User talk:Griswaldo

Discussion
WP articles should have a "neutral point of view", meaning in part that statements, even from verified sources, should not be painted as if they are the only point of view. Even if other points of view are not presented, and/or do not have verified sources, the article should still be written as if the information presented is only from one point of view and not necessarily the only one. While you clearly hold this source very dear, it is not the only information or opinion on the subject, and certainly not the/an ultimate authority. Presenting Judith Martin's point of view is not more or less valid than using the reference you are promoting.

Relevance and relative authority of sources is important as well as the act of actually citing sources. Judith Martin is a current etiquette authority with 30+ years as the doyenne of etiquette in America's capital city, so I would tend to consider her opinion important, or at least valid. Njsustain (talk) 23:06, 29 January 2010 (UTC)


 * It has to do with the purpose of the article. While some people may be interested in the origin of the white dress, many (probably more, IMO) are interested in its current meaning. That's why the etiquette authority is needed here. Njsustain (talk) 23:21, 29 January 2010 (UTC)


 * While WP is not a news source, that does not exclude non-historical sources, as long as they are verifiable and well regarded. Miss Manners herself is VERY concerned with the history of etiquette, is a staunch traditionalist, but recognizes change in culture, and, very rarely, and rightly, attempts to influence culture. None of these things exclude her from being a verifiable and reliable source of information for WP topics.Njsustain (talk) 23:38, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Mediation Case
A request for formal mediation of the dispute concerning Genesis Creation Myth has been filed with the Mediation Committee (MedCom). You have been named as a party in this request. Please review the request at Requests for mediation/Genesis Creation Myth and then indicate in the "Party agreement" section whether you would agree to participate in the mediation or not.

Mediation is a process where a group of editors in disagreement over matters of article content are guided through discussing the issues of the dispute (and towards developing a resolution) by an uninvolved editor experienced with handling disputes (the mediator). The process is voluntary and is designed for parties who disagree in good faith and who share a common desire to resolve their differences. Further information on the MedCom is at Mediation Committee; the policy the Committee will work by whilst handling your dispute is at Mediation Committee/Policy; further information on Wikipedia's policy on resolving disagreements is at Resolving disputes.

If you would be willing to participate in the mediation of this dispute but wish for its scope to be adjusted then you may propose on the case talk page amendments or additions to the list of issues to be mediated. Any queries or concerns that you have may be directed to an active mediator of the Committee or by e-mailing the MedCom's private mailing list (click here for details).

Please indicate on the case page your agreement to participate in the mediation within seven days of the request's submission.

Thank you, Weaponbb7 (talk)
 * I just saw your edit, what you said needed saying but watch those type of statements they can some back on you real quick...Weaponbb7 (talk) 21:39, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It is what it is and calling it that way shouldn't come back to bite anyone. No worries.  I just call it how I see it.Griswaldo (talk) 21:42, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Reply
I am hoping for the best but i am extremely skeptical this will work, but i have been surprised before. The consensus on the talkpage has happened before, and to no avail I am more skeptical that we get anything done on the talk page with out help from a one of the Committees. Weaponbb7 (talk) 21:55, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Well I think there are people whose patience has yet to be exhausted and I think it's worth a try is all I'm saying.Griswaldo (talk) 22:41, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Table header
I must be having an off-day. Thank you for letting me know ... again. :) -- Black Falcon (talk) 22:00, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Mistaken deletion
sorry 'bout that. the funny thing is, is that I saw it in the history of the page, but couldn't figure out where it was when looking at the talk page. i was still looking for it when you put it back. my apologies :) SAE (talk) 16:39, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well I realized it was a mistake so no worries.Griswaldo (talk) 16:40, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Your last comment on Talk:Genesis creation narrative is exactly what I point to in mine, but so much more concise. Next time I should just wait for you to reply, and put my "ditto" behind it :) SAE (talk) 15:59, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you!
Thank you for being an outstanding Wikipedian. Thank you for your level-head, common sense, respect for everyone, including those with whom you disagree. Most of all, thank you for your contribution of outstanding sources, and your patience and generosity in giving debating partners time to get their positions organized and to make their cases. Thanks for defending the positions of opponents when they are not around to defend those themselves. Your keen mind, good humour, skilled diplomacy and many other qualities not only set an example, they are quite simply enjoyable to encounter, motivating others to work as hard as you do towards producing quality free content. My very best wishes to you. Alastair Haines (talk) 04:18, 2 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your gracious reply. Like you, I wish Genesis creation narrative could be discussed in a literary way, rather than appropriated to pursue the culture wars you refer to. I have started a small contribution to attempting to defuse that bad habit at Wiki, by making a start on an article for a very famous book, The Myth of God Incarnate. I don't agree with the conclusion of this book, nor various parts of its evidence and reasoning; however, it is very well argued and sourced. I hope it serves as an example that academic writers from Christian backgrounds do not all "toe the party line".
 * Griswaldo, I think talk pages at Wikipedia are a little like tertiary level seminars or tutorials. Not only are many of us involved in subject matter beyond our fields of specialization, but many of us are new to rigorous study of the experts. We can be slow to appreciate just how tricky academics can find (or make) issues that seem so straightforward to casual inspection.
 * I suppose Wikipedia, as a people's encyclopedia will never quite be totally satisfactory to the more academic mind, yet I trust it will always be somewhat more sophisticated than mere over-simplification of popular culture. Some frustration for all, but substantial gain for all as well.
 * I'll conclude by mentioning that I actually sympathise with the secularists at Wikipedia: this is no place for religious tract–type points of view. However, I just wish they realised that not everything published by confessing religious writers is in the tract genre. I think the thing we probably need to help one another see as editors is that article content is not adequate if all it does is provide a poll of current academic conclusions: 65% for, 30% against, 5% undecided. Article content is about giving readers a picture of the sub-issues, the evidence and the arguments the reliable sources currently discuss, and how those arose historically.
 * Some articles have good Etymology sections, others have trivia in those sections. If only we could build a habit at Wikipedia of starting not just with the historical development of word meanings, but with literature reviews. Those need not be perfect, but there are tons of great sources of literature reviews on various topics that can be followed in articles.
 * Anyway, I'll not blather on any longer. It's just an idea (probably too ambitious for GCN) that might bypass a lot of time consuming talk page tension, if we got a habit of starting articles with literature reviews. Very best to you again Alastair Haines (talk) 05:06, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Structure for Genesis creation article
Thanks Griswaldo. It probably raises copyright problems to copy the text for sharing it with other editors. It should be sufficient to use the sources to draft an outline and share it here. But realistically speaking, it seems unlikely that there's much interest there for repairing what has become an almost insensible article. The edit warring has got to stop-and so should all those editing that article without a solid reference in hand first, backing up their claims. At the very least those two problems need to improve before there's any chance of any real work getting done there. Professor marginalia (talk) 16:19, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I made the change to Judaism
Maybe that change will stand. It's not a bad sort of wording. I don't recall exactly that wording being suggested before. Bus stop (talk) 16:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It was too good to last. Oh well, good try. Bus stop (talk) 11:58, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I meant that you could copy the discussion wherever you wanted. Thanks for moving it. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:17, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Supernatural accounts of creation

 * Ed please discuss on talk ... introducing supernatural here is not informative and implies that there are ancient creation stories of another sort as well, which there aren't

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that at all. Good catch!

I'll try again (on talk). --Uncle Ed (talk) 17:01, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Christ Myth Theory FAQ Proposal
Hey Griswaldo, when you get a chance, can you read the new FAQ proposal section and let us know what your thoughts on the matter? Thanks. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 17:32, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Monogamy in Ancient Egypt
Your edition in Monogamy article was quite arbitrary and contrary to the rules of Wikipedia to show the topics from different points of view. This section depicts what kind of monogamy was found in ancient Egypt. Anyway thank you for your contribution. I will put monogamy in Ancient Egypt more clearly. --Quodvultdeus (talk) 13:19, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

mate and spouse
Please keep Wikipedia rules, you are deleting valid information with reference to published sources, and pushing your own vision without any literature behind you.--Quodvultdeus (talk) 14:26, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

re monogamy
I am pretty happy with current edition as the dictionary first speaks about human persons (1-2) and then about animals and zoology(3) - and that's how you have put it. Technical notice: 1. the link you gave does not work, it says:"The Oxford English Dictionary Online is a subscription service". and 2. why have you removed existing text of Britannica Dictionary? You behave as if the article was your own rancho. No one has right to be a censor in Wikipedia--Quodvultdeus (talk) 13:13, 23 June 2010 (UTC) Anyway the access to the Dictionary online is limited to those who are in university networks. Many users of Wikipedia are not.--Quodvultdeus (talk) 15:08, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Polygamy
Rather that get into an edit war, I'll take this off the page.

Scientology is used in my case as a point of discussion. You are apparently LDS. In my dealings writing about the Latter-day Saints, I have seen over and over again that members of the church demand officially published LDS sources for references about the religion. That should not be the case. All viewpoints should be considered - even that of an ex-mormon who actually lived it, published a book about it, and was published in a reputable publication regarding her writings.

What would a reputable article about Scientology be without accounts of the dissidents? From : "This account comes from executives who for decades were key figures in Scientology's powerful inner circle. Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder, the highest-ranking executives to leave the church, are speaking out for the first time...Two other former executives who defected also agreed to interviews with the St. Petersburg Times: De Vocht, who for years oversaw the church's spiritual headquarters in Clearwater, and Amy Scobee, who helped create Scientology's celebrity network, which caters to the likes of John Travolta and Tom Cruise." Reputable publication. Scientology denies it. But the paper runs the story, because there is truth to what the defectors say.

Just because someone has left a lifestyle, a religion, a way of life and wants to tell about their experiences in that life does not discredit them. I have provided a published reputable reference. The fact that Laake was a "dissident" or an "ex-mormon" does not automatically discredit her experiences and accounts.

I could use my experiences as a Latter-day Saint about this and verify this account. I have not done so. To do that would be a violation of WP:OR. In the meantime, accept that there are teachings in the religion that are, to put in bluntly, embarrassing and strange to outsiders.

I have attempted to be WP:CIVIL about this. I hope I have succeeded. I realize this is a sore spot to faithful LDS, seeing the intimate parts of their religion discussed and dissected. You are trying to present a good face to the world. I applaud the religion for the good it has done. But to simply dismiss something out of hand because the person referenced is a former member, even a "dissident," is wrong. This is Wikipedia, not LDS.org. All viewpoints are welcome here.

Regards, --Manway (talk) 18:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC)


 * There is nothing WP:CIVIL about starting a discussion with a gross misconception about my personal affiliations which insinuates that I would have some kind of bias in this discussion. Of course you know maybe I was just religiously confused until you came along.  Maybe I'm not an ex-Episcopalian agnostic.  Maybe I'm LDS!Griswaldo (talk) 18:40, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

User conduct
It used to be that WP:RfCU was used, but lately WP:ANI and WP:AN have been more popular. Laying out the evidence in the form of diffs and asking for administrative attention sometimes works. If that fails, arbitration is the last resort. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:35, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

July 2010
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we must insist that you assume good faith while interacting with other editors, which you did not on Talk:Genesis creation narrative. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Jess talk cs 04:28, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You and your pals are being disruptive -- just like some of your "opponents" were being not that long ago. I'll not refrain from pointing this out just because you know how to dig up patronizing templates to place on my talk page.  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 04:31, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

you see this?
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Til Eulenspiegel/Religious narratives as sacred canon? thought you might be interested... Weaponbb7 (talk) 17:11, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Haha you amuse me, fair answer to difficult situation. Weaponbb7 (talk) 01:38, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Have you seen this?
Another one who doesn't like myth [ - no discussion on talk page. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] (talk) 20:14, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Please stop. If you continue to move pages to bad titles contrary to naming conventions or consensus, as you did to Flood legends, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Arlen22 (talk) 12:39, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Descriptive summary
A summary is defined as: 'a brief statement that presents the main points in a concise form'. The summary section of the Genesis article contains most (if not all) of the original text with explanations and expansions analysing what has been written. (Analysis: 'an investigation of the component parts of a whole and their relations in making up the whole'). See Talk:Book of Genesis for a brief summary. (Definitions from http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kendroche (talk • contribs) 21:53, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The Genesis page's 'Summary' section needs reviewing. While the Patriarchal section is much as I had imagined it to be (a little streamlined), some have gone a little too far on the Primeval section. I was hoping you know a way to revert this without destroying the 'good' edits that people have made in the rest of the article (I am unsure whether a revert would restore just that section or the whole article). Thank You. Where is WikiResearch? (talk) 09:56, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

RFC note
I'm going to open the Historicity of Jesus RFC in a day or two, and have drafted one viewpoint on what should happen before we open this up to the larger community. It's available for view at User:AKMask/JesusRFC. I'd like you to collaborate on it to fill out the opposing side if you would be so kind, that way we can determine the larger consensus. -- ۩ M ask  22:46, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

wondering
Are you going to AFD that article? Do we want wikipedia to review restaurants of no particular note, I was going to AFD it more than once already but was considering the rationale. Article is also in the queue to receive DYK wiki front page publicity. Off2riorob (talk) 14:49, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * That's ridiculous. Who put the article in the DYK cue?Griswaldo (talk) 15:01, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Daryl Restaurant
Dear Sir, Thank you very much for informing me of the debates. As you said, I don't feel that I ought to participate any more at this point as I have been bullied and threatened by administrators and bureaucrats. However, I'm glad that the incident at least brought my initial concern to people's attention. I may not be as familiar with WP standard practices as some people, and may not be able to quote the "rules" and "standards" of WP like a corporate lawyer, but I can spot a puff piece when I see one, bullying when it occurs, and inappropriate use of authority when it occurs. Thanks very much for your input. Njsustain (talk) 15:48, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Griswaldo. Thank you so much for informing me of this situation. I have for months been upset when thinking Cirt, a person who has been given authority on WP, and has clearly been given a lot of leeway (in article creation, content, and improper use of administrative authority) due to his "prolific" writing, was permitted to put up such an obvious puff piece to promote a business, so vehemently defended reasons to include the article, and then suddenly didn't care anymore about the article's inclusion once the restaurant closed... and it seemed, totally got away with it. It was so obviously just WRONG what was going on that I have mostly given up editing on WP... I really don't do much besides edit a couple of TV episode summary articles. This level of what can only be described as corruption in WP has made me a big opponent of it this past year. It seems the "white wall of silence" still exists as many seem to still be defending whatever he has been doing, because he is an admin and for no other logical reason I can see. Now, a person who hates Rick Santorum as much as that can't be all bad, but really, when such blatant abuse of authority is permitted to continue with no consequence, it really shows how poorly an organization is managed and where its basic values lie, unfortunately. Has Jimbo had nothing to say on this? I'm not sure where to voice my opinion on the matter but it seems well described: for just bringing up that something looked like puff/COI, my name was dragged through the mud by an admin who did not follow the rules of WP when it came to his article... the admins all defended their own, completely irrationally... and when the business interest went away, so did all of Cirt's arguments about why the article should be kept. Is WP to become nothing more than a platform to promote businesses for those who have the power to do so? That isn't what this community was created for, and not one I would want to be a part of. Thank you for your efforts in trying to reveal the corruption. Sincerely, Njsustain (talk) 19:02, 7 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm very sorry to hear that this episode drove you from Wikipedia. I'm not sure that "corruption" is the right word, but I do believe that Wikipedia has a problem with social capital often trumping pure common sense and the impartial application of basic rules.  Do you mind if I link to your statement here in the Arbitration that is most probably coming out of this RFC?  Let me know.Griswaldo (talk) 19:27, 7 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi. I don't mind, but as you may have already noticed I decided to make a comment there already, and did not pull punches. I am really tired of the "white wall of silence" and am not interested in being a lawyer here at WP just to make some simple, as you say, common sense, edits. It seems you do need to be a master of the rules here and to go around politicking in order to have any real editing rights. If I wanted to be a lawyer I would have gone to law school instead of engineering. Njsustain (talk) 19:31, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Griswaldo, I see that earlier today I received somewhat of a validation for the compltely sensible actions I took regarding the Daryl article over a year ago. However, I don't feel the slightest bit better about justice and fairness in WP. My God, imagine the number of man-hours that have been wasted this past year... I realize the issue was not just with Daryl, but the unfairness that went on then should have been stopped in its tracks at the time, not blindly backed up by other admins and dragged out for months and months, proceeding after proceeding. It must be in the tens of thousands of hours which have been wasted at least, time which should have gone towards editing articles. This desysop of a rogue administrator was not an indication that WP works. This whole convoluted process is an indication that it is still a broken system. There were no winners here.

Regards, Njsustain (talk) 00:21, 11 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I see there is at least discussion going on about the issues at the RfA talk page, but there doesn't seem to be any consensus that will result in real change that I can see. But I don't happen to speak Latin so I'm not entirely sure what is being discussed. Njsustain (talk) 09:08, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Daryl Wine Bar and Restaurant
Hi Griswaldo

I personally think that the article on Daryl Wine Bar and Restaurant should be kept based on any reasonable interpretation of the guidelines, or probably even any narrower guidelines that has even a snowball's chance of reaching consensus. However, regardless of what could or should be the guidelines, in a world where this outcome was reached, I just don't see any point of claiming that something with a full-length review in the NYT (the claim that it's "about" the chef, not the restaurant, is not supported by the review, even if the reason for the review is the chef--the article first notes the decor and service, then goes on to describe specific menu items; contrast this to a description of the chef's other ventures, schooling, philosophy, which are not mentioned) is too local for the plain text of the GNG to be applicable.

Bongo  matic  05:57, 27 July 2010 (UTC) Should you wish to reply, please do so here. I will watch this page for a few days, so no talkback or other comment on my talk page is required.


 * Bongo regarding the chef you're mistaken on two very important fronts. 1) I said it "focuses on" the chef.  I did not say it is "about" the chef.  These words alter the meaning quite a bit.  It is about the restaurant but it focuses on its chef. 2) The first lines of the review are absolutely focused on the chef.  The decor discussion you mention comes after these lines:


 * DAVID DRAKE, both the brains and the brawn behind the impeccable restaurant bearing his name in Rahway, has done it again with Daryl Wine Bar and Restaurant in downtown New Brunswick, which opened in October. We should reward him and his three partners — one of whom, Daryl Sorrentini, lends her first name to this venture — with our business, but we will be rewarded as well: We will eat, drink and most likely be merry, because the food is so delicious and the experience so joyful.


