fab, saying that the former's success was very impressive when even vissi's highly promoted show was not doing well. If you think about it, why would she invite Rouvas to perform at athinon with her if she had fully supported the show the year before. Athinon is a big club and she on average only filled half of it. According to Forbes Vissi got 26k euros last year and is getting 22k euros this year, whereas rouvas got 18k last year and 20k this year, the only person to increase. To Vima among others have cited Paparizou as replacing Vissi and Vandi in the late 2000s and Avopolis said Vissi was trying to catch up to her. Don't get me wrong a Paparizou (or Vandi) fan I am not, but unless you are completely blinded by being a fan you can see that in the past half decade Paparizou has been the most culturally relevant female contemporary artist. GreekStar12 (talk) 18:22, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I briskly reviewed some of the debate here; quite honestly they're several relevant points. The only point I wanna make right now is with Greekboy's assertion of backing up the claim 'lowest selling album'. Numbers are absolute, so there's absolutely nothing wrong with that statement on the face of it. Sure, in relative terms, a single sale today might hold a bit more value that a single sale in the late 90s or whenever these artists (and the Greek recorded music market as a whole) was riding high, but a number is a number. Market conditions have already been rightfully touched upon a lot in the IFPI Greece article; it would generally be inappropriate or illogical to go into each artist's page and try to explain the greater causes to an absolute fact that is a sales figure. I definitely agree though that the certification thresholds act as a sort of normalization, allowing for more meaningful inter-decade/era comparisons. Imperatore (talk) 19:02, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your input!GreekStar12 (talk) 19:31, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * There's no point in mentioning that it was the lowest selling album without some relevance to the album's reception. A random sentence like that only makes it seem like the album was a flop and the artist failed without going into even the basics of why. The point isn't that Greekboy would like an in depth analysis of why it would sell less, but that statement alone is like comparing apples to oranges. The market has changed; it isn't cut and dry "oh the last album sold more so this one was a piece of crap". The success of an album relies much more on the reception of the songs on the radio and the ability of the artist to secure appearances because of the songs. The record label is the only one greatly benefiting from album sales which arguably isn't of too much importance. Grk1011 (talk) 19:36, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The statement lowest selling album might be related to an album being a flop, but those two characterizations are still very different. As per the logic already stated above (a number is a number), I don't see why it can't stand as a 'random' statement on it's own (without any other further implications of reception), but then again maybe that's just my opinion on what is appropriate and what is not in encyclopedic terms. I know that as a reader I appreciate having this information when holistically looking at the career of an artist. It's just valuable to know when sales where at their lowest because, that number arguably, has value in-and-of-itself (as in the album that sold the fewest copies). Undoubtedly though this statement gains more meaning/significance if there's a big gap with the previous albums- obviously there's no real use in making this indication if changes aren't reasonably pronounced. Of course market conditions change, and that's why the thresholds adjust accordingly. Imperatore (talk) 20:15, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * If we want to further discuss this, we should do it somewhere else as we are intruding on Greekstar12's talkpage, which she does not particularly enjoy. :p Greekboy (talk) 14:13, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Well apparently the 4 of us (excluding ghost - sorry) are incapable of discussing this issue through AIM even though we were all on yesterday and even having various other discussions, lol. Grk1011 (talk) 16:00, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey you around on AIM? Greekboy (talk) 16:44, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Again???
See, you send a message saying that one source or many "random sources" cannot give an overall idea of someone's (film) career. But here we are again taking one person's review and write about Vissi's decline and someone else's opinion that Paparizou topped both Vissi and Vandi and to make things even worse, another person's opinion that Vissi is trying to catch up with Zina (you can't be serious) and Paparizou. Once again you're highly impartial. I can write the same thing with the same source in Rouvas' article saying that his movie was a huge flop and that his international career is a failure. You did the exact same thing on Vissi and Vandi but not on Rouvas. Why this empathy? And don't tell me you elaborated on it and gave a general view because I can do it too and I think I already did with his movie but you deleted it. And don't say once again that it's one thing someone's film career and another thing someone's commercial status.NtoSi (talk) 22:04, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Seriously what's your problem? I have to agree with ntosi about you being impartial. Why there should be a comparison in someone's bio with other artists and rediculous statements like "Vissi trying to catch up with Zina". I can find unaccountable sources stating that Vissi is the biggest female star in Greece and Cyprus or even the greatest artist of all time etc etc etc. But I can't put that on wikipedia. Why do the opposite then?-- GhostFace1234 (talk) 22:22, 8 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok, you two are new here so I am going to be nice to you. You need to read up on policy. Wikipedia is about verifiability. Ntosi, I meant you cannot just get random single reviews of a film etc and say the review was generally this or that. I proved that with Forbes which said the reviews were mixed not poor and the sales were normal. You need a statement generalizing the overall reception. You can't add things up because that is synthesis. Either way, that topic is fully sourced so end of discussion. You obviously have some kind of problem understaning these things and you keep talking in circles. Ghost, first of all if you think Vissi is the greatest artist of all time you might be 12, because she never got the respect of Alexiou and Marinella. Second of all, you can find sources citing things about her being the biggest female star etc, and you CAN add them, for your information, as long as they are non commercial and reliably sourced. That still won't change the fact that her decline is still sourced by multiple reliable sources and notable. I and several other established editors reached consensus that the info can be included, as long as it cites who it was said by when there are not multiple sources. That is done. In the case of her 2000s decline that is sourced by two sources, so it does not need to be attributed to a single publisher. Perhaps you do not understand how Wikipedia works but you can have comparissons to other artists. You can have opinions given by single writers because it cites where they are from and lets the reader make up their own mind. These are done on all major artists. Look at for example Britney Spears comparing her to Aguilera in several ways and she is judged artistically heavily. Just because you may not agree with a statement like the Paparizou or Zina one does not mean a) it is not true or b) it is a notable published opinion. Ntosi I don't know why you keep bringing up Rouvas or how this proves your point. What is there to write on Rouvas? A commercial decline was not cited for him in either newspaper. You cannot say someone's international career failed in general, without referencing specifics like album sales etc. The author did no such thing. For Vissi though she did state that her attempts at a career abroad and her absence led to her losing Greek fans. That is specific. The point of Wiki is to present an overall neutral view of positives and negatives to provide an overall picture for the artist. Vissi and Vandi's declines are so notable that even fail Greek journalism is picking up on it. They are widely known. Not citing these facts/opinions just because it is an artist that you like is not neutral. It is unfair to the reader for pages to feature only positive information like nothing negative ever happens. And for your information, if you were being neutral you would know that Paparizou and Zina have been much more culturally relevant in the last few years than Vissi or Vandi. They have both sold more than the latter two in the last half decade. Vissi hasn't had a top five hit in like 5 years. You need to not let your admiration get the best of you and be dispassionate when writing.GreekStar12 (talk) 23:24, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
 * BTW NtoSi, impartial means fair, unbiased, or unprejudiced. So thank you, I am highly impartial :p GreekStar12 (talk) 23:29, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Vandi tweaks
Per our discussion on AIM, we were to keep the majority of your changes to Despina Vandi, however, there were to be some wording tweaks to address generalization issues. You seem to keep reverting other users to get back to your version and keep citing our consensus, but fail to actually make the tweaks. The way I see it, we are going from a positive pov to a negative pov, so neither side is right until those changes are made and I assume that unless those changes are made, these other users will keep reverting you. Grk1011 (talk) 15:55, 9 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Did you see the page? I made the tweaks similar to Anna Vissi which you said seemed fine. I was just waiting for your opinion.GreekStar12 (talk) 19:12, 10 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I see that you have addressed some of the issues based on a diff of your first version compared to now, which I missed. I'll have to read through the article completely before I can say for sure that everything is all set. Grk1011 (talk) 20:33, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

