User talk:Greghenderson2006/Archive 13

Francis Doud content does not match what the sources say

 * Re: clean up, @Graywalls, @Melcous, last night I spent over half-an-hour on the Francis Doud article cleaning up puffery, inaccuracies and some likely promo about the business that is now renting Doud's former house. This is not even one of the PAID articles. I still have to go through and check all the sourcing (I only checked one so far and immediately found inaccuracy.) Netherzone (talk) 15:04, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe we ought to do the actual contents related discussion on the article's talk page and move some of the stuff here to relevant pages so Greg can't remove or archive them at his discretion once the discussion wraps up. Graywalls (talk) 15:30, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Greg, why did you make the claim that during Doud's time in the Army during the Mexican War that he was a community builder when in fact the Barrows source clearly says that he joined "to fight the Indians"? That seems like a biased misrepresentation of the source, therefore not NPOV and also OR. Netherzone (talk) 16:29, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Citation error. Should be He was an influential figure in Montery's bussiness community. Greg Henderson (talk) 17:00, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * But that source you just presented says nothing whatsoever about his military service, so how could it be a "citation error"?
 * What the source you presented above does say, which is not included in either Doud's biography or the article on Doud's house is that the property he acquired belonged to Esequiél Soberane's Malpaso Ranch after Soberane "lost" it through debt. This seems important, esp. re: the history of the house, and I'm curious why these facts related to the Indigenous and Hispanic peoples he interacted with are left out of the story when that information is available. Facts that seem essential to our readers understanding of the multi-cultural and social mileaux are left out, whereas puffery and exaggeration seem to be present in the articles (and these are only among the first few I've begun to review.) How do you make your editorial decisions? Netherzone (talk) 17:30, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * , discreetly alluding to Doud's role, an excerpt from a Berlin newspaper detailing the 1906 San Francisco earthquake, and a letter discussing an unidentified wounded soldier from the Mexican War. Is this an interpretation of primary source document? If so, who made the interpretation like the document/letter is an allusion to Doud's role? Graywalls (talk) 19:41, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Regard Doud and Ezequiel Soberanes, it states here that "Francis Doud, an early Monterey resident, purchased the Soberanes land and other parcels in 1891 to create the Doud Ranch, which ran cattle until the early 1950s. The family's wood-frame ranch house burned to the ground in the 1960s. The State acquired its first parcel of the property in 1980.
 * The Francis Doud Papers are from The Society of California Pioneers and is available in the Online Archieve of California. So the interpretation is coming from them. The point here is to note that there are a folder of 12 items that is titled the Francis Doud Papers, which is available for research and therefore a reliable citation. Greg Henderson (talk) 21:07, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I know, I do my research, but what I am not understanding is why the Indigenous and Hispanic aspects of Doud and Doud House's respective histories have not been included when they are so very essential to early California history. Netherzone (talk) 02:54, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Greg, I found another inaccuracy. The Barrows source says he was "the custodian of the Government property at Monterey" but you wrote: Doud's assignment placed him at the Presidio of Monterey, where his responsibilities included the care of Government property. Tasked with safeguarding these interests, he managed and supervised the maintenance of Government property and its lands. Where did that additional content come from? Netherzone (talk) 16:50, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Government property in Monterey at that time was the Presidio of Monterey, with US occupation of Monterey in 1846. Greg Henderson (talk) 18:01, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Where does this come from: Tasked with safeguarding these interests, he managed and supervised the maintenance of Government property and its lands.? Netherzone (talk) 18:07, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Everything that is sourced to "DPR" is unverifiable. That citation points to the general splash page for the city of Monterey, not to the document or source that could verify the claims. Netherzone (talk) 17:53, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Greghenderson2006, would you be so kind as to answer:
 * Why did you make the claim that Doud was a community builder during his time in the Army when in fact the Barrows source (and others found online) clearly state he joined "to fight the Indians"? Netherzone (talk) 20:09, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * DPR citation and community builder can be removed. Greg Henderson (talk) 21:23, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Please answer the question. Netherzone (talk) 22:43, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Doud was a community builder in that he "was a firm believer in the Chamber of Commerce and contributed a great deal towards advancement in the city and making it known as one of the most delightful places in which to reside... in recognition of his many sacrifices for his country, his family and the community... sympathy of a grieved community." Source: Monterey Daily Cypress and Monterey American Greg Henderson (talk) 22:59, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Please stop avoiding the question. We are talking about his military service. You used a source that stated he joined the Army to "fight the Indians" but you changed the meaning of the source and said he joined the Army be a "community builder." You misrepresented the source by white-washing what it said. You can't twist references to tell the tale you want to spin. To do so deceives our readership. It is deeply problematic, and to continue to avoid a direct answer is disturbing.
 * You then presented two sources that do not speak to his military service at all. Additionally, the Monterey Daily Cypress does not claim he is a "community builder" what it does say is that he sacrificed for his community, and that he will be missed by his community. That is not the same thing, and again, it has nothing to do with his role in the military nor the reason why he joined the Army. Netherzone (talk) 23:19, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The orginal sentence said: "Doud was a California pioneer of 1849, a veteran soldier of the Mexican–American War, and a community builder." This summary is supported by one of many sources in the article. The secondary source next to this sentence is from | Henry D. Barrows, which contains a biography of Doud. In the biography there is a description of Doud, which says that he was (a) pioneer, (b) veteran soldier, (c) had butchering business with a meat market in the town of Monterey, (d) and custodian of government property. So everything matches and the words "community builder" is implied, or suggested in what he did and what he provided for the community in terms of his services. The obituary also points to his. If you want to remove the words "community builder," that is fine, but I think you are paying too much attention to details and not looking at the bigger picture of who Doud was. So, in summary, I agree with you that statements must match the sources, but I would not be overely critcal for an intro to the biography using words that don't completely match the source. In fact, if you look at Abraham Lincoln's article there is no source citation in the opening paragraph. Greg Henderson (talk) 15:54, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Tantamount Theater
,, I just started checking this article on the Tantamount Theater. I removed the two "sources" to Family Search. Then I started checking the article content against the sourcing. I've only made it through the first two paragraphs and found two major instances of original research, or local word-of-mouth content or what may have been simply made up. I deleted that content. It looks like that article also will need a major mopping up or TNT-ing. There still is the rest of the article to go thru and check the sourcing (in addition to the Doud article above.) So the first two of the recent articles created have serious issues. I've started some sub-heads for each of these articles. Perhaps Graywalls idea of creating a list somewhere in userspace for all the articles might be worth it, or not. This is going to mean many, many hours of cleaning up, folks. Netherzone (talk) 21:48, 24 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you for reviewing the Tantamount Theater. I am ok about moving the FamilySearch.org references. However, you removed information from the intro that referenced one of the main characters in the article, Jeanne D'Orge, because it did not match with the source. The theater was created for poet and painter Jeanne D'Orge. A better source is here that is in the article: Stories of old Carmel. (b) Then, when she is introduced in the History section the hyperlink to her main article is missing. (b) You removed "Structural loss of the building was estimated between $80,000 and $100,000  as "superfluous and arduous details." This seems like a fact that is supported by the newspaper account of the fire. The Tantamount Theater was the only puppet theater in Carmel Valley. For an encylopdia, I think it is important to document this and show how it ties in with artist Jeanne D'Orge. Greg Henderson (talk) 22:52, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * See WP:SPS, WP:PRIMARY regarding that personal website you're suggesting as a source. People's personal websites are seldom acceptable as sources, unless it's completely neutral, non-serving information about THEMSELVES, and not about other people. reliable sources deals with what's reliable.. and WP:WEIGHT deals with due weight. So, details that's only covered in people's personal sites and blogs are generally not worthy of inclusion. If it's important enough, other sources would have taken notice. This is an encyclopedia. An article is not a book on a person that chronicles exhaustive details from every available sources. Graywalls (talk) 22:59, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but the link should be this Evenings at the Tantamount Theater. This should be a reliable source. I guess I'll need to do a Edit Request. Greg Henderson (talk) 23:11, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Greg, do you really think an HOA newsletter is an acceptable source?, maybe you could explain it better than I can? Graywalls (talk) 23:25, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes! The article in the newsletter is from the book Stories of Old Carmel: A Centennial Tribute From The Carmel Residents Association, more info here: Stories of Old Carmel The article was written by Richard Flower and is a reliable source. Greg Henderson (talk) 23:34, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * nothing in the newsletter says that the article is from a book. It is not a WP:RS for the information you want to use it for per WP:SELFSOURCE. The link you have given to the introduction of a book in pdf form is also not helpful as it verifies nothing about this. The book itself, might be a reliable source but would need to be properly cited and I'd be interested to know who published it. What seems clear from your edits, and from discussions here, is that you have not been following wikipedia's guidelines about sourcing, as well as those about original research and neutral point of view, and it still doesn't sound like you really understand that. As noted above, this has created hours of work for other editors to review and clean up that could have been spent elsewhere.Melcous (talk) 00:57, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The book Stories of Old Carmel is available online but with no preview or online text. It was written by the non-profit Carmel Residents Association, the same organization that published the newsletter. The key thing is that this book has articles for both Jeanne D'Orge as well as the Tantamount Theater. In terms of sourcing, if I source the newsletter, you can verify the text against the source, but not with the book since there is no preview or online version available. I believe the newsletter version is reliable because it has the author, publisher, date, and the content that describes the relationship between Jeanne D'Orge's Carl Cherry Foundation and the Tantamount Theater. Greg Henderson (talk) 05:00, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Greg, I don't really know why you are so determined to include all those minute details in such granularity but you're just fine inserting some other things that fail verification at the same time. I don't know how everyone else in this discussion feels but Greg, you're welcome to start an RfC to determine if such minute details is proportionate within due weight. Verifiability is mandatory. Passing verifiability isn't an entitlement to include whatever you want. Graywalls (talk) 08:50, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Gary Hugh Brown
I did some clean up of obvious promo/puffery/unsourced content a few days ago. This evening I decided to look into the sources in relation to the claims in the article. I have only just begun, and have found several instances of unsourced content claims that are not backed up by the sources and are either made-up info or original research or word-of-mouth content from the client. I'll continue to review, but if Graywalls or Melcous would like to have a look that would be great. I got thru the Early life and education section. More precious time wasted....slow going. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Netherzone (talk • contribs)

I just noticed that an unverifiable, unpublished "book" self-authored  by the artist Gary Hugh Brown themself (the subject of the article) is used for TEN citations. How on earth is this supposedly a reliable source? After over 10 years of editing, I'm astonished that WP:RS and WP:OR has not been read or understood. I'm seriously questioning competence per WP:CIR and WP:NOT. Netherzone (talk) 20:52, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Forest Hill Hotel, Pacific Grove
@Melcous, @Graywalls, I've just begun cleaning up Forest Hill Hotel, Pacific Grove, another article filled with euphemisms, strained metaphors, overelaboration and promotionally toned language. I've made notes in the edit summaries directing to WP:WORDSTOWATCH. Encyclopedic language is to be neutrally toned per NPOV, and should not explain the subject in overwrought, metaphorical language, nor deploy the use of euphemisms. Greg, please a use direct, neutral tone that does not describe the subject in puffy glowing tones. This article also seems to be part of the Carmel/Carmel-by-the-Sea/Pacific Grove/Monterey walled garden. I suspect it may also be COI/UPE as the way it is written sure seems like it, and was drafted while autopatrolled. I have not yet checked the sources for inaccuracies. Greg, were you paid to create this article? Netherzone (talk) 16:33, 29 August 2023 (UTC)


 * No, I was not paid to write the Forest Hill Hotel, Pacific Grove. What inspired me to write it was an article I read in the Carmel Pine Cone newspaper. I am interested in the Monterey County and therefore took it up an interesting article to write. If you think I am creating a walled garden, then I can stop. I thought it would be interesting to readers to correlate buildings and people of the area. One of the nice things about Wikipedia is that you can learn so much when you read multiple articles related to the subject, not as an isolated community, but how it relates to the greater geographical and cultural area. Greg Henderson (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Lady's Island (South Carolina)
This article contained content about a relative, so it too is undisclosed COI. Equally troubling is that the paragraph was sourced with a reference that did not back up the claims, so it appears it was more original research or word-of-mouth family history. Netherzone (talk) 20:54, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Nomination of Lewis Josselyn for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Lewis Josselyn is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Lewis Josselyn until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished. Melcous (talk) 23:14, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Two THREE more undisclosed COI articles discovered
Greg Henderson, you failed to declare your COI with this article too: Underground House Colorado that you created. The house happened to be owned by Girard B. Henderson another one of your relatives that you created an article for.

It also seems very likely that you have a COI with the Carmel Valley Historical Society that you created. Based on a couple sources, Greg Henderson and the Carmel Valley Historical Society worked together to place a historic marker on the Carmel Valley Vintage Airfield, another of your article creations. Interestingly, Greg Henderson's grandfather, Byington Ford and your uncle Tirey Ford developed the airfield. Even more interesting, Greg Henderson wrote the articles on the Carmel Valley Airfield, Byington Ford, Tirey Ford, and this article on the Carmel Valley Historical Society. And from the Carmel Pine Cone which Greg Henderson often uses for citations: Byington Ford's grandson, Greg Henderson and James Keefe, who owns the post office property and gave the historical society permission to put the marker on his land. pg. 12A -- Netherzone (talk) 23:56, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I also just spotted this: Underground House Las Vegas, another house owned by your relative Girard B. Henderson, was he your uncle? Netherzone (talk) 23:59, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

When this message on the talk page of Underground House Colorado was added by user Genevieve de la Voie Moyenne a month ago: Just as the article for the Underground House Las Vegas - This article is written in an almost breathless, aggrandizing matter - it seems like it was taken word-for-word from an advertising brochure or similar non-objective source. The house should be described in an unbiased and plain-speaking manner., why did you not then admit your COI on both of these articles and tag the articles as a connected contributor, and place a notice on your user page since you knew you were required to do by our guidelines/policies? Netherzone (talk) 16:02, 1 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree, I should have indeed added COI tag to Talk page.
 * Regarding the message on the talk page, I did respond with, "Thanks for your concern. I have removed the peacock terms in the article." Greg Henderson (talk) 16:09, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Please stop evading the issues. You failed to admit your COI on these articles nor tag the articles talk pages or your own user page for these COI articles. Why? Netherzone (talk) 16:16, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I keep finding more articles written where you have named-dropped your relavties. do you think all of these should be tagged for COI? Melcous (talk) 23:06, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Carefully read the Napa Valley Register newspaper clipping in Underground House Las Vegas which reveals that one of the Henderson men bought a controlling interest (51%) in the underground home building company, which suggests why the article creator is so passionate about creating these house articles. Graywalls (talk) 23:21, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Graywalls, I cleaned it up, read thru an older version If you have not already. Netherzone (talk) 00:23, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Melcous and @Graywalls, yes, I think there are many undeclared COI articles. I just found one more: Stapp Lakes.
 * Correcting the poor sourcing, re-reviewing, fact checking, and clean up of puffery/promo has been a tremendous drain on volunteer editor's time. And we have only begun to scratch the surface.
 * I do believe that the many breaches of policy and guidelines from COI to UPE to canvassing requires administrator attention and action.
 * The semester at my academic job starts up next week, and I would put together something for ANI or COIN, but I need to focus on my students at this time. Thanks to the both of you for your time, efforts and community participation! l will continue to be around to monitor the situation, but my time will be somewhat more limited beginning Tuesday. Netherzone (talk) 00:22, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

inappropriate references
Greg, why did you feel this kind of a tour booking site is a reliable and appropriate reference? The one I removed. I don't remember the specific article, but I remember you referenced the description in the active art listing of an art dealer's website. It was a piece priced at over $1,000. You see, this could cause a customer lead to be generated and potentially cause a purchase to occur. If the chance is 0.1% but 1,000 people visit it in six month, that turns to a sale. It's like linking to a long-term eBay that remains listed until it is sold out. Linking to an art dealer's product page could also encourage people to browse with a possibility of conversion into a sale, aka potential COI. Graywalls (talk) 00:20, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

https://wejunket.com/junkets/Monterey/Historic_Monterey/Doud_House/ insertion by Greg was also discovered in Monterey State Historic Park article. I just removed it. What do you all think? I'd think any experienced editor with a reasonable understanding of WP:RS wouldn't dare insert such a source. Graywalls (talk) 06:50, 1 September 2023 (UTC)


 * And another questionable source https://www.bagatellebooks.com/pages/books/1321/tim-reynolds-poet-printmaker-gary-hugh-brown/catfish-goodbye (product buying portal) I removed. Special:Diff/1172583572 Graywalls (talk) 14:18, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * What about? https://www.barrycassidyrarebooks.com/product/23359/Highlands-Inn-Four-Miles-South-of-Carmel-California-Highlands-Inn in Highlands Inn, Carmel Highlands Graywalls (talk) 15:11, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Certainly, I concur that fewer citations like this would be suitable in the above contexts. I included them primarily to provide visual examples of products or locations. In the case of the Highlands Inn, the source pertained to a brochure utilized by the Highlands Inn for promotional purposes. Greg Henderson (talk) 15:59, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I was easily able to find a proper source to support the statement in prose. You were responsible for the insertion of the questionable source of a possible product placement. Graywalls (talk) 16:37, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Lewis Josselyn
This article is on a non- or marginally-notable local photographer who happened to be "close friends" with one of Greg's relatives, Byington Ford (cleverly called By Ford in the article). The "sourcing" and claims for notability is based on photo credits, not on significant coverage of the person himself. Other sources are about his associates, or are hyper-local coverage like The Carmel Pine Cone. Some sourcing is misleading and original research, like this paragraph In 1981, Tom Leyde, editor of The Californian, wrote about the Josselyn's negatives that were archieved in the Pat Hathaway Collection, which includes photos of Carmel poet Robinson Jeffers in front of his Hawk Tower (1925), and the restoration of the Carmel Mission (1919). when all that is in the source about Josselyn are two photo credits (the source is about an archivist, not Josselyn). The fact that a photographer has had images published does not confer notability to the photographer by way of a photo use credit. The source for this claim: In 1970, Josselyn's widow, Jeanne Josselyn, donated over 3,800 original glass plates and film negatives to Pat Hathaway, a photo archivist. doesn't even mention Josselyn's name at all.|title=Recovering part of past. And this claim The Monterey County Historical Society called Hathaway's archive "a valuable resource for historians, scholars, writers, journalists, reporters, teachers and students." is about another person's private photo collection, and the reference (The Carmel Pine Cone, again) just has a one sentence name check about Josselyn.. And this In 2009, Micahel Kenneth Hemp, wrote the book Cannery Row, which describes the history of Cannery Row with photographs by Josselyn, that include photographs of the Point Lobos Canning Company (1916), Monterey Bay storm (1919), Hotel Del Monte fire (1924), Street scene at Lighthouse Avenue, Pacific Grove (1932), and Abalone divers and shells (1930s). is backed up with a book source that is not about the photographer himself, although there are a few photo credits with his name....it seems like puffery. Not sure what the best course of action would be,, / Netherzone (talk) 19:12, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest copying this comment to the article's talk page, then maybe going through the article to take out what is not verified. Then I wonder if this is a candidate for an AfD to see what the community thinks about this kind of local historical notability? Melcous (talk) 22:45, 2 September 2023 (UTC) Added to note that I have just done this, because I think we need to start somewhere in figuring out what the consensus is on these kind of articles. Melcous (talk) 23:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Counterargument against labeling Lewis Josselyn as marginally notable:
 * Just because Lewis Josselyn may have been friends with Byington Ford because they played on a baseball team together, does not mean I have any COI with Lewis Josselyn. There is no COI, so please remove the COI tag.
 * Regarding notability, Lewis Josselyn has received significant coverage in primary sources (21 newspapers citations in the The Californian, Carmel Pine Cone; and 277 images on California Revealed, and others.
 * Author Tom Leyde attributes credit to Lewis Josselyn for two historical photographs (Carmel Mission and Robinson Jeffers Haw Tower) and notes that 3,000 negatives were given to Hathaway by the widow of an late local photogpher, Lewis Josselyn, as indicated in the citation above, which states, "Hathaway’s archive got its start in 1970 when he acquired a collection of photos from the widow of the late local photographer Lewis Josselyn."
 * The statement "The Monterey County Historical Society referred to Hathaway's archive as a valuable resource for historians, scholars, writers, journalists, reporters, teachers, and students" holds true. This assessment applies to both Lewis Josselyn's collection and that of other photographers.
 * The statement by Michael Kenneth Hemp serves as an illustration of how Josselyn's photographs were employed in numerous books, including "Cannery Row."
 * Greg Henderson (talk) 23:30, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I do not think you get what significant coverage means. A newspaper that uses one of his photos and puts his name next to it is not significantly covering his life. You would need sources that actually talk about his life and his work as a photographer, and why it was important, and I have not seen any of these, other than obituaries. Melcous (talk) 06:02, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about the photographer Lewis Josselyn that was deleted? I cited two secondary sources in both my review edits and in the AfD. The sources were: Edwards and Jo Mora, as well as others. If a secondary source is "a document or recording that relates or discusses information originally presented elsewhere," then these authors have reliably discussed Josselyn as an important photographer in Carmel. Or if a secondary source is "a source provides thought and reflection based on primary sources, generally at least one step removed from an event," then these citations apply. Josselyn was known for achievements, not for coverage of achievements. This is why the notability guidelines are just "guidelines", not policy. Greg Henderson (talk) 22:40, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Greg, do you know what significant coverage means? Netherzone (talk) 22:46, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, WP:SIGCOV is significant coverage addresses the topic directly and in detail, which the citations do: 635 words in Edwards, which is biography, and 587 words in Jo Mora's citation saying he was a friend and photogpher who chronicled the Moras over two decades. There are also citations that describe his importance as the official photogpher for the Forest Theater with hundreds of photos. Pat Hathaway had is collection, which has been turned over to the Monterey County Historical Society. I spoke to the curator of his photographs at MCHS over the phone who can testify to his notability. Greg Henderson (talk) 23:39, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Greg, I don't consider 500 or 600 words in obscure 2 hyper-local publications SIGCOV. A chapter in a credible art history or photo history book, plus reviews of his work, and perhaps a monograph would be SIGCOV.
 * And by the way, on another note, you forgot to mention that you have a family-related COI with Jo Mora, and you probably should not have been editing that article directly, esp. since you are the top editor for that article. I went ahead and added the COI tags to the article which you should have done years ago and placed a disclosure on your user page. Netherzone (talk) 00:57, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I have no COI with Jo Mora. He is not related to me at all. Please remove the COI tag. If you must, put it on the Talk page. In terms of WP:SIGCOV, this is a guideline not a must have. Notability is when the subject has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, which is what I have cited. Greg Henderson (talk) 01:10, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * There is off-wiki evidence, I did not say Jo Mora was related to you personally. Netherzone (talk) 01:13, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Greg, there are only a few firm policy on Wikipedia and those are things like prohibition on undisclosed paid editing and copyright violations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_legal_policies Now, instead of continuing on these discussions between you, I, Netherzone and Melcous, it might be for the benefit of all if you took your questions about notability of people to Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people), being sure to link to your talk page discussion. Graywalls (talk) 23:23, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Roberto-Suñol Adobe
Hello Greg, I saw this draft at New Page Patrol. Is it a paid article? If so that should be disclosed. Netherzone (talk) 04:52, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * It is not a paid article. I'am doing because it is a local landmark. Greg Henderson (talk) 04:59, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Netherzone (talk) 05:01, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

== Your submission at Articles for creation: Template:California Historical Landmarks in Santa Clara County (September 17) ==  Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Timtrent was:

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.


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🇺🇦 Fiddle Timtrent  Faddle Talk to me 🇺🇦 21:35, 17 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The template is similiar to Template:California Historical Landmarks in Calaveras County, California. My template would be used with the following landmark articles at California Historical Landmarks in Santa Clara County. It would be added to the articles and would allow the user to see the list of landmarks for Santa Clara County that are listed in the template. Please let me know what you think? Greg Henderson (talk) 22:15, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * (copied from my user talk page) I know what it would be used for. I am concerned about a number of things, not least of which is that the titles given in the template appear to me to be deceptive. An additional concern is that such a template would have an effect of appearing to legitimise the walled garden that and others are investigating.  I am also interested since you are blocked from Article space in how you might deploy the template, since you cannot. This last makes any acceptance pointless in my view. 🇺🇦  Fiddle Timtrent  Faddle Talk to me 🇺🇦 06:40, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Can you explain how the title is deceptive? It is simply a template with the same title as the California Historical Landmarks in Santa Clara County. The template would be used as a listing of the landmarks for navigational purposes, which is common as with other templates. The wallled garden has nothing to do with the template. The walled garden that others were talking is for creating too many articles on the same subject, e.g. Carmel-by-the-Sea. The articles for Santa Clara County were already created for landmarks and the template just makes it easy to get to them from an article page. I am temporarily blocked for not disclosing paid contributions. Once the block is removed, I, or anyone can can place the template on an aritlce so they can navigate between landmarks, just as it is done now with the Template:California Historical Landmarks in Calaveras County, California. Greg Henderson (talk) 15:13, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Read the titles in your template and read the titles of the articles. An example is . I see that as deceptive.
 * As for undisclosed paid editing, please be aware that this is a practice I despise.
 * Do I now need to reply to you on different pages, in duplicate? I do not find that agreeable. I will do so, but this is the final time.
 * [Duplicated reply from the same message on my user talk page. Please post HERE and ping me. I no longer wish to talk to you in duplicate.] 🇺🇦 Fiddle Timtrent  Faddle Talk to me 🇺🇦 15:41, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * There is more to this thread, now only on my own talk page. I am not persuaded by the arguments given there. 🇺🇦 Fiddle Timtrent  Faddle Talk to me 🇺🇦 16:16, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started
Hello, Greghenderson2006. Thank you for your work on Roberto-Suñol Adobe. User:Tails Wx, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with. Please remember to sign your reply with ~. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

Tails  Wx  01:40, 19 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your feedback! It was a pleasure working on it. If you have any suggestions or ideas for improvement, feel free to share. Greg Henderson (talk) 01:57, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Roberto-Suñol Adobe has been accepted
 Roberto-Suñol Adobe, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on its talk page. Most new articles start out as Stub-Class or Start-Class and then attain higher grades as they develop over time. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

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Thanks again, and happy editing! Bkissin (talk) 22:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I've made a couple improvements. The article could be improved by adding more information about the fact that the structure and land were built and developed when this region of present-day California was not part of the United States.
 * I added a mention of the Indigenous tribal and band info on the person who built the structure, but also worthy of inclusion, along with sources, is this was Mexico when this historical structure was built. And should be framed with regards to this, as it is part of the historical record, and should be included in addition to whatever USA California info is already in the article. Netherzone (talk) 22:27, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your efforts in making improvements to the article. I've learned some valuable insights from your feedback and want to prove my capability in writing WP:N articles. Greg Henderson (talk) 02:04, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

== Your submission at Articles for creation: Template:California Historical Landmarks in Santa Clara County (September 18) ==  Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by OlifanofmrTennant was:

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.


 * If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Template:California Historical Landmarks in Santa Clara County and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
 * If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
 * If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:Template:California_Historical_Landmarks_in_Santa_Clara_County Articles for creation help desk], on the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:OlifanofmrTennant&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:Template:California_Historical_Landmarks_in_Santa_Clara_County reviewer's talk page] or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

OLIfanofmrtennant 17:27, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * A cleanup has been made. The template points to undisputed landmarks like the Winchester Mystery House and the HP Garage. These are valid landmarks and the templates points to them. Greg Henderson (talk) 17:35, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @OlifanofmrTennant Thank you for agreeing with me, though agreement is not necessary. Above, Greg Henderson suggests that a cleanup has been made. In my opinion the cleanup has missed one, and one which has been pointed out to him previously.
 * Greg, if your words are to cut any ice at all, you need to do the work, the more so because you are not, to my knowledge, blocked from Draft space. I read "a cleanup has been made" as your having made it, but no, you left it to . This is another example of your not taking editing here seriously. 🇺🇦 Fiddle Timtrent  Faddle Talk to me 🇺🇦 07:14, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Bebee and president James Monroe connection
I can't access some of the paywall sources, but could you provide the direct quotation supporting the claim that Lucy Monroe named in those Bebee articles are direct descendent of Monroe? I would like to see something that shows connection between the 5th president of the United States and Bebee in a reliable source that is not a Bebee family member authored material or a Bebee family member submitted obituary. In Theophilus Beebe, it reads: He was the son of Theophilus D. Beebe (1753–1837) and Lucy Monroe (1755–1830), who was a direct descendant of President James Monroe

Something interesting. This source, while not related to this says "Lucy Monroe (1906-1987) was a direct descendant of James Monroe" https://archive.org/details/vic-17815-a-star-spangled-banner/Vic+17815A+Star+Spangled+Banner.flac Presumably, this is about this Lucy Monroe; but what about presidential connection for Lucy Monroe 1755-1830? would you be able to help with fact checking? Graywalls (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Lucy Monroe paywall issue is resolved here: The Evening Herald. Other source connections are Monograph of the descent of the family of Beebe. Put what we really need is real proof. Both FamilySearch.org and Ancestry.com have little information about Lucy Monroe (1755-1939). Greg Henderson (talk) 16:41, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Great, so The Evening Post you linked confirms Lucy Monroe the Soprano singer (likely the b.1906 d.1987). Now, where's the thing DIRECTLY verifying Lucy Monroe (b 1755) related to Theophilus Beebe is James Monroe's descendent? A source in 1937 couldn't be talking about someone who died in 1830 appearing at a singing session, so this definitely isn't about Beebe's mother. Graywalls (talk) 16:58, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Other than obituaries, the other source for Theophilus Beebe's mother is here: on page 44, Lucy Munroe [Monroe], a realative of President Munroe [Monroe]. Greg Henderson (talk) 17:42, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Greg, have you actually read what that source says? It says she was a "relative of President Monroe" (my emphasis). You are citing it to justify your saying in a Wikipedia article that she was "a direct descendant of President James Monroe" (my emphasis). JBW (talk) 20:25, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, the obituary and the article use different words to express the relationship to President Monroe. The obituary says direct descendant. I sourced both citations but chose direct descent. Greg Henderson (talk) 21:00, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Just seeing this now. Will look into what I might be able to find. But it does seem like there's more than one Lucy Monroe, the same way there was more than one in Greg's Lewis Josselyn article (one who died in either 1963 or 1964, and another that died in 1961.) As to whether or not she was a relative, a descendent or direct descendent of Pres. James Monroe, I haven't yet looked into that, but will try to get to it. (Work is really busy for me at the moment, please forgive me if I don't respond immediately.) Netherzone (talk) 20:44, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I am waiting for more input on RSN on use of such obituaries but the Brooklyn Daily one recently offered up by Henderson satisfies on the surface that James DM Beebe is decedent of James Monroe. The monograph source was written by someone in Bebee family. Given the general boastful nature and flimsy sourcing, I favor just omitting president reference. Graywalls (talk) 00:26, 20 September 2023 (UTC)