 * This introduction does say something about the chef's notability, and I am happy to admit this. I fully support the suggestion to expand the entry on the chef and to put a small bit of information about Daryl into that entry.  Regarding your own failed AfD of a local event I feel for you, I clearly do.  However I fail to understand how you put that up for AfD and are not voting delete here.  Another odd contradiction in my mind.  Besides this I think in your arguments you're making misleading points like the fact that there are 9 million people in NJ.  I can create an award that only five people know about and put NJ in the name of it.  Do I then claim that clearly its well known because NJ has 9 million people in it?   That's why I looked at the readership of the magazine and extrapolated from there.  But I don't appreciate the fact that I had to do this.  It's a disingenuous argument ... I'm not saying you're being disingenuous as you may have thought the argument was a good one sincerely, but the argument itself is.Griswaldo (talk) 11:38, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

WP:AGF
I don't understand why you are continuously assuming bad faith on me. I would never dare do something like that on you, and having disagreements is no reason to go close attack other editors personally by implying they are "purposely obfuscating" stuff. Please reconsider your statements. I am trying to have a productive discussion. -- Cycl o pia talk  10:18, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

On pouncing
(If you'd rather just let the entire thing die, I'm happy to let you; that seems to be your sentiment, given the comment you removed from Jimbo's page, but I felt your feelings on the matter warranted direct addressing.)

I don't feel like I "pounced". I saw a massive amount of assumption of bad faith of Cirt's actions by Njsustain, and remarked as such. Nowhere did I fail to act responsibly, because nowhere did I act at all; I voiced my opinion, that's all.

Obviously, some people feel like I shouldn't have voiced my opinion by using the word "dick", and I'm willing to accept that, but it doesn't change my opinion of the actions I was talking about, and I still think I was correct in my assessment: saying someone has a conflict of interest just because they've written an article? Sorry, but yeah, that's a bit of a dick move. EVula // talk // &#9775;  // 01:28, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * EVula, Cirt has clearly written a puff piece here, regardless of whether or not in the end the restaurant is deemed notable enough for inclusion. As far as I can tell Njsustain met with dogged resistance from Cirt as soon as he brought out the obvious at the entry. Then Cirt ran off to AN/I where low an behold everyone focussed on the frustrated actions of Njustain and no one really bothered to look into what had made him act however it was he was acting.  The COI insinuation was over the top and uncalled for but really why on earth was this puff piece written?  It is wholly understandable that Njsustain wondered this.  Everyone assumes good faith of certain people (admins, etc.) and are quick to assume something else of those who question this.  That's not how the authority figures around here should act.  That's just my opinion.  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 01:34, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm not Cirt, so I can't really speculate as to why he wrote the article, but honestly... why do any of us do what we do? The basic assumption (for me) is just for fun. I enjoy the edits I make, which is why I make them. Perhaps Cirt just really likes writing articles; a lot of editors do, but nobody declares them as having a conflict of interest with their subjects. I don't have a problem with speculating someone's actions, but that's not quite what happened here.


 * Now, could the article have been toned down some? Sure. Is it a puff piece? Eh, I'm hesitant to call it that, since I tend to think of puff pieces as severely lacking any actual sources; the article has plenty of sources, albeit mostly positive (which Jimbo commented was just how it was). I haven't seen anything from Njsustain that showed an actual effort to improve the article; he remarks on the talk page that there are negative reviews, but doesn't bother linking to any, instead opting to just immediately assume bad faith on Cirt's part. When asked to provide sources, he instead once again assumes that the article was written only to be spam. (as an aside, one of the reasons that claim stings so much for me is that I had the same claim levied against me early on in my wiki-career when I attempted to improve a sub-par article for a book that I enjoyed) . He even assumed bad faith on Cirt's part for actions that he had no part in. He has showed a complete double-standard, saying that Cirt engaged in ad hominem attacks on him by labeling his edits as disruptive (which, as an aside, I can't find; that doesn't mean he didn't, that means that my quick search didn't turn up anything), despite the fact that he found it perfectly reasonable to insinuate that Cirt had a conflict of interest numerous times.


 * So that's how I arrived at my opinion. Could I have focused more on the reasons behind Njsustain's behavior? Yes, I could have, but I didn't. I don't consider that a failing on my part; it's just how I interpreted things. My interpretation is no less valid than your frustration that more attention wasn't given to the reasons behind Njsustain's behavior; they are merely different points of view for the same situation. EVula // talk // &#9775;  // 02:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Regarding puff pieces here is what our entry says - "Puff piece or fluff piece is an idiom for a journalistic form of puffery; an article or story of exaggerating praise that often ignores or downplays opposing viewpoints or evidence to the contrary." They are one-sided but not false or invented.Griswaldo (talk) 03:54, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Regarding the interaction between Cirt and Njsustain I do not see the same narrative you have presented. Njsustain tagged the entry with a NPOV tag and called it a "puff piece" in the edit summary, which again it clearly is (but we don't have to argue about that).  He also tagged it for COI, and once again I agree that the COI insinuations were not helpful at all and should not have been made like that.  Cirt removed both tags and immediately demanded WP:RS sources.  Is it really prudent for Cirt to remove the NPOV tag as the article creator and as someone who has been accused, perhaps falsely, of a COI? Would you advise other editors who are that intimately involved with the article to act in this way?  Did you notice this when you reviewed the situation?  Njsustain responded by actually taking it to the talk page.  In his response he outlined the issues as he saw them: 1) Appears to be written for the purpose of promoting the restaurant, 2) Daryl is a new restaurant that does not warrant a Wikipedia article, 3) "a large number of references does not necessarily make an article encyclopedic nor neutral", 4) the "writers" have chosen only positive reviews for the article when, he claims, there are negative reviews floating around the net as well.  Are these all points that require "reliable sources" to be justifiably made?  Perhaps the last one, but certainly not the first three.  Demanding reliable sources is just a clever way to use the rhetoric of Wikipedia policy in order to obfuscate and it worked.  Admins authoritatively parroted Cirst asking for sources and pointing out that Njsustain hadn't supplied any as if no other issues were raised.  That's a real problem.  Seeing this, implies to me that those who bought Cirt's routine never gave Njsustain's position even a milliseconds chance.  Sure he handled himself very poorly, but someone else wrote a puff piece and managed to get you all to bully the person who caught him doing it.  That's what frustrates me here.Griswaldo (talk) 03:54, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Dear Mr./Ms. Griswaldo, I very much appreciate the time you are taking to outline the situation. While I hope my paragraph below helps to show my point of view, I think that the above paragraph ("Regarding the interaction...") really perfectly describes what happened. May I please ask if you could add it to the ANI noticeboard (or would permit me to do so by quoting the entire paragraph there), not necessarily because it seems to be, overall, in my favor (even with the conclusions that I behaved "very poorly", etc., which for the record, I don't agree with), but because I think it is a very accurate representation of how the situation played out. It also brings up for the first time by someone other than me that Cirt didn't give my position a millisecond's chance, having removed the tags in less than an hour, with no intervening comments by anyone (I assume he simply removed them when he first saw them, i.e. in a millisecond, hyperbolically, as you said). Thank you very much for your consideration. And, also, I really appreciate and recognize that you are doing this for the sake of improving how WP runs, and not simply as a humanitarian gesture towards yours truly, which would be silly for anyone to do, though if were doing so, that would indeed be greatly appreciated.Njsustain (talk) 21:22, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * (I'm male) Feel free to quote me on this if you wish as long as its not egregiously out of context. Regards.Griswaldo (talk) 21:28, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. It seems to have blown over (the initial situation, if not the issue of whether this or similar articles should be on WP) so I'm happy to let it do so. Good fortune to you, sir. Njsustain (talk) 17:11, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Forgive me ladies and gentlemen for butting in, but if may point out what I see as the original source of the "wikietiquette" problem here, I had no idea that suggesting that there may be COI was the WP equivalent of calling out "Judas!" or "child molester!" Many people have agreed that the article smelled like there may have been COI, and was written as (whether or not it was) a puff piece/advertisement. I simply wanted to call it to attention, and Cirt attempted to quash the debate, which, as you know from recent heated discussions on several venues, many people believe there is indeed one to be had. He did, after all, remove the POV tag as well as the "blasphemous" COI tag. I suspected due to the way something was written (and many others saw what was obvious to me) that it appeared to be, at least by everyday, non-WP standards, a "conflict of interest," so, silly me, used the COI tag. My PhD is not in Wikipedia rules, so please forgive me if it was an abomination to have done so. But for Cirt to try to hide my suggestion to the point of accusing me of being "disruptive" was clearly utter assumption of bad faith. Just like Cirt's motivation for writing the article may be irrelevent to whether it should ultimately be kept, isn't it irrelevent whether I brought up additional sources to whether the article smelled like puffery? Lots of people have since said that the article seems like a puff piece, but not a single person said to any of them, "Oh, yeah? Show me your sources [insert WP rules ad nauseum here]." As a, let's say, casual user/editor, do you really think it was appropriate to be labeled "disruptive" (and a "dick" for that matter) to ask that the matter be looked at by anyone interested? Isn't that the point of the tags? If not, obviously something has been going way over my head for the last several years, and I really don't think I'm that dense. I think a more rational explanation is that, as has been suggested by others, that people are parroting a well known administrator's accusations toward an unknown run-of-the-mill editor, and the administrative system, in this case, did not work (at least, initially) towards bringing the truth to light and to improving WP. Did I learn something? Yes. Was I utterly innocent? I would say I was innocent of malice, and guilty of naivety about the idiosyncratic meaning of some WP tags and procedures. That admins can't ultimately give me a break after my suspicions were validated (by the debates, if not by whether their outcomes ultimately agree with my initial suspicions) only continues to confirm my belief of a "white wall of silence" which will in the end not be positive for WP's mission, IMHO. Njsustain (talk) 20:09, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Noloop
n posting to different noticeboards, Noloop has attracted more attention. Also, there are many people involved in the discussion at Jesus. Must a topic ban be decided at AN/I or can it be decided at the RS or Fringe noticeboard? If we have to take this back to AN/I, wel, i just raised it there, it is a matter of getting the people who participated in these recent discussions to know about it and show up. Slrubenstein  |  Talk 15:20, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

AN/I jumble
Thanks. I re-read the thread after I shifted it and was like "huh? how did that happen :). Thought I was going mad! --Errant Tmorton166(Talk) 15:37, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Noloop
Many of the people who "vote" at AN/I are not administrators. I have no problem of course with your refactoring my proposal. But my advice is, tomorrow, do not just look at the votes but see how many supports and opposes are from actual administrators. If the admins lean heavily in one direction, that matters. Also, it is not an up-down vote. People need to give reasons, and then an admin needs to try to see if a consensus can be formed (even around an alternative proposal). If after polling people can then disucss and reach a proposal, whatever that is, it is a step in the right direction. Slrubenstein  |  Talk 16:10, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Rice King
While this is not a huge chain, it is faily big. So I removed your prod. Bearian (talk) 21:37, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Todai (restaurant)
Can you please submit this as a normal AfD request and not a Speedy deletion request? I think it should go through some due process. Kingturtle (talk) 18:36, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Daryl Wine Bar and Restaurant
I'd like your opinion about by clean-up of this article. I think it might influence the  AfD. If the choice were between keeping the original article or deleting it, I'd have said delete. DGG ( talk ) 04:34, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


 * DGG, thanks for bringing a fresher perspective to the current discussion, and thanks for your question on my talk page. You asked me what my thoughts were on "cleanup".  I have a hard time putting aside the general notability issue in order to consider cleaning up the entry because if I did so I'd want to delete most, if not all, of what's currently in it, even after your own commendable cleanup effort.  Besides the technicalities of establishing notability through reliable sources I think any Wikipedia entry should clearly communicate its notability to our audience, and I don't know how the Daryl entry does that.  When I read the entry I wonder (still), why is it notable?  This seems like a very average run of the mill restaurant of its kind.  What impact has it had on American culture, or even regional culture?  What impact has it had on the restaurant industry, on non-industry culinary culture? Is the building notable?  Is it considered a regional institution?  Is it notable because of a novelty (first restaurant to do X)?  Is it notable because of coverage in popular culture (appearing in films, on TV shows, in novels, etc.) Is it notable because the head chef or owner is notable?  And the list of possible questions continue, but I've yet to find one (personally) that can be answered by the Daryl entry.   The sentence, "[i]t was one of the first wine bars to open in New Jersey," is of the right sort, but one of the first, in NJ doesn't really cut it if you ask me.  Really how many 3 year old restaurants have been around long enough to make an impact on anything?  Very, very few.  It is amusing to ponder, as Njsustain recently mentioned, what people would think of this AfD should Daryl close in the near future.  I have no idea how their business is actually going but in general, with such restaurants, it is always a distinct possibility.  That in and of itself should set off alarm bells I'd think.


 * Now in regards to promotional content, should consensus be that the restaurant is notable enough, I firmly believe that the entire "reception" section should be deleted, or be whittled down to a sentence or two. Writing content based on local or regional restaurant reviews is a very dubious business for an encyclopedia in my opinion.  These reviews are rarely (if ever) critical, and indeed are an institutionalized part of the restaurant PR game.  They do not actually give us reliable information on how a restaurant was "received".  They are not comparable to book reviews or film reviews.  In my opinion, if we use these types of sources we're just furthering the promotion that those sources were doing in the first place.  That's exactly what I think we should not do, and I believe you agree with me in principle here even if you see the situation differently.  The side bar should also be whittled down drastically.  I do not think that including various "ratings" or "rankings" provides us with encyclopedic information either ("dress code"?).  Those tidbits, along with the reviews, are pieces of information that aid someone's restaurant decision, but I don't consider that encyclopedic.  I consider that marketing.  I'm not sure how helpful my response has been.  What do you think about the points I brought up?  Thanks again for the note.Griswaldo (talk) 12:41, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


 * If I can make a more general comment. I feel, like one editor commented at AfD, that it's matter of, for want of a better word, philosophy - one of the fundamental splits that usually are put together in the aeternal inclusionist vs deletionist debate. To me "notable" = "someone else has noted it". In this sense, it carries no sense of "standing above the crowd". My personal view is that an encyclopedia should not organize information on things that stand above the crowd, but information about things that have been documented and noted independently and repeatedly. I view notability as a technical requirement, that should leave relatively little space to choice. Many people (including our host Griswaldo) strongly disagree, and I understand their reasoning, even if I personally do not share it. The problem is that this kind of tension in WP is at a fundamental level of personal views, which is difficult to reconcile. -- Cycl o pia talk  14:37, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


 * That's a fair observation but I think there is also a tension between different policies. People with different philosophies tend to lean more heavily on certain policies and not others, as well as certain sections or even sentences of policies and not others.  Where we tend to lean less heavily our perspectives may start to blur the boundaries between policies and guidelines in ways that make matters less clear.  I'm sure I do this all the time myself, but let me pick on Cyclopia's example above because it is fresh :).  With such an open stance to notability I wonder how a line is drawn between notable content and the type of content that fills up an indiscriminate list of things.  I also wonder where, in cases where notability is based on certain types of sources (like restaurant reviews), the line is drawn between verifiable content that proves notability and promotional materials.  These are issues that need to be hashed out I think, as our current notability guidelines leave too much room for warring philosophies.  I will admit, now that the AfD is closed, that I was really displeased about the AfD ever existing.  I was hoping that the conversation would take place at WP:CORP and in other venues where the relevant policies could be discussed as opposed to an AfD, which seems to be such a political process.  I think we can all see how much on-Wiki politics entered this discussion, and fueled both delete and keep voting at times.  That, in and of itself, is a huge detriment to improving the project and hashing out these real concerns and differences we all might have about what is appropriate content for an encyclopedia.Griswaldo (talk) 15:43, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree that our notability guideline is too vague. I guess it is somewhat intentional, to let it stay afloat above the inclusionism/deletionism thing, but it doesn't solve the debate: it just splits it endlessly in a miriad of AfD's, DRVs and similar venues. -- Cycl o pia talk  15:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree that it doesn't solve the dabate. I think the guidelines need reworking, and hopefully in a way that is agreeable enough to people like the both of us.Griswaldo (talk) 16:01, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Probably both of us will have to make some concession, in such a case, but I would prefer to have a precise guideline whose content I don't like in full than a vague thing that leaves space to every possible interpretation. There has been a recent RfC about re-evaluating notability, which ended in...nothing happening. But I didn't participate on it and I don't remember it well. It can contain some suggestions and indication of why the status quo is this one. -- Cycl o pia talk  16:28, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Well at least we agree on that point -- there should be a more precise guideline and that would most probably mean that it would not be exactly the way either of us would like it to be. But yes precision is important, and yes concessions will be necessary.  The RFC appears to have been close to 1.5 years ago now.  Maybe its time to try again.  My concerns are most specifically related to WP:CORP concerns but I guess general notability is also important.  I do think that the current guidelines and policies are better in some areas than others when it comes to notability.  Part of my argument, shared by some but not others, has been precisely that the context of restaurants makes it hard to apply some of the existing language with satisfaction.Griswaldo (talk) 16:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The problem is that individual guidelines like WP:CORP are usually understood to be in addition to the GNG, not alternative, so if a case can be made that X doesn't meet CORP, it can still meet GNG and be deemed notable. This is another point of known contention. That is why a debate on GNG is required anyway, because if CORP becomes stricter than GNG, its usefulness becomes dubious. -- Cycl o pia talk  16:57, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Question to both of you. Would it be considered canvassing to notify every participant of the AfD of the discussion at WP:CORP and ask for their input?Griswaldo (talk) 16:35, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't think so, since it would be a neutral audience (especially since it ended in NC) -- Cycl o pia talk  16:57, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Andrew c
There is a complaint at AN/I. I left a lengthy statement (this is a clarification I made to one portion of that statemnt). I am trying to put thinkgs in a bigger context. If you have time to read the discussion and my comment, and if you feel I am misrepresenting the issues, I hope you will correct me. Slrubenstein  |  Talk 22:55, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I've been trying to stay out of all this because of who the the other party is, but I'll read it over.Griswaldo (talk) 01:06, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the comments you made there. I am sorry I miscalculated about Noloop and encouraged you to push an issue that WP apparently just is not ready to confront. That said, i do think some important issues were aired, important things were said, and it was an important first step. Slrubenstein  |  Talk 10:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Rossnixon
See my comment at User talk:Rossnixon. Dougweller (talk) 04:54, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Judaism
Are you content with the "history" section of the Judaism article? Slrubenstein  |  Talk 10:40, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Creation myth
I'm sure you have a lot on your plate but I'd welcome any help you can lend rebuilding the article as we've earlier discussed to be more in keeping with the relevant content about this category and the comparisons, commonalities, themes, functions and significances of creation myth in human cultures than an exhaustive recapitulation of all known creation stories. I tried to do enough of the backwork to copyright check and identify sources for the unsourced sections in the collection that would allow pruning without the WP:UNDUE problem. And the last bits I'm confident I can see through in a reasonably short amount of time. But I'm trying to plan a holiday, and I'm not so confident I have time to rebuild much more in the new framework for the creation myth article before I go. The work involved to get to this point has been (proverbially speaking) backbreaking. But the article is now in such an unfinished state that I'm concerned that this backwork will be completely undone if I go away for a short week or two holiday. Any help you could lend to the rebuild there would be gi-normously welcome. Professor marginalia (talk) 05:46, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks so much Griswaldo. I'm going to userfy the remaining Native American myths, which I think are all still unreferenced.  They can wait while the main article is redeveloped. Professor marginalia (talk) 16:31, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * No, you're right. I'm going to add some subsections that can act as an outline of sorts, but nothing's set in stone. I couldn't find that any good content about creation myths was ever written in the article so we're building from scratch here.  A lot to do, eh? Professor marginalia (talk) 17:39, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for everything Griswaldo. You've been a big help.  Enjoy your weekend.  I'll be taking off shortly as well. Professor marginalia (talk) 02:10, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

reply
The user in question is most active at the historicity of jesus and the Christ-myth theory articles, but he is not alone. You know what I would say at an RfC but I wonder if it might be better to propose something to the NPOV policy that (1) we should identify the POV of texts, not authors (as we cannot read people's minds only what they write) and (2) POV should be detemined by explicit statements about one's view made by the author of the text, or descriptions of the the text's point fo view found in another reliable source. (3) one cannot assume POV based solely on biographical information about the author; the value of biographical information depends on (1) and (2). If you can draft this into something coherent and elegant I will support it.