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Sakis Rouvas
The certifications are based on Rouvas official page. You can't find a more reliable source than this. Also in the legacy section, if you check the source you will see that it doesn't mention anywhere that Hatzigiannis and Nino are Rouvas' copycats. The source presents the 3 singers and explains who would fit better for a potential international career. I assume it was a poll since it urges the users to vote. So no copycats. Unless an assumption is acceptable on wikipedia as a reliable source. Also about the song "zise ti zoi" again the source does not verify the reason it was added for. It doesn't mention anywhere that the song was a radio hit or entered the top 10. It only says that Rouvas is searching for new songs for his soundtrack. Not to mention many other sources that do the exact same thing. So the context I removed, it was removes because it is not sourced or at least properly sourced--NtoSi (talk) 20:11, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

theleis i den theleis
Hello Greekstar12. First of all, brava for your work and dedication. I am an executive involved for years in the Greek record and live business and I just can't help by giving you great applauses for your goal to clean up and collect info's on the Greek music industry. I've passed through some of your articles. Good. And I'm a Wiki user since the beginning. I stopped and read the article concerning Rouvas' single "theleis i den theleis" and had to correct it as I happen to know exactly what happened. If you can please correct accordingly the file fact on the right. I thank you for this.

Don't refrain from coming back to me, should you need "behind the scenes" facts or more accurate info's about artists, recordings and tours.

And I'll keep my pseudo as it is :-)

Na' sai kala kai pali bravo, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pos1985 (talk • contribs) 16:33, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Autopatrolled
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Άννα Βίσση/Anna Vissi - "Αγάπη Είναι Εσύ/Agapi Einai Esi"
Γεία σου GreekStar12, I have asked for a renaming of the article Agapi Einai Esi. I'd like for you to share your thoughts on it, and share your feedback! Greets, Robster1983 (talk) 21:26, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

21 akatallilos
please correct production of the album... Dimitris Kontopoulos and Nektarios Kokkinos have nothing to do with this album... Vangelis Yannopoulos was the producer. Dimitris Kontopoulos came later on in the picture (after Phoebus' contribution with Ola Kala). Same goes for Nektarios Kokkinos, a Minos-Emi A&R.

