User talk:GreekStar12/Archive 1

Gia Sena
First of all, one account is enough, I don't know why you made a new one. Second, yes I know how you pronounce it and that "Yia" would be easier, but that is not how it is done here on wikipedia. It was not my decision, I am just doing what was decided by wikipedia as a whole. If you have a problem with it, you need to start a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Greece. Until then, it will have to stay "Gia". Also why are you so reluctant to talk. Both me and Greekboy offered to talk on MSN/WLM but you just ignored us and instead revert everything. Respond here and give me your email address so we can talk all this over. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 13:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That would be a point to bring up on the talk page. I have wiki-email so if you send me an email (it's on the left when you are on my user page "email this user"), I can get your msn without it being visible to others. Its just the easiest way to communicate and I do it with most users. Waiting for responses and trying to fix things that could have been prevented make talk page communication difficult. The comment on the talk shouldn't have been an attack against me or a lecture for other users, it would have been better if you had made a suggestion to see if others agree, because if there is no consensus for your idea, then it will be reverted and you may be blocked if you keep trying to implement it. Also, I noticed that you joined my Greek singers project which is great, but your unwillingness to communicate through other means will be a setback as the three of us usually edit together and talk about what needs to be done using an instant messenger. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 16:56, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - December 2008
Note: from now on the Newsletter will be "collapsed" for convenience. To see the full letter, click on the "show" button at the right end of the gray bar. This Newsletter was delivered by Grk1011 (talk). If you are no longer interested in WikiProject Eurovision then please remove your name from this list.

categories
If the albums are in Sakis Rouvas albums, then they shouldn't be in Sakis Rouvas as well, that's called double categorizing since its already in a sub category. Also per wp:music, genre categories broken down by albums should not be used because genre tends to be original research. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 04:30, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Read wp:albums again. Also I know I am right about the genres because there was a big debate over getting rid of genres completely. Please look in the category such as Category:Pop albums where you can see that there are no actual albums (only a few that made it through) and at the top of the page it says there should only be subcategories. You need to stop assuming that I am always wrong, I am trying to help you, but you need to learn the ropes first, not bring your own ideas. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 14:28, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Lenny Kravitz Fields of Joy cover.jpg)
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Reply
I replied on my talk page. And I hope you don't think that I called you that name, cause I didn't; I have a 71 ip. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 04:25, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm glad you believe me. It was bothering me that you thought I would say such a thing. I was also a little confused at first as to why you got so mad over me asking you to sign in, and then I saw the edit to your ip in my watchlist and reverted it. See, one of the pluses of signing in, the watchlist! Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 04:44, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Categories
For Rouvas, there was no need to add back those redundant categories. For example, "French language singer" is completely not representative of the artist. Singing 2 french songs as a foreigner of the language does not qualify you as a French singer, nor is Rouvas a notable name in the French speaking world as a singer. In other words, this category is not notable as were the others that I removed. Imperatore (talk) 04:29, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Picture perfect
we need PICTURES!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.138.61.81 (talk) 02:21, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Rouvas Intro
Hey, I took out the information you put into the Intro. The book you sourced is a fan book. That is not very reliable, and creates a biased view -- A big no-no for wikipedia. Remember that wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a fan page. The information you added was not very encyclopedic, and created a biased view. Maybe it would be better off in an "Image" section toward the end, after personal life? Don't take it the wrong way. I am trying to say it nicely. :) (But sometimes that doesn't come out on line) Greekboy (talk) 02:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I am sorry for a full revert, I admit it was reckless of me. Some of the information you added in was indeed biased by using certain phrases such as "All-time classics", while there were also some other mistake. Specifically "Rouvas is recognized as Greece's first pop singer, while he helped popularize Western music genres such as rock, hard rock, blues, funk and R&B and soul in the early 1990s. Rouvas is known for his over-sexualized image and for his elaborate stage shows and music videos that make him a visual spectacle." is right up the alley of Weasel, even though it may be valid. The book may be a biography, and may also have some valid and neutral points, but it also holds some biased to it considering the name "Sakis Rouvas ο απόλυτος Έλληνας ποπ σταρ!". So you must be careful with sources like these. Anyway, I will try to neutralize future adds. It looks like Grk1011 added some of your information back, in a better manner. :) Greekboy (talk) 03:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey. Sorry for the delay in responding to you. I was not very active on wikipedia for the last couple of days. The thing you have to remember when adding in information, is that you have to do it from a neutral point of view. Read over what you plan to add, and think to your self if this supports a certain position. (Such as a fan view). Remember that wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and not a fan zone. Even if you are quoting a record label, tv, magazine, or radio station, they might have said it with their point of view.  Examples of being neutral are instead of saying things like "it was an all time hit", you could say "The song peaked at number 1 for ___ weeks, and is still regarded as one of Rouvas' most recognizable songs today.". Use caution though. You still need to source this information. If you do not, it may be considered using Weasel Words.


