User talk:Guarapiranga/Archive 1

June 2019
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war&#32; according to the reverts you have made on List of countries and dependencies by population; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note: If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing.  Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 07:31, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
 * 2) Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.


 * The latest errors with your graph are explained at Talk:List of countries and dependencies by population. You need to get this right before it is added to the article. You can't just keep edit-warring over it. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 07:33, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Did I start the war? No, I didn't. You emphasise using the Talk page, but did you use it to discuss the changes before reverting them? No, you didn't. "Good for thee, not for me"? — Guarapiranga (talk) 04:12, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Guarapiranga, you seem to be edit-warring in a similar way at Jewish population by country. If you don't start using talk pages to get consensus when you are made aware that there is disagreement with your edits, and instead keep edit-warring (with or without the belligerent edit-summaries you've been using), you are likely to get yourself blocked. I'd hate to see that happen, so please listen to advice and alter your approach. Thank you. -- Begoon 07:40, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I've started a discussion at that article as the graph problems there are identical. However, I've recommended that we maintain a single discussion at Talk:List of countries and dependencies by population where we can work toward fixing the problems in both graphs at once. I've alerted as the editor opposing the graph there. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 08:42, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Please see my reply at Talk:List of countries and dependencies by population. Thank you. -- Begoon 04:33, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

October 2019
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war&#32; according to the reverts you have made on Circumcision; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note: If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Alexbrn (talk) 06:45, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
 * 2) Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

Request to stop pinging
Please stop pinging me, I find it annoying as it overfills my notification list with cruft. I know how to use a watchlist so will see any comment/reply you make on relevant articles. Alexbrn (talk) 11:07, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

unfettered age of consent
On the new "Ages of Consent" pages (e.g. Ages of consent in the United States), which column is supposed to correspond to the "unfettered age of consent"? Fabrickator (talk) 06:30, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * The last set of 4 columns to the right contain the ages of consent unfettered by differences of age, experience or authority, . Guarapiranga (talk) 07:15, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * This is going to be really confusing.
 * While you have attempted to try and fit the age restrictions into different categories, it just doesn't work very well. Although we say that WP should not be considered reliable, people do rely on it, and people come to this page to establish whether or not a particular relationship would be illegal.
 * As to the meaning of "unfettered" in the context of the "age of consent" pages, it has never been interpreted to refer to an "absolute" lack of restrictions, assuming the age requirements were met. Whether this was an simply understood at the time that the age of consent pages were evolving, or whether the sort of "relationship" restrictions that are now on the books in the U.S. were less common, I don't know, but that "limited" interpretation is how it was interpreted, and for good reason.  If we treat this in an absolute sense, this simply fails to meet the real needs of the people most likely to be coming to this page for information i.e.. high school students.  The presumption is that if you're a teacher, or you work in some kind of institution, you should know what special restrictions that apply in your situation, so those restrictions are not taken into consideration when determining the "highlighted" age of consent.
 * Even with regard to the way you have defined "unlimited", this does not account for all scenarios. For instance, there are prohibitions against adult incest in various states, which is not taken into account.  Another example that might not be taken into account (for the non-U.S. pages) is that there are jurisdictions in which adultery is criminalized.
 * I understand the appeal of just making up a table which can capture the necessary information. To the extent that the pre-existing version of these pages established the idea that there should be a "highlighted" age of consent, this was being done.  But even with that single definition, ambiguous cases (e.g. laws based on chastity, "delinquency of a minor" laws, etc.) were still present.
 * Even for an adult of reasonable intelligence, this page is hard to interpret. I don't think it can be fixed by offering more explanation.  We really need to have a page which adolescents can turn to and understand the potential for serious legal consequences when getting involved in a sexual relationship (assuming it were to come to the attention of authorities).  Sure, this information isn't going to keep everybody who checks it from getting involved in a relationship that violates the law, but if we provide the information, but in a way that is highly likely to be misinterpreted, then it will become a problem to Wikipedia when high school students start pointing at the source of their misinformation that led them to think that their relationship was legal. The situation wasn't perfect  before this major change, but in this form, it no longer serves its purpose, and it puts WP at much greater risk.  Fabrickator (talk) 17:12, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm confused; is there a problem with summarising the information at the top of the article? You say these pages are valuable in communicating to youngsters what laws are in their jurisdiction—I agree—yet summarising it to make it more accessible is bad? It doesn't make sense. Yes, the summary doesn't encompass every single possible scenario, but incest and adultery are not addressed by age of consent laws anywhere. Basically, in every jurisdiction, age of consent laws make exceptions and exemptions, when they do. The exemptions allow a lower consent age when the age difference between the parties is small, and the exceptions require a higher consent age when the older party is in a position of trust, authority or care relative to the younger one. These are the three categories in the summary table. Guarapiranga (talk) 19:31, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * The point about incest and adultery is that a "completely unfettered" age of consent is not being presented (though it would not be particularly useful anyway). I raise that point because the "unlimited" age of consent is a "more unfettered" age of consent than what was previously used as the "highlighted" age of consent.  (This is just a thought ... if you consider this from the position of the younger person, perhaps it seems like it's less confusing, but that's the wrong way to think about it, because age of consent is primarily of concern to the older person rather than the younger person.)
 * Anyway, it is definitely the case that this summary table will grab people's attention quickly and distract from the per-state sections. Unfortunately, the reader will then try to figure out which of the three choices applies, which IMO is likely to be very perplexing. This is really the point behind the idea of having a single highlighted age of consent: establish the most useful definition of age of consent, and highlight that one.  If a different age of consent applies in certain circumstances, then we rely on text to explain it.  This isn't neat and clean, it's really the best we can do, because we can't dictate to each legislature how they should structure their laws. Fabrickator (talk) 21:04, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * How is summarising synonymous with dictating, ? I'm utterly confused. I'm not opposed to highlighting anything.
 * You say the summary will distract from the detail, but it's linked and leads directly to it. Guarapiranga (talk) 21:12, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * By saying that we cannot dictate how the laws are structured, I am pointing out that the laws don't fit any neat categories, which would otherwise make a summary table be straightforward to do. The table gets the primary attention because it makes it look like it's simple to read and presumably to understand.  Why bother to read the novel when a short synopsis appears to provide all the pertinent details?
 * In principle, the numbers in one column could be "highlighted", but none of the columns correspond to the existing usage.  I think the table loaded with extra columns will still be more confusing than the pre-existing form, and merely serves to make it look like things are more well-defined than they actually are. Fabrickator (talk) 21:50, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't underestimate people's ability to read, follow a link and discern summary from detail.
 * Would you like to highlight specific cells on the table? I don't have a problem with that. Guarapiranga (talk) 21:56, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * These are high school students (or even middle school students) ... they are going to look at this and get incorrect information. I'm lots older than these high school students, I can generally parse the statutes (or recognize that they're actually ambiguous as written), I can make sense out of various judicial opinions, but I scratch my head looking at this table.
 * I wonder if your failure to appreciate the seriousness of this issue is a cultural thing. Unlike the CPS, there's very limited discretion in enforcing the law in the U.S.  One day, sexual contact is child sexual assault with a 20-year prison sentence, the next day, it's perfectly legal (and in some cases, even backwards ... what's legal one day becomes illegal the next).  Law enforcement wants to avoid being accused of selective enforcement, so they make arrests and prosecute cases without regard to how ridiculous it seems to even charge the person with a crime.  So when there's something confusing about the information, that can have incredibly serious consequences.
 * I am concerned that presenting different ages in a table, even with some cells (or some column?) highlighted is ambiguous. "Highlighting" is used figuratively.  In the textual descriptions, one age is listed first (or at least should be), that's the "highlighted" age of consent.  I don't think that's going to be clear.  In essence, what you've got now is in contradiction with both the rules as stated and as intended in the "ages of consent" template. Fabrickator (talk) 22:38, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Precisely. Hence the need to summarise.
 * You say they are going to look at this and get incorrect information. What information in the summary table is incorrect? It's all sourced from the same sources in the text. Just summarised. Guarapiranga (talk) 23:22, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not pointing out the presence of errors in the summary table, I'm saying that it's not apparent what the table even means. If I'm a teenager and I'm looking for the "general" age of consent in a particular state, meaning without respect to being a person's teacher, etc., it won't be apparent which cell to look in.
 * The non-obvious answer is to look at the "limited by relationship" column, assuming that column is populated. I can only figure this out by diligently studying how things are arranged, most people won't have the patience to figure this out, and even those who try are likely to be perplexed. Fabrickator (talk) 02:07, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Then their alternative is what, parse the statutes [and] make sense out of various judicial opinions? If the summary isn't clear, we should clarify it.
 * If you were a 16-year old teenager in, say, New Jersey, who felt taken advantage of by a teacher in an otherwise consensual sexual liaison—e.g. compelled to engage sexually to ensure good grades—and simply saw that the highlighted age of consent is 16, you might feel like there's nothing you can do. The summary attempts to give the full picture of the general framework, that there are basically 3 ages of consent: one for small age differences, a 2nd for people unrelated by trust, care or authority, and a 3rd unfettered of any such limitations. Putting them all on the same table for all jurisdictions enables the reader to compare across them too. Guarapiranga (talk) 03:24, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Obviously I can't dismiss the scenario, but you're describing a situation where someone has a lot more motivation... and this source is not complete for all the sources of prohibitions on such activity.. even if the interaction between teacher and student were totally legal, since it's probably not just state law that would restrict such behavior. Far more plausible is that the victim would contact an adult who can bring resources to bear.  But seriously, if you just look at a state that restricts teachers (e.g. Alabama), just read through the whole thing, there's a clear explanation that there's a rule applying to school employees.  This is far simpler than decoding your mystery table.
 * When the senior who wants to date a sophomore looks at this page and can't figure it out, he might just give up. Or perhaps he will misconstrue that the page says it's okay when it isn't, because, although you fail to recognize it, the table will not actually be comprehensible to him.  And how do I know this?  Because it's only comprehensible to me after scratching my head spending 30 minutes trying to figure it out.  What is the point of offering this information but putting it in a form that's so unusable? Fabrickator (talk) 04:21, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Sounds subjective. Guarapiranga (talk) 04:45, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * You could embed an explanation of how to interpret the table (hidden by default), to help people make sense of the table. Such an explanation should make it possible for someone to evaluate the accuracy of specific data in the table. Fabrickator (talk) 06:00, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, I can do that, . Actually, that's what I tried to do with that Definitions subsection. What else would you like it to say? Guarapiranga (talk) 22:10, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Alternatively, the summary table could be moved below the State laws section. Guarapiranga (talk) 22:14, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I've read the definitions. While they purport to tell me what the columns mean, they don't explain how to use the table. With considerable patience, one might be able to figure this out, but something that's so difficult to use can't be a good thing.  If you don't see a problem, you need a third party to help you with this, but inasmuch as you've already rejected my opinion, I am clearly the wrong person to ask. Fabrickator (talk) 03:16, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I've read the definitions. While they purport to tell me what the columns mean, they don't explain how to use the table. With considerable patience, one might be able to figure this out, but something that's so difficult to use can't be a good thing.  If you don't see a problem, you need a third party to help you with this, but inasmuch as you've already rejected my opinion, I am clearly the wrong person to ask. Fabrickator (talk) 03:16, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: List of countries by prevalence of genital cutting has been accepted
 List of countries by prevalence of genital cutting, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