E-mail
Hello. Can you please send me an email through Special:EmailUser/Ysangkok? It seems you have no e-mail specified for your account. I'd like to ask you about something. --Ysangkok (talk) 19:21, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Pop Corn Awards
Hi! I have the Pop Corn magazines who said which awards won Despina Vandi at Pop Corn Awards. Unfortunately, I have these in my village. I only have one photo-scan from PCA '99 (Pop Corn #179, 03.2000) where you can see clearly that Despina Vandi won 2 awards. http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4102/4866152350_645a0d8df6_z_d.jpg For 2000 and 2001 awards I can send you a photo in a few weeks or you can just trust me. Please correct the awards list like I firstly wrote it. I promise you that I will write sources when I have the magazines on my hands. I have a wealth of material by Despina Vandi and everything I write about her have substance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsironick (talk • contribs) 12:07, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi! I think I have and some other lists. I still have the magazines in my village. I will try to have them soon and I will inform you. As about Down Town, do you know which year was published? Or do you have any picture to see the cover? I think it is better to talk via e-mail. If you prefer that, my e-mail is tsironick@gmail.com tsironick (talk) 08:37, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit warring on Despina Vandi
I have protected Despina Vandi and Despina Vandi discography from editing indefinitely, until efforts are made to resolve this dispute by discussion. I am trying to kick start the process by asking for a statement from all involved parties on their position in this dispute. Please leave a statement at Talk:Despina Vandi stating (a) what you want from this dispute, and (b) why you want it. References to policies and guidelines will strengthen your position. CT Cooper · &#32;talk 10:22, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Zero tolerance rule
Following a lack of input from multiple parties at Talk:Despina Vandi, I have reduced the protection on Despina Vandi and Despina Vandi discography to semi-protection. However, to prevent edit warring resuming again, a "zero tolerance rule" on enforcement of the Edit warring policy is being put in place on both articles. The terms are below:


 * A blanket final warning is given to all parties of this dispute on edit warring to apply indefinitely.
 * A "zero tolerance rule" will apply to any further edit warring on either articles. Any further reverts (reversing another editors edits in whole or in part) on either article will result in a block of at least 24 hours for the editor(s) responsible, regardless of whether 3RR has been breached, or if the number of reverts is one or more. Significant leeway however will be given when:
 * The reverting editor has recently commented on the article talk page, and the user they are reverting has not done so.
 * For the very narrow range of edits exempt from 3RR.
 * All parties in this dispute are being notified of the "zero tolerance rule" via their user talk page (hence this message), and will have this apply to them once this has been done. Any new editor that attempts to edit war on these articles will be notified about the "zero tolerance rule" personally before it will apply to them.
 * An edit notice has been created as an additional reminder about the "zero tolerance rule".

Please see Talk:Despina Vandi for further details. CT Cooper · &#32;talk 11:57, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

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What's up
Hey, how's it going? Can you try to reach me sometime soon? :) Imperatore (talk) 20:59, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Star, you never ended up communicating with me =(. Imperatore (talk) 23:07, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey lol, what's up? Sorry about that :p you weren't online once or twice when I checked and I've been too busy doing stuff lately to keep up. When are you usually on? Καλό μήνα. :) GreekStar12 (talk) 01:38, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

KatrinofGreece
You might wish to note the comments I have left at User talk:KatrinofGreece. CT Cooper · &#32;talk 21:59, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Eurovision update
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Survey
Hi GreekStar12!

I have put together a survey for female editors of Wikipedia (and related projects) in order to explore, in greater detail, women's experiences and roles within the Wikimedia movement. It'd be wonderful if you could participate!

It's an independent survey, done by me, as a fellow volunteer Wikimedian. It is not being done on behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation. I hope you'll participate!

Just click this link to participate in this survey, via Google!

Any questions or concerns, feel free to email me or stop by my user talk page. Also, feel free to share this any other female Wikimedians you may know. It is in English, but any language Wikimedia participants are encouraged to participate. I appreciate your contributions - to the survey and to Wikipedia! Thank you! SarahStierch (talk) 13:49, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Sakis Rouvas
Please refrain from adding the redirect of "Sakis" to Sakis Rouvas again. He is NOT the only one Greek artist with that name to be widely recognized by first name only. In addition, he does NOT release albums under his first name only. There are many Greeks that do not even know Mr. Rouvas, while the majority of Greeks know many Greek artists whose first name is Sakis, including Sakis Mpoulas, Sakis Tolis, Sakis Gouzonis, and others. In the Rouvas article the source about the prominence of the mononym is debatable. As previously mentioned there are many Greek celebrities gained mononymous fame. Please do not compare internationally successful artists such as Elvis Presley with Mr. Rouvas that is recognized only by some Greeks in his homeland, and almost nobody else around the world knows him or has ever heard of him. The name Sakis (a very common name in Greece) was not and never will be the sole property of Mr. Rouvas. The notability tag about Sakis Gouzonis has been removed, please refrain from adding it again. You do NOT have the authority to say that the international competitions that Sakis Gouzonis won was not significant ones. On the contrary, Mr. Rouvas FAILED to win the Eurovision Song Contest 2004, and also FAILED to win the Eurovision Song Contest 2009. I have to tell you that I will consider adding a notability tag for the Sakis Rouvas article after reading his article again. Finally, Sakis Gouzonis has significant coverage in Greek and international media (there is not a single one reprint of the artist's official site). Moreover, Mr. Rouvas is not (and never was) a successful artist on MySpace, the biggest music community on our planet. Mr. Rouvas has an extremely small number of less than 3,000 followers on MySpace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HellenicPower (talk • contribs) 13:24, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Placing a notability tag on Rouvas? You've got to be kidding me! Even if I try to contemplate or take seriously what you just said, you're greatest criterion for placing greater notability upon Gouzonis over Rouvas is the number of MySpace followers. Even if that's so, it's not surprising since MySpace is an important platform for the visibly of indie and niche music genre musicians, such as Gouzonis. Furthermore instead of starting needless edit wars, maybe you should focus on writing Gouzonis' page instead. I have a genuine interest in discovering this artist. I doubt you will be able to create any discographic articles though, since notability beyond his bio page is probably hard to establish; For instance, I didn't see any information relating to the artist charting in Greece and/or Cyprus or any other territory the albums may have been released in, a vital criterion as per WikiProject Albums. Imperatore (talk) 17:13, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