I would still like to know what your feelings are about the "history" section of the Judaism article! Slrubenstein  |  Talk 18:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Historicity of Jesus
I've started a thread on the talk page of Historicity of Jesus regarding my second recent full protection of the page. Your comments and thoughts would be appreciated. - F ASTILY  (T ALK ) 23:35, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Marriage
I gotta get going for now, can you watch and report the IP for 3RR C T J F 8 3  chat 16:40, 14 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry but I have to reply here. I don't have any problem with you griswaldo, and though I disagree at times with you on the talk page (for marriage) I would like that we could AGF toward each other. CTJF83 is either refering to me (DMSBel) or the other IP (beginning 71, don't remember rest of his/her IP).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by DMSBel (talk • contribs) 15:32, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Genesis creation narrative
Hi Griswaldo. You might not have spotted it, but Cush did make some remark on the talkpage about POV. There wasn't a direct reference to adding a POV tag, but it'd be difficult to miss the suggestion that the article was tending towards a POV. Cheers, --P LUMBAGO 11:43, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

thanks, but
I appreciate your many comments, whether signs of sympathy or solidarity or support, as well as your own views on the matter. But you have to know this: I think bigotry is wrong. If anything at WP is "wrong" i.e. can get someone blocked, bigotry should be one of those things. I oppose it when I see it in the real world and I have to oppose it when I see it on-line. It doesn't have anything to do with strategy or tactics. There are very few things that I think are this wrong, but bigotry is one of them.

Liberals claim to be "tolerant." So the challenge of any liberal society is, what is the limits of toleration? What won't be tolerated? For me, the answer is bigotry. I believe people have the right to free speech and bigots have a right to free speech but this is one of those few cases where I think anyone of consciense has no choice but to speak back. Slrubenstein  |  Talk 17:35, 17 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I get that, but I don't think its all about "tactics" either. My point is that if you encounter bigotry in the real world and your reaction to it gets you thrown in jail what good is that?  I'm a pragmatist, and I think its important to consider the overall results of our actions.  I can't change your mind, of course, if you believe that it is more important to stand up to bigotry and flat out call it what it is no matter what the consequences.  If that's the case then all the power to you.  I just selfishly hope that in situations like this we can get rid of the bad seeds more efficiently.  It's just my perspective and I know you'll do what you think is right regardless.  No worries.Griswaldo (talk) 17:47, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Circumcision and controversy
Referring to our articles on circumcision, you said "Who would have known this was such a POV battleground?" Really, though, it makes perfect sense it would be one. What are the underlying issues? Human rights, medicine, religion and sex (different people tend to have different emphases depending personal views). And those are all real-life controversial issues. Makes it perfect ground for POV disputes, really. That's my analysis, at least. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 02:50, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Historicity of Jesus
You may be interested in this discussion. Slrubenstein  |  Talk 18:01, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:ANI regarding User:Gniniv
User:Gniniv has filed another mediation request (this time through MedCab) nearly identical to the last one in which you took part. The Medcab report has resulted in an ANI report being filed. If you wish to take part in the ANI thread, please feel free to do so. All the best, Jess talk&#124;edits 03:00, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Re: Sister Wives
As per your message, I've brought this to the talk page. —  Hun ter   Ka  hn  12:45, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Please take note of this edit
Please take note of this edit. I misunderstood the timing there. Sorry about that, no disrespect intended! —  Hun ter   Ka  hn  19:39, 1 October 2010 (UTC)


 * No worries. When I changed the other redirect in the middle of the conversation that was hasty ... though I think it was the right move.  My point is I can understand even more why you thought it was hasty given that episode.  Anyway really no big deal.  Thanks for the note.Griswaldo (talk) 20:40, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Flood myth
I been too busy to edit lately, but will help when and where I can. Thanks for the notice! Professor marginalia (talk) 16:26, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Longevity myths
What on earth do we do? The article is battled between two sides, and each seems to be as mistaken as the other. (tears at hair) Itsmejudith (talk) 18:24, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

This is a horrible comment
Again I'm not interested in this category more generally and find it less than trivial for the most part. See WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Entries that just list things based on the interests of a small group of hobbyists do not belong in an encyclopedia. That's my view. I should mention this a second time as well, the current entry is basically a list and seems to violate WP:SINGULAR rather blatantly.Griswaldo (talk) 18:27, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

If you go back to 2005, you'll see that this article is primarily an "essay" and any list of individual longevity claims can be branched out into a separate article, if need be.

Ryoung 122 19:42, 15 October 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not a horrible comment. This is an encyclopedia and not an indiscriminate collection of facts.  I appreciate that you care about certain subsets of facts, but the fact that you care about them doesn't mean that collecting them here is appropriate.Griswaldo (talk) 20:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

JJBulten and the "bolding" war
Greetings,

Please read JJBulten's comments again. It's clear that he is in violation of WP:POINT and started what HE self-referenced as a "bolding war" to make a point. But his point is not so clear.

1. The MOS policy on bolding refers to italics in article text, but the bolding used here is used for self-contained names in a list.

2. Bulten's comments, like this below,

G, they just have their ways at WP:WOP. If you stick with me in maintaining policy compliance on the bigger issues, the little issues will be solved more easily. JJB 16:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

show that he is violating WP:CANVASSING. That's a clear, over-the-top statement. He is a bully, seeking out tangential "wars" because he wants to push his main point, which is the equivalent of teaching creationism in schools and kicking evolution out. Ryoung 122 20:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Master's thesis
Regarding your below comment:


 * Are you seriously linking your own masters thesis? First of all a masters thesis is not considered a reliable source. If you don't believe me ask the Reliable Sources noticeboard. Then there is the fact that its your masters thesis. You clearly have a conflict of interest here. I'd stick with outside sources if I were you.Griswaldo (talk) 20:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Responses:

1. You should provide a link to the "reliable sources" noticeboard that discusses this.

2. While not all Master's theses may be "reliable," that does not mean that some cannot be. For example, I could have chosen to not make my thesis available online. Instead, it has a stable URL link.

3. The thesis won the national award for best graduate paper in gerontology by a student in 2008.

4. I already had this published in a book. You can order it on Amazon.com.

Product Details AFRICAN-AMERICAN LONGEVITY ADVANTAGE: MYTH OR REALITY?: A Racial Comparison of Supercentenarian Data - Paperback (Feb. 5, 2009) by Robert Young Buy new: $101.00 $90.90 Get it by Monday, Oct. 18 if you order in the next 16 hours and choose one-day shipping. Eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping.

However, the longevity myths section was just a chapter, not the whole book.

5. As for "conflict of interest," JJBulten is an editor on a Christian conservative website, and his reason for pushing this whole controversy is because in his mind the labelling of Noah as a "myth" offended him---even though it is. Is that not COI?

6. A lot of the "solutions" offered are from people not familiar with the subject and with little interest. Yet we find a lot of media coverage, book coverage, journal article coverage, etc.

7. I agree with you, and you noted, that Custance is a far-right fringe source. It is reliable for religion but not science. For example, an article on Custance could use these sources, but they should not be viewed as scientific.

8. We see JJBulten canvassing for support.

9. We see JJBulten opening up new "fronts" of "attack," such as his self-titled "Bolding War."

Do we see consensus from someone like this?

The first step I tried to take was to calm things down. That is NOT working as he is keeping the attacks up, or making up his own material.

I wanted to wait until the "merge" proposals were decided (they should be turned down; at least JJ and I agree on something) before we go to other issues. However, JJ continues to create more issues, such as his attempt to separate myths as pre-1955 and claims as post-1955.

A lot of what he is doing is political, ideological, and not really helpful.

Ryoung 122 20:59, 15 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The fact that JJB is ideologically motivated isn't relevant to the discussion you and I were just having. So you are both acting out your own various self-interested motivations ... great.  How fun for the rest of us who are trying to build an encyclopedia!  The fact that you have published your master's thesis is pretty irrelevant as well, especially since it's published by what seems to amount to a vanity press.  I'm happy to ask the RS/N specifically about your Master's thesis.Griswaldo (talk) 21:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Done. See Reliable_sources/Noticeboard.  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 21:13, 15 October 2010 (UTC)


 * You may be interested in this response. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 15:20, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

NPOV issue at Park51
This message is for you because you passed comment at Talk:Park51 in response to an RfC raised by User:NickCT. Please note that you gave an answer to this user on alternative wording to the introduction before the issue of Wikipedia's neutrality which was raised at WP:NPONV has been resolved. If you have not done so already, please read the issues as presented at WP:NPOV and and give an answer to the neutrality question. It is my opinion that the neutrality issue needs to be resolved first. Kind regards User:Hauskalainen

Repeated accusations of disruption
Please stop with your accusations. Take them to WQA or the like. --Ronz (talk) 16:46, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Look, you need to be more supportive of the consensus approach to editing. We're all trying to get accurate into on the article page, but WP:BURO can affect the notion of establishing a consensus approach to article writing and discussions. We each have a right to our opinions, and it's not any one person's job to police other editors comments. That's for admins to decide. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 17:27, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Price FTN - Thanks!
I'm glad that some agreement seems to be forming, thanks in a large part to you. . --Ronz (talk) 19:56, 20 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Just a friendly warning: ScienceApologist will pretty much write forever if allowed. And he can be very annoying.
 * Noticeboards are for getting others' opinions, not extended discussions. We'll all be better off focusing on the article, finding new refs, etc. --Ronz (talk) 16:05, 21 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Point taken. I need reminding of these types of things usually or else I will also annoyingly write for ever.Griswaldo (talk) 16:18, 21 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks once again . I may have understated the annoying bit. --Ronz (talk) 15:13, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Weston Price
I've added a couple of refs to the article. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 01:49, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

BLP
Please do not add unreferenced or poorly referenced information, especially if controversial, to articles or any other page on Wikipedia about living persons. Thank you. --Ronz (talk) 15:09, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Look. The warning specifically mentions poorly referenced sources.
 * "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion."
 * See WP:GRAPEVINE --Ronz (talk) 15:15, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes Ronz, that is what your warning claims. The warning is not empirical proof of your position.  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 15:20, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It was made to clarify what appears to be a misunderstanding here. --Ronz (talk) 15:23, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Editwarring
Without taking a position, I can promise you that edit warring on noticeboards over arugable but not clear-cut BLP violations is not best practices. I have left this exact message on the talk pages of both parties - I propose that you both cut it out and reach some kind of agreement as to what parts of the comment are objectionable and should be excised. Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 15:15, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * No problem I realize it takes two to tango. For the record I've asked the editor many times now to get input at the BLP/N if he really thinks it is a BLP violation.Griswaldo (talk) 15:17, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The information is disputed under BLP. Please leave it out while we settle this. --Ronz (talk) 15:19, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you want to start the report or shall I? --Ronz (talk) 15:21, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * If you really intend to do so then please do. I was about to do so myself since all your past actions this time and the last have been unilateral leaving me to believe you would never ask for outside input on this.Griswaldo (talk) 15:22, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

"Ronz please do not duplicate the requests." I don't understand, what "duplicate requests?" --Ronz (talk) 16:27, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

COI
I've noted that I do not find your comments to be in good faith. . I've done so again. . WP:COI specifically references WP:HARASS for a reason. This is not the first time I've been harassed with such nonsense. Please stop.

Also, note that I don't find Hans Adler's comment which you referenced to be made in good faith either. --Ronz (talk) 17:51, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Please do not attack other editors. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. --Ronz (talk) 18:05, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Mediation is back on
PhilKnight has offered to co-mediate between Ryoung122 and myself. JJB 19:39, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Since you have expressed a desire to delete topics like this, could you please follow through on your stated position by commenting on Articles for deletion/Oldest military veterans (2nd nomination), at which your stated view is being controverted by Ryoung122 et al.? Thank you. JJB 19:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

BLPN Leeway
Re I think we may be misunderstanding each other. I'm going to try to summarize what I see (gimme a couple minutes). It might help if you did the same, or just expanded upon the linked comment. --Ronz (talk) 15:28, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * First, are you responding to the first paragraph, "This does not...?" I think you're responding to the last sentence of the last paragraph, "They indicate that..." --Ronz (talk) 15:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Basically, I'm saying that two editors, myself and Off2riorob (14:50, 23 Oct), have commented on what leeway is and is not allowed. Dougweller (14:47, 25 Oct) has also commented since.
 * I guess I'm discussing two different things that's causing some confusion. I'll refactor while awaiting your reply. --Ronz (talk) 15:37, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks!
 * Now it ties in well with . --Ronz (talk) 15:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

It would be helpful now if your refactored the (15:22, 25 Oct) comment. Maybe remove it completely?

If you want to go into detail on the topic, we can do so here. --Ronz (talk) 15:54, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

BLPN Stuck
Re : It was a bold move on my part, nothing more. I don't see a problem with your removing it, though the edit summary is inappropriate. --Ronz (talk) 15:02, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Ronz you are one disruptive step from me going to a user conduct noticeboard. I'm getting really fed up with your unilateral declarations and violations of WP:TALK.  You need to restore Bruce's comments where you deleted them now that it is clear no one shares your BLP concern.  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 15:14, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I suggest you read WP:TALK rather than make threats, which are in violation of WP:TALK, ironically.
 * I'm doing my best to work with multiple editors that don't follow WP:TALK and WP:CON. As always, I'm happy to discuss my edits and better approaches to my editing with others. --Ronz (talk) 15:45, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm concerned that though you replied to my comment above, where I indicated I had no problem with you removing the tag, you proceeded to remark later that you were concerned that I might restore the tag once again, eleven minutes after your response above, and 33 minutes after my initial comment. --Ronz (talk) 16:16, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion. When there's no consensus, I prefer to err by being conservative and assume BLP applies. I'll wait and see what discussion develops on my talk, and follow up with the uninvolved editors. --Ronz (talk) 16:41, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Ugh. Enough with the wikilawyering already.   You are in violation of WP:TALK please restore the comments ASAP.,Griswaldo (talk) 16:42, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Your attempt to archive the discussion misrepresents other editors, in violation of WP:TALK and WP:CON. I've reverted it. --Ronz (talk) 16:51, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I've changed the summary to "No consensus." I hope that represents the situation accurately and neutrally. --Ronz (talk) 16:58, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I do not agree with your assessment Ronz. I merely point out that even if there is no consensus and you believe so you should restore the comments.Griswaldo (talk) 16:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Expect to see a WQA on this Ronz. I don't have time to attend to it this second but your disruptive antics need to stop.  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 17:01, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for not wording it as a threat this time! --Ronz (talk) 17:07, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


 * That is not a threat Ronz, it is a promise. If anything it will give you more time to prepare your answer.  I'm sick of your unilateral moves, gaming, and policy violations.  I'm not threatening to report them, I'm telling you now that I plan to report them.   Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 17:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


 * In order for it to be a threat it would have to be an attempt to coerce you to do something I want you to. That is not the case.  Informing you in advance that I plan to do something irrespective of what you do, is not a threat.  It is simply forewarning, but your attempt to construe it as a threat is just more of the same gaming you like to engage in.  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 17:15, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "Do not threaten people: For example, threatening people with "admins you know" or having them banned for disagreeing with you. Explaining to an editor the consequences of violating Wikipedia policies, like being blocked for vandalism, is permitted however." - WP:TALK
 * I won't be preparing anything. I think the comments on your talk page are enough. --Ronz (talk) 17:31, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Ronz, just like on the various noticeboards you can't simply assert that something is the case without some evidence. I've done nothing like what is described in your quoted policy text. 1) Threating you with "admins I know" -NEGATIVE. 2) Threatening to have you banned - NEGATIVE.  In fact, as I've pointed out, I've not threatened anything at all.  Please familiarize yourself with what a threat is in actuality.  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 17:37, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for responding. The quote from WP:TALK gives multiple examples, including how to properly handle the situation. In comparing your comments to the quote, I agree your comments could have been worse. They appear to be more like the examples of what not to do rather than what to do, hence my bringing it up at (15:45, 26 Oct) and then quoting it above. --Ronz (talk) 17:54, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate your refactoring. I had notified him of the discussion. --Ronz (talk) 17:26, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

GRISWALDO, don't you think you should close the thread on the noticeboard now? I think it's over now right? -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 18:46, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

WQA
As I promised here is the WQA discussion - Wikiquette_alerts.Griswaldo (talk) 18:55, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

FTN Stuck
FTN is not RSN. Do you believe there was consensus at RSN?

