User talk:Grumpyxch

Southend GER branch
Thanks for your interest on the LTSR page.

The Southend branch was opened form Sheffield to Wickford in 1888 and extended to Shenfield (and Southminster) in 1889. I have amended the entry to explain this more clearly. --Davidvaughanwells (talk) 19:39, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

My pleasure. Is there a way we could chat, possibly by email as I'm new at editing Wikipedia, and I have a few questions about LT&SR, Eastern Counties Railway and London & Blackwall Railway?Grumpyxch (talk) 21:00, 24 March 2021 (UTC)


 * You can post your questions here and I will do my best to answer them - the history of the LTSR and Fenchurch Street is a lot more complex than most people think. I have a copy of the LTS Line in my sandbox and undertaking a comprehensive re-write of the article to incorporate MR/LMS/Eraly BR History.--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 09:05, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Sorry. Because of my ignorance, I wasn't sure that my reply (see above) had got to you so I found a way of emailing you. I hope that was okay. I apologise if it isn't. If you see my email, you will see that my questions are quite complicated. I will stop using the email route if you prefer - just let me know. As you will see in my email, its mainly "who owned what", "why did this happen", and "why didn't that happen", but there is also a question on junction names. My thanks for any help you can offer. I don't want to be a nuisance. Grumpyxch (talk) 11:15, 27 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Sorted the gasworks problem. Thanks for identifying.--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 22:27, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Don't do anything too hasty. Last night I discovered the 'RailUK Forums', so I joined, and asked them about the Gas Factory/Gasworks Junction question. One person came back stating that the 1935 Railway Clearing House map of that area showed two junctions, the Gas Factory one going off to the LTSR, and the other just the Fenchurch Street side of Gas Factory, which went across to the North London Railway. They said that junction was Gasworks Junction. Two other members sort of confirmed this, but whether that was to confirm the junction name or just that there was a second junction I do not know. To try to be safe, I have asked if the first respondent has a copy of the map, and if so could they scan and email to me a copy of the relevant place. That is so I can confirm that this junction is actually namede Gasworks Junction, and not just that it is a junction next to a gasworks. Will let you know how I get on. Grumpyxch (talk) 08:19, 28 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Found a link here - https://www.flickr.com/photos/36844288@N00/4244590793 - this suggests the link to the NLR is Bow South Junction, to the Goods Yard is Bow North Junction but I am not clear where Gasworks Junction was. Unfortunately Kay does not shed any light on the issue and neither does Connor in the Middleton Press book covering the area. i too will be researching this (this evening). Its not unusual for several closely spaced junction to be known by one name but lets see what truns up. --Davidvaughanwells (talk) 13:03, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Well done. Another response from the'RailUK Forums' came up with similar info, which helps confirm what you said, but they described the map as a 'GER Diagrammatic Map Of System'. The one you sent is described (not on the map) as the 1935 Railway Clearing House map, which my first Rail UK Forums respondent mentioned. My most recent respondent did describe the line from Stepney to past Gas Factory Junction as being 3 junctions close together, being Bow South (to the NLR line north of Devons Road), Bow North (into Bow Road Goods Yard) and Gas Factory Junction. He stated that Gasworks Junction is along the NLR branch from Bow South, and leads into the gasworks sidings, though your map doesn't confirm that. Grumpyxch (talk) 14:59, 28 March 2021 (UTC)


 * HA! further confusion! - J E Connor in the Middleton Press Fenchurch - Barking book names Gasworks Junction as Bow Common Junction! It is feasible as time progressed and signal box arrangements changed the junction names changed. I am tempted for wiki purposes to leave Gas Factory Junction as is with a note about other junction names in the area. The GER map is available from the GER Society (well worth joining) although I do not have one myself. --Davidvaughanwells (talk) 17:29, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

