User talk:Grutness/archive35

This file is an archive - please do not add new discussion here - add it to my Talk page

Stubstuff
\=== Re: MfD ===

I think I see where we're getting lost in translation. I read the SfDs as an outsider, and it looks like the creator uses "unproposed" as a reason for deletion as opposed to using as a note to the closing admin based on how it's worded. Basically, by starting an SfD with "Unproposed." it makes it look like that's the reason it's being deleted. If it's meant to be a note to the closer than it isn't being used as a deletion rationale, it just looked like it. Wizardman 02:10, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi "Grutness", is says that you want to delete a page im trying to add? I'm trying to start a page for a gaming group i have just started, is this able to remain on wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew.Anisi (talk • contribs) 23:02, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Re: MFD for StSFD
Hi X - thanks for closing the SfD/WSSP deletion page. Thought I'd better point out though that one of the changes you made actually repeated information already on the page (have a look at the fifth item in the "what this page is not for" section). Perhaps refactoring the two lines together somehow...? Grutness...wha?  04:42, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've refactored it now merging it to the other and removing the new section, what do you think? Thanks, —  xaosflux  Talk  05:28, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Liechtenstein geo stubs!!!
Pulling teeth? Now you know how I felt when working on those Grenadian stubs today. I don't like doing athletes - I don't follow sports, and have no idea what I'm doing. But I tried, and failed, to get Liechtenstein up to stub category status. The fact that you managed it I admire immensely. Congratulations. --User:AlbertHerring Io son l'orecchio e tu la bocca: parla! 22:01, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Credit where it's due - most of the work wasn't mine, but rather yours early on and User:JMiall's in the last few weeks. I only added the last handful to tip it over the 60-stub mark. Grutness...wha?  22:22, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Still and all, you're the one what tipped it over the edge.


 * By the way - my request for a Grenadian bio category isn't showing up under "Proposals", and it was earlier - any idea why? --User:AlbertHerring Io son l'orecchio e tu la bocca: parla! 22:31, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Thankyou. Only a few more to go now and every mountain in Liechtenstein will have an article - an achievement of sorts. I don't intend to try the same for any normal sized countries though! JMiall ?  22:57, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It showed up, thanks. Different computer, perhaps. --User:AlbertHerring Io son l'orecchio e tu la bocca: parla! 00:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Stub sorting
Yikes I laid off the new proposals for a while because I still have a large back log to sort out, namely Asian buildings, Finnish geo stubs and Chile geo stubs. Just so much needs doing it gives me a headache!! How are amigo anyway? Count Blofeld 23:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Me go fine :) Taking it a little easier with WP at the moment, since there's quite a bit of Real World (tm) stuff going down (and hey, it's summer here... time to spend more time outside!) Grutness...wha?  23:12, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Cool, unlike here where its a miserable 150% cloud covered November!! with like 2 hours of sunlight a day! We didn't even have a summer here! P.S. I;ve proposed splitting Aussie politician stubs. Can't believe Norway was done before Australia!! Best regards  Count Blofeld  23:16, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