The question that you put to FTN is whether or not the Quackwatch ref is UNDUE. What do you believe the consensus is to your question? Do you believe other questions were asked and resolved that are within the scope of FTN? --Ronz (talk) 16:00, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Re: : It would have helped if you had responded to my comments directly above.
 * I explained that summaries should indicate what comments they were derived from. I'm doing my best without such a summary.
 * I hope you'll remove or refactor your comment. We were making good progress. I'm not objecting to anything, so how about removing "Regarding your objections." "Are you serious?" is, I hope, just an expression of frustration. Please remove it. --Ronz (talk) 17:44, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I think it would be extremely helpful it everyone focused what we clearly agree upon first. Any agreement would be progress, and there's no reason that we can't continue discussing unresolved issues that are important to editors. --Ronz (talk) 18:07, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Re Confused
Re, Basket of Puppies placed the template on my talk page. I've warned her. --Ronz (talk) 02:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You warned another editor for "misuse of a warning template". The irony is nearly drowning me Ronz.Griswaldo (talk) 02:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the support. --Ronz (talk) 03:00, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

tb
Basket of Puppies 02:52, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Bottomline for the ANI
Ronz and company own the Price article. Best of luck, I'll probably delete it from my watch list so I don't have to watch the butchery. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 00:38, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

So you're going to chastise me now for not indenting the way YOU wanted. My indent was proper under the post I was replying to. Sorry if you don't agree with that. Best wishes. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 13:56, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * If you are going to leapfrog someone's comment then you ought to make it clear that you've done so by way of indentation. It's not just my desired use, it's for the sake of clarity int he discussion.  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 14:36, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, to me when comments line up they point toward the comment less indented, and I didn't want to appear to be speaking to you for those less perceptive. I meant no harm. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 14:43, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Also not sure why you've chosen now to bash me (i.e., "as personal as some other frustrated parties seem to be"). I supported you the entire time, never once insinuated anything about you. Sorry you felt it beneficial to say this publically. I'm sorry if I offended on the noticeboards. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 14:43, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not bashing you. I didn't indicate anyone in specific.  I just don't share some of the outrage I'm seeing to the extent I'm seeing it.  Do you want me to refactor that?Griswaldo (talk) 14:45, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No of course not, just don't want you to judge me. I think I put almost as much time into this as you. I just wish I had been as smart as Bruce (who knows when the hell to get out). -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 15:33, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Reference dump on the Focal infection theory article's talk page
I just found a major article on the modern version of Focal infection theory and not only provided a link to it but also included every reference it uses on the talk page. This should help firm out the gaps in the current article.--BruceGrubb (talk) 14:49, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

WP:ORN
I have started a thread at the above noticeboard with regards to our recent discussion on Weston Price. . Yobol (talk) 22:52, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * As I have stated there and on the Weston Price talk page the reliable source material doesn't seem to suggest the existence of more than one focal infection theory. Rather what I think I am getting out of the material is that it was there it was used to explain the majority of infections and that aspect of it was disproved and a more moderate version where it was used as the mechanism for a much smaller set of diseases survived into modern times.--BruceGrubb (talk) 18:55, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Focal Infection theory
I just did a major rewrite of Focal infection theory. I think I have captured what the material is saying--that it started out as a general theory that became popular in the field of oral medicine and that this specific application of it dominated dental and medical articles of the 1910 to 1930 period and then returned to just one concept among many others from 1940 on. Take a look and tell me what you think.--BruceGrubb (talk) 10:52, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Any reason you couldn't just move the break point to a better location then just outright deleting it? -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE 15:23, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

That was my first thought, but Bruce used an "outdent" (see this response from me as another example of one). It requires a continuation from the previous comment visually or it makes no sense. Sorry.Griswaldo (talk) 15:25, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * But it doesn't create an edit point, so you have to scroll two miles to the top to hit edit. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE 15:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes I know. I'm simply saying that it's not a good place to break for that reason.  Definitely not in the middle of someone's comment, but also not when someone is trying to tie their comment to the previous one.  This is pretty common sense and I'm unsure why it is an issue.  Comparatively speaking the thread isn't even that long either.  Why not break it just after Bruce's comment?  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 15:50, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I just wondered why you just deleted it, that's all. Seems an odd thing to do.  Obviously I meant to place the break in the correct location, it's not like I wanted to screw up Bruce comment.  See ya. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE  16:00, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I never thought you did. I just edited it because however well intentioned it was it ended up messing with the formatting in a way that is not good for the reader.  It isn't a big deal like I said. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 16:19, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Nomination of Jan Goossenaerts for deletion
A discussion has begun about whether the article Jan Goossenaerts, should be deleted. While contributions are welcome, an article may be deleted if it is inconsistent with Wikipedia policies and guidelines for inclusion, explained in the deletion policy.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Jan Goossenaerts until a consensus is reached, and you are welcome to contribute to the discussion.

You may edit the article during the discussion, including to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Article was created immediately after subject turned 110. JJB 20:27, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

BLP/BLPN
Thanks, Griswaldo. I actually chose BLP on purpose, since I was looking for clarification and background on the general policy before posting a case to BLP/N. I was looking mainly for the historical/policy precedents rather than a specific ruling on the NCAHF situation. I do think your advice is helpful, and could definitely use it if you think I'm missing any key points. Thanks again, Ocaasi (talk) 05:01, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Edits at NCAHF
Hey Griswaldo, would you check over this, this, and this/this. I'm obviously in a contentious area and was attempting to stick to a discussion about the sources... when BLP and Libel issues kept coming up, I asked QuackGuru if he had a COI, on my talk page, then in explaining that discussed why I thought his editing patterns might indicate one, on the article's talk page. It apparently came across as a personal attack, though I thought it was an explanation/response to questions I had been asked or a less controversial statement than it was taken to be. No need to get involved, I'm just curious if you have any comment. Thanks, Ocaasi (talk) 19:58, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Longevity COI
A discussion about longevity WP:COI has been initiated at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject World's Oldest People. As a recent contributor to this page, your comments are solicited. JJB 20:17, 11 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment: Grismaldo, I think your editing has been more reasonable than that of JJBulten and Itsmejudith, but we can see from above that you are being used by JJBulten to canvass. He can't attack the firm foundation of verifiability that a lot of the articles he has a problem with, so he instead is going for attacking the editors, such as myself.

I would ask you to step aside, simply because it is evident that you have been recruited to be at these discussions, which makes them COI themselves. Ryoung 122 20:27, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

FYI update
I made some changes - your response would be appreciated, at Talk:Werner_Erhard_vs._Columbia_Broadcasting_System. Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 20:37, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

ArbCom
You are involved in a recently-filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Arbitration/Requests and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—
 * Arbitration/Requests;
 * Arbitration guide.

Thanks,

est/Landmark issues
I am well aware of the dubious nature of Cirt's history under a previous name, actually. I am also equally well aware that, unfortunately, many and or most of his additions at that time which resulted in his blocking were of reliably sourced information added to balance an article which had been unbalanced in favor of the subject. I am also aware of some substantial off-wiki harrassment he has received for adding material to articles which the proponents of the subject don't like. And I've even received a few messages myself from other editors on this topic who were trying to (falsely, as it turns out) advise me that Cirt's adding reliable, well-referenced material on the topic to pages which then lacked any such content was in some way "unbalancing" the article. But, yeah, there can be and is a bit of an AGF issue about a lot of this, and I acknowledge that.

I often find myself displaying the symptoms of foot-in-mouth disease around here, and this may be another instance of that. Regarding the article in question which prompted this discussion, I still think that it would be reasonable to indicate to whoever winds up closing it that there are a number of people who commented who have rather specific viewpoints on the issue, and that could be taken into account. I would love to see some sort of guideline, essay, or whatever which could be linked to in some cses to indicate that point, but don't know of any such right now. It might say something to the effect that there have been serious POV and maybe COI concerns regarding multiple editors who regularly edit the article or topic. Landmark Education, est, etc., is one of those topics. I agree the proportion of serious POV pushers on this content is probably ridiculously high comparable to most other content, and, yeah, that it could be argued Cirt is one of them.

FWIW, I am currently in the process of putting together an essay which has as one of its goals maybe trying to create some sort of procedure to more easily soft-lock articles which have reached a given level of quality (say A-class) to address matters like this. That may be one of the few things we can do to deal with such matters. John Carter (talk) 21:01, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, yeah, I forgot. There was evidence that several of the Landmark editors may have been or are currently employees of the firm, which would establish a clear COI regarding that topic. Amway has similar problems. I myself don't remember exactly which editors have been established to have such a COI, but as I remember when looking over the material there were at least a few, and several others who had an unusual interest in ensuring that it be portrayed in a clearly positive light. John Carter (talk) 18:33, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity
An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, NW ( Talk ) 14:55, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If you are interested in providing evidence to this case, please see this note about a deadline. NW ( Talk ) 18:51, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Hey
It's Tom not Tim. You're not the first person to make that mistake, don't worry - have I got myself down as "tim" somewhere? Doesn't worry me what people call me (used to be a time I would blank people that called me Tom instead of Thomas :P thank the gods I got over that!) but I wouldn't want to find I told people my name is Tim somewhere... that would be stoopid ;) (p.s. sorry for snapping at you yesterday, one of those days) --Errant[tmorton166] $(chat!)$ 16:37, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No worries, I'm the one who should apologize - sorry. Certain arguments get me all riled up unnecessarily.  As an agnostic I'm just tired of all the atheists trying to rule the non-theist roost ;).  Kidding, but anyway no worries at all.Griswaldo (talk) 16:39, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh don't worry... water off a ducks back. And I know what you mean, I'm an (little a) atheist in "belief" but dislike being considered a (big A) Atheist for all the usual reasons :) Terribly difficult COI to be objective about here on the wiki, which I why I usually stay away from it :) --Errant[tmorton166] $(chat!)$ 16:43, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Regarding the Tim/Tom thing I'm also sorry about that. I think its just something about the way your sig is spelled that triggers this in my brain rather unconsciously.  I'll try to be more cognizant of your actual name.Griswaldo (talk) 16:44, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

AfDs
Hi. As you just participated in discussions on a closely related topic (also a current AfD re a Jewish list), which may raise some of the same issues, I'm simply mentioning that the following are currently ongoing: AfDs re lists of Jewish Nobel laureates, entertainers, inventors, actors, cartoonists, and heavy metal musicians. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Opinion?
Hypothetically... A new user writes a biased section. On talk, other users help to make it more neutral. One editor offers his suggestion and puts it in the article. I found the version to be unsatisfactory and reverted with a note in the edit comment and on talk. Then I was reverted by an admin without a reason or a comment. I left a note on the Admin's talk page. Should I revert again? Ocaasi (talk) 10:05, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
 * FWIW, the admin was mistaken about which study was being discussed and self-reverted. Ocaasi (talk) 10:47, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It looks like this settled itself. The admin self-reverted per WP:BRD.  Right?Griswaldo (talk) 19:46, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

A page that you might want to take a look at...
User:Til Eulenspiegel/Religious narratives as sacred canon (apologies if you've already seen it). HrafnTalkStalk(P) 17:22, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
 * One of the many things I try to ignore. I wonder though if the page is a violation of user space guidelines.  I can't find any exact language about this type of user subpage, but could this possibly be legit?Griswaldo (talk) 19:44, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As it was showing up as 3rd if you search Google for "religious narratives", I've added a noindex tag. Dougweller (talk) 21:43, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Colonel Warden RFC/U
FYI - A request for comments has been started on User:Colonel Warden. Since you participated in this ANI thread which preceded this RfC/U, you might be interested in participating. If so, please see Requests for comment/Colonel Warden. Thanks. Snotty Wong  talk 01:00, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Update
Update: Please see my edit in response to your requests, to Harry Palmer, and to Lee Baca. Okay? ;) -- Cirt (talk) 18:08, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Re:ANI
You asked the other day about Cirt, and mines relationship. We butt head more often than not Talk:Scientology (James R. Lewis book), (note my former account is used there) Talk:List of cult and new religious movement researchers/Archive 2 and Talk:Rick Ross (consultant) are most recent sparing matches. Interestingly enough we have been agreeing a bit lately, such as at Talk:Werner Erhard vs. Columbia Broadcasting System. I try to keep a working relationship with her but its incredibly difficult at times. She takes thing content disputes personally which is often causes her to dig her heals in. She has been coming around to being more receptive to such things as Jayen466 notes at ANI so I have hope. When we agree we agree when we dont its difficult to get much done. She and I at the root have fundamental different views on issues, I am strongly Libertarian and academically interested in the whole NRM phenomenon thus naturally sympathetic to such movements. I suspect She has been deeply hurt either directly or indirectly by the movement in question thus I dont hold it against her. I call her out on it when appropriate and am supportive when flack is thrown. We all have baggage and personal biases that creep into our contributions. Cirt provides a counter weight for my strong NRM views so I work with her. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 01:52, 13 December 2010 (UTC)


 * exhausted sigh this seems to be spiraling out of control and fast. I am not sure i like where this is going. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 21:53, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Victor Győry
Hey there. I just wanted to let you know that another editor removed your prod for Victor Győry. I have nominated the article for deletion at Articles for deletion/Victor Győry. NW ( Talk ) 23:12, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

How to nominate for speedy deletion
see WP:SPEEDY, i havent looked at the page in question, but I think db-g10 - attack page - would be the reason/tag. Active Banana    (bananaphone  16:24, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Many thanks.Griswaldo (talk) 16:27, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I was recently informed by you that on the Books-A-Million page, the tags could not be relocated to the bottom. I was basing that movement off their position in the Barnes and Noble page. Should those tags also be moved to the top?
 * Yes. There is no rule that states this but it is convention here.  We want to see the tags so that the necessary improvements can be made.  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 16:19, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Plagiarism
While I do not deny that it was plagiarism by the Wikipedia definition, I did not intend it as plagiarism as I understand it, "presenting someone else's work as my own". I posted someone else's work, and I referenced it linking it back to the original. I never meant any claim (though I understand how it could be taken as implied) that it is my own work. I'm an inexperienced editor and I thought that's what we did here, offer reliable information about every imaginable topic. This point keeps coming back up, so I wanted you to know exactly what the experience has been on my end. I'm simply trying to do a good job, and of course that goes along with mistakes. My earnest desire is to get an appropriate article up, not to post some piece of creative writing. I seek and need your help with this. Eikou (talk) 16:38, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I figured it was a mistake from the beginning. No harm no foul.  Let's see what the noticeboard people say and take it from there.Griswaldo (talk) 20:01, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Section duplication
Thanks. I think the edit conflict did that somehow. Or maybe it was supernatural intervention :) Guettarda (talk) 15:03, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * "God only knows" ... which means I never will since I don't believe in the chap. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 15:16, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Foodimentary
I'm kind of thinking the Public Appearance section needs to go. I feel like it's there as some argument for Foodimentary's notability which is what the discussion page and the notability boards are for, not the article itself. Thoughts? Much love, Eikou (talk) 15:46, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

List of atheists
Griswaldo, I didn't see that other lists of atheists were named similarly, but I think the new name is more in line with convention, e.g. List of American Catholics, not List of Catholics (American). You don't see a lot of parenthetical disambiguating phrases on sub-lists like this. I'll go ahead and change the others. » Swpbτ • ¢ 20:58, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

AfD comments
I don't believe that I referred to the editor in any way in Articles for deletion/Daryl Wine Bar and Restaurant (2nd nomination). I commented on a wrongful description of the sources. Accusing a nomination of being in bad faith is not a comment on the editor, but on the content of their edit. If I stepped over the line, I will gladly refactor my comment. I do not wish to divert the conversation from the actual policy/content of the debate, but the basis for the debate itself should not be off-limits.  Jim Miller  See me 23:11, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Jim you said that the nomination was possibly made in bad faith. Bad faith is always about the editor. Nominations don't make themselves in bad faith, editors do that.  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 23:24, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I understand what you are saying, and I did not have reasonable grounds for what I wrote. I have gone ahead and refactored my comment, but wonder how I can state the underlying premise. Bad faith nominations do happen, and this one clearly misrepresents non-local sources as being local. If there is better wording I can use to indicate this, I would appreciate knowing what you think I can do to indicate an inappropriate or inacurate nomination without bringing the editor into question.  Jim Miller  See me 23:37, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for striking that.Griswaldo (talk) 20:21, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you
Thank you for your comment asking users to stop discussions of personal conduct issues on a project page. It is indeed quite disturbing the degree of focus there on individuals contributors, as opposed to a specific discussion of content itself. ;) Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 18:01, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Proposed year ban on regular editors of this article
And what do you call a mob of religious fanatics who wanted to expell science from the wikipedia? Do you think that mixing a 900-year-old imaginary person with a real person who just has lied about her/his age is correct? Do you think that the need of GRG to ask for documentation is wrong? Do you think that if a person says to be 150 years-old we should believe?Japf (talk) 17:18, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why you ask me these questions. There are several problems with longevity related entries.  One problem is with biblical literalists (though I have hardly seen much of this in my limited time), and one of the other problems is with the ownership and reactionary attitude that you all seem to take.  WP:BATTLEGROUND applies here, as well as WP:OWN.  Do you think you're the only people who want to keep Wikipedia from claiming that biblical figures were real people who were hundreds of years old?  Hardly.  99% of the editors here would agree with that position. What some of us have seen, and not liked, is the amount of unencyclopedic information you are collecting and posting all over the Wiki.  When efforts get under way to trim some of the non-notable lists of old people, or unencyclpedic articles like Longevity myth, your ownership issues really come out to play and you start attacking everyone who opposes you, lumping us all in with these "religionists" you also argue against.  I think JJB should be topic banned from these entries, but I also think RYoung should be, and many of his acolytes.  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 17:59, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * After all you can be reasonable, so I will reply you, because you can understand. Yes, there are some non encyclopedical articles about longevity, specially the ones about supercentenarian people which only the birthdays and dates of death are known. But I have to disagree about articles such as Longevity myths. The article that existed before JJB was encyclopedical, because it was related to what gerontologists call "modern longevity myhths", and regrettably was erased from existence, because the english dictionay of JJB is from the 18th century. But, I must recognise that the article just as it is now is still important.

So, what is the issue of JJB against R. Young and others. JJB as a short minded religious fanatic, does not undesrtand of scientific method is, so he wants that ALL the claims of high longevity must be treated as equivalent. So, a 1000-year myth (unreal), a 150-year old from present days (also unreal), a 115-year old with no documentations (probable, but without prooves, it could be untrue), a documented 115-year-old are just the same thing. What is the result? Presently, there are thousands of claims above 130 years old in the world. If you let this false (it is the right word) to be considered as true, no real claim would be in the first 100 claims. By other side, wikipedia is many times the first source, even for journalists. I believe that when a journalist meet some one claming to 140 years old he or she, for preparing the report, will not go to the GRG site, but will see what wikipedia tells about it. The articles about longevity, just they are now, may have some problems, but they are as true as they can be, beacuse R. Young and their people are controlling it. If they are forbitten to do so, and even if JJB does not spread his cancer, others will. You certainly know that every day there some one that wants to add the oldest person of the village to these articles.Japf (talk) 12:44, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Point of clarification
Hi, Griswaldo. Thanks for your input on the OUTING question. Just for the record though, I may have complained about that editor's behavior on talk pages, but I have never taken any action against him at ANI, WQA, MfD or where-ever. My actions in those pages are purely defensive. Thanks. -- Kenatipo  speak! 22:23, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity
An arbitration case regarding Longevity has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:
 * 1) Standard discretionary sanctions are enacted for all articles related to Longevity (broadly interpreted);
 * 2) is indefinitely prohibited from editing, commenting on, or otherwise participating in any Wikipedia process related to articles about longevity (broadly interpreted);
 * 3) is banned from Wikipedia for a period of one year;
 * 4) WikiProject World's Oldest People is urged to seek experienced Wikipedia editors who will act as mentors to the project and assist members in improving their editing and their understanding of Wikipedia policies and community norms;
 * 5) Within seven days of the conclusion of this case, all parties must either delete evidence sub-pages in their user space or request deletion of them using the db-author or db-self template.