That just shows that so-called facts need to be checked and confirmed. It may be that Gas Factory Junction was originally called Bow Common Junction, but maybe Bow Common Junction was a completely different place. This post started with just two junction names, and now we have 5 or 6. The maps thast we have seen may be correct, but even they could have errors. If we don't get this right, further confusion could result. Grumpyxch (talk) 19:25, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Back to the Gas Factory Junction puzzle. I have been sent a link:- https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=51.52286&lon=-0.02526&layers=163&b=7  by someone in 'RailUK Forums'. It takes you to a detailed OS map of that part of London, that can be zoomed into. It shows a lot of detail including the rails (literally). It also shows the junction to the NLR line having the name Gas Factory Junction, but the other junctions including into the gasworks not being named at all. I'm beginning to wonder if all of those junctions (to NLR, to Goods Depot, to LT&SR, and to gasworks) went under the one name. If you expand the OS map, the detail shows the signalbox (labelled SB but shows the steps up to it), and it is close to the NLR junction, which reinforces this thought. Also, the photo I have shows the signalbox as being more where the NLR junction was rather than where the LT&SR was so, again, reinforcement. I am beginning to think that the diagram-type map you sent me via that link had the extra names added because in that diagram the three main junctions were shown seperately. Take a look at that OS map, and see what you think. Grumpyxch (talk) 17:39, 29 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Great map. I have looked in on that thread. My view is we use Gas Factory Junction as the location for the NLR Junction and the 1858 direct Barking Line as that seems to be generally how it has been treated by others.Davidvaughanwells (talk) 18:43, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Running power
More questions - when the LT&SR was built, did it having running powers over the ECR and the L&BR from Forest Gate Jct to Fenchurch Street? If so, did they ever lose any of these running powers, particularly once the Barking-Gas Factory direct line opened? Grumpyxch (talk) 08:35, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * You'll see I have started a new section for this discussion to try and keep your page nice and tidy!
 * Little bit edge of ignorance here. I think running powers are formally granted by parliamentary act but here the case was the two railways behind the LTSR had agreed to the railway being built on the basis it was. By joining the LBER to the ECR at Stratford the ECR got access to Fenchurch Street (better sited for the city) and the LBR charged both for the use of their lines. The ECR was awash with corruption and the lessees were involved in aspects of this so when there was a shareholders revolt the lessees bought shares in the ECR to keep their man in power whilst promoting the direct link to the LBR so they would not vulnerable to a change of management on the ECR who could curtail their access via Stratford. SO as I understand running powers they were not formally granted but feel free to disagree.--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 18:58, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Plaistow Engine Shed
In the Wikipedia article (I don't know what the normal name is for this) called 'Plaistow Tube Station', if you look at the sub-section about the Works and Engine Shed, it states that the engine shed had the code 33A from 1949 until it closed in 1962. If you Google 'When Plaistow Shed Really Closed' there is an article claiming that due to a mistake in the Ian Allan Locoshed Book, it led to people thinking the shed had closed in November 1959. According to the article, Plaistow shed didn't close, it became a sub-shed of Tilbury (33B). It did close in 1962, it just didn't have the 33A code after November 1959. Grumpyxch (talk) 20:49, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The 1962 closure is confirmed by Kay Volume 4 p282 - it lost its engines and drivers (to Ripple Lane) at this date but was still used to stable locomotives between the peaks and carried out boiler washouts and repairs until 15 June 1962. It am not sure whether the Ian Allen connection is relevant but feel free to update the article.--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 22:57, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Will do. Its only the fact that from Nov 59 to the closure in 62 that it wasn't 33A. Grumpyxch (talk) 07:51, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

A couple of queries on "London Tilbury & Southend Railway"
Sorry - it's me again.

In "Whitechapel and Bow Railway", 4th paragraph, 4th sentence, should it say "a few stopped short of that at Plaistow"? (I've added "stopped" to the original wording here, but haven't edited the article yet.

"Quadrupling to East Ham" - in the very last sentence (in the para under the table) there is a "(" but not a ")". Should it be after the words "the original LTS line" but before "and Through line"? I'm not sure, hence asking. As above, I haven't edited the article yet.

Regards Grumpyxch (talk) 18:36, 10 April 2021 (UTC)


 * No worries - I have corrected both sentences. I think I had overcomplicated the second sentence somewhat. Feel free to correct further. Seeing as you picked these up please could you review the follow up draft article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Davidvaughanwells/sandbox

Feel free to make direct edits - needs a fresh pair of eyes. Cheers --Davidvaughanwells (talk) 20:40, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

David - This is a question just for you:-

In your new project, I have done some editing, a few typos and a few clarifications, but in the Section "Coronation and Southend Centenary Celebrations" 2nd para (about Southend), the centenary was in 1956, but you state there were dmus and emus that were entering serviced on LTS. The LTS electrification hadn't started yet, and Liverpool Street (I believe) was still running on 1500Vdc until 1960, so are you sure that emus for the LTS existed in 1956? Grumpyxch (talk) 19:22, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * NO I think it must have been a 306 from the GE. Thanks for your other changes.

David - sorry - just a personal memory. In "Electrification" para 3, it states "Semaphore signals were replaced with 3- and 4-aspect searchlight signals." It is my memory as a trainspotter at Pitsea through the 1960s, from steam to electric, the searchlight signals were double aspect on the Upminster route and single aspect on the Tilbury route.
 * I think that's on the page at the moment - not mine. That doesn't mean wikipedia is right and your memories are wrong. Should I call you grumpy?--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 21:14, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Another question - In "The Privatisation Era", last para, last sentence, it states that West Ham had its main line platforms restored because of the Jubilee Line & the North London Line. Are you sure about the NLR? SORRY IGNORE THIS- MY STUPIDITY STRIKES AGAIN
 * Not stupidity - yes I changed there in my trainspotting days!