My 2p
I would like to modestly call attention to an essay I just wrote called "The nature of stub sorters." I am inviting a select few to peruse it at leisure and offer comments or changes if desired. I don't know what purpose it will serve, although I may cite it on occasions when we moppers are more than usually misunderstood. Thank you for reading. Her Pegship  (tis herself) 21:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Stub category names
You keep saying that, but it flies in the face of facts on the ground in a large number of cases, and especially of all recent trends at SFR and /P. In fact, if I recall correctly, you seemed perfectly happy with a number of such renames yourself: dare I say, until it started to impinge upon the geo-stubs. Those aside, the number of cat names that aren't reasonable attributive usages (rather than necessarily adjectival, as I've pointed out more times than I care to remember) are not, I don't believe, as daunting as all that. What is completely demoralising is to get part-way, and then to discover someone insisting that the old way was best, let's go back to that. Actually, quite an apt summary of the moral lesson of Wikipedia in general. Alai (talk) 01:23, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I speculated that it ties in with the geos, because you seemed to be happily going along with all of these, until (obviously in a moment of madness) I nominated a group of the "X noun stubs", and included an "X geography stubs" (for some entity "X"). At that point, you seem to fall back on this scheme, at least intermittently.  My memory is admittedly a little vague, and I don't have the energy or willpower to set about Hansardising you right now.  (I seem to recall there being another volte face on the "United Kingdom/States people stubs" vs. "ambiguous adjective people stubs" issue at some point as well, so perhaps there was a more general change in stance around the same time, and/or you'd somehow missed what a whole lot of permcat names, but that doesn't seem to be exactly what happened, either.)
 * "It definitely doesn't fly in the face of the facts on the ground..." That's simply counter-factual.  See the examples I've already cited.
 * On "where we have to guess which one is appropriate in each case": if you think whether "France university" is normal English usage or not is "guesswork", then sure, use a chart. The idea of this creating some huge number of arguments is fairly absurd.  For almost every country, it's entirely clear-cut.  And having determined it for each entity, we could then actually have some consistency, as opposed to a mish-mash of alternation between a reasonable usage where the permcat did one thing, and an unreasonable one where we decided to misconstrue what "following" the permcats would entail.
 * Your preference that "we didn't get anywhere towards the changes" is a) itself thoroughly demoralising, and b) in the wrong tense. How long is it that we "de-nouned" and "de-double-pluralised" the B&S stubs?  Many, many months, if not years.  Are you seriously going to claim that you were asleep at the switch for all that time, and that all such changes (or fresh creations) make along those lines ever since have been a horrible mistake, and we should go back and unpick them all?  Alai (talk) 05:19, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh good grief, this is hardly helping. Look at the examples that I explicitly cited that follow normal-English-usage, and not your alleged standard. "Guesswork"; this reply is entirely misdirected. You are the person who made that characterisation of my position, hence my reply. I see no fundamental difference between de-nouning, de-pluralising, and indeed de-prepositioning. They're all motivated by generating names that keep the sense of the parent, whilst managing to sound vaguely like something some sort of actual English speaker might say. If we're going to alter the form of the permcat in the name of "following" it, the question is, how much. However, I mentioned them together here because both were done for the B&Ss: And to answer my own earlier question: for the B&Ss, we did the first and the second (not needing to do the third, since such forms have rarely, if ever, been in use) over two years ago. In that period, I don't recall ever hearing anyone comment on how lamentable it is that we no longer have "France building" categories: not even you.

You've yet to address what I see as the fundamental disconnect: do you ever imagine that names of such a form would be acceptable in the permcat space? That one would ever have "France geographical Xs" or "Germany building Ys", if some such compound were required? Alai (talk) 06:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Hydroelectric power plant stubs
Just wondering: How come most of them are in Tasmania? &mdash; Sebastian 06:08, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I was wondering that too - until I noticed that there is a separate Australia-powerstation-stub. As such, it was probably one of the easiest ones to sort (compare it, for instance, with New Zealand, which has a lot of H/E stations - those are mixed in under NewZealand-struct-stub, so it's not as obvious a load to check). Also, there may well be an Aussie editor who's been busy making stub articles about Australian hydro plants. Given time, a lot of the others will probably turn up and it won't look so lop-sided. Grutness...wha?  06:33, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, makes sense - thanks! &mdash; Sebastian 07:05, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Category:Kosovo stubs
Hello. There is an edit request for Category:Kosovo stubs. I've no opinion on its merits, but I am concerned because the page history suggests that you chose to protect the page after reverting it to the version you prefer, which WP:PREFER says we should not do. Would you agree to unprotect the page so that the content issue may be resolved through normal editing processes?  Sandstein  17:53, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * See also Category talk:Kosovo geography stubs for a similar problem.  Sandstein   17:58, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The reason for the protection was that consensus was reached not to have the category as a subtype of . There had been considerable edit-warring on both the templates concerned and on a large number of the articles using the templates, which - with templates used on large numbers of articles - is hardly desirable. It wasn't a case of WP:PREFER - I've personally no particular interest in whether it's a subtype of the Serbia category or not, other than to prevent the edit-warring which occured before and is likely to occur again. Russavia knows this - he was party to at least some of the discussions which ended with the decision to keep the Kosovo categories separate. Grutness...wha?  20:22, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you think the protection is still needed? The history of the Kosovo stub template shows no editwarring after its unprotection. Also, could you point me to the discussions to which you refer? Thanks,  Sandstein   20:54, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 *  Well, the fact that Russavia's asking for changes which were soundly opposed at the time of the earlier discussions which he took part in isn't a promising sign. If it was someone else who was suggesting it, I'd be somewhat concerned, but his previous edits and discussion on this and similar subjects have often been a little fractious, to say the least. As to where the discussions are, they're all over the place, but some that have some relevance can be found at Stub_types_for_deletion/Log/2007/September/2, Stub_types_for_deletion/Log/2008/August/28, WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/Archive/February_2008, Stub_types_for_deletion/Log/2008/February/7. Others are buried somewhere in the archives of various WP:WSS pages, so may take some finding. Some indications of the problem can be seen at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Kosovo, too.