For the Arbitration Committee, AGK  [&bull; ] 22:05, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Swedish diaspora
Similar problems.·Maunus· ƛ · 22:56, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Weston Price
Didn't know if you've been keeping tabs, but u|BruceGrubb has been making a number of the same edits that I has been reverted in the past, as well as started up (or restarted) noticeboard discussions here and here. I was hoping for some outside opinion as I am just repeating myself over and over and you have provided valuable input on the talk page in the past. Thanks for the consideration. Yobol (talk) 01:48, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Admittedly I have glanced at this and stayed out of it. I'll have a look again.Griswaldo (talk) 01:50, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't blame anyone who doesn't want to wade into this morass again, but another opinion, either for or against my own, would be appreciated. Yobol (talk) 02:07, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * In what location might one see the most concise summation of the current issue?Griswaldo (talk) 02:12, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well the "current" issue is the same issue as the previous one I've had with his edits; note my most recent edits where I've removed what seems to be OR/coatrackish material about FIT from the article as well as the wall of quotes in the WP:RSN posting above. It is quite apparent u|BruceGrubb will not let this go, and I just want another opinion on whether I'm following policy correctly here. Yobol (talk) 02:18, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned before the Pallasch, Thomas J. DDS; MS, and Michael J. Wahl, (2003) "Focal infection: new age or ancient history?" Endodontic Topics, 4, 32–45 Blackwell munksgaard article addresses all the revelavent points:
 * 1) It clearly defines FIT using the very same source Ingels does (Easlick KA et al. An evaluation of the effect of dental foci of infection on health. J Amer Dent Assoc 1951: 42:

617–619.)
 * 2) It clearly shows the extraction craze was being vigorously pushed in 1918--long before Price wrote his 1923 book and while it talks about Price's work the impression is that Price's work at best only reinforced an already existing concept. It does say that "(l)ittle attention then as now was paid to the observations that temporal associations are the weakest of epidemiological links and that many of its proponents were infected with the concept of ‘after it, therefore because of it’ for which even today there is no preventive vaccine." (pg 36)
 * 3) "The three most documented, publicized and litigated examples of focal infection are bacterial endocarditis, brain abscess and orthopedic prosthetic joint infections. Opinions abound on many aspects of these infections, but little attention has been paid to the absolute risk to the patient that these infections pose from dental-treatment-induced bacteremias (Table 1)" pg 36. Here we see other examples of FIT, the odds of them occurring, and how the whole thing relates to the revival in dentistry.
 * 4) On page 42 we again see the connection between Price's time and the current revival and that as of yet no real solid evidence for FIT now then in the time of the 100 percenters.
 * Right now this seems to be the best then and now article we have regarding FIT that also mentions Price.--BruceGrubb (talk) 13:10, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

you are welcome
I really misread your edit and overreacted. For what it is worth, I really have done as much research as I could into this (going to a university library). I really tae it as a failure to act in good faith, when kwame insists that the view he is pushing is significant and supported by reliable sources, but that the other significant view, also supported by reliable sources, is neither significant nor reliable. I have never contested his claims. And to represent only one POV in an article, when another POV exists, seems to me to be a real NPOV violation.

Anyway, thanks for accepting my aplology so gracefully. I am glad you called my attention to it, and am sorry to have caused you the grief. Slrubenstein  |  Talk 19:21, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

BLP, ethnicity, gender
Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons

Last year, you commented on a proposal to add ethnicity. By strict count, there was enough support, and no reason that it was abandoned; perhaps being overtaken by events.... I'm re-proposing the same, plus gender, to match all other guidelines. --William Allen Simpson (talk) 07:34, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Rename discussion
1. you are fully allowed to notify everyone who participated in the deletion discussion of the renaming discussion. Provided only that you do notify everyone and that the message is neutrally worded. 2. I am not going to participate because I am trying to stay away from a certain friend who gets on my nerves and makes me loose my temper. I don't want that. Also I have already made all the arguments many times and I really can't be bothered to do it all over again. Feel free to quote my statements regarding renaming the article from the Afd in the renaming discussion. ·Maunus· ƛ · 18:49, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Norwegian diaspora "failed verification"
I did put my explanation in the edit summary: the first half of the sentence does not fail verification at all, but since the second half is only implied in the dictionary definition, I moved the ref closer to the middle of the sentence, so that there's no need for the FV tag. (I admit I didn't mention removing tag in the edit summary, because I thought the change itself would make the verification obvious.) I do not see why you still think the statement fails verification, and I'm opening a discussion on the talk page. Aristophanes68 (talk) 16:18, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not the issue. It fails verification because nothing about the definition referenced has to do with Norway or more importantly the Norwegian diaspora.  This would be like writing an entry on "Martian life" and adding to the definition of "Martian life" a reference to the dictionary definition of "life".  Please leave the tag in.  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 16:30, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, yes, I did misunderstand the tag. Sorry. Should I remove the topic from the talk page, or just strike through it? Aristophanes68 (talk) 16:32, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Whatever you prefer. Removing it is fine if you'd rather do that, or strike through.  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 16:36, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Question about Wikiquette alerts‎
Its probably silly to ask, but what becomes of a WQA in which the reported editor fails to give a reply that seems to indicate an acknowledgement of the issues raised? -- Avanu (talk) 04:48, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I haven't the faintest idea. At the very least you can note that fact for the record. Should another WQA, or ANI, or RFC come about concerning the same issues it might be a good thing to note.Griswaldo (talk) 21:13, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Re:Edit Warring
Dear Griswaldo, please assume good faith. I am working on a response to you right now. Thanks, AnupamTalk 17:45, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Dear Griswaldo, thank you for the notice. However, you are more closer to actually violating WP:3RR as you removed the information after User:JimWae's editing of the paragraph as well as after I inserted additional secondary sources upon your request which referenced the study. The paragraph as it stands in the article was a product of two editors whereas both of your reverts were unilateral. In addition, I have not reverted the article without explanation. I offered much to say at the talk page of the article. I feel that the secondary sources I have placed in the article which reference the Barna Research Study are reliable and therefore, the paragraph is warranted in the article, especially in light of the fact that the Barna Research Group is cited not only among the secondary sources I provided but amongst several sociological journals such as the Oxford Sociology of Religion Journal, Social Indicators Research Journal, etc. I replied to you more thoroughly on the talk page of the article and stated that if you were not convinced, a Wikipedia Request for Comment would be the right direction to go in order to let the community decide the outcome of the situation. I would prefer to correspond with you on the talk page of the article rather than bilaterally in order to take into account the Wikipedia community's views on this matter. I will get back to you the next time I sign on to Wikipedia, which may be later tonight or in the week. I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 18:14, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * If the results of the Barna study are discussed in peer reviewed journals then please use those journals and their interpretations of the results. I'll be happy to respond there instead.Griswaldo (talk) 18:29, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for staying on target in the Diaspora article. I have hope that it can be resolved when I see your very reasonable arguments. :) -- Avanu (talk) 13:56, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Noleander

 * Hey Gris,


 * I think you're right regarding your comments that I should read the debate surrounding Noleander. I'm really at a loss though to see what red lines have been crossed here.  SV produce this post outlining the "key evidence".  Is this really the meat of the case against Noleander..... there really doesn't appear to be anything there...  How is it that so much nothingness has incurred so much debate.
 * Anyways, I'm just posting here b/c I'm curious to hear the perspective of someone who has kept up with the debate. Best, NickCT (talk) 14:08, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not 100% sure what is going on. From the very beginning I've been asking that this be taken to RFC/U so that perspectives, but more importantly evidence of wrongdoing can be presented in an organized manner that we can all follow (and many others have also made made suggestion).  Of course that is moot now that it's at arbitration.  It appears very possible to me, that Noleander has been subtly pushing a POV that is either antisemitic or at the very least rather negative towards Judaism (see User:Mathsci/example for instance).  The fact that he has been editing subjects that are often intertwined with various antisemitic canards makes it less obvious which side of that spectrum his editing falls on.  I think some people believe it makes it more obvious (those would be the editors presently wielding pitchforks) but I don't agree one bit.  I think that fact means we have to be very careful our examination of the issue.  In the end I think every topic he has been editing and every entry he has created could be a legitimate topic for an encyclopedia and could be treated in a NPOV manner.  What we need to determine is how Noleander has been editing in these areas, and whether or not it is as others claim, a sustained effort to push an anti-semitic POV.Griswaldo (talk) 14:37, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
 * See my comment here regarding User:Mathsci/example. I'm still having difficulty seeing really blatant issues here.  Frankly, having edited various anti-semitic canards doesn't mean you necessarily endorse them.  Until I see a list compiling edits that are obviously pushing a POV or endorsing canards, I'm going to assume that Noleander was simply riding too close to the rails and got caught up in the latest round of witch hunts....  NickCT (talk) 02:11, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, but how is it not blatant to make a source that is criticizing someone for making false statement look like it is in fact endorsing those statements?·Maunus· ƛ · 11:44, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * @·Maunus· ƛ · - Reading User:Mathsci/example, I just don't see how what you're saying is true. It seems like a creative interpretation.  If you want to illustrate your POV clearly, I'd be interested to hear the explanation.  I'd suggest you do it at User:Mathsci/example, so as to not clog up Griswaldo's talk page.  Furthermore, if you plan to pursue this point, I think you should probably acknowledge that a number of people (i.e. Me, Gris, AndytheGrump) are having difficulty understanding your interpretation. NickCT (talk) 17:11, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Nick, what I'm not sure about is whether or not this proves antisemitism. However if the editing decisions in the example were conscious it is clearly a negative POV push of some kind.  He has, in my view, in this example ripped sentences out of context.  I do not agree that in doing this he presents a view that is as exaggerated as that of the antisemites the authors are criticizing, but nevertheless he presents a distorted picture which makes the Talmud, and Jewish tradition seem much more focussed on monetary success than it apparently was.  I don't think it is clear, but I don't necessarily think that Mathsci is wrong either.  Perhaps his, and other's responses have just been exaggerated.Griswaldo (talk) 19:22, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with you that the evidence is far from being clear. I do think, however, as Noleander as admitted himself, that he is at the very least adding negative material about Judaism, as he was about Mormonism and some other faiths as well. I don't think that is being disputed.  What some of us would like to find out is whether or not it's just neutral criticism of religion type material or if it crosses some other lines.  I think the answer to that will be apparent after arbitration.  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 11:34, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

RfC/U regarding RAN
Regarding the Request for Comments on Richard Norton. I apologize for messing up in protocol. I didn't know whether it was appropriate to comment in that section, but originally the comment was simply to correct the idea that I was also namecalling. I quoted Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy about use of a word, not to personally attack anyone. It was more to add humor to the thread than anything else, so I was a little surprised to see it then construed by Sharktopus as a personal attack on someone.

I have to admit, I am fairly naive in how the process works in an RfC/U, so if there is anything that you feel I should be doing, or have overlooked, I would appreciate the help. I'm not there to 'win' against Norton. I just want to try and encourage him to work with the community. Typically I have seen him blaze through things with a lot of edits, and rarely give feedback, and when he does give feedback, it is often either trivializing others or lacking in substance. But regardless of the outcome, I feel that I've done enough by simply trying. -- Avanu (talk) 17:49, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Arbitration case
An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Arbitration/Requests/Case/Noleander/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Arbitration/Requests/Case/Noleander/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Salvio  Let's talk about it! 15:33, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

75.57.242.120
I do seem to remember such and individual from the Bay Area IP operating on ANI. Cant recall An Arbcom case off the top of my head but its not a block/ban evasion. Just thought you would like to see some one outside the anti-Noleander group confirm it The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 17:15, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't doubt this when Mathsci said it, but thanks for corroborating. I just take issue with the idea of an roving IP editor commenting in these types of venues about the patterns of behavior exhibited by other editors, when they themselves edit in such a manner as to escape being so criticized by others.Griswaldo (talk) 18:34, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

offtopic discussion

 * Context: this revert

Please read the top of this section for removal rationale:
 * Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

The intent is to keep the talk page focused on improving the article, rather than on general polemics. It's a strict interpretation of talk page guidelines. I'm wearing my admin hat on this; please don't revert, but focus on improving the article and discussions that are based around sources, not interpretations. tedder (talk) 18:15, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Edit conflict- hatting the discussion is acceptable. tedder (talk) 18:16, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that it is off-topic, I simply don't see it as a clear cut violation of talk page guidelines. Editing or removing talk page comments should be reserved for very clear violations, or else it just causes drama, IMO.  Didn't mean to step on your toes.  Sorry about that.Griswaldo (talk) 18:18, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I understand. Generally it isn't done, but cases that head towards TLDR need a more strict interpretation- the linked arbitration case supports this. tedder (talk) 18:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link. That's good to know.  I wasn't aware of that and clearly didn't pay enough attention to your talk page post.  Sorry.  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 18:24, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Noleander
You and I have clashed in the past and will probably clash in the future. You also wrote some things concerning Noleander or (more often the case) his critics that I have not fully agreed with. BUT I think overall your approach to this contentious and complex case has been a model of fairness. I really think that your interventions, your questions and comments regarding other editors' statements, and your approach to evidence are exemplary. I know my opinion cannot matter much, and after all it is just an opinion, but I wanted to let you know how much I admire your resolutely unbiased yet deeply ngaged involvement. Slrubenstein  |  Talk 11:45, 5 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I think our difference about how to handle things owes to my being an anachronism. In Wikipedia's early years the project drew many idealists who believed that a non-hierarchical group of people - i.e. anarchy - would if large enough and given enough time be able to produce something far better than any coordinated or structured effort (it is a popular view among libertarians and anarchists, many of whom were drawn to the project early on, as well as "objectivists" i.e. people who believed that a completely unregulated marketplace simply by virtue of a great mass of people pursuing their own self-interest would produce the most rational economy).  I still believe that conflicts over content are best resolved by open discussion among many editors, guided by very general principles embodied in our policies, which themselves are produced through the action of many collaborative edits over time.  When ArbCom was first created many people opposed it simply on principle.  Obviously more people saw the need, but believed that its power should be limited to resolving personal (rather than content) disputes, and be a mechanism of last resort. The creation of ArbCom creates what one could call a constitutional issue for Wikipedia: does ArbCom in any sense "govern?"  When ArbCom was created I was among what at the time was a very large group, perhaps even most editors, who believed that "the community" which is thanks to wiki technology not an abstract thing (in the sense Rousseau believed in) but a very real interacting community of involved editors, that is the ultimate power and authority in Wikipedia. I could go on laying out the rationale but I think you understand the basic idea.  This is why I think a community ban is far preferable to ArbCom.  The community has to take responsibility for the fate of Wikipedia, and we should not allow any agency to have power over th community.  Sometimes I think I am the equivalent of a republican during the rule of Marcus Aurelius.  Sure, if you have to have an emporer he is aout as good as you can get, but I still prefer the republic.


 * I know that the system I believe in is flawed but I honestly continue to assert that it is no more flawed than ArbCom which has often proved itself (surely despite the best of intentions as well as hard work0 to be a very flawed agency.


 * I think the real problem is that the community has not grown in the way we wanted it to grow. We wanted it to expand through the growing participation of people skilled in research, with access to real books and academic journals and not just snippets from google scholar.  One reason some arguments (like the one between you and I at Judaism) become acrimonious is - in my view - simply because there are not enough editors who care about the topic and are knowledgable about the topic. The whole dream of Wikipedia is the dream of large numbers.  When two people argue over an edit (as we did) the irony is the more they care and know about the topic, the more likely it is to get heated.  But if you have ten or fifteen well-informed people arguing over an edit, it is actually easier to work out a compromise or for an acceptable consensus to form.  So the tragedy of WP is that while the number of editors has increased ten or fifteen-fold, the number of well-informed editors working on th Jsus article or the Freud article or the mrx article (to name some controversial topics) has remained pretty much around two or three, sometimes four.  If those four people come at a topic ith the same general approach they will be able to collaborate productively, but if not, they usually end up clashing (especially if they are all well-informed).  And people (I am not trying to criticize you and if this is true it applies to me too) end up using policies to justify the edits they wish to make, rather than follow the spirit of policies to learn how to make good edits.  The point is, and this may just be my conviction, I think most editors would not agree with me, the quality of WP can never be determined by a committe or by policies.  It depends on a large pool of well-informed editors, the larger the better.


 * It was once easy for anyone to become an admin - you just had to be an experienced editor who has shown signs of good sense. Thus, AN/I would be the place where the community could met to make decisions.


 * But admins should not govern WP any more than ArbCom. I think the real failure of WP is two-fold: first, it has failed to recruit large numbers of well-informed and experienced researchers (e.g. academics or people with advanced degrees in diverse subjects e.g. classics and Biblical history and not just computer science or IT).  Second, we have always been afraid of creating some kind of test for membership in the community.  I have no idea what that test would look like (I am afraid of creating a test too - I just think when you have over a thousand editors, and many of them have no access to a library and are not skilled researchers, we NEED a test; it would be like a test for citizenship).  So we end up relying on poor surogates (admins, or people who have high edit-counts which is an index of quantity not quality).


 * I do not know the solution, but I really am stuck in old ways meaning my image of what WP ought to be, which is why every time I have seen a major problem, I have concluded that the causes come down to these two elements, that have turned our incredible groth from what should have been a source of excellence into a source of conflict and mediocrity.


 * About Noleander ... well, I have already said all I can say; I think we have no choice now but for ArbCom to do what it does. Slrubenstein  |  Talk 13:13, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Just a mention
This is a note to let you know that I have mentioned you here. I am not calling for any action to be taken against you. I am merely expressing my concerns over the thread that transpired here. I just thought I should tell you that you have been mentioned, nothing more. Bus stop (talk) 22:07, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Focal infection theory (again)
Sorry to bother you but I thought you'd like to know user:Ronz removed the material he thinks is NPOV and I had to restore it.--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:37, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Overdid it
Sorry, I got carried away & overdid the tags - I get tired of reverting. If we compare
 * If religion is defined as being part of an organized religious group, it may include some deists and some theists.

with
 * In fact, irreligion may even include forms of theism depending on the religious context it is defined against, like for instance in 18th Century Europe where the epitome of irreligion was Deism.

{ {Request quotation|date=April 2011|reason=Please check that this "irreligion" was not used more as an epithet than as a description of deism. Many, perhaps most, deists considered themselves religious.} } --JimWae (talk) 04:48, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * One is specific about the religious context & the other is not
 * "In fact" is superfluous & contentious
 * "like for instance" strikes me as an awkward expression for formal writing

Re:please STOP and use the talk page
Dear Griswaldo, did you look at the talk page? I wrote an entire section on my edits here. Please address them, rather than removing referenced information from the article. Should you disagree, I suggest we take the information to the Mediation Cabal. Thanks, AnupamTalk 17:54, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you
I know we haven't always been in agreement on article content and so on, but I do appreciate that you took the time to raise a flag regarding Sarek's block. I'm glad to see people care enough to want things done right for right's sake. I've left a comment at the ANI about this, hopefully a thoughtful and reasonable explanation. But thank you again for your efforts. See you in the trenches of Wikipedia. :) -- Avanu (talk) 00:54, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Nikki Yanofsky
Griswaldo—you have a question addressed to you here. I would appreciate it if you would respond on the Nikki Yanofsky Talk page. Bus stop (talk) 03:18, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Int ban
I'd suggest basing it off of this interaction ban: "Banned from interacting with or commenting about Fowler&fowler (talk · contribs), directly or indirectly, anywhere on Wikipedia. This means Zuggernaut is not to discuss, either explicitly nor by allusion, the actions, behaviours, editing, or existence of this user." (from WP:ER). Particularly I think the anywhere on Wikipedia part is important, since it includes the WP namespace. Prodego talk  16:00, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Clearly I made the change some time ago now but I wanted to say thanks.Griswaldo (talk) 21:21, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Griswaldo. After these three edits of Sarek's (his only 'contribution' to the discussion) I will now gladly support an interaction ban because he's pissing me off. If you wish to re-propose one at any time, let me know. ╟─ Treasury Tag ► estoppel ─╢ 19:46, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've supported. (Remember to notify Sarek.) ╟─ Treasury Tag ► stannary parliament ─╢ 21:51, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Done.Griswaldo (talk) 21:54, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

ANI re MacDonald
Hey there. I've replied to you on ANI, and I really do care what you think - and am worried that you think it frivolous.

