User talk:Green Tentacle/Archive 3

Orphaned fair use image (Image:FA Premier League.png)
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 * BJBot seems to have a bug in it. The image that was orphaned was originally uploaded by myself but since then had been 'updated' by another user to a very different image and it was this one that was removed from the FA Premier League article and replaced by another. Nevertheless, my original image is the most appropriate, so I have reverted to it and placed it back in the article. - Green Tentacle 14:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure how BJBot could have detected this it is not human. BJ Talk 23:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Well if it can detect who originally uploaded the image, surely it can tell who uploaded the latest version of the image? It's that person who should be informed, as it's their image that has been orphaned. - Green Tentacle 00:21, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Most people do not want this as they are just reverting vandalism to the image. BJ Talk 00:32, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

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 * Thanks. Tag added. - Green Tentacle 18:22, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

British Home Championship
Hi - I see that you have reverted my edits to the style in which the seasons are shown both in the text and in the table from the style 1983-84 to 1983-1984. I take your point that the MoS is more or less silent on this matter, although there seems to be a general concensus that 1983-84 is preferable. Rather than get involved in a disagreement, I have posted a comment for discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football and I would invite you to add your thoughts.

Best wishes and happy editing. Daemonic Kangaroo 18:52, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi - I really don't know why I changed it back. Perhaps it was because I originally wrote the article and don't want to see my finely crafted digits go! Thanks for letting me know about the discussion. I have added my thoughts. - Green Tentacle 19:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

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 * Done. Thanks. - Green Tentacle 20:26, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:Dott-screenshot.png
Hello, Green Tentacle. An automated process has found and removed an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under fair use that was in your userspace. The image (Image:Dott-screenshot.png) was found at the following location: User:Green Tentacle. This image or media was attempted to be removed per criterion number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media was replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg, so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image or    media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 01:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Edits to English Football League System
Hi - noticed your comment about removing the links to the divisional articles of the Combined Counties League - "Why remove them because the articles exist?" I am intending to make the divisional articles redirects to the main league article, just as I have with the Wessex League for example, but am first tidying things up by removing the links to what will be, in the next day or two, redirects. I think I'm going about this the right way around, but if you feel otherwise please feel free to comment. - fchd 07:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the delay in replying. Well, I think if there is enough content for separate articles, or there ever will be, then the articles should exist (even if in stub form). Nevertheless, I think the fact that I had that all I saw was that links to legitimate articles had been removed shows that you probably did do it the wrong way round; it probably would have been better if you had converted the articles into redirects and then removed the links, probably all in one sitting. But of course, that's only my opinion. - Green Tentacle 16:48, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

GCSE
Please see Talk:General Certificate of Secondary Education. MHDIV ɪŋglɪʃnɜː(r)d  ( Suggestion? | wanna chat? ) 12:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Replied on the article's talk page. - Green Tentacle 13:14, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

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Image:Team_GB.png
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 * Thanks. Done. - Green Tentacle 11:45, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Image:University_of_Sheffield_logo.png
I have tagged Image:University_of_Sheffield_logo.png as no rationale, because it does not provide a fair use rationale. If you believe the image to be acceptable for fair use according to Wikipedia policy, please provide a rationale explaining as much, in accordance with the fair use rationale guideline, on the image description page. Please also consider using or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags. Thank you. Bigr Tex  23:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Done. - Green Tentacle 16:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