 * Whether the edit warring would move to the category is difficult to tell - once the template was protected it seems to have moved to individual articles (havee a look at the |edit history of ?ar_Mountains from October, for an example). The main problem is that edit-warring on one article, though a problem, is simply fixed. Edit-warring on a whole category, rthough, can be far more tricky to resolve. Grutness...wha?  00:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the information! I certainly appreciate the problems associated with this sort of category, and of course I have no personal stake in these ethno-nationalist editwars myself. But I'm sorry to say that I can't find in the discussions that you link to (which are half a year old at any rate) a clear and lasting consensus to keep these categories in their present state. Also, I think that because there has not been any editwarring on the categories themselves, there is currently no basis in the protection policy for the maintenance of their protection, although it can surely be reimposed if there is actual, sustained editwarring. I've made a WP:RPP request to this effect. Best,  Sandstein   07:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I'm not that concerned about which way the category ends up (with or without a Serbia parent) - the important thing is to try to maintain it in a state which has no edit warring. if it needs protecting again later, so be it - though the main problem is likely to be with all the articles within it if there are changes to the category itself. Grutness...wha?  21:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually Grutness, I have only participated in ONE discussion, that being the deletion of Category:Abkhazia stubs and Category:South Ossetia stubs (both of which now meet stub sorting guidelines mind you, yet the request is still open), and others have also mentioned that the Kosovo stub types should be a daughter of Serbia stub types. In the interests of WP:NPOV, I am the one responsible for placing both Abkhazia and South Ossetia stubs in the Georgian stub categories, and Kosovo should be the same; whilst A&SO have controversy surrounding their independence, so does Kosovo, and ethno-nationalists on all sides should be stopped. What about those of us who live in Western Australia who support the independence of our state from the Commonwealth of Australia (we had a referendum on that issue pass many years ago you know), do we now remove "Australian stubs" from "Western Australian stubs"? Interestingly, you point to the Kosovo WP, but not to the Serbia WP; have you asked their opinion as to what would be acceptable in terms of NPOV? --Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 16:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Re Western Australia, that depends. I'd certainly support the removal if 53 countries recognised the independence of Western Australia - in fact, I'd be the first to endorse its removal in that case. I didn't ask the Serbian WP for the simple reason that i didn't realise there was one - but if its views on the subjects are diametrically opposed to those of the Kosovo WP, it would support the continued protection of the category as a likely target of edit warring. Grutness...wha?  21:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd like an admin opinion on something.
Hey, I know we've spoken before at some point.

I'm a New Page Patroller, and earlier today, I tagged a Fangame article for deletion, and it ultimatly became an AfD case, which is going nowhere, but the "staff" of the project is putting up a fight, and it's getting out of hand.

I really need an outside admin opinion here. This insanity has taken my confidence in doing my job anymore.

Articles_for_deletion/Pok%C3%A9Battlers

Could you please look at that for me?

Thanks,

--Mooshykris (talk) 00:13, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Redirect wiggling
Making a redirect by means a back-and-forth move? That's four edits for the price of one! Alai (talk) 04:35, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I see! I somewhat feel your pain...  My upgrade to FF3 seems to have been a step too far for my creaking version of Fedora, and seems to crash on a whenever-it-feels-like-it basis.  Alai (talk) 04:54, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Baythorne End
Many thanks for your comments, however bearing in mind that you are neither from the UK or for that matter even Europe, I feel in this instance it would appropriate if you left the maintenance of articles as specific as this to local contributors. This is an English hamlet and we would like it identified as such. Many thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.59.95 (talk • contribs)
 * I see a message has already been posted on your talk page, but please note that editors are free to edit any article they choose, and the stub sorting project defines how stubs are used throughout Wikipedia. Please familiarise yourself with this and other Wikipedia policies. Thank you. Mind  matrix  00:20, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Aside: note that a stub notice on an article is not the same as a category. Please use the latter to denote relationships of communities within larger jurisdictions. Mind  matrix  00:20, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Advice re changing a page
Hi,

I'm considering making some edits to the Wiki page on Schools Plus, and am interested in your advice about the best way to do this, as I work at the Ministry of Education. I'd like to add more details about components of the programme, correct a couple of minor inaccuracies, and include links to some of the positive comments about Schools Plus.

My initial thought is to put my changes in the discussion thread first, with full disclosure of my role, but if you have any suggestions I'd appreciate them.

Thanks Joss Debreceny —Preceding unsigned comment added by JossatMinEdu (talk • contribs) 22:03, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * replied at User talk:JossatMinEdu Grutness...wha? 