I think an admin refusing to discuss something in such a brusque manner, and throwing out an ANI notification as stupid, isn't frivolous, but is a matter of concern.

But if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and genuinely will take advice. If I'm making an arse of myself, please tell me so.

Best,  Chzz  ► 03:59, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bringing this up with me personally. I have responded at AN/I.  Sorry for being harsh in the first response.  Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 11:07, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It's fine, really; I didn't consider it harsh. I'd much rather people told me what they thought; there's no need to pussy-foot around. I'm grateful for the feedback.
 * It's starting to seem that ANI wasn't the right place to raise my concerns re. Scott MacDonald - I'll bear that in mind, if I'm ever faced with something similar. Possibly WP:WQA would have been better, but then again, that doesn't seem to get much response. Anyway - as I've said for "better or worse", it's now there on ANI, so probably best left there to see what happens - if only to avoid breaking the 'thread'.
 * Unfortunately, my original query seems to have got a bit lost, as it's now mostly concerned with the 'future wrestling' issue. When I posted the original query, I had no intention of raising that discussion - I'd consider it wrong to do so, as it's also over at DRV.
 * The ANI post was only to try and resolve the problem with Scott MacDonald's behaviour in ignoring my complaint. But I never anticipated any actual actions needed, other than perhaps a 'caution' - thus, you're quite right that ANI might not have been suitable. I suppose the trouble is, our procedures for sorting these things out are less than perfect; ANI might be 'DRAMA-central', but it does tend to get results.
 * Anyway - we live and learn, and I'm grateful for your comments. We'll have to see what happens with it, I think.
 * But I do emphasize - don't worry about being harsh; I am grateful for direct, open, honest feedback - I welcome people telling me when they think I'm doing something wrong. Cheers,  Chzz  ► 22:06, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

eco movement
The people i was referring to before were the radicals not the eco movement that takes things to a grain of rice and thinks ideas through. The radicals and tv ecos are just after the media's attention. I applaud those in the movement who don't want attention and simply wish to make things better without being famous. not all ecos are after attention and the good ones don't care about being on television. 68.70.6.169 (talk) 15:33, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you're talking about and am uninterested in continuing this discussion.Griswaldo (talk) 19:47, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Gayot
I see that the entry for Gayot has been taken down. Is there any way that the copy posted can be edited to meet guidelines? I see entries for Zagat, Frommers and other similar companies, and wonder why the Gayot entry can not be published. Thank you for your help in this matter. GagaMar (talk) 19:16, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Pseodoscience
Editors seem to have a personal disagreement with the mainstream source.
 * The source is practically entirely on the topic of pseudoscience.

The serious matters that are a threat to public health are:

"The ‘Keep libel laws out of science’ campaign was launched on 4 June 2009, in the UK. Simon Singh, a science writer who alerted the public about the lack of evidence supporting chiropractic treatments, was sued for libel by the British Chiropractic Association (Sense about Science, 2009). Similar examples can be found in almost any country. In Spain, another science writer, Luis Alfonso Ga´mez, was also sued after he alerted the public on the lack of evidence supporting the claims of a popular pseudoscientist (Ga´mez, 2007). In the USA, 54% of the population believes in psychic healing and 36% believe in telepathy (Newport & Strausberg, 2001). In Europe, the statistics are not too different. According to the Special Eurobarometer on Science and Technology (European Commission, 2005), and just to mention a few examples, a high percentage of Europeans consider homeopathy (34%) and horoscopes (13%) to be good science. Moreover, ‘the past decade has witnessed acceleration both in consumer interest in and use of CAM (complementary and alternative medicine) practices and/or products. Surveys indicate that those with the most serious and debilitating medical conditions, such as cancer, chronic pain, and HIV, tend to be the most frequent users of the CAM practices’ (White House Commission on Complementary and Alternative Medicine Policy, 2002, p. 15). Elements of the latest USA presidential campaign have also been frequently cited as examples of how superstitious beliefs of all types are still happily alive and promoted in our Western societies (e.g., Katz, 2008). On another, quite dramatic example, Science Magazine recently alerted about the increase in ‘stem cell tourism’, which consists of travelling to another country in the hope of finding a stem cell-based treatment for a disease when such a treatment has not yet been approved in one’s own country (Kiatpongsan & Sipp, 2009). This being the current state of affairs it is not easy to counteract the power and credibility of pseudoscience."

The threat to public health is a statement made as a conclusion rather than an assumption. This is indeed about the topic psedoscience according to the source. For example, "This being the current state of affairs it is not easy to counteract the power and credibility of pseudoscience."

One of the main pseudoscience points from full text is: "As preoccupied and active as many governmental and sceptical organizations are in their fight against pseudoscience, quackery, superstitions and related problems, their efforts in making the public understand the scientific facts required to make good and informed decisions are not always as effective as they should be. Pseudoscience can be defined as any belief or practice that pretends to be scientific but lacks supporting evidence. Quackery is a particular type of pseudoscience that refers to medical treatments. Superstitions are irrational beliefs that normally involve cause–effect relations that are not real, as those found in pseudoscience and quackery. These are a serious matter of public health and educational policy in which many variables are involved."

The authors summarised the public health issue in the abstract. According to the source pseudoscience is a serious matter that threatens public health. It is OR if we don't summarise the main pseudoscience points because it would be taking the source out of context.

From abstract: "Pseudoscience, superstitions, and quackery are serious problems that threaten public health and in which many variables are involved."

The WP:V compliant source must be restored and sumarised at Pseudoscience.

The Matute reference does not need to be a MEDRS qualifying review of pseudoscience literature. The text meets WP:SOURCES. It would be a violation of NPOV to imply a serious dispute where there is none. Therefore it should not be attributed and when the Matute reference is reletively new and peer-reviewed it must be given dueweight. QuackGuru (talk) 00:51, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Mediation around Abortion articles location
After the latest move request has landed up with about equal numbers for both sides I've started a mediation request. Please indicate there if you wish to participate. Thanks. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 18:45, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for notifying me but I do not wish to participate. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 18:47, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

RfC
I think you may have misidentified the editor in question in your endorsement to the whistleblower protection section. Cla68 (talk) 11:30, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow that was some mistake. Ha.  Fixed.  Thanks for that.Griswaldo (talk) 11:32, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Class
Tx for being classy enough to review your position formerly taken at an AfD, and reconsidering it based on new refs. (Not all editors display that characteristic). Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:02, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Class
Tx for being classy enough to review your position formerly taken at an AfD, and reconsidering it based on new refs. (Not all editors display that characteristic). Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:03, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Cirt and Melton
I believe that Cirt is in good faith when discrediting Melton. It is easy to understand why Cirt rejects Melton, though I do not fully agree with Cirt. Completely ignoring ex-members, as Melton does, is a radical methodology. I disagree with this methodology and it is quite insulting to me. Andries (talk) 13:51, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Completely new abortion proposal and mediation
In light of the seemingly endless disputes over their respective titles, a neutral mediator has crafted a proposal to rename the two major abortion articles (pro-life/anti-abortion movement, and pro-choice/abortion rights movement) to completely new names. The idea, which is located here, is currently open for opinions. As you have been a contributor in the past to at least one of the articles, your thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.

The hope is that, if a consensus can be reached on the article titles, the energy that has been spent debating the titles of the articles here and here can be better spent giving both articles some much needed improvement to their content. Please take some time to read the proposal and weigh in on the matter. Even if your opinion is simple indifference, that opinion would be valuable to have posted.

To avoid accusations that this posting violates WP:CANVASS, this posting is being made to every non-anon editor who has edited either page since 1 July 2010, irrespective of possible previous participation at the mediation page. HuskyHuskie (talk) 19:52, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Request for Arbitration Notification
Hello, due to recent events a request for arbitration has been filed by regarding long standing issues in the "Cult" topic area. The request can be found at Arbitration/Requests/Case The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 07:39, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

ANI
FYI, the ANI thread in which you participated concerning User:Marine 69-71 has reopened. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:29, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

an apology
Hi Griswaldo. I want to apologize to you for my response to your post on my talkpage. I was angry and upset and I lashed out. please excuse me you didn't deserve it. Rob - Off2riorob (talk) 18:18, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

what does this mean
Hi, what does this mean - if I am to be a named party in the case I at least need ot understand what it is about, please explain - ""Feuding and BLPs" a case to examine meta behavioral issues and reconcile the applicable principles??? - what do you perceive this is related to? Off2riorob (talk) 23:05, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I wish I knew. My first question to Roger was "What do 'feuding and BLPs' have to do with one another?"  I have not received an answer to that question, nor have any of the other confused parties received any clarity from arbcom about the actual scope of the cases.  Just now I asked them again, for the third time, to end the confusion.  I fear that they are sweeping the allegations of policy violations for Cirt's content editing under the rug with these two confusing cases, by creating scopes that do not pertain to those allegations.  I hope I am proven wrong about that, but for now that's the most likely answer IMO.Griswaldo (talk) 01:05, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * After Cool Hand Luke's response just now, I'm more hopeful about the first case anyway. I'm beginning to think they truly believe the scopes of the two cases are not confusingly worded and that there is dissonance between what they think it means and what the rest of us can discern.  It appears that, for instance, the matters brought up at the RfC are indeed within the scope of the first case.Griswaldo (talk) 02:02, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, that comment from CHLuke seems to broaden the issues under consideration in motion (a) - but what about us, we are currently involved/named in motion (b) with a comment from Risker on the discussion page that we should spend our time getting our evidence collected and within the word limit ...but I (and you) don't know what issues the evidence is related to...? The motion (b) currently appears to be a discussion and clarification of guidance to work within guidelines, broadly speaking about no individual in particular but more about policy and guideline clarification. - Off2riorob (talk) 16:15, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah I should have added that I remain confused about part b of motion 1 as well. I have no clue what the case is supposed to be about.  The BLP issues were all centered on Cirt's editing, but Cirt is not part of that case.  Also, I honestly have no clue about the "feuding."  My impression was that people who didn't want to take the RfC/U evidence seriously resorted to various excuses, one of them being to blame it on "feuding" or "factionalism."  I certainly do not feel like I'm party of any feud between factions myself, so I'm at total loss.Griswaldo (talk) 16:19, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Also at a loss. The names for the case(b) are all from the User:Cirt RFC so I can only assume the focus is on comments issues raised in the discussion there. If the case (b) is about blp and feuding - I may remove myself - as I do not consider myself to have been involved in any BLP problems or any feuding..do you consider yourself involved under such a title? I would just appreciate a clarification of what to start collecting and presenting evidence about. Off2riorob (talk) 16:24, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Not in the least. I have commented about BLP issues broadly, on the talk page of the RfC, but they all relate to Cirt, who is not an involved party in case b by design. While I have argued with editors vehemently on that talk page no such arguments come close to being part of any feud that I know of.Griswaldo (talk) 16:29, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I am just going to wait till its created and take it from there, regards. Off2riorob (talk) 22:18, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I suppose some of the responses to the RfC/U could be included in case 2 evidence, although they would really be better dealt with in case 1. -- J N  466  02:20, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Griswaldo, are you planning to submit evidence in the Cirt case related to his disputes with Njsustain, THF and any similar ones? In that case I would drop that from my presentation, as we are all bound by word and diff limits. -- J N  466  02:20, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes I will present that evidence.Griswaldo (talk) 10:20, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'll not mention that in mine then. Are you planning to include User:PelleSmith and any of the others mentioned at Requests_for_comment/Cirt? -- J N  466  14:33, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I will only provide evidence of the events I have first hand knowledge of. So THF and Njsustain.Griswaldo (talk) 15:53, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that makes sense. -- J N  466  19:28, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I trust you are aware of it—but just in case you're not, given that no notification has been sent out to the original RfAR parties, the case has opened. -- J  N  466  04:54, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

AN/I
Can we agree that the argument "my father was a red, therefore I'm not a homophobe" is without merit? If yes, I'd ask you to remove this comment, as I don't see how it does anything but derailing the discussion. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:21, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * We can indeed agree on that but I don't see how it is relevant since clearly he was not intending to prove anything of the sort with that comment. He was clearly saying, I'm not a homophobe and I've very liberal, in fact I've been liberal since birth. Clearly you can have leftist parents and end up a homophobe.  I think we all know that, but it's irrelevant. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 16:06, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Inre "santorum" consensus
FYI, I took the liberty of posting your suggested sourcing of "obscene" to Sourcing for "santorum" definition characterization and intend to open discussion shortly for consensus resolution on the "vulgar" issue. While I'm aware that most editor attention has moved to other associated venues, several editors (including myself), continue active progress towards consensus resolution. As breadth of editorial attention is paramount in forming a credible consensus, I'm hopeful that you (and all interested editors) can find a moment to return to the article talk and comment as the question responses develop. Thanks for your consideration. JakeInJoisey (talk) 17:28, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Re AC discussion
Only a minor point, but when you say "Cube lurker raised an issue in conversation with Roger that no one has addressed", please note that my first post after Break 2 squarely mentions this point. I am not asking you to modify your comment, in fact I'd just as soon you did not, but I wanted you to understand that you two are not alone in being concerned. My words have been deliberately measured, as I don't want to say something I regret, but I'd say I am as upset about this issue as anything that has ever happened on Wikipedia. I do realize there are some facts that I do not have, and that gives me some pause, but I haven't yet been able to imagine a scenario where it is simultaneously OK to allow an editor to RTV out of process, and enable that editor to return. I can imagine RL issues so severe that they would permit a special case for an RTV, but those exact circumstances would mean that the ArbCom should refuse to enable a return. Maybe there's some magical bit of circumstance that would allow both, but I don't see it.-- SPhilbrick  T  15:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * We are "not" alone in being concerned I assume you meant :). I'm glad to hear it and I apologize for not reading your input to the conversation more closely in that case.  I'm quite dismayed by the answers I'm hearing.  They suggest that something is not fully thought out.  Either that something is the manner in which they actually deal with these safety issues or it's the line of argument that at least one of the arbs has chosen to take to explain away a situation that doesn't look good.  Either way there are some serious holes in Roger's explanation and I think it would be beneficial to get to the bottom of them.Griswaldo (talk) 15:41, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Oops, corrected. I agree with everything else you said, something is amiss.-- SPhilbrick  T  17:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Pat Buchanan on terrorist attacks in Norway
With regard to inclusion of Pat Buchanan's comments on the terrorist attacks in Norway. This was moved to an article on the political positions of Pat Buchanan as a more appropriate place for the entry. However, inclusion of the comments should not be a BLP issue as there is no contention about whether the comments were made by the person in question. Nor should it be a problem of primary research given that referencing a person's public comments on their own political views does not constitute research, it is simply a reference to comments which are not in dispute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frq90554 (talk • contribs) 17:13, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Talkback
Cerejota (talk) 01:25, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manipulation of BLPs opened
An arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located at Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manipulation of BLPs. Evidence that you wish the Arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence sub-page, at Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manipulation of BLPs/Evidence. Please add your evidence by, 2011, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can contribute to the case workshop sub-page, Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manipulation of BLPs/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, <b style="color:navy;">NW</b> ( Talk ) 23:18, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Dear Mr./Ms. Griswaldo. I will probably be finishing the small remaining amount of work I'm doing on WP by the end of the calendar year. I suppose the case regarding Cirt will still not be anywhere near to being resolved by then. Frankly, it is comical how much is involved just to discuss the possibility of bringing sanctions against an administrator, while the same admin so quickly could drag my name through the mud simply because I had a completely legitimate and valid concern about the article he wrote to promote a business. Supreme Court cases are less complicated. The whole thing is truly unbelievable and has made an utter mockery of the procedures of WP. I appreciate the work you do here but I'm sure you will understand why I have little interest in contributing any significant amount of time to this project any longer. Good luck in your future endeavors. Sincerely, NJSustain. Njsustain (talk) 18:40, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Melanie Phillips
Hi. I thought I'd answer your question here, as I'd like to keep the discussion at the talk page focussed on the material itself, rather than the rights and wrongs of my attempt to steer a middle ground. The reasons I chose to tackle this in the way that I did were a) I thought that the prominence of the content, so early in the article, was disproportionate and a sign of recentism, and moving it much later would help to reduce its importance per our undue weight policy b) by removing the content from the section dealing with Phillips' political views, to a new "Influences" heading, I was removing the implication that Phillips' agreed with Breivik's approach, and was merely someone who influenced him. Hope that helps, but if you want more clarification, I'm happy to discuss further. It would be good to see some further explanation from you on why the content is inappropriate, so that other editors can then think about this - at the moment, it's difficult (for me at least) to see what the specific issue you have with it is. I'll continue to try & steer a neutral course on this, as best I can. SP-KP (talk) 17:12, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Can I apologise if you feel upset by the way in which I initiated my mediation attempt; I can see why you have interpreted my actions as disingenuous but I can assure you that they are not. If you are willing to continue to engage in the discussion on the talk page, I think you could make a really valuable contribution. I think that the reason that other editors have reinsrted the content is that they don't understand the issue you have with it: I think that if you are to stand a chance of convincing them of your position, some more detailed reasoning would be very helpful. SP-KP (talk) 17:31, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I've already explained on the talk page. Also please review the ongoing discussion at the BLP/N.Griswaldo (talk) 17:34, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Apologies, I missed that. I've reposted it to give it some more prominence. I've also posted a very brief summary of the BLP/N discussion (please do correct or expand it). For the moment I'm going to sit back and wait to see what those in favour of inserting the content say. I hope I can convince you that I will make an effective mediator as the discussion progresses. SP-KP (talk) 17:50, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You started off on the wrong foot. I suggest you try to mediate another dispute. There is no going back after the edit you made. I can see that you are trying very hard now to be a mediator but it doesn't work that way. As I said, I reject those efforts. Respectfully I suggest you try another dispute. That's not to say that you shouldn't contribute to this one. Please do, just please step out of this "mediator" role. Really, please.Griswaldo (talk) 18:02, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I didn't do stikethrough
...because I didn't want to give a 'leading' invitation or to be 'canvassing' editors, if what I originally wrote was canvassing. I thought to remove it and replace it would be the most appropriate thing. Hope it's okay. I kind of feel a bit like everyone at BLP has shared values about "privacy", which are all (the values, not the people) heterosexist and heteronormative for the most part, which makes it a bit of a privacy-diehard group. I thought I would try and invite LGBT people with a different perspective to perhaps enlighten editors who might think that being gay is a "sex life" thing and therefore is a "private" matter (even if the subject in question doesn't share that view).Zythe (talk) 20:13, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Heterosexist? There is as much of a spectrum within the gay community as there is among heterosexuals about how private or public someone's sexual orientation is. Sexual orientation is not a "sex life" thing, but I fail to see where anyone has equated the two. This actor appears to have rather clearly decided not to discuss his sexual orientation publicly anymore and there is no indication that his sexual orientation is an important part of what makes him notable. I understand the desire for minority groups to publicly identify famous members of said groups, but if those famous members don't want to do so themselves, and in fact openly court ambiguity in a manner to cast doubt upon whether they are members at all then we ought to respect that. We are not here to push any groups agenda. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 20:36, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Your comment
here. Yep. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:41, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

On connecting the accounts officially
As it happens, I was just looking at those comments. I agree that this would be one workable approach, and I've left a response.