 * Regarding Rouvas' image, maybe you could make a section on it toward the end and add in sourced information. But remember to be neutral when doing this. I'm not sure how to guide you into posting information like this correctly (I mean not sounding POV), since it is an iffy subject since most of it is in fact fan related, but I (As well as other members like Grk1011 -- he is always on line) will try to correct any mistakes we see having to do with neutrality. Like maybe word it such as "Rouvas has been characterized by ____ magazine as _______"


 * Regarding sourcing, you should try to always source on line material if possible or written material (Such as newspapers) as an alternative. Generally though, Television shows should not be used as sources themselves for important information. They can be used in some cases though, but online and written sources are preferred, especially when talking about important subjects.


 * Also regarding the singles discography template you made, I know you put in a ton of work into it, but I think it will be put up for deletion unfortunately. I asked about it on a wikiproject talk page, and it was suggested for deletion as it doesn't really comply with WP:NAVBOX.  WP:NAVBOX says that "navigation templates provide navigation", "the goal is not to cram as many related articles as possible into one space"..  With the singles discography template, almost all of the singles in it do not have their own page. So that defeats the purpose of having a navigation box/template since you can't navigate.  Almost all of the singles are only radio singles too with video clips (I know, thats how singles are released Greece unfortunately), so they don't warrant their own page anyway as they don't meet notability guidelines. Most of his notable releases (Such as CD singles) are already linked and covered on the main template/navigation box with the discography being linked too, to cover anything missed. I just wanted to give you a heads up before someone sees it and puts it up for deletion, and you would be wondering why.


 * Anyway, I hope I helped answer your questions. If you have anymore, let me know. I am hear to help. :) By the way, you wrote that you have given priority to Rouvas related articles since he is going to be in Eurovision. When Rouvas was announced in July by ERT, I expanded his main page drastically, writing his whole detailed bio and sourcing it all. :) Greekboy (talk) 22:44, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Hey. If you haven't noticed, I added some of the intro stuff back in, while making it less POV. :) Anyway, I just have a quick question. Are you sure the "Ola Kala" tour was a world tour? When I saw Rouvas-Remos live last March, Sakis said that it was his first time doing concerts in the United States, and Remos made a comment about how he "opened the way" for Sakis to come back and tour the US again. Greekboy (talk) 04:44, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for clearing that up. The problem with creating a page for every one of his singles, though important, is that individually, they do not meet the notably guidelines. As for the 3 Eurovision songs, I am not sure if having separate pages will work. It depends if the songs chart and such. On their own, I don't think that they would be considered notable enough in their own sense, and if they do not chart or do not get released as singles individually, they will end up being stubs --- thus being merged later on anyway.  We will see though when the songs are reveled, if there is any information that makes them notable.  Simply being part of the selection process doesn't generally qualify them as notable per WP standards.  For the time being, when revealed, I think they are better off in the Greece in ESC 2009 page unless more information comes up like I said. Greekboy (talk) 07:19, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Individual songs
It's good to know that just because other stuff exists on wikipedia, doesn't make it right. See Other stuff exists. The Paparizou singles are actually going to be proposed to be merged into their respective albums. Me and another user were talking about it the other day coincidently. (And if you look, one has already been merged. There are only 2 more left.) I haven't noticed the Garbi ones, but if thats the case, then those should be merged too.

As for song notability, please see Notability (music). In particular it states '' Most songs do not rise to notability for an independent article and should redirect to another relevant article, such as for the songwriter, a prominent album or for the artist who prominently performed the song. Songs that have been ranked on national or significant music charts, that have won significant awards or honors or that have been performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups are probably notable. Notability aside, a separate article on a song is only appropriate when there is enough verifiable material to warrant a reasonably detailed article ; articles unlikely ever to grow beyond stubs should be merged to articles about an artist or album.''

Basically, besides mostly failing the notability guideline, (Remember, if they did chart and such, they must be sourced. That's the tough part) there is simply not enough background information to create these article in most cases, and they will end up as stubs -- unlikely to grow, since there is little information to begin with. Thus end up being merged in later on anyway. As for the ESC songs, as you can see from the above, from the time they are revealed they really don't have the notability required yet for their own articles. Like I said, maybe later on if they are released or something. But for the time being, it is better off to keep them in the main Greece in ESC 2009 article, sort of like Greece in ESC 2005. (But with more information on the songs like Greece in ESC 2008 and Greece in ESC 2007). It will turn out well. A number of Eurovision members and I are working on the article to get it to GA status at least when the contest is over. (Like Greece in ESC 2008) Hopefully that cleared up some questions. lol. Sorry for the multi paragraph response again. :p Greekboy (talk) 19:17, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the biggest problem with adding information about the musical structure and stuff, is that most users (including myself) simply do not know enough about it to add that type of information. And there are no sources on line discussing that either. As for the other 2 Paparizou article, maybe they could be kept. But they would still need to be expanded a bit more to become well-rounded articles.  Greekboy (talk) 20:37, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Hey, I know this isn't my talk page but I wanna get involved since I introduced all the information about Feelings/Dis Lui for the first time when I massively expanded Ola Kala. Dis Lui received a CD single release, but I don't know about Feelings. All these CD singles were only released in France by ULM division (Universal Music France), there is NO indication they were released in other countries by other labels. However, French releases are imported by music retailers all over the world, and thus they were probably available for sale in other countries. Pes Tis, on the other hand, was a Greek only release by Minos EMI, and it should also have its own page. This is just to give you a heads up...better we take on one issue at a time. For the time being, I think Dis Lui and Pes Tis merit separate pages. Imperatore (talk) 21:18, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Regarding the pages, I'm not sure how to go about this. If they are the same song, but in a different language, I THINK the way to do it is make a page with the most common/popular name (the one that gained most publicity) then make a section for both CD-singles. Like 1 info box, with the alt. cover, and 2 different track lists, and information. I could be wrong though. By the way, User:Imperatore above is extremely good with label and release information -- just to let you know. :) Greekboy (talk) 21:38, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Rouvas picture
The rationale for that image is only valid on one page. We need to limit the use of non-free images and the use of the Rouvas pic on the Greece in ESC page doesn't pass the criteria for admittance as seen here. Re-uploading the image and putting a rationale on it does not work either because it still doesn't grant you the right to use someone else's picture. The best thing to do would be to find someone that was there who is willing to upload an image under a free license or check flickr for pictures with licenses that allow their use on wikipedia. I'll leave them for now, but there is no chance that you will be able to defend them when someone else who knows the guidelines finds them. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 06:18, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh really, lol, and you randomly picked to give it a screenshot license? ;) Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 06:27, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The license says that it is a screenshot, like an image from the contest broadcast on tv as opposed to an image taken by you at the contest. The first type you can't use on the Greece page, the second type you can. The difference is that it was an image of an "important" event in his life. Its use on the Greece in ESC page is more decorative and it really isn't that necessary. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 06:31, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You would have to physically be there and take it, the fact that it is your screenshot won't cut it since its still copyrighted by the network. I'm telling you now, your rationale will not hold up. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I responded on my page. Its common for people to respond and continue a conversation on one page. So if i start a convo here, respond here. If you write on my page, expect my response there. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 00:04, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - January 2009
Note: the Newsletter is "collapsed" for convenience. To see the full letter, click on the "show" button at the right end of the gray bar. If you are no longer interested in WikiProject Eurovision then please remove your name from this list. This Newsletter was delivered by Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 23:59, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Greece in the Eurovision Song Contest 2009
Hey, just to let you know, any image you upload needs to be your own, especially for this page, since we plan to get it up to GA (Good article) status after the contest. Pictures from ERT don't stand up to that status. (We tried in past years, like in Greece in ESC 2008, to no avail). One of the images at least had to be removed since it had no license. But one image of one of the conferences, one of the national final, and one of the ESC performance in May should be enough for the article anyway. But they can't be from ERT or any other copyright source. For now I have left in the once picture from the conferance until a free alternative can be found.