Requested photograph categories
Also welcome, but I think most of the credit for Otago is with you! Agree with adding region to New Zealanders, may take a look at this in the next few days. Hope the weather is good for your trip, maybe some photo opportunies of State Highways also. XLerate (talk) 03:48, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

YES
YES YES 21:52, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Your HTML comment made me chuckle :) Raul654 (talk) 21:53, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

AfD Closure
Hey, I just ran by a bunch of your AfD closures like Articles for deletion/Alex Drake and Articles for deletion/Annie Cartwright. While I don't disagree (double negative) with your closures (in fact, I have no opinion on them), your closed AfD headers should be above the main title. It's just a small pet-peeve of mine, and I just wanted to give you a heads up. Thanks, and keep up the good work! D ARTH P ANDA duel 02:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Sam Tyler
Thanks for the kind words. It was a pretty hairy discussion all around, and I figured that five minutes writing a detailed explanation and my rationale might potentially save hours wasted later at DRV, AN/I and ArbCom =). But it's nice to know that the extra effort was appreciated!  Warm regards, Lankiveil (speak to me) 08:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC).

Africa in the 60s
Your dad met Kwame Nkrumah, mine drove Hastings Banda around for a while :) DuncanHill (talk) 22:13, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * My dad did VSO in Nyasaland - I think he's a life member of the Malawi Congress Party as a result of it! DuncanHill (talk) 22:30, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * He wasn't in mining supplies was he? DuncanHill (talk) 22:42, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Cool - it's just mining is an interest of mine, and struck me as just about the only business that would take you through all of British Africa except Nyasaland! DuncanHill (talk) 22:49, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

CFD closing
Hi, Just wanted to let you know that I repositioned the top part of the closing template at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_December_8, which wound up in the preceding section because you had inserted it above the section heading, instead of right below. Curiously, TenPoundHammer did the exact same thing on another section of the same page, which I also fixed. Must be something in the water! :) Cgingold (talk) 01:28, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

WP:STREET
FYI, I have proposed deletion of this redirect at Redirects for discussion/Log/2008 December 21. Colonel Warden (talk) 22:13, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh. Good luck. last time this redirect was proposed for deletion it was kept - even though I (as writer of the essay) said I had no objection to its deletion!. Grutness...wha?  22:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry For My Bad Faith
According to a recent accusation, I admit that I have used a second account by the name of NumberOneDisturbedFan, and also used IP addresses for bad faith here. I know this may have given you some trouble, and I would just like to apologize before all of my accounts get permanantly banned. Please forgive me, and I'm sorry for the trouble I have caused. I swear on my life to renounce my ways only for the good faith and leave all the bad faith behind me.--Almax999 (talk) 01:22, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

RE: langauge post
Late entry for 'best post of the year' =P doktorb wordsdeeds 07:53, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Categories for discussion/Log/2008 December 13
Can you please discuss this somewhere else? That discussion was about category merging, not this disambiguation discussion! FM [ talk to me  |  show contributions  ]  13:42, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Huh? This was discussed somewhere else - at the place I linked to in my comment. The debate finished on December 16th when consensus was reached. Grutness...wha?  23:26, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * OK I am sorry for not investigating properly, I just wanted to keep the discussion's separate (which is what I meant) As for the CFD discussion, I will probably bring it back in sometime! FM [ talk to me  |  show contributions  ]  13:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Abeit which I have done now. FM [ talk to me  |  show contributions  ]  17:07, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

In my Craft or Sullen Art
You mentioned in the AFD you expanded this article in the related AFD. Would you mind adding the references you used? - Mgm|(talk) 23:30, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Happy Holidays


MH LU talk is wishing you a Merry Christmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Don't eat yellow snow!

Spread the holiday cheer by adding to their talk page with a friendly message.

Merry Christmas, if that's okay...


Dravecky (talk) is wishing you a Merry Christmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Don't eat yellow snow!

Spread the holiday cheer by adding to their talk page with a friendly message.

Dominican Parks
Thanks for the kind words, and Merry Christmas (if that's okay) (refer to User talk:Grutness ) and best wishes in 2009. Mandsford (talk) 14:26, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Merry Christmas
<div style="background:crimson;border:5px ridge lime;color:gold;font-family:monotype corsiva;font-size:200%"> Hello Grutness! I just wanted to wish you and your family a merry Christmas! May this Christmas be full of great cheer and holiday spirit. Have a great day and a wonderful New Year, from  The Bald One       White cat 11:32, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Adding my voice to the throng
<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:blue; background-color:AliceBlue; border-width:1px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">

Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself) is wishing you a Merry Christmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Don't eat yellow snow!

Spread the holiday cheer by adding to their talk page with a friendly message. Keep up the good stubbing! Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself) 22:07, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Season's Greetings


I wish I were. I'm actually enjoying a cold, very snowy Michigan winter, but thoughts of home are always nice, especially when you can't be there. Guettarda (talk) 04:34, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * My old friend Grutness, I have really missed inter-acting with you here. Thank you for your wishes. I spent Christmas with my wife in the hospital and she still continues to be there. However, my friend I want to wish you and your loved ones a belated Merry Christmas and a wonderful New Year. Let's keep in touch. Tony the Marine (talk) 04:44, 27 December 2008 (UTC)