I looked at the talk page on Prioryman's evidence. It does look like he toned down the speculation, but I could not determine whether this is satisfactorily resolved. I'm also aware of the fact that I've already annoyed our good clerk with my dithering about which case Prioryman evidence belongs to, and I don't want to go over his head any more for a while. Cool Hand Luke 14:05, 19 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Prioryman removed most of those comments on his own. Only one remains but it isn't worth haggling over. As to your other comments I've left you more responses. I'm quite frustrated with the lack of parity here. You all have been very quick to jump on people on one side of this case and very slow to do so on the other. My reactions to Prioryman are a result of his behavior. No authority figure jumped in to tell him to keep it down when he was disparaging people as witch-hunters and lynch mobs (and Jayen specifically as having "deliberately" misrepresented information), but now when someone expresses outrage that outrage is apparently off limits. One of your fellow arbs went as far, in fact, as to describe Prioryman's comments at the RfC as moderate until I posted exact quotes back to him, and he basically just said ... "oh oops" -- see here. Nothing makes my blood boil more than the feeling of being treated unfairly. I understand that I should not let it get the best of me, and I'll try harder. But that's how it is.Griswaldo (talk) 14:45, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manipulation of BLPs closed
An arbitration case regarding of Manipulation BLPs has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following is a summary of the remedies enacted:
 * 1) Editors who edit biographies of living persons and other articles referring to living persons are reminded that all editing of these articles must comply with the biographies of living persons policy and with the principles set forth in this decision;
 * 2) Administrators and other experienced editors are urged to take a proactive approach in addressing violations and alleged violations of the BLP policy, and to watchlist the BLP noticeboard and participate in discussing and resolving issues raised on that noticeboard;
 * 3) To the extent that parties to this case have been engaged in protracted disputes and quarrels with other parties, the feuding parties are urged to avoid any unnecessary interactions with each other, except to the extent necessary for legitimate purposes such as dispute resolution;
 * 4) If disputes concerning editing of biographical articles by parties to this case persist, appropriate dispute resolution methods should be pursued. To the extent possible, such dispute resolution should be led and addressed by editors who have not previously been involved in the disputes. If a specific serious dispute persists and other means of dispute resolution do not resolve them, a new and specifically focused request for arbitration may be filed not less than 30 days from the date of this decision.

For the Arbitration Committee, Alexandr Dmitri (talk) 15:21, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Waving to Griswaldo
I just wanted to bring my concern to ANI, where I have very little experience. Anyway, I remember arguing with you over diaspora (aargh, hope I never hear that word again) and I remember liking and admiring you even though we were on opposite sides of the question. Hope all is well with you.  Sharktopus  <sup style="color:black;">talk 03:18, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Sharktapus. I hope you don't take my terse tone at AN/I personally, I just don't think its a matter for AN/I. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 03:25, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't take it personally, and you may well be right. Nothing seems likely to come of it except that people who like MF are now shooting at me. I honestly respect the guy, it is just that he is being disruptive (in my opinion) of a process I care about. Imagine that you were working on improving some project and fully one out of 5 comments there was a single guy saying "you guys are full of shit" and "this project is worthless" and "why is everybody here so mean to me and resisting my great ideas." Even if that single guy were Albert Einstein, Mother Teresa, and Christina Aguilera in one lovely package, you would be wishing to get back to work without all that interruption.   Sharktopus  <sup style="color:black;">talk  03:39, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Thanks. You were not treated fairly during the Daryl Wine Bar episode. Someone needed to say something and I'm glad I did then and continued to do so now. I understand quite well that no community is without its power imbalances, but it still angers me when those imbalances are exploited for personal gain. I hope very much that this will now happen less, even if only by the minutest fraction. Take care.Griswaldo (talk) 12:38, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

You are invited to strike your comment
You are invited to strike your comment at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Judaism. Debresser (talk) 13:24, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the invitation but I cannot accept. I've offered you a different invitation on that page, where I prefer you leave the conversation. I have it watchlisted. Thanks.Griswaldo (talk) 13:48, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Nice
I liked this very much. Thank you. --John (talk) 23:30, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the encouragement. I hope it works. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 23:34, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I commented further, partly in light of your comments at AN/I so thank you again for the thought you brought to this. --John (talk) 07:12, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Griswaldo - thanks you also for removing me as the third person added to the topic ban discussion at WP:ANI after some comments had been made, regards. - Off2riorob (talk) 07:20, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * No problem. It made no sense! Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 11:13, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Talkback
Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 18:18, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Re: Do not delete the comments of others
{{Talkback|FleetCommand|Do not delete the comments of others|ts=12:43, 21 September 2011 (UTC)}

Talk: militant atheism, single-purpose account
Saw your comment there - that's definitely fishy. I wonder if the user will turn out to be a sockpuppet or a meatpuppet. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 16:19, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * This is very unlikely a true newbie. I'd hedge towards sock puppet, unless they know another user intimately enough to have gotten directions on where to find the conversation and how to register an account, and all that. But is there enough evidence to ask legitimately for an SPI. I don't think so, so I don't know if we are ever going to find out.Griswaldo (talk) 16:26, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, one needs to have a specific sockmaster in mind. It's a problem that, as I recall, we discussed finding stricter measures against in the I/P topic area, but nothing came of it. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 16:53, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm a parent
I'm the parent of a teenaged girl, as it happens. So? Don't make assumptions based on demographics. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  20:47, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm unsure what you mean by that exactly. Can you explain which assumptions based on demographics you wish that I don't make? I'm being earnest here, and instead of heading down the wrong road I'd like to know more about what you mean before answering. Thanks.Griswaldo (talk) 21:00, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I read what you and others have posted as saying, "If we had actual parents of teenagers active in the Wikipedia community, nobody would doubt that we should block that 13-year-old from certain topics." [This is of course assuming he actually exists, rather than being a troll or a Larry Sanger trojan-horse.] Being the parent of a teenager, like being a Christian or a feminist, does not automatically turn one into a prude or a censor. My demographics do not shape my opinions. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  21:06, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, no where did I say that all parents would agree with that POV. In fact I have clarified that already at least more than once. I do think that parents, and indeed adults, are more likely to share that view. I'm glad to see that you are presenting an example of a parent who does not. But keep in mind that this is not about censorship or being a prude. I would suggest reading Ian Thompson's clarification a bit further down that talk page, because there are a heaping ton of mischaracterizations floating around. One clarification of my perspective, that I will repeat to you here, is that I most certainly am not worried about children viewing explicit content. If they want to do that it's all over the internet. It has nothing to do with viewing content or censorship of content. It has to do with social engagement. Wikipedia is a social media site as much as it is an encyclopedia project, in that it has a community and many subgroups within it, and people interact within these groups. Witness what we are doing right now. This whole thing has to do with limiting the manner in which minors engage in the site, and it is for practical not puritanical reasons. Specifically that means not having children declare their age and then engage with other people, possibly adults, around the topic of pornography. You may still disagree with this perspective, of course, but at least then you are disagreeing with what I've been saying and not something else.Griswaldo (talk) 21:20, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Ken keisel talkpage access
I figure if you and I actually agree on something, it's probably a safe bet.-- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:08, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * True enough. I really wanted to give him a fair shake, but like I've been saying he's just digging a deeper and deeper grave. I assume that since he's indef blocked (as opposed to community banned) he can appeal to an administrator, or even to you directly, should he come to his senses? Not sure if that will happen, and as I said on the talk page I'm not wasting any more of mine time trying to convince him to do so. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 20:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, he can do that - emailing unblock-l is probably his best bet, rather than pinging random admins offline. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:07, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Insult
All Italian children attend school daily (it's obligatory). They are not reared to hunt in marrauding packs to pickpocket American tourists - not even the big fat ugly ones in ridiculous baseball caps with nylon bumbags. If you don't accept that then stay in America! In fact, I wish the big fat ugly ones in ridiculous baseball caps with nylon bumbags would too and stop spoiling the Italian landscape. Giacomo Returned 18:36, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Absurd and immensely ironic given what you were reacting to in the first place. You know you'd fit right in here from the sound of it. In fact I thought "stay in your own country" was a phrase copyrighted by the American right-wing. I guess it isn't an international copyright. By the way I agree that what Wikid said was provocative and down right stupid in fact. I just think this "what did you say about my mother(land)" posturing is equally stupid. Do they teach all Italian children to be this proud of their homeland on a daily basis, because you know they do that here ... Griswaldo (talk) 19:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Dulcis amor patriae.--Scott Mac 15:11, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Ut sementem feceris, ita metes.Griswaldo (talk) 13:30, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I stumbled on this accidentally but I am going to buy into it, because from an art historian's point of view, I just happen to be an expert on the subject of big fat American tourists with nylon bumbags.
 * I like American tourists. I even love American tourists.
 * They wear puffy jackets that are orange and pink and sky blue so you don't loose them in the crowds.
 * They clean their teeth and use breath freshening chewing gum.
 * They abide by the rules, and refrain from touching the marble statues and tapestries, when requested.
 * They take off their baseball caps in church.
 * When you recount a touching narrative they say "Oh, that is soo beautiful!".
 * They keep their children under control and encourage them to listen and ask questions.
 * They don't stand outside a cultural edifice smoking and stubbing out their cigarettes on the marble.
 * They never forget to say "Thank you!".
 * The vast majority are not only appreciative but en-thew-zee-astic!
 * Would one prefer a to conduct a touring party of Americans around the Accademia or a touring party of elegant Italians with their highly superior manners around the National Gallery?
 * ...... think about it.......
 * Amandajm (talk) 02:50, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Aniconism
So tag it. Unreferenced, some of it, OR, no. Johnbod (talk) 21:21, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I did tag it. The hadith section is by definition OR, and I tagged it appropriately. You can relax though since clearly you did not write most of the entry as you claimed. Indeed you appear not to have written any of the problem sections. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 21:27, 5 November 2011 (UTC)


 * "I don't read, write, or understand Farsi so it's rather doubtful that I know anything about what is on their Wiki, ..." Sorry, I assumed you had been following the original debate, where this has been covered. Obviously no linguistic skills are needed for this point - the great advantage of images....  Johnbod (talk) 22:13, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That makes little sense to me. What original debate and what does it have to do with what has transpired on the Farsi Wiki, which no matter what I still cannot understand without the linguistic skills. And yes, I refuse to comment on the situation there based on what you or anyone else has written about it in English. So what's your point? My point is that I do not know why the images are there, if there is significant opposition to them and if so by whom, and similarly who wants them to be included, etc. etc. I can't know those things if I can't understand the discussions about them. Just seeing images is meaningless here, but the suggestion that it's enough to see the images is very telling if you ask me, regarding your perspective which can't see the overall tradition of knowledge about Muhammad for the images. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 22:20, 5 November 2011 (UTC)


 * You don't think Iranians might be just a little bit annoyed to hear that images of Muhammad, such as can be easily bought in Iran, are "fringe" and put them "outside the mainstream" of Islam? Really? Cheers yourself. Johnbod (talk) 22:18, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well if that was your point you failed to make it on Jimbo's talk page. In fact I had no idea you were saying that I was offending Iranian Muslims in any way. Modern day Iranians are quite nationalistic when it comes to Persian culture. Of course, I have no idea if what you say is true, but can imagine that images which are part of their cultural heritage would be readily available in the marketplace. Pray tell me, since you seem to have first hand knowledge of this, how common is it for Iranian Muslims to actually buy these images and to hang them up in their own homes, and what do they say when you ask them what the image means to them? Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 22:25, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And for the record my position vis-a-vis offense has always been that there are and have always been Muslims who are not offended by these images. That Iranians, and Iranian Muslims, are a particular example of a group that isn't offended does not in any way counter anything I've said. You have to understand, however, that not being offended is not the same as embracing in practice. It is the latter issue that is central to my arguments. And on that issue, the fact that tourist bazaars in Iran have merchants selling these images would make sense in a culture that is relaxed on the issue and amongst people who are not offended, but it does not in any way prove that these people are embracing the images in practice. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 22:33, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Such images are certainly not intended for tourists, other than Muslim ones. This museum feature is a good balanced introduction to modern popular iconography - see the home page and the Muhammad one. You can buy your posters at here for example - Oleg Grabar wrote somewhere on the wholly modern origin of this image and story. There are far more such popular images of Ali & Husssein of course, and visually they can be hard to tell apart, except the adult Muhammad normally holds a Quran. pages 3-4 here and 249-252 are the sort of thing you want. There are other sources. Johnbod (talk) 14:48, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Such images are certainly not intended for tourists, other than Muslim ones. And on what ground do you make that claim? I asked you if Muslims actually buy these images and more importantly if they use them and if so how. Can you tackle that question, and do mind telling me what you base that answer on? You'll have to forgive me but my own methodological background, within the study of religion, is from the social sciences. The existence of cultural artifacts, in and of themselves, doesn't really tell us much of anything about how those artifacts fit within larger traditions of practice. Your links are just more of the same in that regard. No one disputes the existence of these artifacts. Can we move on from that point now, because you've provided no evidence of the use of the artifacts, or of attitudes towards them? Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 14:57, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You've obviously not read them at all, or seen who their authors are. Johnbod (talk) 15:22, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The first two links do not answer my questions about type of use or prominence thereof and admittedly I missed that last link, which looks interesting. Let me have a read.Griswaldo (talk) 15:59, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The third link is interesting because it discusses modern devotional practices in Iran which are rich in visual artifacts, including figural images. However it appears that images of Muhammad play an extremely minor role in this tradition. Ali and Karbala are the focus, which isn't at all surprising. Yes the pages you linked mention Muhammad a few times, but never in a manner that gives a sense of how often he is depicted or how images of Muhammad become important in practice. Later sections of the book never focus on those images, and rarely ever mention them again. Muhammad does come up in descriptions of ritual practice, but usually in verbal enactment not in visual imagery. I'm happy to admit that I was not aware of this devotional practice, and that it does show a contemporary Iranian Shia practice that is clearly not aniconic. I'm extremely hesitant however, from what I've been able to browse in this book, to say that it supports the notion of a ubiquitous visual imagery of Muhammad among Iranian Muslims. It doesn't do that. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 16:13, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Genesis creation narrative
Might you be able to direct me to the most succinct statement or rationale for the current naming in the talk page archives? Thanks. Jesanj (talk) 14:22, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Leeming
Maybe I better put my reasons for feeling so dubious about Leeming on the article talk page, since other editors need to be included in any discussions. But the essence is this: Leeming says things about the origins of the Pentateuch, and presents them as current scholarship, when in fact they're not. I know they're not and I can demonstrate; I astonished that Leeming apparently doesn't know. To me it cats his reliability in doubt. I know that our article quotes him in relation to something which has nothing to do with Pentateuchal origins, but as that quote is redundant (there are two other scholars saying the same thing) I suggest we drop him. PiCo (talk) 02:34, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * PiCo why are you looking at a comp lit/world mythology scholar for up to date theories about the origins of the Pentateuch? I would say he's not reliable for that kind of information, but that's not all that is covered in the entry. The world mythology perspective is just as legitimate as biblical studies, but in its own context. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 02:40, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I see your point, but his ignorance about Pentateuchal origins and Israelite history makes me very uneasy. PiCo (talk) 03:10, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Controversial image use
Hi Griswaldo. I'm not exactly sure where you stand but, if you think there is a problem with the way we presently handle controversial images, would you mind throwing your 2 cents in here? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:00, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Atheism - Eurobarometer Poll 2005
Griswaldo, you appear to be struggling to understand the Eurobarometer Poll. I guess you're a young Christian man in your early 20s and keen to learn. Atheism is no belief in god or the belief in no god. In the Eurobarometer Poll, I will use the UK as an example.

Q2 Which of these statements comes closest to your beliefs? 38% replied "I believe there is a god" and 2% didn't answer.

That leaves 60% atheists in all its forms: Atheists that declared "I believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" (40%) and atheists that declared "I don’t believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force" (20%).

User:LeeMcLoughlin1975 (talk) 00:00, 13 April 2012 (GMT)


 * Lee I'm neither a Christian nor in my 20s, but the condescension is duly noted. There is not a single definition of atheism I'm aware of that includes belief in "some sort of spirit or life force." That you're including those people in the figure of atheists is plain and simply absurd and not backed by the Eurobarometer survey or by any reliable source.Griswaldo (talk) 22:50, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I told you the definition of 'atheist'/'atheism' and it's outlined at the top of the atheism article. Persons that declare "I believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" can be atheists so long as they believe there are no gods or have no belief in gods.

And hey, it takes at least two to edit war!

User:LeeMcLoughlin1975 (talk) 11:24, 13 April 2012 (GMT)

I think you might need to archive some of this
Griswaldo, you might want to consider archiving some of the real old stuff as your talk page is starting to get a little unwieldy.--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:25, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Comments from you about Brendon
Please avoid addressing Brendon when discussing the RFC. You should always focus on the content, and not the editor. Repeated focus on editors who has asked you to stop is harassment. You must respect other human and stop when they express a wish to stop continue a personal conversation with you. If you believe Brendon is a sock puppet, harassment on his talk page or on article/talk/rfc pages will only end up getting yourself banned.