edit warring
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war&#32; according to the reverts you have made on Sakis Gouzonis. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement. Please be particularly aware, Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states: If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing.&mdash;Kww(talk) 04:29, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made; that is to say, editors are not automatically "entitled" to three reverts.
 * 2) Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

Sakis Gouzonis
What is your problem with Sakis Gouzonis? Why do you hate him so much? Why do you call him names? I just cannot get it. Why is it difficult for you to accept the fact that there are other successful Greek artists making an international career bigger than Rouvas' international career? Do you want to start one more edit war? Is this your purpose? Well, this is not my purpose. I just wrote an article about the most famous Greek electronic composer (after Vangelis and Yanni) internationally. Please, stop editing the page again and again. Mr. Rouvas can use his first name "Sakis" as Mr. Gouzonis can, as Mr. Papadimitriou can, and all other Greek artists named Sakis. The name "Sakis" cannot redirect to a not-so-well-known Greek artist. Even in his homeland, there are some Greeks that have never heard of Mr. Rouvas. He is not so famous as Elvis Presley is, so he cannot have the name Sakis redirecting to his page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Greekmusicpower (talk • contribs) 04:35, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I have responded on your talk page. I don't hate him and I didn't call him names, I simply said that he is unknown and not notable which is true. International career? HAHAHA. Yeah right, where has he charted? What label is he on? Where are you from? Who in Greece or Cyprus (and many parts of the Balkans) hasn't heard of Rouvas? cited as the most commercially successful, awarded, and culturally influential act in Greece. One read of his 160kb article will prove that. Not to mention that Rouvas has charted in many countries and has notability in various parts of the world, having released many works under his first name. Gouzonis isn't even known by his parents. And he is not the most successful electronic act in Greece. Acts like Marsheaux are far more notable and have higher sales. This kid does not pass notability, he is just an indie musician and Wiki is not about promoting indie musicians, it's about having a record of topics that have received significant coverage. The reason why Sakis goes to Rouvas is because he is the only one using that mononym, and that is sourced in his article even. Other than that Rouvas does have some international recognition, that is not a factor needed in redirects. It's about the person/thing most known by that term, for readers that might get confused or use an alternate name to reach that article. Regardless, the only Sakis celebrities listed there are Greek so what does international recognition have to do with it? Do a google search of Sakis and see millions of Rouvas results come up. Sakis Gouzonis only has 50k google hits, so that pretty much proves he is not more famous internationally. The only reason you want Sakis to redirect to the name page is so that ppl may actually see Gouzonis' name and hopefully click on him, that's how I and other editors found out about him. Instead of edit warring with far more experienced editors why don't you actually try to listen to reason and improve his article, prove me wrong about the notability. But you can't because there is no media coverage on him. You should realize that a lot of famous television personalities or reality show contestants that have decent internet and media coverage don't even qualify as notable for Wiki standards, so why this guy?


 * Apparently you live in the 20th century and not in the 21st century. Charts do not count any more in the internet era. Having a record contract is insignificant, now that you can promote your music through the internet. etc. etc. In addition, yes, you hate him, and you called him names like "he is a failure" etc. The successful international career of Sakis Gouzonis is not debatable. I know that you are involved in the music industry that you will do anything to protect your job, but by calling "a failure" successful artists is not the right way to go. Any editing that you (or any of your associates) will make on the Sakis Gouzonis article will be disregarded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Greekmusicpower (talk • contribs) 05:21, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * LOL this is the most ignorant response ever. "Charts do not count any more in the internet era?" "Having a record contract is insignificant, now that you can promote your music through the internet." ? You do realize if an artist actually makes records for commercial purposes, even if they are only sold "on the internet" as digital downloads, they still get counted on charts? If Gouzonis is "promoting his music through the internet" as you say, then what exactly has this self-promotion accomplished for him? - a couple thousand Myspace followers??? His website doesn't even indicate if you can buy his tracks on popular digital download stores like iTunes, he's just selling them himself .......... Actually I just checked, he's giving them out for free = no revenue from record sales. Has he managed to get any of his music played on radio stations? Maybe if he had some kind of record contract, that process would be simplified don't you think?? Radio stations don't do business with a million artists directly (nor do they have the manpower to do so). Instead they go through companies (like labels) that supply them the content that they'll use for their broadcasts. Maybe Gouzonis is calling up stations one-by-one in hopes that someone will listen? Maybe his style of music is not even radio friendly? Does he play gigs on a regular basis? Does he have managers that can get him bookings for gigs and different events? Again, I have no idea about how he manages to generate revenue and make a living, since I have yet to explore his promotional platforms, which are probably just his website and MySpace. Although I would imagine his "21st century promotion through the internet" probably takes care of all that, if he really is an internationally notable musician like you claim him to be ;) Imperatore (talk) 23:57, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