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Brian Clough Trophy
Hi. I am intrigued to see that you have deleted the background section that I added to the above page wholesale. In addition, you left the rather sarcastic comment that it was "largely irrelevant". As far as I am concerned an article should be readable as a single entity, and shouldn't require that you have to navigate back and forth just to get even the most simple background information. That section went much of the way to answering the questions that I had when I first came across the page, namely: why was this Trophy so recently set up, why Derby and Nottingham, and why Brian Clough? As for your comment about the tram, that section was intended to convey the information that the Brian Clough Trophy is just one of a number of comemorative namings that have taken place in both cities. The section was not long, it distilled the essential information into just two paragraphs, and it used a third paragraph to set the Trophy into proper context alongside the remainder. Your assertion that the information is largely (only largely, so you admit that you did delete some information not) elsewhere hides the fact that to find the rest of the information you would need to trawl through the very much larger pages on Brian Clough, Derby and Nottingham. Now, I admit that I am quite new to editing in any serious way, but it would seem to me that deleteing another's work out of hand, with no prior discussion, violated Wikipedia's "assume good faith" principle. I'd appreciate hearing your reasoning. Flicktokick 09:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * There is nothing sarcastic about the phrase 'largely irrelevant'. A tram has nothing to do with a football trophy! Anyway, I possibly was too hasty in removing the information, for which I apologise. I think my edit summary did not help - the phrase 'largely irrelevant' probably should have read 'unencyclopædic'. A lot of the wording sounded more like it came out of magazine article than an encyclopædia. Phrases like 'historically have competed for prestige, jobs, investment' and 'perhaps the greatest rivalry of the last century' need references to prove them and words like 'Cloughie' should never be found in an encyclopæia. Perhaps the most worrying phrase is 'the inhabitants of Nottingham and Derby have long maintained a particular animosity for one another' - try replacing 'Nottingham and Derby' with 'France and Germany' and see how long it lasts on Wikipedia. Anyway, I take your main point and have restored your section, but made the tone more encyclopædic, which is probably what I should have done in the first place. My apologies. - Green Tentacle 16:18, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I'm still getting used to this tone factor, and I take your point completely. I would disagree with your statement that the animosity comment is worrying though. After all, it is true! I'm wondering how to get that point across while still conforming to this NOPV stricture? Flicktokick 16:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it's true in football terms, but it's certainly not true in general terms. Not everyone from Derby and Nottingham hate each other! I think the phrase 'Derby County and Nottingham Forest, football clubs located just a few miles apart, have long been arch rivals' is more than adequate. - Green Tentacle 16:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Well firstly I never said "hate". The phrase "particular animosity" was carefully chosen to reflect the needling jealousy and one-upmanship that does exist between the two cities, on both sporting and civic levels. I agree that your phrasing describes the footballing situation, I was initially aiming to give wider context, but never mind. The wider context is needed to explain why Brian Clough's influence is greater than just sport. His campaigning on behalf of the Labour Party is sometimes creditied with having a disproportionate influence on the political landscape of each town, for instance. Anyway, so much for context. In additon to my previous comments, I've just noticed that you didn't remove my section, you just reverted all of my edits! Come on, if you wan't to claim encylopedic high-ground at least play the game properly and only remove what needs to be removed. Flicktokick 16:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Well I'm afraid the word 'animosity' means 'active hatrid', so that's what people will take it to mean! - Green Tentacle 16:57, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Two can play at that game ;-). It also simply means a feeling or spirit of hostility and resentment. I, personally, have always understoood animosity to be one step removed from outright hatred. More of a repressed, insidious emotion. You pays yer money... Flicktokick 17:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * What is with you? I am trying very hard to assume good faith, but your actions are putting that assumption under a great deal of stress. The first game is still ten days away, so the competition can not yet be referred to in the present tense. Even if it is fairly soon, that does mean that your actions mean that the article will be factually inaccurate for more than a week! The article can easily be changed at the correct time, so why make it wrong now? Not only that, but yet again you have simply reverted my edits rather than adjusting the parts of it that you, personally, take issue with. Your actions mean that you have deleted relevant information, and the article is now gramatically askew, and the syntax is horrible. Flicktokick 21:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The Brian Clough Trophy is a trophy. It's fair to assume that the trophy physically exists, so it can be referred to in the present tense. It's just that the first match has not yet been played. Your other changes removed links from the lead and put the rules below the background, when the rules should come first, as they are more important. You also added information to sections that will have to be removed later (such as the date of the first match to the lead and a rule applying to just one match in the rules section). Ultimately, Wikipedia is an encyclopædia and the current version should, as far as possible, still make sense even if it is read much later (as it will be, due to other websites republishing the content). The grammar also works fine, unlike your version, where the rules section changes tense twice without explanation. - Green Tentacle 00:32, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * For the vast majority of sporting awards (e.g. FA Cup, Football League Cup, Winston Cup) the award is referred to in the abstract, and the physical trophy is merely the tangible expression of that. If you want to draw a parallel with the way that the Calcutta Cup is described (and after all I did bring that up) then to mimic this article the BCT one should read "a trophy that will be awarded". To date it has not been. Also, as I stated above, my reading of the press releases and news articles are that the trophy will be inagurated at the initial match. Essentially, this indicates that there is not yet any physical object named "The Brian Clough Trophy". It will only become so when officially decreed at Pride Park on the 31st. To state that everything should be in the present tense just because a bit of silverplate has been knocked out into a cup shape is wrong, and goes against previous precedent. Also, your assertion that the rules section should come first is a little strange, as most articles progress from generalities to specifics, they don't throw detailed information in at the start, then broaden to background, before becoming ever more specific with a list of winners! You need a logical structure. Start broad, focus in.


 * Secondly, well how about a few examples from the version you keep reverting to...
 * "is an football (soccer) trophy" - do I need to point this one out?
 * "trophy has been awarded" - no it hasn't.
 * "Matches are held" - ok, I missed this the first time, my bad, but you need "to be" in the middle.
 * "to Rugby union's" - choose: Rugby Union or rugby union, neer the twian and all that...
 * "July 31 2007" - Again, either: 31 July 2007 or July 31, 2007. Personally, as this is a UK competition I reckon British English usage is preferrable, so I'd go for the first, in line with the apparant common usage in all other football articles.
 * "  " - what's wrong with metioning that the first match will be ended on penalties if needed? This is highly unusual for a supposed "friendly" match.