In "North London Railway" 1st para, the 2nd sentence states "The GER took over operation of the NLR shuttle from Bow in 1869" - where to? I assume Fenchurch Street, but is that correct?
 * Yes--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 21:15, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

David, you can call me grumpy if you wish - it comes from abbreviating my name Graham Penneck to Graham P which sounds a bit like grumpy. Back to the editing - in "District Line Services", 4th para, (a) 1st sentence - where from/to do the return trips run, (b) 3rd sentence - is it correct that the three morning trains start at Upminster and Thorpe Bay? The three evening trains start at Southend and Thorpe Bay. should the morning trains say they go to Thorpe Bay?
 * I think I prefer Graham. All of the trains ran to and from Ealing Broadway - all LTS origins were correct - the later LTS trains took day trippers back to London then acted as normal District Line trains.--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 18:17, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

"St Pancras Services", last para, last sentence - (a) there are two "although"s. May I suggest the sentence is divided after "1963", and the second "although" deleted. (b) In what will now be the second of these two sentences, should "trains" be "stations"? I have rewritten this sentence - thanks.--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 18:17, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

"Locomotives and Rolling Stock" - "Passenger" - 1st para - In the sentence about the 3-cyl 2-6-4Ts being transferred away during the war, I added about them being back by the end of 1945. That was info obtained from "The Book Of The Stanier Three Cylinder 2-6-4Ts" by John Jennison (Irwell Press ISBN 978-1-911262-38-1) pages 45 & 46
 * Great - please can you add the reference? As its a one off you can use the cite drop down above and then the Templates drop down.--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 18:51, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Have added the Ref, but as its the first time for me, perhaps you should take a look and check it. Any problems, please get in touch
 * Look great Graham. I am off on holiday from Friday so will publish to the actual page - probably Friday morning. Thanks for your help. Changes after will need to be on the page.--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 22:23, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Have a good holiday. As for the article, just to remind you that the "North Thameside Rail Served Freight Industries" contains a lot of "Example". If they are 'TBD's they may be better replaced with question marks as in other places where the data ia as yet undefined or unknown. Grumpyxch (talk) 07:21, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks Graham - I have removed all - when I get time I may try and research those some more. If you fancy a mini project of your own (assuming you are not working on something else) then Pitsea railway station may be one that could do with a history section. I generally divide into pre grouping, big 4, nationalisation and privatisation (e.g. Stowmarket railway station).--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 11:53, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't know much about Pitsea. I trainspotted there from the age of 10 to about 15 (1960-65) then we moved away. I have no reference material on it (I only found out a couple of weeks ago that it was in a different place before the Upminster line was built, though where it was originally I don't know). My unreliable memory (note the 'unreliable') tells me a few things (old bay platform, sidings, cottages, signal boxes, etc) but nothing of great significance. I have been back there once, about 10 years ago when I was on a business trip to Basildon - it had changed a lot, but the wall I used to sit on all those years ago was still there. I may put that project on a slow burner cos you never know what I might find. I'm a bit concerned about adding to other peoples work - is there a way to find out who the original author was, or does that not matter on Wikipedia? Grumpyxch (talk) 15:43, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The whole point of wikipedia is that people add to other peoples work. If you ensure your work is properly referenced then it will mostly be accepted without comment. There are a few out there that can be a bit off, but I try to engage politely (accepting I may be wrong). I was part joking about Pitsea - have you a project in mind?--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 18:22, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

UK Railways support
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_UK_Railways

A useful link here for support,questions etc --Davidvaughanwells (talk) 13:03, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Is this for asking just you (in case a question from me puts you in an embarassing position if it is public - I don't want to do that), or is it for asking anyone? Grumpyxch (talk) 16:59, 11 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Its a group and people are very helpful although occasionally the group gets bogged down in minutiae. Happy to answer questions (if I can).--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 18:32, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

More on Gas Factory Junction
I have just been reading an article on Gas Factory Junction in "The London Railway Record" (No 79, April 2014, article author and magazine editor Peter Kay). It states that the Gas Factory Junction signal box was originally by the LBER/NLR junction. When the LBER/LTSR junction was created, it was too far from the Gas Factory Junction box for the remote control of those days to allow both junctions to be controlled from this box, so another box was built for the LTSR junction, and that one was called Bromley Junction. Later, a new box was built between the two junctions (but closer to the NLR than the LTSR). The points for the LTSR were moved to outside the new box and the LTSR rails 'gauntleted' with the LBER rails (Mr Kays description) to the physical junction. Both junctions were now controlled from the new box, both old boxes were then closed, and the new box inherited the Gas Factory Junction name. Eventually, remote control technology improved, so the points were moved back to the 'normal' position, eradicating the gauntlet. The Bromley Junction name was later reused on the LTSR when they built a spur from the NLR Poplar line to the LTSR just before Bromley By Bow station.

I hope that is an accurate precis of Mr Kay's writings. I apologise to him if it is not. Grumpyxch (talk) 15:58, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Morning Graham - you have unearthed an interesting snippet there. You could add it to the LTS line article as a note (perhaps add dates?). --Davidvaughanwells (talk) 07:49, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

David - I've messed up. Please help. I have put a paragraph in "London, Tilbury & Southend Railway" in the section "Lessees Railway" and messed up the Cite. The details about my source are shown above here. Grumpyxch (talk) 11:13, 15 May 2021 (UTC) - Its okay. Murgatroyd49 has come to the rescue - my thanks to him.Grumpyxch (talk) 13:52, 16 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Murgatroyd has rescued me a couple of times!--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 18:03, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Can Murgatroyd49 see this? I'd like to thank him. Grumpyxch (talk) 09:53, 17 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Drop a note on his talk page--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 22:09, 17 May 2021 (UTC)