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 List of countries by age of consent, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created. The article has been assessed as List-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article. You are more than welcome to continue making quality contributions to Wikipedia. If your account is more than four days old and you have made at least 10 edits you can create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for Creation if you prefer. Thank you for helping improve Wikipedia! Gbawden (talk) 08:57, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
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Edit summaries
Please be careful about using the word "vandalism" in an edit summary such as this. At Wikipedia, "vandalism" has a specific meaning defined at WP:VAND. It is important that there be a reason related to improving an article when making an edit, and is not acceptable to claim that something is vandalism when it clearly is not. Johnuniq (talk) 09:12, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
 * You say it clearly is not, I believe it clearly is. I don't use the world with levity. Guarapiranga (talk) 08:13, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

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Feedback request: Biographies request for comment
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ANI
There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. I mentioned you indirectly in a complaint I filed and I have to inform you. The title is Long term increasing POV and OR editing of List articles re Palestine.

DS Alert
--Guy Macon (talk) 07:54, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

DS alert
This is to inform you that discretionary sanctions (DS) are in force for "any gender-related dispute or controversy", which includes articles about FGM and male circumcision. To alert editors to the existence of the DS we have to use this template. Just to be clear, this notice doesn't imply any wrongdoing on your part, and I'm leaving it as an involved editor, not as an admin. More information below.

SarahSV (talk) 20:21, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Note
After reviewing your edits recently, it seems clear that you have a severe problem with edit warring and bludgeoning. You were recently warned to pursue dispute resolution. You appear to have ignored this directive, instead endlessly arguing on talk pages. Of significant concern, you saw fit to warn a WMF board member against edit warring via a template. I'm going to be honest, you're strongly coming across as a POV-pusher, whether you intend to be or not, and you're likely on your last legs before being indef blocked. You can either continue being tendentious, and preferably move on from your problematic area of circumcision, and prove that you're actually able to contribute something of value that's not controversial and politically charged, or, you can take your chances with the imminent block. Your choice. I am not going to argue with you about it either, but I will block you if I deem it necessary. ~Swarm~ {sting} 01:30, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
 * So you find I'm the one pushing POV and not the ones that have been long patrolling these pages and disruptively undoing any contribution they perceive as remotely threatening to their POV, ? And that I am the one endlessly arguing on talk pages? That's interesting… And I'm the tendentious one!
 * So you ask me to prove that I can contribute in topics other than circumcision, but if you look at my edits, they include population pages, age of consent matters, template suggestions, etc. Didn't you say you reviewed them? Look, it's easy: it's right there on my profile page. — Guarapiranga (talk) 01:51, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Look, I'm not going to argue with you, I'm just giving you a heads up that you're obviously being disruptive in a controversial topic area, in more ways than one, and you're probably going to get indef blocked sooner rather than later if you don't change your approach. That's just my honest assessment of the situation. Please review the links I included, it's important that you understand these concepts if you're going to stop being problematic. You can take it or leave it, but don't say you weren't warned. ~Swarm~  {sting} 20:06, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Firstly, I don't think your assessment is fair, . Regarding circumcision, I've made contributions in good-faith, mostly numbers, figures, maps and citations, I made very little text editing, and have been virulently attacked by a group of editors whose record show they gang up on anyone they perceive as threatening to their POV. WP:Stonewalling, plain and simple.
 * Secondly, your assessment is not factual, as you say my contributions are concentrated on this topic, and the record shows they're clearly not.
 * Thirdly, your approach is not of someone who's come to advise and inform, but to threaten and harass. You may be an admin, but you don't act like one. Guarapiranga (talk) 20:36, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Okay, I was trying to be tactful, but since you don't seem to be getting it, I will explain: when I warn you that being combative and endlessly arguing is a serious problem that is going to lead to a block, that means you're already there. You are already in blockable territory. By warning you, you're being extended some additional rope, as we say. In other words, you're not being offered a chance to talk your way out of it, you're specifically being given a chance to either correct the problem or solidify it further. Being combative and endlessly arguing with a warning about that exact behavior solidifies the problem, hurts your case, expends the rope, further justifies a potential block, however you want to describe it. I said you could take it or leave it, and that was true. You didn't have to accept my words. But I am also not going to let you continue bludgeoning and battlegrounding over it, when that's precisely the primary issue driving you towards a block. Furthermore, I never said you were a single-purpose account, so I do not know why you keep saying that, unless you're willfully trying to misrepresent my words. If I thought you were a single-purpose account with no interest in other areas, you would simply be blocked, not warned. I suggested that you move on from your problem area, as that is the easiest solution. If you're not going to do so, then you need to refrain from edit warring, abide by WP:BRD, avoid bludgeoning and battlegrounding, utilize dispute resolution, gain consensus for disputed changes, and, if you are ultimately unable to do so, drop the stick if you don't win a dispute. If you can do all that, then we have no issue whatsoever. Based on your responses, you do not seem particularly willing to do that, so I will reemphasize my recommendation that you step away if that is the only option. And, finally, personal attacks and aspersions will not be tolerated. Claiming I'm harassing you is one example, falsely reverting edits as vandalism is another. And, honestly, I'm sorry if my approach came across as hostile, because it was not meant to be personal. I understand that human nature is to be defensive, and I will not hold it against you. I do not want you to react defensively because you're feeling attacked rather than understanding my actual points. I am not invested in you personally. I do not care what you do. My job is simply to enforce the community's standards for conduct and content, in situations where I'm not involved. And, I'm not threatening you, but I am explaining that you are not in line with those standards, and what your options and potential consequences are at this point. I am offering you an opportunity to correct these issues, so that I don't have to block you. I don't want to block you, I want you to understand and fix the issues voluntarily. Whether you personally attack me, argue with me, ignore me, or take me seriously, it does not change anything regarding the actual situation that you're in. It merely determines where you go from here. And that is up to you. As I said, you can take it or leave it. But, if we're being completely frank, "sooner rather than later" is not an exaggeration. You pretty much have to change, or be blocked. Sorry if that seems crass or blunt, that's just the reality. Please don't get angry and self-destruct because I said that, on the contrary, if you need help or advise, I will help you. I'd much rather help you than block you. ~Swarm~  {sting} 02:10, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
 * You call that tactful?? Ok then. Guarapiranga (talk) 08:15, 22 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Due to the fact that you have directly engaged in an edit war in order to restore unambiguous personal attacks that were removed by an administrator, you have been blocked for 24 hours. I cannot interpret this incident as anything other than a very direct violation of the warnings that I have issued you, and you are being sanctioned accordingly. Note that I consider this to be a lenient measure given that an indef block is a realistic alternative that you have already been made aware of. Regards, ~Swarm~  {sting} 06:39, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I acted in accordance to my understanding of WP:TPO, which clearly states: I did not find the deleted comment to be a personal attack, but rather a  criticism of other editors' actions. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected, but I find you abuse of authority and overall approach quite belligerent and unbecoming of a Wikipedia admin, . I urge you to reconsider it. Guarapiranga (talk) 12:11, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * You have been extremely lucky to be blocked for only 24 hours for this conduct. Restoring that text at talk:circumcision was wildly inappropriate, and if you ever do anything like that again you can expect a long block without any further warning. Guy (help!) 11:07, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what brings you to this discussion,, but I see you proposed a page I just added for deletion. That just strikes me as plain and simple WP:HA. The page I added of that French author I modelled after a sample of other pages from other living authors. If you have suggestions on how to improve the article, please make it there. Room for improvement is not a good reason to WP:delete it: Guarapiranga (talk) 12:18, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * , I saw the edit, looked at the block, reviewed your contributions, and noticed an unsourced WP:BLP, which is not allowed. This is what admins do when they see controversial edits.
 * You created the article, the onus is on you to source it. You've been here long enough to know better than to create an unsourced biography - you created it in your sandbox I think but we also have Draft space for building up articles until they are ready for prime time. Don't create unsourced biographies. Guy (help!) 12:25, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Can I? No, I'm blocked. Feels like you're WP:hounding me. A cn would've sufficed. Guarapiranga (talk) 20:31, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:TPO specifically and directly authorizes the removal of personal attacks. The personal attacks here were very blunt, severe, and unambiguous, so it is not convincing that you would have found the removal to be out of line with TPO. Further more, any remaining uncertainty should have gone out the window when an administrator stepped in to re-remove the comments. There is absolutely zero remotely-rational reason to have restored egregious personal attacks on a talk page, especially when you're restoring personal attacks against editors you're involved with, stepping into yet another edit war to do so, and doing so in a problematic area of involvement, after you've been strongly warned that you're on your last legs before being blocked, and were encouraged to leave the topic area entirely. None. Absolutely none. Due to the fact that you're being argumentative and combative in response to this extraordinarily-lenient block, and personally attacking both me another administrator, I'm revoking your talk page access and extending your block to one week. Note that this is still incredibly lenient, and that there's no reason for me not to block you indefinitely, as I have already told you. So, take this as your absolute last chance to take this seriously. If I have to block you again, I'm not cutting you another break. There will not be an expiry next time. ~Swarm~  {sting} 00:48, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:List of countries by number of Internet users


Hello, Guarapiranga. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "List of countries by number of Internet users".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been nominated for deletion. If you plan on working on it further, or editing it to address the issues raised if it was declined, simply and remove the, , or  code.

If your submission has already been deleted by the time you get there, and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia! UnitedStatesian (talk) 02:44, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:List of North American countries by population


Hello, Guarapiranga. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "List of North American countries by population".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been nominated for deletion. If you plan on working on it further, or editing it to address the issues raised if it was declined, simply and remove the, , or  code.

If your submission has already been deleted by the time you get there, and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia! UnitedStatesian (talk) 18:32, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Cite Unseen update
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 * Hand-33988.svg Editable: Sites that are editable by the public, such as wikis (Wikipedia, Fandom) or some databases (IMDb, Discogs).
 * Book X red.svg Predatory journals: These sites charge publication fees to authors without checking articles for quality and legitimacy.
 * Perennial source categories: Cite Unseen will mark sources as Yes Check Circle.svg generally reliable, Achtung-orange.svg marginally reliable, Argentina - NO symbol.svg generally unreliable, Stop hand.svg deprecated, and X-circle.svg blacklisted. This is based on Wikipedia's perennial sources list, which reflects community consensus on frequently discussed sources. Sources that have multiple categorizations are marked as Question Circle.svg varied reliability. Note that Yes Check Circle.svg generally reliable icons are disabled by default to reduce clutter, but you can enable them through your custom config. A special thanks to, whose new Sourceror API provides the perennial sources list in a clean, structured format.
 * With the addition of the new categorizations, the Scale icon unbalanced.svg biased source icon has been removed. This category was very broad, and repetitive to the new advocacy and perennial sources categorizations that are more informative.

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new articles
Don't you think you should be creating these in user space or draftspace? List of North American countries by population/sandbox and List of countries by number of Internet users/sandbox Schazjmd   (talk)  01:02, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * and moved it to that page's sandbox to invite collaboration. Do you see a problem with that, ? I assumed it was ok, as it is common practice with template pages (draftspace, OTOH, AFAIK, is for new articles, not new versions of existing ones). Guarapiranga (talk) 01:18, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Mainspace doesn't permit subpages, so what you did was create two new articles in mainspace that happen to have /sandbox as part of their title. See WP:Subpages. If those are copies of existing articles that you want to work on before incorporating your changes to the article, move them to your userspace and invite others to that page. Schazjmd   (talk)  01:38, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Duly noted. Guarapiranga (talk) 01:58, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * just came to leave a note about this - the mainspace doesn't support subpages, so "Foo/sandbox" isn't connected to "Foo" on a technical level, and they showed up in the new pages feed. I have moved them to draft (Draft:List of countries by number of Internet users and Draft:List of countries by number of Internet users) DannyS712 (talk) 01:38, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Cheers, . Guarapiranga (talk) 01:58, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

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Abbreviations and tooltips. From Template:Abbr
I don't like abbreviations in headers. Not clear to most readers. And it is an unnecessary step to comprehension. There is room in the header. Please discuss on article talk page before doing them.

Plus they probably make comprehension difficult for people using screen readers. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:03, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I don't like abbreviations in headers.
 * I do. But that's immaterial. What matters is WP:MOS.
 * Not clear to most readers.
 * Please discuss on article talk page before doing them.
 * Not the WP way.
 * Plus they probably make comprehension difficult for people using screen readers.
 * Not according to MOS:ACCESS.
 * Guarapiranga (talk) 04:14, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * What does MOS:ACCESS say about tooltips in table headers as a substitution for part of a header? Why make someone with a screenreader try to figure out that the incarceration rate is per 100,000? Why make anyone have to click or hover to find that out? There is room in the header.
 * With static row numbers we no longer have to use class=nowrap in order to have the row numbers align correctly. People looking at a table in a narrower screen have no problem now. Because we now allow laddering in headers. Header length and breaks are no longer a factor in row number alignment. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:51, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * What does MOS:ACCESS say about tooltips in table headers as a substitution for part of a header?
 * I linked the policy so you could look it up yourself (use ctrl/cmd-F if you need to).
 * Why make someone with a screenreader try to figure out that the incarceration rate is per 100,000?
 * Because that's standard. More words on the screen don't always add to comprehension. More words = more time to read and digest = LESS comprehension (unless vague, which is not the case here).
 * Why make anyone have to click or hover to find that out?
 * Because most people interested in population statistics don't have to; they already know it.
 * Great. I didn't add that, though; not sure why you're mentioning it. Guarapiranga (talk) 05:09, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Great. I didn't add that, though; not sure why you're mentioning it. Guarapiranga (talk) 05:09, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Great. I didn't add that, though; not sure why you're mentioning it. Guarapiranga (talk) 05:09, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Please see the info from the person using the screenreader discussed here:
 * Help:Sorting
 * You linked to MOS:ACCESS, but did not quote anything from it relevant to our discussion.
 * Population statistics come in all types. Per 100, or per 1000, or per 100,000, or per 1,000,000. I have seen them all in tables. And even more variations. So readers can't assume anything. They will have to hover to get the tooltip. That is an unnecessary waste of time. And some may not even figure out there is a tooltip at all.
 * Just for my own records, and so others reading this know what we mean by "abbreviations", I pasted this from the table header in question:
 * Incarceration rate
 * Incarceration rate
 * abbr
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 05:24, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * You linked to MOS:ACCESS, but did not quote anything from it relevant to our discussion.
 * Ok, here you go:
 * Guarapiranga (talk) 05:26, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Incarceration rate is a tooltip. It is not an abbreviation.
 * I see that there have been many discussions about tooltips. Many people have pointed out the accessibility problems with it. Others point to its utility in other situations. But for List of countries by incarceration rate I am opposed to its use. Please do not add tooltips to the article without some kind of discussion and agreement on the talk page. --Timeshifter (talk) 06:01, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

style=text-align:left is in HTML5. align=left is deprecated.
See diff.

Please use style=text-align:left instead of align=left

You replaced the correct version with the incorrect version. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:07, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

You deleted the rates per 100,000 population table
United States drug overdose death rates and totals over time

See diff.

Please pay more attention. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:43, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

class=nowrap and id= are not needed with Template:static row numbers
I would say removing class=nowrap is the most important thing when converting from rank to static row numbers.

Because this allows more people to view the table without a horizontal scrollbar. The table can be fully viewed in narrower browser windows.

The id= that is used with rank is no longer needed. Be careful not to remove ids having to do with other stuff. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:20, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

static row numbers versus srn
asked in an edit summary (see diff) that static row numbers be used instead of srn.

The edit summary: "use the full name to be clearer what the template does. srn seem like one of those short note citation templates"

I agree. I think more people will use the template if they easily recognize it in the wikitext.

Unfortunately, row numbers is already taken by another row numbering template. One that is much more unwieldy. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:14, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * An advantage of static row numbers is that it matches the class, connecting the template and the class in the target table. —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 06:34, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Year ranges in column heads. Need space after dash or it will not wrap
I noticed header text overlapping with adjacent header cells after one of your edits. See the top table here:
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries_by_past_life_expectancy&oldid=1021666379

Note the year ranges.

I removed the max-width you had added to the column heads. I then put max-width to the table as a whole. This is necessary for multi-row headers. But the header text was still overlapping. I had to add a space after the dashes in the year ranges in the header text in order to get the header text to wrap. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:19, 6 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Need space after dash or it will not wrap
 * Here it did. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 21:58, 6 May 2021 (UTC)


 * That table currently has spaces after the dashes in the header text. I added the spaces to get the header text to wrap. Table:
 * List of countries by past life expectancy
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 23:18, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That screenshot is of the (notice it's narrower). — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 23:56, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That's interesting. I looked at various old versions and could no longer see the problem. Maybe the developers fixed it recently. I noticed some recent discussion in a Phabricator thread about adjusting the alignment of header text. Maybe they noticed the problem with dashes in year ranges.
 * I noticed in another table on that page that there were breaks  in the year ranges. Maybe that was done for the same reason. I replaced those with spaces instead. This is better for people with screenreaders.
 * But if the problem is fixed, then that's great. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:05, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I looked at various old versions and could no longer see the problem. Maybe the developers fixed it recently.
 * Great. Can you now please restore that version then, or shall I do it? — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 02:40, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The spaces don't hurt anything. They are not even noticed since the header text in the header cells is wrapping. And who knows what the developers will do next. This is not the first time I have seen this problem with text not wrapping where the dashes are. And breaks should not be returned since they annoy people with screenreaders. And the table with invisible borders should not be returned since it is unnecessary, and confusing to other editors. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:51, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

(unindent). This is weird. The problem with the dashes is back now right this minute. I don't know for how long. It is the top table. I happened to be checking this old version: So I think it is a good idea to put a space after a dash in a year range. That is where it will wrap, and so it will not be noticed. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:20, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries_by_past_life_expectancy&oldid=1021666379


 * Not here. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 06:58, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I made a screenshot:
 * commons:File:Screenshot showing wordwrap problem in year range without spaces.png
 * Feel free to bring this to Phabricator. I may or may not get around to it.
 * I copied part of the table wikitext to the Commons. I can see the problem there too. The table excerpt is below the image description.
 * I made the screenshot using Firefox browser on Windows 10 Pro on a desktop PC. I don't see the problem in Edge or Chrome browsers. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:16, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * You do seem to have a lot of issues with your setup. Perhaps you should look into fixing it before attempting to "fix" WP to conform to it. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 01:33, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Firefox is not my creation. So I can't fix Firefox. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:16, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

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Header text now stays centered in both desktop and mobile view unless specifically changed per header cell
I removed  from all the header cells in the header rows at the top here: Check the page in both desktop and mobile views. Header text in the top header rows is centered in both views. It is not effected by the global right alignment styling in the top line of the table wikitext.
 * User:Timeshifter/Sandbox147

The bottom header rows have text alignment set specifically for each header cell.

This Phabricator task has been resolved: --Timeshifter (talk) 17:13, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * T240106. How much control do editors have over table alignment in mobile?


 * See User:Timeshifter/Sandbox144.
 * All of the tables in that sandbox have global text alignment set to the right in the top line of the table wikitext. There is no header text alignment styling in individual header cells.
 * So one can see that only in tables with class=wikitable does the header cell text not follow the global text alignment. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:13, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:ColorToLum/nonLua
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Nigeria
Nigeria's population?Elan Morin Tedronai (talk)


 * There now. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 21:03, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

max-width does not work well on individual columns when there are multi-row headers
Homicide statistics by gender - It has multiple rows in the header.

Compare these 2 versions of the page:

Max-width to individual column headers. Note that the header text is jammed up against the sorting icons. In the homicide rate headers.
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Homicide_statistics_by_gender&oldid=1021527700

Max-width to overall table width: Header text not jammed up. Even when browser width is narrowed.
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Homicide_statistics_by_gender&oldid=1021585141

See also: --Timeshifter (talk) 15:00, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * User:Timeshifter/Sandbox147 - Multiple rows in the header.
 * User:Timeshifter/Sandbox144 - Notes about Max-width.

Please do not remove table captions. Screenreaders need table captions.
Please don't forget to return the table caption when changing from rank to srn. Screenreaders need table captions. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:01, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

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style=vertical-align:bottom is in HTML5. valign=bottom is deprecated.
Please do not add valign=bottom to tables. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:59, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Does Wikipedia really claim to be a reliable source?
I just happened across an old discussion from Talk:Ages of consent in the United States in which you claim I am confused about (Wikipedia as a reliable source for Wikipedia articles) vs. (Wikipedia as a reliable source for Wikipedia users). I am taken aback by this claim.

It's curious, that when doing a google search of "wikipedia reliable source" (without quotes), it pulls an answer from WP:Wikipedia is not a reliable source, stating: Wikipedia can be edited by anyone at any time. This means that any information it contains at any particular time could be vandalism, a work in progress, or just plain wrong.

Although WP:Wikipedia is not a reliable source is offered as a supplement to WP:Reliable sources, I would respond: "Whoop, there it is!", i.e. you can't credibly deny this, it's right in front of your face.

There is also WP:Academic use, which refers back to WP:Wikipedia is not a reliable source as the explanation for why Wikipedia should not be cited as a reliable source.

According to you, we should treat the statement that "Wikipedia is not a reliable source" as merely a prohibition against using Wikipedia as a citation within Wikipedia, while at the same time, we have another essay telling us "No, Wikipedia can't really be considered a reliable source", and additionally, there is this highly visible public source (admittedly, FWIW) also citing this statement that WP isn't a reliable source.

None of this is to disparage claims of Wikipedia being highly accurate. I perceive "accuracy" (in this context, at least) as an estimate of the likelihood that any given statement in WP is true, whereas "reliability" is more of a process issue. Inasmuch as there is no process to verify that each change is itself based on reliable information, WP itself cannot be considered a reliable source.

Do you still insist that I'm confused? Fabrickator (talk) 22:28, 5 March 2020 (UTCC)

Copying within Wikipedia requires attribution
Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you copied or moved text from Vaccination policy into Vaccination schedule. While you are welcome to re-use Wikipedia's content, here or elsewhere, Wikipedia's licensing does require that you provide attribution to the original contributor(s). When copying within Wikipedia, this is supplied at minimum in an edit summary at the page into which you've copied content, disclosing the copying and linking to the copied page, e.g.,. It is good practice, especially if copying is extensive, to also place a properly formatted copied template on the talk pages of the source and destination. The attribution has been provided for this situation, but if you have copied material between pages before, even if it was a long time ago, please provide attribution for that duplication. You can read more about the procedure and the reasons at Copying within Wikipedia. Thank you. If you are the sole author of the prose that was copied, attribution is not required. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 14:35, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I didn't copy it, ; I moved it (as it says in my edit summary). And it was content I myself had added to the former page. Once I realised there was a more appropriate page for it, I moved it onto the latter. Does moving content from one page to another, while retaining its sources, require attribution? Also, once I moved the content to the more appropriate page, I transcluded it to the former page. Does transclusion also require attribution? Cheers. Guarapiranga (talk) 00:34, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry for not noticing that. If you are the sole author of the material, attribution is not required. Transclusion does not require attribution, because you have not actually moved or copied material if you transclude it. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 00:39, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Internet users by country


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 * Sure, count on me. — Guarapiranga ☎ 23:02, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

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 * So your work was not wasted.
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 19:57, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

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Scripts++ Newsletter – Issue 22
 Hello everyone, and welcome to the 22nd issue of the Wikipedia Scripts++ Newsletter. This issue will be covering new and updated user scripts from the past seven months (June through December 2021).

Got anything good? Tell us about your new, improved, old, or messed-up script here!

Featured script
 * LuckyRename, by Alexis Jazz, is this month's featured script. LuckyRename makes requesting file moves easier, and automates the many steps in file moving (including automatic replacement of existing usage). Give it a shot!

Updated scripts
 * SD0001: hide-reverted-edits has been updated to take into account changes in reversion tools like Twinkle and RedWarn.
 * Writ Keeper: massRollback.js has added a rollback-some option (missed in last issue).
 * ClaudineChionh: SkinSwitcher (a fork and update of Eizen's script) provides an options menu/toolbox/toolbar allowing users to view a given page in MediaWiki's default skins.

Pending requests
 * Mass-patrolling at Special:NewPages
 * Taking up the mantle of an almost completed peer review javascript bot
 * Restore the Wikipedia Citation Tool for Google Books
 * Autohighlighting specific characters (Greek)
 * ...and many more, all available at User scripts/Requests

Miscellaneous
 * User scripts/Ranking is a sortable table of Wikipedia's thousand-or-so most commonly used scripts; it includes their author, last modification date, installation count, and sometimes a short description.
 * Toolhub is a community managed catalog of software tools used in the Wikimedia movement. Technical volunteers can use Toolhub to document the tools that they create or maintain. All Wikimedians can use Toolhub to search for tools to help with their workflows and to create lists of useful tools to share with others.

New scripts
 * Ahecht:
 * draft-sorter sorts AfC drafts by adding WikiProject banners to their talk pages. It supersedes User:Enterprisey/draft-sorter, adding a few features and fixing some bugs.
 * massmove, a modified User:Plastikspork/massmove.js that adds a link to the left column, allows adding and removing both prefixes and suffixes.
 * watchlistcleaner removes missing pages (redlinks), redirects, pages you haven't edited recently, and/or pages you've never edited from your watchlist.
 * Awesome Aasim:
 * Infiniscroll adds infinite scrolling to user contributions, page histories, and log pages.
 * Quick create allows for the fast creation of red-linked pages with two clicks.
 * Caburum:
 * UTCclock adds a clock displaying the current UTC time.
 * Chlod:
 * CopiedTemplateEditor, mainly for CCI case handlers, allows graphically editing a talk page's copied templates.
 * DaxServer:
 * BooksToSfn adds a portlet link in Visual Editor's source mode editing, in main namespace articles or in the user's Sandbox. When clicked, it converts one inside a   tag block into an.
 * FlightTime:
 * OneClickArchiver is a custom version of User:Technical_13/Scripts/OneClickArchiver which doesn't prepend Clear to the top of each section on the archive page.
 * Jon Harald Søby:
 * diffedit enables editing directly from viewing a diff "when, for instance, you notice a tiny mistake deep into an article, and don't want to edit the entire article and re-find that one line to fix that tiny mistake".
 * warnOnLargeFile warns you if you're about to open a very large file (width/height >10,000px or file size >100 MB) from a file page.
 * JPxG:
 *  PressPass  adds a collection of tools for Newspapers.com including configurable automatic citation generation in five different formats.
 * CurrentSwitcher gives you links on the contribs page to hide duplicate entries, current revisions, rollbacks, huggles, twinkles, and redwarns.
 * TrackSum lets you automatically sum the lengths of tracks in templates like track listing and get total runtimes.
 * Nardog:
 * CopySectLink adds a button to copy the unencoded page title or section path next to each heading.
 * IPAInput allows you to type in IPA symbols by directly looking at an IPA key like Help:IPA/English and clicking on the symbols.
 * TemplatePreviewGuard warns when you try to use "Preview page with this template" with a page that doesn't transclude the template.
 * NguoiDungKhongDinhDanh:
 * ContribsTabVector adds "Contributions" and "Statistics" tabs to user and user talk pages on the Vector skin.
 * CopyvioChecker adds a "CopyvioCheck" tab to all pages, except Special (Vector skin only).
 * LiveDiffLink is a version of Equazcion's LiveDiffLink which shows a wikilink instead of a URL.
 * QuickDiff (by OneTwoThreeFall at Fandom) lets you quickly view any diff link on a wiki, whether on Recent Changes, contribs pages, history pages, the diff view itself, or elsewhere. For more information, view its page on Fandom.
 * Novem Linguae:
 * DetectSNG scans a list of 1,600 SNG keywords and displays them at the top of the article.
 * NotSoFast highlights recently created articles in the new pages feed, to discourage patrolling them too quickly.
 * UserRightsDiff concisely displays what perm was added or removed when viewing Special:UserRights.
 * VoteCounter displays a rough count of keeps and deletes at XFDs, RFCs, etc.
 * WatchlistAFD automatically watchlists the AFDs of any pages you AFC accept or NPP patrol, to help you calibrate your reviewing.
 * P.T.Đ:
 * TwinkleMobile enables Twinkle on mobile view (Minerva skin).
 * Qwerfjkl:
 * editRedirect adds a → link after redirects to edit them.
 * RegExTypoFix, a script for fixing typos, is a wrapper for User:Joeytje50/RETF.js.
 * talkback creates links after user talk page links like this: | |  (with the first linking to the user's contributions, and the latter giving the option of sending a talkback notice). It also adds a [] link next to section headers.
 * Rublov:
 * diff-link shows "copy" links on history and contributions pages that copy an internal link to the diff (e.g., Special:Diff/1026402230) to your clipboard when clicked.
 * Rummskartoffel:
 * auto-watchlist-expiry automatically watchlists every page you edit for a user-definable duration (you can still pick a different time using the dropdown, though).
 * generate pings generates the wikitext needed to ping all members of a category, up to 50 editors (the limit defined by MediaWiki).
 * share ExpandTemplates url allows for easy sharing of your inputs to Special:ExpandTemplates. It adds a button that, when clicked, copies a shareable URL to your exact invocation of the page, like this. Other editors do not need to have this script installed in order to access the URL generated.
 * show tag names shows the real names of tags next to their display names in places such as page revision histories or the watchlist.
 * Tol:
 * VisualEditor Citation Needed adds a button (under "Insert") in VisualEditor to add a citation needed tag.
 * Venkat TL:
 * ColourContrib color-codes the user contributions page so that pages you've edited last are sharply distinguished from pages where another editor was the last to edit the page.
 * Vukky:
 * StatusChanger is a fork of Enterprisey's Status Changer, which adds a UI to the script. (using Morebits, so you'll need to have Twinkle enabled to use it).

All in all, some very neat scripts were written in these last few months. Hoping to see many more in the next issue -- drop us a line on the talk page if you've been writing (or seeing) anything cool and good. Filling in for DannyS712, this has been jp×g. Take care, and merry Christmas! jp×g 07:30, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

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List of countries by hospital beds moved to draftspace
An article you recently created, List of countries by hospital beds/sandbox, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of " " before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. ... disco spinster   talk it has begun... ]] 12:44, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Quotations taken out of context
Please stop taking quotations of mine out of context and using them to support positions that I do not support.

The context at WT:COUNTRIES was specifically the question of which entities should be included in lists. This has nothing to do with the question of whether we should follow our own MOS when naming those entities, nor with the question of whether we should note whether entities are sovereign states or not.

When you take a quote from one context and apply it to a different context, you misrepresent me, which is considered unacceptable according to talk page guidelines. Kahastok talk 10:07, 21 June 2021 (UTC)


 * It is not my intent to misrepresent you, . The context from which I quoted you did include nomenclature, not only country inclusions, and you said so yourself explicitly (emphasis mine): Where the list is based on a single source, the definition and nomenclature should be based on the source.$[1]$ — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 ☎ 14:25, 21 June 2021 (UTC)


 * You just did it again.


 * Firstly, List of countries and dependencies by population is self-evidently not based on a single source. Secondly, in context it is obvious that I was referring to the question of whether to call them "sovereign states", "countries", "countries and dependencies" and so on, given that we were discussing what entities belong on lists.  That is obviously different to the question of whether to refer to Ivory Coast or Côte d'Ivoire.


 * So, you again quoted me out of context, and I ask you again to stop. Kahastok talk 14:40, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Firstly, List of countries and dependencies by population is self-evidently not based on a single source.
 * Correct. As you said, and I agreed, Where it is not based on a single source, the best option is to use one outside reference point like ISO 3166-1 and stick to it.
 * Secondly, in context it is obvious that I was referring to the question of whether to call them "sovereign states", "countries", "countries and dependencies" and so on
 * Is it? That's not nomenclature at all. That's classification.
 * That is obviously different to the question of whether to refer to Ivory Coast or Côte d'Ivoire.
 * This was never the issue (which indeed is addressed by MOS:GEO), but rather whether to call Puerto Rico Puerto Rico or Puerto Rico (US), or whether to distinguish it with formatting (e.g. italics), or whether to distinguish it by not numbering it. What you advocated, and I agreed, is: editors ought to follow the sources. If it's a single one, then that; if not, and they differ, then ISO 3166-1. I agree. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 ☎ 14:59, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I have told you over and over and over again now. No.  No matter how much you choose to quote me out of context, that is not what I advocated in this context.


 * I am the only person who has the right to decide what my position is on any given issue. You do not have the right to decide for me.  While initially it may have been reasonable to assume you just made a mistake, at this point - given how many times I have explained this point to you - this assumption is increasingly untenable. Kahastok talk 17:15, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * You were pretty clear when you said that the definition and nomenclature should be based on the source. If you mispoke, the mistake is yours. What we agreed on is what you wrote, not what you have in your mind (which, as you pointed out, only you have access to). That is the status quo now. If you want to change it, you'll have to initiateAN-notice--> Kahastok talk 17:57, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Your signature
Please see WP:CUSTOMSIG/P, in particular A customised signature should make it easy to identify your username. --JBL (talk) 21:47, 22 June 2021 (UTC)


 * What's wrong with it? Doesn't it show my username to you? — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 ☎ 22:14, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Huh. It did not, but now it does (including in signatures that previously just appeared as a telephone).  Perhaps it was some weird glitch on my end?  In that case, my apologies for the pointless bother. --JBL (talk) 02:39, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
 * No worries. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 ☎ 02:43, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Regarding custom signatures, please consider not using the Unicode block you are currently using (Mathematical Bold G and others). It makes it difficult for screen readers to read your signature, and not all browsers (my phone) have the necessary fonts for it. Izno (talkon too is a trick worth keeping up the sleeve. Cheers. — [[User:Guarapiranga|Guarapiranga ☎ 21:14, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Longevity

 * What's your motivation for leaving this unsigned templated warning here, ? — Guarapiranga ☎ 10:19, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry about forgetting the sig. The template is self-explanatory. Longevity has previously been a battleground between longevity fans and those following a more encyclopedic approach to the topic. Most of the longevity fans have left (many involuntarily) but making wholesale changes to longevity articles has still received resistance from followers of the topic. In addition there has been a concerted effort to reduce the the previous proliferation of what has been termed "fanfluff" which previously pervaded the topic. Your recent edit introduced redlinks for articles that were previously deleted as part of this reduction. See the archives at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Longevity. WP:BOLD notwithstanding, in some cases it would be advisable to propose such changes on the talk page of the article or, if the changes are potentially to be made across a number of articles, at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Longevity, first.  DerbyCountyinNZ  (Talk Contribs) 10:41, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I know nothing of that history, or what "fanfluff" means, nor should I be required to. That's not the Wikipedia way. As for the redlinks, I was just following the already existing redirects pointing to the corresponding section in the List of supercentenarians by continent; they don't point back to the List of the oldest people by country, as you feared. — Guarapiranga ☎ 10:52, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I was about to give you the same notice, but I see you’ve already been notified.TFBCT1 (talk) 00:20, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * What exactly you'd like to give notice of, @TFBCT1; that an editor may not edit? My edits are evidently in wp:good faith. I may make mistakeswho doesn't?but that's a far cry from "vandalism"$[1]$. How about you point out the mistakes, orimagine that!even help correct them? When I got to these longevity pages, the tables didn't even sort correctly! — Guarapiranga ☎ 05:44, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Now that I understand your motivation, I’m sure we can work together and achieve the common goal. I thank you for your contributions.TFBCT1 (talk) 07:08, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * What happened to {{tq|I’m sure we can work together and achieve the commoage delivered to you with love by Yapperbot :) &#124; Is this wrong? Contact my bot operator. &#124; Sent at 01:31, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

August 2021 ANI discussion
There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 22:52, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Bypassing RM
Will you please stop moving pages without going the RM route. The only thing you're succeeding at, is annoying a growing number of other editors. Are you that determined to get topic-banned? GoodDay (talk) 14:26, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * What wp:policy are you basing yourself on, ? AFAIK, that's not how WP works. — Guarapiranga ☎ 22:56Log/2021 September 24]] * Pppery * it has begun... 23:36, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

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Nomination for deletion of Template:UN region
Template:UN region has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. * Pppery * it has begun... 00:03, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Template:No red link


A tag has been placed on Template:No red link requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G4 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appears to be a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion discussion, such as at Articles for deletion. When a page has substantially identical content to that of a page deleted after a discussion, and any changes in the content do not address the reasons for which the material was previously deleted, it may be deleted at any time.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the, or if you have already done so, you can place a request Yapperbot :) &#124; Is this wrong? Contact my bot operator. &#124; Sent at 18:30, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

List of countries by road network size
What did you mean by 'no data'? You have removed many countries that had most of their columns filled, and not just tiny or poor countries but also countries with plenty of data such as Austria and The Netherlands. Please add this back or at least add a referenced justification for excluding valid data in the article. Pieceofmetalwork (talk) 10:58, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, here you 'updated' data, but suddenly for example the expressway mileage of Mongolia was removed (which you removed the entire row of later anyways). Pieceofmetalwork (talk) 11:24, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Module:List of countries
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Feedback request: All RFCs request for comment
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Transclusion of table into Ages of consent by country
Hi Guarapiranga. Just to let you know your transclusion of tables into Ages of consent by country has caused a lot of cite errors. You can see these at the bottom of the article. The issue likely comes from references on the transcluded table that are defined elsewhere. If your going to transclude tables you need to make sure references are defined within the transcluded tables themselves. Thanks 92.5.2.97 (talk) 17:05, 7 July 2021 (UTC) (FYI I didn't get pings so please drop a message on my talk page if you need to reply)

what?
what were you thinking when you made ? Please don't do that.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:32, 16 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I was removing what seemed extraneous spaces in the table figures (as indicated in my edit summary). Why? — Guarapiranga ☎ 14:38, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Compare these:
 * §References before your edit
 * §References after your edit
 * You broke almost every citation template with your edit.
 * ——Trappist the monk (talk) 14:49, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Right. My mistake. I regexed it too far. Was that tone really warranted, though, mr. admin? It's evidently a good faith edit. An undo would've sufficed. — Guarapiranga ☎ 14:53, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Were I the first to see the article after your edit, I would have just reverted. I didn't because a bot and two other editors had already made fixes and changes; their work was not in error.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 15:22, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The initial edit changed many numbers and years by adding inappropriate commas to them. It broke many citation dates and also many URLs. I have had to revert to the last working version. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:29, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Population by Country Table in Demographics of Europe
I'm gonna have to request that you give a more detailed explanation of how exactly you've edited this table, and why you've done so. If it was just a mere slight formatting change I would understand, but you appear to have made a large amount of seemingly random edits to the configuration of Population & Area data for each country, to the point where I'm afraid I'm going to have to revert your edit entirely. In switching around the layout for this table, you appear to have made it so that some countries have the correct version of Pop v Area, while others have it reversed. If it were all in the wrong order, I could simply swap the column headings, but bizarrely there seems to be no discernable pattern for which ones are correct and which are not. As such I would like to request the next time you edit an article's formatting in this manner, you leave an explanation of what it is exactly you are intending to do. Thank you.

--RecycledHeroin (talk) 01:29, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Addressed in the respective talk page. I would like to request the next time you edit an article's formatting in this manner, you leave an explanation of what it is exactly you are intending to do. Was my edit summary not sufficiently clear? JohnFromPinckney had no trouble understanding it: {{tq|Cool conversion of table to use {{UN population}age delivered to you with love by Yapperbot :) &#124; Is this wrong? Contact my bot operator. &#124; Sent at 11:30, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Redlinks
Your introduction, again, of redlinks to longevity articles is not only pointless it also contradicts numerous Afds for the articles concerned (many are noted in the archives at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Longevity). The AFds were successful on the basis that 1. the proliferation supercentenarian by country articles were unjustified and that the content could be more appropriately summarised in Supercentenarians by continent; and 2. the vast majority of individual supercentenarian articles were unjustified on the basis of WP:BIO1E and/or the article contained no worthwhile encyclopedic content that was not already presented in one of the list of supercentenarians/oldest people. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 10:24, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * All this is news to me, . Calling it "pointless" is unnecessary finger wagging. Be sure my edits are in wp:good faith. I did find, however, that a number of the unlinked names did indeed have articles of their own, if not sections in their corresponding Supercentenarian by country page. As for the countries, the plan is to redirect them to the corresponding section under Supercentenarians by continent, where, as you said, it is more appropriately summarised. — Guarapiranga ☎ 10:36, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * So far you have


 * 1) attempted to introduce flags and then requested that I point out where in MOS:FLAG the appropriate section was that justified my assertion even though MOS:FLAGBIO is clear. I then wasted my time (assuming good faith that if it was in MOSFLAG you would have found it) searching the archives to find the appropriate discussion when I should not have had to
 * 2) removed "List of" from some supercentenarian articles when they are in fact clearly lists
 * 3) reformatted a list and in doing so introduced redlinks which will never be more than redirects and therefore pointless)
 * 4) reformatted articles and removed the highly relevant "living" markup and when reverted failed to return this markup to the articles
 * 5) apparently not bothered to read the archives at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Longevity despite my suggestion above that this would aid in your understanding of the history of Longevity articles and why they are as they were before you started editing them
 * 6) introduced even more redlinks as above which might have been avoided if you had read the WikiProject Longevity articles

As a result you will excuse me if my store of good faith is not particularly high. it has begun... 23:13, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
 * And several more at at Yapperbot :) &#124; Is thisbutions/Liz|Read!]] Talk! 03:42, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

ArbCom 2021 Elections voter message
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2022 candidates page
Hi! Could you tell me a bit more about this edit? I don't see anything "freezing" on Firefox. What is it trying to do? I don't think it matters hugely either way, but there are several hundred of these pages and a lot of effort has gone into giving them a consistent style. Frickeg (talk) 04:43, 21 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Sure thing, . Thanks for asking before reverting. All I did there was two things:
 * Change the party colours row to be a heading row so that Firefox (not sure about others) "freezes" that row on top of the screen along with the party names when scrolling through the table (same as here); and
 * Remove the on those rows to make them a more elegant narrow colour strip.
 * If it's a matter of consistency, and editors agree that looks better, it wouldn't be too hard to regex that out through those pages with AWB. Cheers. — Guarapiranga ☎ 04:58, 21 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for responding! Interesting, I use Firefox and I don't see the 'freezing', even when I open a private window to clear all my preferences. Oh well, as long as it works for some people!


 * I don't really have an opinion one way or another about the narrowness or otherwise of the colour strip, but I do feel very strongly that consistency across this series of pages is worthwhile. Might be worth raising on WT:AUP but then if you are happy to apply it with AWB that would be great. Frickeg (talk) 05:16, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Sure, I don't mind.
 * Oh, yeah, I just tested the page in a logged out incognito window, and the firefox feature with table head rows didn't work the same. Must be a preference or gadget... — Guarapiranga ☎ 05:45, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Found it! It's this one: — Guarapiranga ☎ 05:46, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * A lot of those unlinked candidates have WP articles, . I was in the process of disambiguiating the links. — Guarapiranga ☎ 07:33, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * OK, but most of them didn't. Disambiguate first, then link. Frickeg (talk) 07:37, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Disambiguate first, then link. How does one do that?? Don't you first need to link to then see what needs disambiguating?
 * but most of them didn't. "Most" is not all. If a single candidate has an article and is unlinked, the page is failing MOS:UL.
 * — Guarapiranga ☎ 09:17, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Template:Flaglist+link
See: User talk:Bsherr

Templates for discussion/Log/2021 July 19 is closed.

I think the deletion could be turned around if you changed the template to my idea of using an asterisk. What do you think? It is easier than removing the template from all the articles it is transcluded in.

See Deletion review. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:56, 3 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Sure, feel free to try. I had already addressed the wp:unprintworthy issue, though, and they marked for deletion anyway. Out of my hands now. — Guarapiranga ☎ 05:41, 3 August 2021 (UTC)


 * From looking at Template:Self reference am I to assume that Template:Crossreference and Template:Selfref inline also prevent text from appearing in the printable version of an article?


 * Though you may have addressed the wp:unprintworthy issue, I don't think you addressed the WP:EGG issue. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:08, 3 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The very reason for creating the template was that flag+link (or its effect generated with flagg) is an WP:EGG issue! Now, if you didn't want the template deleted, you shouldn't have voted for it. Veeery duplicitous. — Guarapiranga ☎ 21:54, 3 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The use of both the dagger and the "More" link were WP:EGG issues that several people complained about. I could tell that the template was going to be deleted unless that issue was dealt with.
 * So I suggested the asterisk solution. It solved the WP:EGG problem, and the problem of having 2 links. With the asterisk there is just one link. People do not want 2 links.
 * I voted to delete the template for the above reasons. And I provided an alternative. But you weren't interested. Maybe you thought the template would survive TFD with the "More" solution. So I understand why you weren't interested in the asterisk solution. But now that you see that the "More" solution is not supported I ask you to reconsider.
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 22:37, 3 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Maybe you thought the template would survive TFD with the "More" solution.
 * Yeah, I addressed every single issue raised: the dagger, the unprintworthiness, the WP:PEIS, etc. If they don't like the template, no one is forcing them to use it. They could even revert it in 80+ articles it's used. But, no, their issue is not with the template; it's with me.
 * Either way, what you want is a different template. Why don't you go ahead and make it? I did. — Guarapiranga ☎ 22:55, 3 August 2021 (UTC)


 * I am someone who can be paranoid at times. I think you are being paranoid. You can be very abrasive, but you do some good work. I don't think the issue in the end is personal about this template. I have a thick skin, and I think most editors who have participated in TFDs, AFDs, etc. long enough have thick skins too.
 * I don't have the skills necessary to create a new template, or to convert this template. Or I would change it myself, and take it to deletion review.
 * So I suggest you do that. Then all those list pages would not have to have the template removed. There is definitely a need for a simple flag template that uses specialty country links.
 * I could use flagg as it is being used here:
 * User:Timeshifter/Sandbox140
 * But flagg is not as simple to use as using Flaglist+link
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 23:54, 3 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Learn to code. — Guarapiranga ☎ 23:08, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm too old to learn new languages. French was hard enough. :)
 * And I have a couple other wikis to maintain.
 * Could you not copy the relevant code from what GKFX did to use the asterisk here:
 * User:Timeshifter/Sandbox140
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 00:00, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

See: All have been converted to the flagg template. --Timeshifter (talk) 10:18, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
 * User talk:Pppery
 * See: Help:Table
 * The use of {{flagg|us*eft is found with this global search within wikitext.
 * The search pulls elivered to you with love by Yapperbot :) &#124; Is this wrong? Contact my bot operator. &#124; Sent at  00:31, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of And her unborn child
Hello Guarapiranga,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged And her unborn child for deletion in response to your request.

If you didn't intend to make such a request and don't want the article to be deleted, you can [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=&action=edit edit the page] and remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. Thanks!

Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.

Adamtt9 (talk) 12:14, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

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Links to draft articles
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July 2022
Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. Regarding your edits to List of presidents of the United States, please use the preview button before you save your edit; this helps you find any errors you have made and prevents clogging up recent changes and the page history, as well as helping prevent edit conflicts. Below the edit box is a Show preview button. Pressing this will show you what the article will look like without actually saving it.

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Nomination of List of cities proper by population density for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article List of cities proper by population density, to which you have significantly contributed, is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or if it should be deleted.

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9/11 redirects
Are you planning to make redirects for 2944 names listed on the victim list? If so, can you provide where you got consensus to mass create these redirects from? PRAXIDICAE🌈 23:50, 26 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Also, please see WP:MEATBOT - you made 509 edits in a single hour, that's not counting the hundreds of useless redirects you made days ago. PRAXIDICAE🌈 00:03, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm fixing, not creating, them (it was discussed here and there). Can you provide where you got the idea that mass creating redirects requires consensus from? WP:MASSCREATION excplicitly applies to all "content pages", broadly meaning pages designed to be viewed by readers through the mainspace, including articles, most visible categories, files hosted on Wikipedia, mainspace editnotices, and portals, not redirects (which were explicitly excluded in the original discussion referred to in the policy). — Guarapiranga ☎ 00:05, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * You created them to start with, improperly restored the article and then went back and reverted the bot. Stop. It's disruptive and as it is, it's going to take massive clean up to deal with the redirects you've created out of scope. PRAXIDICAE🌈 00:06, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * A cleanup is exacty what I'm doing, after Onetwothreeip draftified the article, rendering the redirects "useless", as you said. Not sure why you say I "improperly restored the article"; Onetwothreeip only draftified it bc its new version was indeed unstable, needed to be cleaned up before republishing it, and I only restored it after doing so (please see the discussions I aforementioned). Now I'm cleaning up the redirects that were messed up bc of the draftification (a more prudent option would've been just to revert to the last stable version). Now, you sound upset, ; are you? — Guarapiranga ☎ 00:16, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * You had over 1000 creations in mainspace, with absolutely no consensus to do so in less than 60 minutes. Do you not see how this is a problem? In any case, I'm done discussing it here, you can do it at ANI. PRAXIDICAE🌈 00:20, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. PRAXIDICAE🌈 00:16, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

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"German Wine Fund" listed at Redirects for discussion
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