 * I guess, in summary, I just don't see what your problem is with keeping this article in the future. You are talking about an event and an award that will be made in eight days time, the correct time to put this into present (and where appropriate, past) tense. Details may change before then, so the box thing seems highly appropriate to me. What mirror sites do is their own business and lookout, if they choose not to update their feed frequently then they can't expect to be up to date. Flicktokick 07:26, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Please don't change the format of my talk page - it's very bad form. Right, the rules section needs to be first because that's more important than the background and what an average visitor to this page is likely to want to know first, especially given the unusual nature of the competiton. Both the FA Cup and League Cup articles have rules before their histories.


 * Your other points:
 * "is an football (soccer) trophy" - do I need to point this one out?
 * Oops. Changed 'an' to 'a'.
 * "trophy has been awarded" - no it hasn't.
 * Actually, the trophy has been awarded to the winner of every Derby-Forest match since it was announced - it's just that there haven't been any matches yet.
 * "Matches are held" - ok, I missed this the first time, my bad, but you need "to be" in the middle.
 * That's just present tense, as is the rest of the article.
 * "to Rugby union's" - choose: Rugby Union or rugby union, neer the twian and all that...
 * My mistake. Changed.
 * "July 31 2007" - Again, either: 31 July 2007 or July 31, 2007. Personally, as this is a UK competition I reckon British English usage is preferrable, so I'd go for the first, in line with the apparant common usage in all other football articles.
 * Though it's a misconception that there is an official British English way of writing dates, I'm really not bothered how it's written. It will still appear differently for each Wikipedia user, depending on how they have set their date preferences.
 * " - what's wrong with metioning that the first match will be ended on penalties if needed? This is highly unusual for a supposed "friendly" match.
 * There's nothing wrong with mentioning it at all, but a rule for one match should not be mentioned in the rules section, which is for all matches.


 * It just seems a lot of work to make everything future tense and then change it again. Nevertheless, I've changed the whole article to the future tense. Since you went to the trouble of writing such a long comment, you probably deserve your way for sheer effort. - Green Tentacle 13:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image (Image:BBFC U 1970-1982.png)
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Orphaned non-free image (Image:BBFC A 1970-1982.png)
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Orphaned non-free image (Image:BBFC AA 1970-1982.png)
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Orphaned non-free image (Image:BBFC X 1970-1982.png)
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Orphaned non-free image (Image:BBFC R18 1982-2002.png)
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Orphaned non-free image (Image:BBFC U 1982-2002.png)
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Orphaned non-free image (Image:BBFC PG 1982-2002.png)
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Orphaned non-free image (Image:BBFC 18 1982-2002.png)
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Orphaned non-free image (Image:BBFC 12 1989-2002.png)
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Orphaned non-free image (Image:BBFC Uc 2002 onwards.png)
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Orphaned non-free image (Image:BBFC U 2002 onwards.png)
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Orphaned non-free image (Image:BBFC PG 2002 onwards.png)
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Orphaned non-free image (Image:BBFC 12A 2002 onwards.png)
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Orphaned non-free image (Image:BBFC 15 2002 onwards.png)
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Orphaned non-free image (Image:BBFC 18 2002 onwards.png)
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Orphaned non-free image (Image:BBFC R18 2002 onwards.png)
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Fair use rationale for Image:BBFC 12 2002 onwards.png
Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:BBFC 12 2002 onwards.png. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia constitutes fair use. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