The correct way to handle suspicions of sock puppetry can be found at Sock puppetry. Belorn (talk) 14:41, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Answered on your talk page. Going to people directly to discuss issues you have with them is not harassment. Sorry, it normal social behavior and it should be encouraged always as a precondition to seeking third party institutional solutions to interpersonal problems.Griswaldo (talk) 15:00, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * You can not choose to disregard a wish to be left alone because "you think its for his own good". Its not normal social behavior, its bullying and harassment. Either drop it, or follow correct method. Belorn (talk) 15:14, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * You can choose to do whatever you want Belorn, but you posted this before any such wish was communicated by him to me. My answer to you was based on that fact. You seemed to be criticizing my even going to his talk page to begin with. Since then I just noticed he asked me to stop in a bracketed out (hence not visible) piece of text. Not exactly the best way to get the point across. That said, I'm not going to drop this just because he went crying to you for help. He's clearly a veteran user up to no good. Now I've heard your perspective. Unless you have something new to say I suggest you leave it alone. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 15:20, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * "I'm not going to drop this just because he went crying to you for help." — clarification - I didn't go crying to anybody for help. You want me to unhide the "leave me alone" comment? I thought it might be impolite. But, do you want me to? Brendon is   here  15:53, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * If you perceived that I was criticizing you for going to his talk page to address him directly, I am sorry. No, this was not my intent. I was criticizing the overwhelming comments direct at users on the RFC and the RFC talk page. I have posted, I think 4 to 5 times to inform people to stop focusing on the editor, and keep their focus on the content. There was even a whole subjection *dedicated* at Brendon on the RFC. If your comments on the RFC did never include the words "you" or "Brendon" and was always focus on the content and never the editors, then I'm sorry if my critique was wrongly directed at you. Belorn (talk) 15:58, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * That street goes both ways I'm afraid. There is clearly a reason why other editors have focused on Brendon, and it's because he focuses on them. If you really want to help someone help him to stop making uncivil comments and assuming bad faith of others. Well before I approached him on his talk page he did this to me, and I've looked over his comments and there is more of the same to others. He is also particular aggressive in his comments against Islam and Muslims. Not biggoted, I'm not saying that, but aggressive. Hearing you say that people have focused on him comes as zero surprise to me.Griswaldo (talk) 16:04, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * "There is clearly a reason why other editors have focused on Brendon, and it's because he focuses on them." - I am the one who willingly wanted to opt out of discussions imbued with personal comments and several times just "focused on content". I paid heed to the advice of User:New questions. Yet, ignoring all that, in your view I deserve to be assailed with various jibes? While on the same discussion belorn was called a "Moron" (I highlighted it also) which you didn't bother to reply to. Why this partiality?
 * I've deposited my clarification most of the times to anybody who thinks I'm disrespecting him/her. Albeit, I don't remember wittingly insulting someone. Brendon is   here  16:28, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Well you said, "[y]ou're trying to misguide people again by muddying the issue," to me and then denied that this meant assuming bad faith, and stuck to it even after I clarified. On the talk page you said "[w]hat's your intent behind bringing this nonsensical drivel into the current discussion?" to Veritycheck and when I asked you to civil you made excuses ... not apologies ... and no edits to your incivility. Here are some choice phrases from you during the RfC that are clearly uncivil (emphasis yours and there are more I haven't pasted here):
 * "Even the proposal of such an action seems absolutely disgusting."
 * "Wikipedia must not mollycoddle pander to the ever-increasing, unreasonable and incessant demands of any religion (no matter how much is its penchant for gratuitous communal violence)."
 * "If — heaven forbid — any restriction is placed on the free use of any Image solely based on the fear of upsetting some over-sensitive lunatics, it will contravene not only WP:NOTCENSORED, but also other policies namely WP:NPOV,WP:PROFANE, etc"
 * And then there are the WP:BATTLEGROUND comments you keep making that up the heat on the idea that this issues is somehow one of Muslims trying to win a cultural war against the encyclopedia. These comments are more and less civil, but their main problem is BATTLEGROUND.
 * "And any preferential treatment to Muhammad's image or any other Image of religious significance, will intrinsically reek of downright inequality."
 * "Wikipedia is not an Islamic proselytising website."
 * "FYI, 'Because Quran/Muhammad said so' is not a credible rationale. I repeat, wikipedia, as a website, doesn't necessarily give credence to the tenets of Islam."
 * Now I've yet to come across any apologies for any of the above comments (the uncivil ones or the battleground ones), nor any sense that you realize that this is problematic.Griswaldo (talk) 16:47, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

While I don't consider many of them to be personal attacks. I've clarified my positions several times. Click here to see what I mean. You're misrepresenting my positions and misinterpreting my statements. Quoting me out of context. ""[y]ou're trying to misguide people again by muddying the issue," to me and then denied that this meant assuming bad faith" —— I didn't exactly deny or admit anything. I simply tried to clarify what I meant that's all. I wrote, "But from your excessively captious attitude, false-reasoning and chicaneries, I found it hard to come to any other conclusion. However, I didn't mean that you're knowingly trying to misguide people. I meant you are muddying the water and thus people can be misguided because of you (stop picking on phraseology). It did not seem as serious an accusation to me (also, it had nothing to do with good or bad faith)!" "[w]hat's your intent behind bringing this nonsensical drivel into the current discussion?" — This is the talk-page where I wrote all that and should give others a clear idea about what made me say that. Why don't you quote me in proper context? The thing is you've been to that page and you probably are aware of my refutations, yet chose to paste these lines here. I am sorry if any of my comments hurt you personally. Brendon is  here  16:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You're assuming bad faith again. I have not read the talk page. And before you say that I'm also assuming bad faith of you, lets be clear. I am obviously accusing you of bad faith, because you're not acting in good faith. See below.Griswaldo (talk) 16:58, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You've been to this page Brendon is   here  17:01, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed. But I haven't read the entirety of it, and I never read the section you referred to.Griswaldo (talk) 17:19, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

You ask why I'm being partial? At first it was simply because I noticed your behavior and then because you turned it to me. But now I'm particularly peeved because you're clearly not who you say you are, which means you can act like this to your hearts content with no repercussions. Should you go over the top and get punished ... new account coming your way. You're quite clearly trolling. I do not doubt you believe in your side of the argument, but that you are also a veteran user who is trolling the opposition with a new account has become exceedingly clear from your behavior as well. Just stop it. Go away and come back with an honest account.Griswaldo (talk) 16:51, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * If that's what you are predisposed to believe, then what can I say. I don't know what you want and why. I tried to be friendly with you. I put in efforts which you couldn't care less about. Brendon is   here  17:01, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I've been clear in what I'd like. For you to stop editing in this way. You're not a new user but pretending to be one, and you're editing in a manner that resembles trolling, complete with BATTLEGROUND remarks and incivility. STOP DOING THAT. Can I get clearer? How about this. If you're a community banned user then disappear completely. If you are a topic banned editor then please stop editing the topics you are banned from with a second account. If you have another legitimate account then please stick to using that one. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 17:22, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I can't decide if the new users at that RfC are deliberately trolling or really that stupid. Either way, they're purely disruptive and their foolish shallow blather has effectively shut out any rational discussion. What other project would allow a bunch of unknown "newbies" to rush into an important discussion and shut it down like that? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:10, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I wish stupid was right, but I'm convinced that we have been trolled by someone with an agenda. Someone reasonably clever in fact. Of course this one editor was not alone, but they managed to disrupt the discussion while also praying upon the baser, emotional end of the spectrum. He repeatedly turned the discourse back to the notion that tempering our use of figurative images was somehow tantamount to bowing down to Muslim proselytizing. In other words letting Islam dictate how we run our encyclopedia. I don't know where you are located Anthony, but here in the States that's a very powerful card to play, even among people who are usually more rational than that.Griswaldo (talk) 02:32, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree... 100%. I would support a block/investigation/etc of Brendon.  I've never seen a "newbie" with this much knowledge and this annoying in a long time.--- Balloonman  Poppa Balloon 02:20, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think you'll find that they will disappear soon after the decision comes down. If we knew who was behind the account I would support a community ban (unless, of course that's already the case).Griswaldo (talk) 02:32, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm actually preparing a case right now. Did you realize that he violated WP:CANVASS at LEAST 16 times.  I've fouund 16 cases where he's gone to somebody's page asking for them to chime in on a discussion because I really need your feedback.--- Balloonman ' Poppa Balloon 03:13, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I did but at that point I was exasperated. Besides if I mentioned it somewhere 3 other relative newbies would show up to tell me to back off Brendon in some way :). I'm right behind you if you file something though. ANI? Or SPI?Griswaldo (talk) 03:25, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that is the question... ANI or SPI??? There are reasons to do either one. Here is the draft of what I've found.  One thing that I've found interesting is that the people who defended him, are the one's he's canvassed the most.--- Balloonman  Poppa Balloon 03:35, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think an SPI would be interesting—there are three "new" editors in that discussion with an impressively precocious understanding of the norms and policy here. But if I'm the only one interested, I won't ask for one. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 12:00, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Who are the others? I think one of the problems with SPI is that it isn't a fishing expedition. So we have to have users to compare. Would the suggestion be to compare all three of those to each other? I mean I'm all for settling this issue and rooting out the socks ... clearly ... but how can that be actualized?Griswaldo (talk) 12:03, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, just Brendon and New questions, both may be socks of a longer term editor.
 * Brendon arrived flashing fancy fonts and very in-your face with a comfortable grasp of the norms here. To me, the fancy fonts read like a disguise. It's a put-on. Trying to distance himself from the master. Don't know about New questions. It's the timing, the paying each other complements, the smell.
 * The master could be someone engaged in the Mohammad images debate, I have some suspicions, or not, or they may be site banned. I don't know what evidence SPI requires, but I'd be curious to know, for starters, whether Brendon and New questions are related, to see if that's the game being played here. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:46, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * He's totally trolling on the RfC talk page now. Ugh. I told that editor whose late vote I reverted that he could be confident his views will be taken into account by the closers on the talk page. But if Brendon keeps filling that page with foolish waffle, I wouldn't blame them for not bothering with the talk page. There are some gems in there. I've pasted a couple onto my user page. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:59, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Issue with Brendon (for Balloonman too)
I've been following the talk page trail with Brendon and noticed the Wiki Etiquette thing you've been drawn into - try not to be, it looks like a wind-up to me. I've had plenty of experience with Brendon-types and sock puppets years ago. I got to a point where I just let some of them go (after a break it didn't seem as worthwhile), but in this guys case it could be worth going for. Bring in people like belorn (use the sudden appearance/friendliness/argument factor), and don't worry about hurt feelings. If you have a case you have a case, and if you are wrong you are wrong. You can always apologise and Wikipedia is an adult-enough work place - it's not for super-sensitive pansies (which seems to be the appearance they are both giving - there is of course a good reason for this if they are socks).

So if it does need doing, my advise is to do it now while it means something, and it doesn't become a seasoned account (of course it might be abandoned too - but who knows what a checkuser might find?). I don't think you need to find the top account, though I imagine it may feature heavily in the pre-Rfc discussion, or at least on the two related Mohammad pages. There is always a chance that his childish style on the Rfc is just a disruption tactic and he's not as daft as he looks. Keeping Islam in check means a lot to some people.

PS. Your talk page is as long as mine, so I can't really talk I know, but my laptop struggles with lots of text - which is one of the reasons I haven't sorted it yet! Matt Lewis (talk) 21:13, 21 April 2012 (UTC)


 * This guy is very clearly a troll. What gets me the most is that people who agree with his POV, who are sensible enough to know what is going on, say nothing. The biggest lesson here is that if anyone spots a troll arguing their side of the debate the right thing to do is to step in. I forgot how unbelievably political this place is and how concerned everyone is with winning. Time to leave again. Initially I left because my wife and I had a son 5 months ago but you know what? I've been much better off in the last 5 months without this place. Good luck with this troll and with all the rest.Griswaldo (talk) 14:35, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * You've made a good point about the difficulties in position-opposers raising complaints, and how position-agreers could do it so much better (but tend to look away instead). I'm afraid Wikipedia is rather portrayed as an arena - look at universal terms like 'edit war'. I've never appreciated any of it, and at times it seems to even fail its own AGF rules (if perhaps alluding to underlying truths too). How many auto-labelled 'edit wars' on Wikipedia are acually just part of a necessary edit shuffle that simply occurs at times, and are sometimes even completely benign?


 * You never know, something good might come out of this one though (the rfc I mean).


 * Please, leave if you really want to leave, but if it's just about Brendon you could always do the 'Wikibreak' thing, and even break it as you please. People like us don't have an obligation here (or to here I should say - correcting damaging issues is more of a universal dilema to some).


 * Btw, if you like I'll standard-archive for you when I get around to mine. I understand if you want to keep it all up though - very little gets fully settled on Wikipedia. Matt Lewis (talk) 15:10, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm too lazy to archive myself but you have my every permission and gratitude if you want to set up for me :). It's not about Brandon, it's about this place. It steals my mental energies and makes me unhappy. Brandon is just a reminder of why. In fact I should thank Brandon for the reminder ... and I'm not kidding. Good luck.Griswaldo (talk) 15:21, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I hope you change your mind sometime, Griswaldo. You're rational and compassionate, and this place needs more Griswaldos not less; but I understand your frustration. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 08:06, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps but this Griswaldo is going to look after his sanity for now. Thanks for the words though.

I've had a good look at the contribution histories of Brendon, Belorn and New questions and can't see anything connecting them. I now think Brendon is the reincarnation of an editor that appeared out of the blue last September, claiming to have edited for some time as an IP (as an explanation for his intimate familiarity with the project), was heavily involved opposite me in a couple of controversial issues including Muhammad images, and flounced off on 16 March, returning on 23 March to say he's decided not waste his time on the Muhammad images issue anymore, or with Wikipedia for that matter. Brendon111 was created on 20 March. He genuinely holds the views he's pushing on the RfC.

I'm convinced enough of this to no longer be concerned about the Brendon situation. If I'm right, he can be a pain in the ass to deal with on ideological issues but is a force for good overall. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:12, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * He may genuinely hold those views, but his behavior is quite consciously disruptive. The other editor of whom you speak could also, of course, have been a sock of a currently topic banned or community banned editor ... or just a current editor who doesn't want to behave in this way with his regular account. Anyway not worth the time.Griswaldo (talk) 11:21, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * If he really is an old hand (esp of a different nature), the way he has played his Brendon account is indefensible. He's consciously intended to screw with consensus by playing a naive ass. All that repetitive bluster combined with faux-offendedness just wastes people time, demoralises people, and generally puts people off the subject. The page became huge as well. And if he is an old hand, all that was by intention of course. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:52, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. I've just re-read all his "contributions" to that debate and my confidence level has dropped to cautious suspicion. I don't think ASCII has the malevolence required to perpetrate that. So, I don't know where, if anywhere, to go with this now. I've asked at Wikipedia_talk:Sock_puppetry. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 06:33, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * —I'm going to help you with the archiving, I think I owe you this much. I also hope you don't mind, Griswaldo. Brendon is  here  19:32, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't do that Brendon. The invitation was extended to Matt, not you. Leave his page alone. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 06:24, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh for goodness's sake shut up, Anthony. What? Helping someone with archiving is a crime now? Stop being so narrow. I'm trying to help him. I have all the good intentions behind my efforts to help him archive this page. Besides, this is not your page. Wikipedia is a collaborative process. There should not be any sectarianism. As per WP:OWN, all Wikipedia content (wikipedia content includes articles, categories, templates, and others) is open to being edited collaboratively. “The invitation was extended to Matt” - so what? The request was presented, the invitation was extended and that's sufficient. Like I said, there should not be any discrimination. If Matt could help him with something, then I could too. It's not like I'm untouchable or something. This whole section, just like the one on RfC/Muhammad image talk page was dedicated to denigrating and assailing me with bad-faith allegations, and you're telling me, I can't do anything to prove that I'm not who you think I am? This is ludicrous. I want to help him with archiving. This page is 250,000+ in size. And, I'm not the only one who thinks this needs to be archived immediately. Why can't I do that myself, especially since Griswaldo has made it clear that he is too lazy to do that? So Anthony, you need to step aside and mind your own business if you're not going to help Griswaldo. I owe him this much. Brendon is  here  08:34, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh for goodness's sake shut up, Anthony. What? Helping someone with archiving is a crime now? Stop being so narrow. I'm trying to help him. I have all the good intentions behind my efforts to help him archive this page. Besides, this is not your page. Wikipedia is a collaborative process. There should not be any sectarianism. As per WP:OWN, all Wikipedia content (wikipedia content includes articles, categories, templates, and others) is open to being edited collaboratively. “The invitation was extended to Matt” - so what? The request was presented, the invitation was extended and that's sufficient. Like I said, there should not be any discrimination. If Matt could help him with something, then I could too. It's not like I'm untouchable or something. This whole section, just like the one on RfC/Muhammad image talk page was dedicated to denigrating and assailing me with bad-faith allegations, and you're telling me, I can't do anything to prove that I'm not who you think I am? This is ludicrous. I want to help him with archiving. This page is 250,000+ in size. And, I'm not the only one who thinks this needs to be archived immediately. Why can't I do that myself, especially since Griswaldo has made it clear that he is too lazy to do that? So Anthony, you need to step aside and mind your own business if you're not going to help Griswaldo. I owe him this much. Brendon is  here  08:34, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Your perspective woud be of value
Hi there. I would appreciate it if you could visit Talk:Muhammad. The article, Muhammad, has changed in a significant way since it originally passed WP:GA several years ago. It now states in the opening paragraph that Mohammad is the Founder of Islam and has relegated to a note at the end of the article that Muslims, themselves don't believe this. I have started a discussion on the talk page concerning this and would value your input. Thanks so much. Veritycheck (talk)Veritycheck (talk) 00:38, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

The Olive Branch: A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #1)
Welcome to the first edition of The Olive Branch. This will be a place to semi-regularly update editors active in dispute resolution (DR) about some of the most important issues, advances, and challenges in the area. You were delivered this update because you are active in DR, but if you would prefer not to receive any future mailing, just add your name to this page. In this issue: Read the entire first edition of The Olive Branch -->
 * Background: A brief overview of the DR ecosystem.
 * Research: The most recent DR data
 * Survey results: Highlights from Steven Zhang's April 2012 survey
 * Activity analysis: Where DR happened, broken down by the top DR forums
 * DR Noticeboard comparison: How the newest DR forum has progressed between May and August
 * Discussion update: Checking up on the Wikiquette Assistance close debate
 * Proposal: It's time to close the Geopolitical, ethnic, and religious conflicts noticeboard. Agree or disagree?

--The Olive Branch 19:05, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Howdy
I hope you're feeling better. In case you're interested, I thought I'd point you to this. It's wiki-related, but should involve a lot less drama. We'll be needing people who want to inspire, teach or help experts to write WP:MEDRS-compliant articles. It could be fun and satisfying. If you put your user name here, I'll contact you as we approach various milestones, like opening the official membership list. You're missed. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:52, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Clarification motion
A case (Longevity) in which you were involved has been modified by which changed the wording  of the discretionary sanctions section to clarify that the scope applies to pages, not just articles. For the arbitration committee -- S Philbrick (Talk)  15:52, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:16, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

List of atheists, agnostics and other nontheists listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect List of atheists, agnostics and other nontheists. Since you had some involvement with the List of atheists, agnostics and other nontheists redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Steel1943 (talk) 17:16, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

List of atheists, agnostics and other nontheists (science and technology) listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect List of atheists, agnostics and other nontheists (science and technology). Since you had some involvement with the List of atheists, agnostics and other nontheists (science and technology) redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Steel1943 (talk) 17:17, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

List of atheists, agnostics and other nontheists (authors) listed at Redirects for discussion
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"List of atheists, agnostics and other nontheists" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_atheists,_agnostics_and_other_nontheists&redirect=no List of atheists, agnostics and other nontheists] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 20:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC)