User talk:HNlander/Archive 1

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PA
I am not sure I understood the silliness of this edit [] and very nearly told them off, but you need to stop the accusations of racism (please read wp:npa).Slatersteven (talk) 15:40, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * So did I write something so differently that he had to respond to me in Chinese? He was already assuming I am Chinese and thus, he made the response which is in Chinese highly unfriendly. Even though he is Chinese himself, it doesn't mean he won't be racist about other Chinese. --34Unionist (talk) 15:59, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Errr, I am not sure that is even true, but if it were its an assumption to say "him speaking Chinese must be racist", it might simply (and this seems to be the case) of him saying "well I am Chinese, don't tell me what I think". I really suggest you drop this line of attack now, you never call users racist unless they say something univocally racist.Slatersteven (talk) 16:05, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Also not we are not going to be fooled by "I did not call you I called your comment racist". You might get away with it a bit longer but it will eventually be seen as disruptive. I suggest you stop trying to use accusations of racism as a debating tool.Slatersteven (talk) 16:16, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It is not a debating tool. I am protesting and I am not trying to fool anyone. You think I am going to get away with it, but I will insist on my stance next time. It was a serious accusation, but I do mean it, for I feel regretted last time in English Wikipedia, when the evil "intention" of a Chinese Wikipedian within his work was kept judging about, I didn't fight back strongly enough. Now, pathetically, it is the time when I am considered to have an evil "intention" to use racism as a line of attack. --34Unionist (talk) 16:48, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * This will be my last comment here on this Wikipedia is not a wp:battleground, serious accusations need serious evidence, and a Chinese person speaking Chinese at you is not it. If you keep on insisting "on my stance next time" you will end up with a block.Slatersteven (talk) 17:03, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I am afraid that it is not completely that issue as you said, but since he has retracted his Chinese text, there is no need to continue the debate which you would consider probably disruptive or meaningless or whatnot. Hope you have a good day. --34Unionist (talk) 01:23, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Please don’t call your fellow editors racist
Please do not attack other editors, as you did at Talk:Taiwan. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 15:43, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Why he was doing that? Did I write so differently? He treated me differently from anyone else and get sarcastic about what I said in Chinese. Is referring to my country really relevant? Why I cannot express my anger? --34Unionist (talk) 15:54, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe he was saying "I know plenty of Chinese, I even speak the language" or "I live in china I even speak the language". It is not racist to demonstrate you can speak a language (in fact it can be argued to pretty much be the opposite, shouting loudly in English as a substitute for being able to speak a language being a racist trope).Slatersteven (talk) 16:01, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't care,but I do feel humiliated by the wording and connotation in Chinese. I mean, he could have had a better way to properly address the issue, but he deliberately chose to speak in an unfriendly way, even though he did not even know me. He tried to label me as those angry Chinese who focus on small issues and compare me to past him, which I am not. It is arrogant to think that way. --34Unionist (talk) 16:26, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * So are you saying the text was insulting, would you care to provide a translation?Slatersteven (talk) 16:40, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * He has removed his Chinese text, so I don't need to protest now. What I mean is that he used some highly stigmatised word in Chinese, which he can just avoid using. I have just tried to add some historical context like in the Motherland controversy to help you understand why these terms are stigmatised or at least controversial. And he didn't even need to communicate with me in Chinese. Now he is saying my grammar is spotty, but do all English speakers use perfect grammar? I doubt it. Weren't I Chinese, he would not have judged me from that strange angle.  --34Unionist (talk) 01:17, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Nomination of Deportation of Chinese in the Soviet Union for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Deportation of Chinese in the Soviet Union is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Deportation of Chinese in the Soviet Union until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished. BlackShadowG (talk) 04:49, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Ways to improve Motherland controversy
Hello, 34Unionist,

Thank you for creating Motherland controversy.

I have tagged the page as having some issues to fix, as a part of our page curation process and note that:

"I have to say that it is odd none of this (major) incident is in the biography of the victim."

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, leave a comment here and prepend it with. And, don't forget to sign your reply with. For broader editing help, please visit the Teahouse.

Delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.

Slatersteven (talk) 12:37, 24 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Actually, it is a major section in Chinese Wikipedia entry about the victim and usually an important part of the victim's biography. There are few English articles about this event and the Chinese entry itself lacks enough references. So, it takes time to gather enough information.


 * {see more details in the talk page of the entry.}


 * I really think English readers are unfamiliar with and often ill-informed about the context and should not hesitate to draw a conclusion, especially on the complicated historical, cultural and social context in East Asia. --34Unionist (talk) 14:57, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
 * But our reader will look at our article on Ronin, and not understand an obscure usage. I also not the Japanese article also calls them "continent wanderer". Thus I would say this is too jargonistic for use in an English wiki article.Slatersteven (talk) 15:15, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed Ronin literally means wanderer. In both Chinese and Japanese, it is written as “浪人”, for both languages share the Chinese characters. But the problem is that in both languages, we don't tend to call wanderers Ronin as the term Ronin has its specific historical or cultural context. So they are not the same. Then why should we abondon the correct way to say it, but leave the wrong content there alone? The problem is Ronin is not well-interpreted here in English Wikipedia, not that what I wrote about Ronin is wrong. --34Unionist (talk) 15:29, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I know they are not the same, that is my point. The reader (who will be an English speaker this being the English wiki) will only know about the Ronin, not an colloquial terms that also use the word. We try to avoid terms that may not be easily understood.Slatersteven (talk) 17:23, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Uploading on Scribd

 * Comment: I am not very satisfied with the solution. In short, you should do one more thing. For those Russian and Chinese references that are not directly readable, you should upload the references to Scribd and place them on the discussion page for editorial review, especially the diplomatic literature from Academia Sinica (consider that non-Taiwanese cannot register). Or, as I did in the Chinese version of List of spy operations involving the Military Intelligence Bureau, post academic documents under the fair use doctrine.
 * All materials should have direct access to the website to eliminate any suspicion of falsification. -- Beta Lohman ※ Office box 07:45, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * First, I am not Taiwanese, and I can assure you that the registration for the Academia Sinica archive is not for Taiwanese only. You can gain access by just following the instructions on the website. Second, these Taiwanese sources were actually copied from the Chinese journal articles, especially Yin, Guangming (2016). "苏联处置远东华人问题的历史考察(1937—1938)" [A Historical Investigation of the Soviet Union's Handling of the Chinese Issue in the Far East (1937-1938)]. Modern Chinese History Studies (in Simplified Chinese) (2): 41, by 折毛. Since Yin, Guangming (2016)'s article has no restriction on access, you can read and check out the sources when reading it. I doubt whether 折毛 had read these sources herself. Third, I agree that all materials should be accessible and thank you for your advice on uploading files to Scribd. I will upload other files later, as per your request.--HNlander (talk) 07:59, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I am sorry but I cannot upload any file of which I have no copyright as per General Uploader Agreement on Scribd. There is no mention of fair use under the Agreement, while I am not sure whether uploading them is fair use as there is no precedent to follow. If you want to gain access to CNKI, you can try the method mentioned on Zhihu. I deleted the Russian sources to which I have no access and the rest are either registration-based or open access. The registration is just nothing but a simple email registration. The best I can do is to upload the Chinese sources with restricted access for now at https://www.scribd.com/user/586545932/hnllllandera and once discussion here is done, I will remove them from Scribd. HNlander (talk) 08:26, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I think you didn't fully understand my meaning. As I saw the other articles also cited a link via Scribd, there's no excuse that to say like you don't do that. -- Beta Lohman ※ Office box 08:39, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * But it doesn't seem to be a good practice unless these articles are uploaded by their copyright owners, according to nthe General Uploader Agreement. There is neither precedent ruling nor local convention to ensure that it is legal for me to upload the files, yet I still did this for you during the discussion. Other articles doing this doesn't mean they are right to do so. For example, I also saw some articles cite Baidu Baike but that doesn't mean Baidu Baike is a reliable source on Wikipedia.--HNlander (talk) 08:51, 27 June 2022 (UTC)


 * First, delete that message or move to here. It's difficult to focus on the further discussion. -- Beta Lohman ※ Office box 08:54, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * We can continue here, as you want.--HNlander (talk) 08:59, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Some links in Black Mafia Family. -- Beta Lohman ※ Office box 13:30, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * After the deletion discussion, the content will still be deleted as untraceable and difficult to get a direct URL.-- Beta Lohman ※ Office box 13:34, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I am sorry but I don't think it is of my responsibility to provide you with free access to these resources, although I have tried providing you with the alternative access for the time being and try to tell you how to gain access to them. If you insist on having an open access to these sources, many of the articles citing subscription-based journal articles on Nature, Science, Lancet and many other well-respected journals should be deleted in the first place, which means your claims totally make no sense. What you do could be in the grey zone, but it is not fair use unless a ruling of court says so. ---HNlander (talk) 15:59, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Please follow the rule but not what others do. As Scribd itself says, "Scribd does not evaluate claims of fair use, and must rely on the direction of a judge or other appropriate official. You may be liable for monetary damages if you use copyrighted work in a manner that is determined by a court of law to not meet the standard of Fair Use...The basic rule of thumb is, if you did not create a work yourself and you are unsure whether it is copyrighted, then do not upload it." --HNlander (talk) 16:03, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay, even I don't know how you changed the opinion so soon. But I'm going to quit my job very fast, since I was being harassed on the other wiki. Think I could leave it alone. -- Beta Lohman ※ Office box 00:53, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The only reason is that I never used Scribd. I thought you knew well about the copyright issue there but... ---HNlander (talk) 02:59, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * This is no longer the main issue. The result of deleting the discussion is predictable, and I admire your contribution, although it may be too late.-- Beta Lohman ※ Office box 03:41, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * That's okay. After deletion, I will re-write and add the content back. All the content are reliable source-backed. Add them back is not a violation of community rules. You might as well want to make another deletion request, but we can go over the issue again. Most of your claims, about the archive of your ongoing talks and about the use of Scribd, are totally wrong.---HNlander (talk) 16:11, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Please see also WP:LINKVIO, "if you know or reasonably suspect that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work"  Just ' i ' yaya  18:36, 28 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Two latest news here.
 * 1) China’s internet watchdog launches cybersecurity investigation into country’s largest academic research database CNKI
 * 2) 网络安全审查办公室对知网启动网络安全审查
 * I suggest you to save the files for long-period without deletion. If the news is right, it means the CNKI likely wouldn't keep them. -- Beta Lohman ※ Office box 15:39, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi @Beta Lohman, please don't push an agenda that is highly politicalised and clearly off-topic while we are talking about potential copyright violations. Of course, it would be a pity if CNKI removed these great copyrighted works, but what you suggest is not an acceptable way to protect these copyrighted works!
 * Without Scribd, you can still request copies of these works from me, even if they were deleted on CNKI, as I have kept them on my personal OneDrive storage. As they are actually printed works, you may still find them at your local or university libraries, or you may request a copy from their authors. Furthermore, you may even find more people who keep the digitalised copies of these works. However, it wouldn't be justifiable if you released them for free access without the consent from copyright owners. Besides, I have been recently notified that Scribd is not freely accessible for non-subscribers under some circumstances, which shows it is not even a good way to provide free access!
 * I will be most grateful to you if you can provide me with any constructive comments regarding how to improve the article, but I feel sad and sorry if you keep introducing more controversial issues that are clearly not even related to the article itself. You may discuss how Wikipedia should better archive the works cited at Village pump, where you can try to convince more people to accept your ideas about Scribd and push your agenda to change the community rules, such as previously mentioned WP:LINKVIO, and Wikipedia's guidelines regarding reliable sources, such as Reliable sources/Cost, but just not here. Thanks in advance!
 * --HNlander (talk) 18:23, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I see.-- Beta Lohman ※ Office box 04:47, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

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