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 * Thanks. I did add fair use rationales to all of the BBFC symbols, but I must have missed that one. Someone seems to have added it in for me now. - Green Tentacle 21:37, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:The Book of Mozilla, 7-15.png)
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re: Book of Mozilla
Your edit summary is incorrect, Image:Book of Mozilla 7-15.png does not in fact contain the logo in question (the firefox logo. I don't think the red lizard head is under non-free copyright restrictions like the firefox logo is.) --—Random832 19:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I always thought that the red lizard head (which is in both images) was under the same licence. I might be wrong, though. - Green Tentacle 17:17, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Shakespeare titles
That's odd, because we don't do that in practice at all. I reverted it back to be consistent with all the other plays, but we should definitely talk about this at the Shakespeare project. If we do change Othello, we should change them all. That's why I reverted it, just until we decide so we can get them all right and in agreement. I just started a discussion on the topic at the project page. Wrad 00:56, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * There was certainly a time (a couple of years ago) when this was the case, so we had The Most Excellent and Lamentable Tragedy of Romeo and Juliet and The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark etc. Personally, I think that having the full titles is necessary and the only way to have the Shakespeare's plays articles comply with WP:LEAD (the actual articles should, of course, reside at the common name). More to the point, it offers more information, which is surely what an encyclopaedia is all about. There is, of course, the issue of conflicting full titles, but a quick glance at virtually any of the Arden editions of the plays will find that the hard work of establishing the correct full title has already been done (which is what we did with Romeo and Juliet). - Green Tentacle 01:15, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, don't just tell me, tell the project. I can tell you this, though, things have changed. I'm not the only one who reverts such things. Wrad 01:17, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I wrote my reply when I saw the first version of your message, which you edited three times while I was typing my response. Having seen the most recent version of your message, which mentions the project page, I added my response to your discussion over there. There really is no need to be so rude. - Green Tentacle 01:25, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude. I just wanted to make sure that you and I weren't the only ones talking about it. Others need to be involved, and I didn't know what you were planning to do. And it may have looked rude to say "things have changed", but I was merely stating it as fact. Somewhere along the way, what we said to do, and what we actually did, split into two different things. We need to fix this. I'm sure you'll agree. Wrad 01:26, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It did look rude, but I accept your apology. Of course, we do need to sort this out. I've just added another response on the project page. One of the (many) problems with Wikipedia is the number of policies that change. For example, I currently have a lot of image tag warnings on this talk page; the images were correctly uploaded at the time, but since then the policy has changed and I then get (usually automated) messages lambasting me for not uploading images under rules that had not even been invented when I uploaded them! - Green Tentacle 01:38, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, sorry about that again. Sometimes the shortest way to say things isn't the best way, I guess. I've personally noticed that this is one of the more contested issues on Shakespeare pages, and was hoping for a chance to discuss it. I guess we'll be part of the problem—changing policy again. Wrad 01:42, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:The Guardian.png)
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Disputed fair use rationale for Image:BBFC A 1913-1970.png
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 * See User talk:BetacommandBot. - Green Tentacle 15:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:BBFC H 1932-1951.png
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 * See User talk:BetacommandBot. - Green Tentacle 15:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:BBFC U 1913-1970.png
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 * See User talk:BetacommandBot. - Green Tentacle 15:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:BBFC X 1951-1970.png
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 * See User talk:BetacommandBot. - Green Tentacle 15:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Clearer explanation
Please see here. Thanks. Carcharoth 00:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Derby County F.C. seasons
Hi. I reverted your redirect of Derby County F.C. seasons to History of Derby County F.C.. I did this as these football seasons article can reach all the way to FL status, so I really don't see what improvement removing them is doing for Wikipedia! Just thought I'd let you know. Thanks, Mattythewhite 17:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Given you reverted an edit I made three months ago, I had to think for a while to remember what you're referring to! I'm also afraid that I have no idea what 'these football seasons article can reach all the way to FL status' means. My edit removed nothing: the entire content of the Derby County F.C. seasons article is in the History of Derby County F.C. - there seems very little point in having exactly the same content in two different places. I've therefore changed the seasons article back to a redirect. - Green Tentacle 18:35, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I entirely beg to differ. I recommend you take a look at these two articles: Ipswich Town F.C. seasons and History of Stoke City F.C.. This is why these should be seperate. Mattythewhite 21:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Er, what's your point? Both those articles feature entirely unique content. The content of the Derby County seasons article is entirely copied from the Derby County history page. Wikipedia articles should never consist of content entirely available in other articles. - Green Tentacle 21:34, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah... I never actually saw the table on the history article.. my apologies! I'll remove the table from the history article. Could you please then revert the seasons page, as I'll be on 3RR. Thanks, Mattythewhite 21:35, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your apology. Personally, I feel that the seasons table is best off left on the history page, as it is part of the history and the history page isn't that long. Nevertheless, if you want to change it, feel free. You're no where near breaking the three revert rule, as breaking it would mean reverting the page more than three times in twenty-four hours. You're currently only on one reversion (your first reversion was more than twenty-four hours ago). - Green Tentacle 21:46, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:WJEC.png
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If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted within a couple of days according to our criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 19:53, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Image:WJEC.png has a perfectly good fair use rationale. The problem is that someone else has moved the article from WJEC to Welsh Joint Education Committee. But, because this is Wikipedia, it is my fault that the the user who moved the article did not update the image's fair use rationale, in just the same it will be my fault the next time someone decides to update the fair use rationale guidelines, making all images I've uploaded in the past invalid.


 * I wish bots would spend more time fixing this easy problem rather than shouting at users who have done everything right (again).


 * I've not updated the image's fair use rationale. What's the point? Later on someone will just change something and I'll have to change it again. What a waste of time. - Green Tentacle 22:26, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Team GB.png)
Thanks for uploading Image:Team GB.png. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot (talk) 15:02, 22 December 2007 (UTC)