November 2011
You have been blocked from editing for a short time for your disruption caused by edit warring and violation of the three-revert rule&#32;at Sakis Rouvas. During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. If you would like to be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the text below this notice, but you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:58, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Notwithstanding the fact that the other guy was being a good deal more disruptive than you overall, you certainly did restore the "redirect" tag on Sakis Rouvas four times between yesterday 19:00 and this morning (and once more earlier yesterday), and unlike the restoring of the AfD tags on the Gouzounis page, this one can't be counted as reverting of obvious vandalism. (Personal note about the content issue: I had a hard time figuring out what the history of that redirect actually was, and looking at it now I'm not too sure I find the case for the redirect all too clear. I'm tempted to move all the duplicated "Sakis (disambiguation)" and "Sakis (given name)" back to Sakis for the time being, and consider redirecting it again only when a proper discussion documenting WP:PRIMARYTOPIC status in English has been held.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:34, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I am not completely clear on the rules of 3rr, what I know is that pressing the undo button more than three times for a single debate/topic is a violation, based on blocks I have seen in the past on other users. To be honest I kind of lost track of messy directions of the redirects and ended up making some mistakes myself. I don't know how given name and disambiguation ended up as two seperate articles. Sakis originally redirected to Rouvas, this was established and agreed upon a long time ago because he is the only one of the few linked persons with that name to be widely known mononymously or actually release works under that name. Since the primary topic is the most widely known/notable under that name it makes perfect sense for it to go to Rouvas, a simple google search of Sakis can prove that and the prominence of the mononym is sourced in his article. Then these editors started claiming that some random indie artist goes by the mononym (although not officially) claiming ridiculous stuff like Rouvas is not a well known artist or whatever. "Elvis" redirects to Presley, and it makes sense for the other Sakis page to be a disambiguation or given name page because it is basically listing famous people or topics under that name. I'm not sure if disambiguation is more appropriate though to include things such as Sakis, a plural form for the monkeys etc.GreekStar12 (talk) 07:51, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi. Any change of article content back to a previous version is considered a revert, whether you use "Undo", "Rollback", any of the other tools, or by manual editing. And all reverts on the same page count, even if individual reverts are on different parts of the content. It's fairly clearly explained at WP:3RR -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:46, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The part about it applying to any sort of revert on the same page even if it's different material is a fairly new addition to the rule, so it's understandable if you had not known this. Grk1011 (talk) 13:24, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

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April 2012
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WikiProject Eurovision: Discussion on recategorizing
Hello,

There is currently a discussion ongoing at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision on the proposal of recategorising following the rollout exercise of the new navigation templates (navboxes) within Eurovision articles. The consequences of this discussion could have a large impact on how articles are reorganized in future to provide an easier index system, so all project members are invited to participate in the discussion.

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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - June 2012
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Project Eurovision RFC discussion reminder
WikiProject Eurovision: This is a reminder to all members of Project Eurovision, that there is still an ongoing RfC discussion taking place at the project talk page. It is vital that everyone participates in this discussion, as it concerns the future manual of style and article layout in regards to Eurovision Song Contest by Year and Junior Eurovision Song Contest by Year articles. This is your ideal opportunity to contribute suggestions and ideas on a major issue, which will reflect on the way these articles will be written in future. Thank You! EdwardsBot (talk) 14:09, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - July 2012
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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - August 2012
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WikiProject Eurovision: Recent changes
Hello,

Please note that there have been some changes to operations surrounding Eurovision articles, these being that:


 * Template names have now been modernised and/or megred into super-templates, for example Countries in the Eurovision Song Contest has now been merged into Template:Eurovision Song Contest making it even easier to find everything under one template. If you are planning to create a new template, please keep the standardised titles in mind.  Other templates have been modernised and a full list of them can be found here.
 * The Eurovision Song Contest and Junior Eurovision Song Contest articles have now been standardised to keep a consitancy throughout the project and to the genral reader too. Skeleton article drafts can be found for Eurovision Song Contest by Year and Junior Eurovision Song Contest by Year.

If you have any questions, please ask at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision.

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Delivered by EdwardsBot (talk) 14:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC) on behalf of Project Eurovision

WP:Eurovision Newsletter (September 2012)
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Project Memorandum
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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - October 2012
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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - November 2012
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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - December 2012
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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - January 2013
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Songs by songwriter
You have created one or more sub-categories in this scheme which I have nominated for deletion here. This nomination is only on the grounds that there is no corresponding article. If an editor can create a suitable article then there is no reason why the category(ies) should be deleted. Cheers. --Richhoncho (talk) 11:59, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - February 2013
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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - March 2013
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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - April 2013
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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - May 2013
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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - June 2013
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WikiProject Eurovision - Memorandum
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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - July 2013
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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - August 2013
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Albanian help needed
Hello GreekStar12, I'm contacting you because we need some Albanian translators to help with the deployment of the new VisualEditor on sq.wikipedia. There are help pages, user guides, and description pages that need translating, as well as the interface itself. The translating work is going on over on MediaWiki: Translation Central. I also need help with a personal message for the Albanian Wikipedians. If you are able to help in any way, either reply here, or head over to TranslationCentral. Thanks for your time, PEarley (WMF) (talk) 17:11, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - September 2013
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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - October 2013
This newsletter was delivered by EdwardsBot (talk) 00:28, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Sakis Rouvas
The problem is that the version you keep reverting to is bad beyond belief: bad grammar and puffery to an extent that it looks like an ad campaign: "who is the most commercially successful entertainer of all time in Greece and Cyprus and also one of the most influential", "Rouvas' uninhibited performance style, coupled with continuously pushing the boundaries of socially acceptable content with his image and art led to him becoming a lightning rod for sociopolitical and religious controversy", " the most attractive man in entertainment, a title for which he has received heavy attention, ", and similar statements simply have no place here. If you want to add factual, neutral material to the article, feel free, but don't restore statements like that.&mdash;Kww(talk) 17:09, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I did read my talk page first: as I stated above, the version you are reverting to is terrible. Absolutely terrible. Stop creating an advertising campaign, and write an encylopedia article.&mdash;Kww(talk) 17:13, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Multiple reverts on Sakis Rouvas
You have reverted, twice, a significant amount of constructive editing on Sakis Rouvas. The text to which you reverted contains puffery and unsourced claims, not to mention bad grammar and non-neutral writing. You have been blocked before for edit warring on this article. Please take the time to re-read the relevant WP links above.

Here's just one example of the difference between the constructively-edited article and the version to which you are reverting:

Before constructive editing (the version to which you are reverting): "The collaboration with Karvelas, one of the most successful and iconic producers of the past two decades with the young artist resulted in mixed reaction by the media. When asked why he had chosen to collaborate with Rouvas, Karvelas simply gave a controversial response, stating that "Sakis is the only star, out of a generation which produces dull artists.""

After constructive editing (the version you appear not to like): "Rouvas' collaboration with Karvelas was received skeptically by the media; when asked why he had chosen to collaborate with Rouvas, Karvelas said: "Sakis is the only star out of a generation which produces dull artists.""

I hope that you can see that the latter version contains less puffery, contains fewer grammatical mistakes, is more readable, and is much more neutral in tone. The rest of the article is similar. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:15, 16 March 2014 (UTC)


 * You're kidding me that it contains fewer grammatical mistakes, this version uses a lot of Greek language conventions and is very obvious was not written by a fluent reader. A lot of the time it doesn't even do anything for the neutrality is the funny thing except for make the writing very basic and bland. You've got to realize that the article is long and some of the writing is quite old. The specific line you pointed out about Karvelas I don't like either, both lines need work and aren't fully supported by the source (re: the skepticism). This version has a lot of poor formatting, wrong conventions for song titles and films, strange placement of parts of sentences in brackets, poor cutoffs, wrong emphasis in phrasing, and generally has poor flow. It seems as if it should be on the Simple English. The lead I wrote fully covered the subject and was supported by the sources in the article. Obviously it needed some trimming and reworking but everything was factual, unfortunately me and the other editors haven't been very active lately. In this version there are a lot of non-contentious or sourced things missing, inexplicably, especially in the prose. Also, the user has completely manipulated the translations of some of the Greek sources to convey a different meaning and you want to talk about NPOV? Please see my responses on user talk:Kww to see more specifics. Kww's latest version of the lead is a complete waste of work and not representative at all. Also it covers a vary small section of the artists career (1990s) only and has completely lost all neutrality. GreekStar12 (talk) 18:12, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the response. Good luck with your efforts to improve the article. I will let your assessment of the article's grammar and quality of writing stand on its own next to your own grammar in the paragraph above. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:38, 16 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Umm, what exactly is that supposed to mean? These are some examples in that other user's version "is a Greek model, recording, film and television artist, businessman and former pole vaulter." "Rouvas is noted for avoiding domestic music, attaining success for a non-laïko or -éntekhno artist," "is the all-time bestselling single" "his personal life (including his military service and 1997 Greek-Turkish peace concert, which damaged his public image) has been publicized. [pretty sure peace concert was a professional venture, and what's with these brackets?) "Man of the Year Awards" (from Greek it translates to MEN), "Known for his independence" (peacock term much? Independent what? Autonomy in the music industry says it all) AND THAT'S JUST THE LEAD!  "(a duty-free shop clerk at the local airport)." Again why brackets? The family was poor" vs "he grew up in a poor family"? "At age four, he exhibited athletic ability and took ballet classes as a child." This one wasn't even factually correct, it's a mashup of two sentences. "discovered music, which he enjoyed nearly as much as athletics." Really? So I guess that's why he's an athlete now then? "Working during the day, Rouvas went to school at night with his mother (who had not finished secondary school). " For one, it's called lyceum and this makes it sound silly, as if she was taking him by the hand. What it means is she was also finishing up her diploma. GreekStar12 (talk) 19:11, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

As always, if you want to add neutrally phrased material to the article, go ahead: I just stripped out the obvious fannishness because you were committed to keeping the version of the main article around. Just don't add in material that serves only to praise the subject.

I also note your confusion about brackets with concern. You do realize that they are a part of the markup for the encyclopedia, don't you?&mdash;Kww(talk) 19:25, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Again I don't understand why you are going around being condescending. There is a time and place to use brackets, when adding helpful information that aids in understanding but would be awkward to place in the sentence otherwise, which isn't really the case here. Anyway, like I said all of the material in the lead was sourced and the things you pointed out 1) commercial success 2) being one of the most attractive celebrities 3) controversy are acceptable lead content as I proved by several FAs. And like I said all of the material was SOURCED. There was also information about controversies, image overshadowing music, personal struggles so I don't see how there is only info praising the artist. What you did was much worse, taking it to a negative POV, deleting history, misrepresenting the whole subject. You probably have no knowledge of the subject and it doesn't seem as if you've actually attempted to see if the info is verified. Wouldn't it just have been easier to reword the parts you didn't like? I even offered to do it for you. I 'm going to do one more revert and hope you will cooperate, seeing as how I have no intent to edit war with you and am actually willing to do the work. But please don't just make completely destructive edits and override multiple sources. Thank you. GreekStar12 (talk) 19:39, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Are you listening to anyone, or just typing? Your version of the article is unsalvagably bad. As for your bracket complaint above, I'm not being condescending. The particular text you refer to " "(a duty-free shop clerk at the local airport)." Again why brackets? " is an example of using wikimarkup, not of using brackets in the normal sense of English. Note how it expands: "(a duty-free shop clerk at the local airport)" and how all the brackets disappear. Anyway, you are an established editor: you know not to edit war. I've asked you multiple times to stop restoring the puffery in this article, and you refuse to do so. I've pointed out particular complaints, and you continuously insert them. Other editors have tried to repair it, and you've sabotaged their efforts.&mdash;Kww(talk) 20:17, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

March 2014
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 31 hours for edit-warring and disruptive editing at Sakis Rouvas. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the following text below this notice:. However, you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:49, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Looking for help
Greetings: My name is Ivan Robaina Bychko and I am a 19 years old Cuban Wikipedia who currently works in several articles about Greece both in Spanish Wikipedia and at my university (University of Santiago -Universidad de Oriente-/you can see the link here: www.uo.edu.cu). I am very interested in the history, society and culture of your country and I would be very thankful if you would be willing to help me to collect some information about your country that is difficult to find in bibliography (It is even harder to find to me since I do not have international internet connectivity). I am not exaggerating when I say that I would also be honored to correspond to a Greek citizen, since I feel high admiration for the inhabitants of such a beautiful nation. In case you want to contact me, my e-mail account is: nayesda.daria@medired.scu.sld.cu Humbly waiting for your willingness to help me Sincerely yours, Ivan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.220.215.14 (talk) 04:18, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - Issue 40
This newsletter was delivered by MediaWiki message delivery (talk), on behalf of 09:51, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject Eurovision - consensus discussion
There is a discussion regarding colour coding on articles taking place on the project talk page that requires input from as many project members as possible. Thank you, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:15, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - Issue 41
This newsletter was delivered by MediaWiki message delivery (talk), on behalf of 15:49, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - Issue 42
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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - Issue 43
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WikiProject Eurovision - Urgent Message
Dear Project Eurovision Member,

There is a serious discussion been created at the WikiProject Eurovision talk page that requires utmost attention from all, or as many members as possible, as this could bear a huge impact on the project as a whole. Please click here to read the discussion, and participate peacefully. Thank you. This message was delivered at 04:41, 23 November 2014 (UTC) by MediaWiki message delivery (talk), on behalf of Project Eurovision Newsdesk

WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - Issue 44
This newsletter was delivered by MediaWiki message delivery (talk), on behalf of 18:12, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - Issue 45
This newsletter was delivered by MediaWiki message delivery (talk), on behalf of WikiProject Eurovision at 11:26, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject Eurovision Cup - March 2015
This notice was delivered by MediaWiki message delivery (talk), on behalf of WikiProject Eurovision at 16:17, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - Issue 46
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WikiProject Eurovision Cup - April 2015
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WikiProject Eurovision Cup news
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WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - Issue 47
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ArbCom elections are now open!
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Europe 10,000 Challenge invite
Hi. The WikiProject Europe/The 10,000 Challenge has recently started, based on the UK/Ireland The 10,000 Challenge. The idea is not to record every minor edit, but to create a momentum to motivate editors to produce good content improvements and creations and inspire people to work on more countries than they might otherwise work on. There's also the possibility of establishing smaller country or regional challenges for places like Germany, Italy, the Benelux countries, Iberian Peninsula, Romania, Slovenia etc, much like The 1000 Challenge (Nordic). For this to really work we need diversity and exciting content and editors from a broad range of countries regularly contributing. If you would like to see masses of articles being improved for Europe and your specialist country like WikiProject Africa/The Africa Destubathon, sign up today and once the challenge starts a contest can be organized. This is a way we can target every country of Europe, and steadily vastly improve the encyclopedia. We need numbers to make this work so consider signing up as a participant and also sign under any country sub challenge on the page that you might contribute to! Thank you. -- Ser Amantio di Nicolao Che dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 08:57, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

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Orphaned non-free image File:AntiqueAlliMiaForavideo.jpg
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Disputed non-free use rationale for File:PaparizouJustWalkAwayvideo.jpg
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Disputed non-free use rationale for File:TheleisIDenTheleisvideo.jpg
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Also affected: ℯ xplicit 00:25, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
 * File:ZiseTiZoimusicvideo.jpg
 * File:RouvasThisIsOurNightvideo.jpg
 * File:RouvasToXeroIseMoniVideo.jpg
 * File:RouvasKaneMeVideo.jpg
 * File:RouvasXehaseToVideo.jpg
 * File:RouvasPar'taVideo.jpg
 * File:Rouvas1992Video.jpg
 * File:RouvasMinAndistekeseVideo.jpg
 * File:VissiStinPiravideo.jpg
 * File:PaparizouThaMaiAlliosvideo.jpg
 * File:PaparizouMaziSouvideo.jpg
 * File:PaparizouIZileiaMonaxiavideo.jpg
 * File:PaparizouMyNumberOnevideo.jpg
 * File:PaparizouTheLightinOurSoulvideo.jpg
 * File:PaparizouGigolovideo.jpg
 * File:PaparizouFosvideo.jpg
 * File:PaparizouMambo!Greekvideo.jpg
 * File:PaparizouPirotehnimatavideo.jpg
 * File:PaparizouIKardiaSouPetravideo.jpg
 * File:VandiAgapivideo.jpg
 * File:VandiThelovideo.jpg
 * File:Rouvas+SeThelovideo.jpg
 * File:VissiAgapiIpervolikivideo.jpg
 * File:VissiCallMevideo.jpg
 * File:VandiComeAlongNowvideo.jpg
 * File:Vandi10HMvideo.jpg
 * File:TharrosIAlitheiavideo.jpg
 * File:Stous31Dromousvideo.jpg

Disputed non-free use rationale for File:ZiseTiZoiiTunescover.jpg
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Also affected: ℯ xplicit 00:26, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
 * File:PeggyZinaNoimaTiaracover.jpg
 * File:PeggyZinaNoimaAviatorcover.jpg
 * File:PeggyZinaNoimaWindcover.jpg
 * File:VandiGiaUK.jpg

MfD nomination of Portal:Sakis Rouvas
Portal:Sakis Rouvas, a page which you created or substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Sakis Rouvas and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes ( ~ ). You are free to edit the content of Portal:Sakis Rouvas during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Legacypac (talk) 17:45, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of File:LK-Mr. Cab Driver vynil.jpg


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Proposed deletion of File:Where Are We Runnin'?-DVD.jpg


The file File:Where Are We Runnin'?-DVD.jpg has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "Fails WP:NFCC and WP:NFCC"

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Orphaned non-free image File:AntiqueBlueLoveGreek.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:EvridikiESC2007Promo.jpg
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Proposed deletion of Kostas Kapetanidis


The article Kostas Kapetanidis has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "Doesn't meet WP:MUSICBIO or WP:GNG."

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Orphaned non-free image File:VissiRemixes1997.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:VandiGardenofEdenRussia.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:Rouvas Summer Tour 2008.jpg
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Nomination of Ikto!: 20 Megales Epitihies Tou for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Ikto!: 20 Megales Epitihies Tou is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ikto!: 20 Megales Epitihies Tou until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

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Orphaned non-free image File:KarvelasIkto!.jpg
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Nomination of Hronia Polla for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Hronia Polla is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. – DarkGlow • 19:28, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:RouvasHroniaPolla.jpg
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Category:Greek contemporary laïko singers has been nominated for merging
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"Sixth Studio Album" listed at Redirects for discussion
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Orphaned non-free image File:KarvelasEnaHronoToPerissotero.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:KarvelasOlaIneEndaxi.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:KarvelasOPioEftihismenosAnthroposPanoStiGi.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:VissiMonoIAgapi1982.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:AlexiaAsproMavro.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:ChristoforouMonoYiaMas.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:HatzigiannisGenesis.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:ChristoforouElaElacover.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:OucheneCopycatsingle.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:KopaniaIDon&#39;tWannaLeavesingle.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:NoaAwadThereMustBeAnotherWaycover.jpg
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