User talk:Ham II/Archive 2010

Jesus categories
Did you see the next nom, which discusses renaming Category:Artistic portrayals of Jesus? I'm fine with "Jesus in art". Johnbod (talk) 18:33, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

North-South divide (Wales)
Hi Ham, it's been a long time since we discussed this, but there seemed to be a general consensus for a change of title. Unless anyone objects I'm going to make a bold move to Geography and identity in Wales and start making some radical changes along the lines we talked about many months ago.--Pondle (talk) 10:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The move sounds good, so be bold. Ham 17:34, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Pondle
Hi Ham, Just wondered - did you mean to delete the Milford Haven section from Pondle's Talk page? Daicaregos (talk) 17:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

File copyright problem with File:QueenAnnesquare cropped.jpg
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Wales flag
Thanks for your contribution to the Flag of Wales article. I've put a bit of effort into it recently, but I'm still not too happy with my edits. The problem I find is seperating the flag from the Red Dragon, do you think the articles should be merged? FruitMonkey (talk) 17:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The article's coverage is much, much better thanks to your edits! My feeling is that yes, the articles on the flag and the red dragon should be merged as they are really the same subject, and the overlap between the two articles shows how hard it is to separate the two.
 * In terms of future development, I'd like to include more on the period when the dragon was in the English royal arms and find a photo of a carved coat of arms with the supporters from a Tudor-era building. I assume they were replaced by a Scottish unicorn after the accession of James I but references would be necessary before we can add anything. Ham 17:47, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. There is a big space missing between the Tudors and the 1950s, I've been looking for a picture showing the Tudor livery. I also wonder if there are legal aspects to raising the flag, the Stars and Stripes has hundreds. I actually look at the US flag page with dismay, its great; but if we link the Red Dragon and the flag, it opens the floodgates to start showing the absorption of the flag into every day Welsh life. I'll put a note on the Welsh WikiProject to see how it goes down with others. FruitMonkey (talk) 19:28, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * This appears to be the standard Henry VII had blessed at Saint Paul's; perhaps we could get the WP Image Lab to redraw it later on. The best I can find Tudor arms-wise at the moment is this, where the dragon is gold, but maybe the Heraldry WikiProject could point us in the direction of some red ones – I'm sure I saw a bright tomato-red one in a documentary on somewhere in England once. (It looks as if Carl Lofmark, A History of the Red Dragon (1995) is the main book to get on this subject – and 3 copies are going for 9p on Amazon!) I hope the flag hasn't got copyright restrictions, but I see the 1953 royal badge and the WAG logo, which I was hoping to use, are under copyright. Agreed on the floodgates point; I've been agonising over whether Idris the Dragon and Ness's tattoo in Gavin and Stacey are worthy of inclusion... ;) Ham 20:47, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads up, I've just bought one of the books. Hopefully it will give some more info. I can't see the flag as copyright as it should surely be owned by the country, who would bring action? The South African flag is used everywhere without anyone attacking free-use, and that's a fairly new invention. FruitMonkey (talk) 21:08, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Mahon
Hopefully your grammar will be better than mine in the edit summary! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.204.247 (talk) 18:31, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the references. Makes the article better :) Bjmullan (talk) 19:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * My pleasure! Ham 19:55, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That British Isles is controversial in Ireland is totally irrelevant. If you look at Bjmullan and his edits you'll see he removes British Isles in numerous subjects. His motivation is not so much to improve the text but more to drive home his own politics. Your edit I think imporves the situation and unlike Mullan yours is not motivated by anything other than subject improvement. Mullan is not right because his motivation is wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.204.247 (talk) 20:14, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I expect "his own politics" are quite mainstream in Ireland. I know "British Isles" doesn't have to imply British ownership of / superiority to Ireland but would you think that way if you were Irish, or would you see it as a biased phrase? Yes, Great Britain is the biggest island in the archipelago and therefore gives its name to it, but that's too pedantic to dissuade people (whose sense of their independence from the UK is in no way unfounded) who instinctively find something wrong with the phrase. What looks like bloody-minded nationalism in one country often isn't so in another. What matters is that we improved the article. Ham 20:39, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well I thought you'd improved it but I've now read the reference, and guess what, it states British Isles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.204.247 (talk) 20:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Our phrasing is an improvement on theirs, then. Ham 21:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well no! First off, you don't really want to be drawn into this vile British Isles "dispute" do you? If you do, I should point out that one of the most sought after requirements of those that remove British Isles is the need to adopt precise text from references. I see your reference actually uses the phrase "British Isles" so it should be put into the text of the article. I'll do it if you like. MidnightBlue   (Talk)  19:44, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Please read all the relevant text in the reference:
 * In 1999, at age 89, he donated his vast collection to various public museums in the British Isles and Italy. [But it goes on:] His donations included: twenty-six works went to the National Gallery, London, five to the Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery, six to the Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge, eight to the National Gallery of Scotland, one to Temple Newsam in Leeds, 12 to the Ashmolean in Oxford, a number to the National Gallery of Ireland, Dublin and the Pinacoteca Nazionale, Bologna.

Based on that, I have written Mahon donated his entire art collection to various museums in the United Kingdom, the Pinacoteca Nazionale in Bologna and the National Gallery of Ireland in Dublin, thus avoiding using a phrase that had sparked an edit war. I think it a pretty precise adaptation of the text in the reference. Ham 20:15, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
 * And I agree and support your edit. People must remember not to mix geographical terms with political terms. This is a encyclopaedia after all. Bjmullan (talk) 20:24, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yep, it's an encyclopedia alright, but I see no political terms here. Since when, tell me, is the policy to avoid phrases that spark edit wars? Mister Flash (talk) 15:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You want edit wars? I don't. Ham 17:51, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You don't adapt terms in references, you put em in verbatim! Mister Flash (talk) 15:54, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Using different phrasology is the usual way of avoiding plagiarism, so no. Here I was also rephrasing to suit the sensibilities of a group of readers on the English Wikipedia, the Irish. There is nothing anti-British in the phrasing I substituted it with. Ham 17:51, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Dragon on Coat of Arms
Hi, I was browsing User:FruitMonkey's talk page and saw your thoughts about an image of the royal coat of arms with a dragon. How's about this http://image18.webshots.com/18/9/43/41/2897943410041465975JMclIO_fs.jpg ? It is the entrance to Sherborne School Dorset, which was (re-)founded in 1550 by Edward VI. Hope this helps, I've left a similar message for FruitMonkey. Mbwa mwitu (talk) 14:46, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Excellent find, thanks! The sculpture doesn't look 16th-century to me so it might be best to check the Dorset volume of The Buildings of England for the date; from this I would say the building's 19th- or early 20th-century Gothic Revival. If that were explained in the caption a cropped version could indeed be included on Flag of Wales. What's the copyright status of the photo? Ham 08:51, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I have no answers to any of your questions, but I hope you can follow the lead to get what you want. Best of Luck Mbwa mwitu (talk) 18:42, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I have, following our exchanges above, recently had the opportunity to take this photo (File:SherborneSchoolArmsPainted.jpg) and upload it. I have appended some notes and you could also look at http://www.pastscape.org.uk/hob.aspx?hob_id=199461&sort=1&type=abbey&class1=Religion&period=None&county=Dorset&place=&yearfrom=ALL&yearto=ALL&recordsperpage=30&source=text for some history of Sherborne School and it's relationship to the Abbey.

If you paste "50.946692, -2.516154" into Google Maps and then go to StreetView you will see another version of this coat of arms (almost exactly the same but not coloured) just around the corner from the photo I have taken. This time carved into the wall of the adjoining abbey (below the sun-dial) in a part of the building that was (I believe) used as the headmaster's original residence. It is now part of the abbey again (the Lady Chapel?!). Very close to this is an inscribed date of 1561 (possibly 1567...?!). Get back to me if you want photos of this.

Happy Birthday
'''Wishing User: a very happy birthday on behalf of the Birthday Committee! Armbrust Talk  Contribs  01:32, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Happy Birthday!
I hope that this is of use! Mbwa mwitu (talk) 19:47, 4 May 2011 (UTC)