By the way, don't think we forgot about this article. We are waiting for the National Final to take place, so we can know how to structure the article better to fit with this year. Anyway, just wanted to give you a heads up. :) 10:00, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Sakis Rouvas singles discography
Template:Sakis Rouvas singles discography has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 18:11, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Track listings
I noticed you using the normal tables for the track listings. Try using the Tracklist template. It looks a lot nicer and is all formatted ready for inputs and we generally don't use those tables. I remember using them when I first started, but since then, they've all been changed. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 03:25, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I Agree. Templates that conform to Wiki Projects Albums are necessary. Also the current table's columns don't work because the "Production credit(s)" heading can mean anyone who contributed to the production of the song. Of course using the template will solve any colloquial descriptions. Imperatore (talk) 04:28, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I can change the production credit title to lyricist/composer, however, saying that they look nicer is POV. I looked around before creating them, and I noticed that the majority of articles (including all articles for American/English artists) that use boxes to display track listings use these ones and not the tracklist ones, (and they are generally mostly higher class articles, ie madonna, shakira etc). I find the tracklist box does not look very nice and sometimes can be messy. For example, I noticed it is being used on Vrisko To Logo Na Zo, and wherever an additional bracket is needed, it kind of looks sloppy as the bracketed note is featured in the quotation marks although it is not part of the song title as seen in "Papeles Mojados (Duet with Chambao)" (Wet Papers) and "To'Heis I De To'Heis (Hip Teens Don't Wear Blue Jeans)" (You have it or you don't have it). Another issue is that they are so standard, they don't really allow any wiggle room. In the case of albums with DVD, most DVDs don't offer lengths, so the whole row will just be blank. Also, DVDs don't need writer credits, but ones for direction, which this template does not allow. Using a different box for a song tracklist and a DVD tracklist that are from the same album is inconsistent, which is the problem I ran into when creating Live Ballads, so I just switched to the standard template. You have 2 remember that not all albums are created "standard". This is the same reason each country doesn't have a standard format for individual eurovision pages. I think that's why a lot of users opt for these normal boxes instead. (GreekStar12 (talk) 21:01, 4 March 2009 (UTC))
 * I kind of see what you mean with regards to brackets in the track listing template. This is why we have made all translations using the "small" tag so that they appear differentiated from the actual song title. Moreover, I really like the track listing template but I do recognize that for our purpose it can look cramped (when dealing with translations and with songs that are covers of english songs that have their own titles in brackets). However I do not see how a standard table makes things look any nicer. Bottom line is that "Production Credit(s)" has got too go, and of course music and lyrics columns should go in. Also, seeing as it involves quite a few covers, an "original song" column is also appropriate. Imperatore (talk) 22:07, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Monadikes Erminies
Hi, this promotional release doesn't appear to be an EP. An CD EP is generally characterized as follows: "With the advent of the Compact disc, more music was often included on 'single' releases, with 4 or 5 tracks being common, and playing times of up to 25 minutes.[1]". Of course it's not an absolute definition but I do not see how it exhibits any characteristics of an EP. Also can you please tell me if you are completely sure that it's a Universal Music release (under Mercury imprint) since in the description it talks about permissions from Minos EMI. Imperatore (talk) 04:20, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oops! My mistake, I accidently wrote Universal in the box. Thanks, I'll fix it. As for the EP part, I was thinking the same thing too. However, it is not a single and it is not really a compilation album, but rather a promotional record. I might have to change it to the salmon box as a miscellaneous unofficial album, however, I think I'll just leave it for now cause there are a couple of other Rouvas album articles I was going to create, which will make this one easier to categorize. Recently, I majorly expanded and organized the artist discography page. If u want, you can take a look and tell me where you think it would fit in.

P.S.: the exact definition of an EP is "a phonograph record that is the size of a single but contains a longer recording and is designed to be played at 33 ⅓ revolutions per minute rather than 45". (GreekStar12 (talk) 20:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC))
 * As stated in the phrase, that is the definition of a phonograph EP (ie an LP)- this is why I grabbed the CD era definition of an EP, as posted above. I would describe this as a "promotional compilation". Imperatore (talk) 21:55, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Btw, I'm glad that you've finally responded to me :) !! Imperatore (talk) 22:12, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Οh, sorry! I hope you didn't think I was ever ignoring you. I've seen some of your edits and I think they are quite helpful. But I noticed that you don't have a "leave a message" link on your user page. That is quite helpful for initially getting in touch with other users. I would be happy to work with you on various articles. BTW, about the box discussion above, the standard box just gives you more option, and what I was thinking was that we should probably write the name of the songs in Greek script where the english translation is put in small. Regarding this compilation, it was never issued for sale, although widely distributed. :. should I just write promotional compilation and use the miscellaneous box, do you think? If you look at Sakis Rouvas discography, there is a section of unofficial compilations. I think this should go there, but since I haven't made the articles for those albums yet, I'm not sure if I should just call it a miscellaneous release. (GreekStar12 (talk) 22:51, 4 March 2009 (UTC))
 * I'm not crazy about promo only releases. According to WP:NALBUMS, Demos, mixtapes, bootlegs, promo-only, and unreleased albums are in general not notable; however, they may be notable if they have significant independent coverage in reliable sources. There may be a difference between what the wiki community and you call "significant coverage" so I'll leave it up to your judgment. Generally unofficial releases are just that, unofficial, and don't warrant an encyclopedia article. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 18:29, 10 March 2009 (UTC)