User talk:Ham II/Archive 2013

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Virgin of the Rocks
Ham, please don't reinforce that which is merely a theory by stating it as fact.

One of the problems in dating the two paintings is that a previous director of the National Gallery had the theory that the painting in France must have been done in Florence because of the emphasis on John the Baptist. Leonardo then took it to Milan. OK! This demands that we believe that he turned up there with a random painting that he had made, at the same time as he was failing to deliver on an existing major commission, and that the painting was just the right shape (give or take a centimetre or two) to fit an existent huge gilt altarpiece. He then got himself in a fit of pique and took it away again.

The director (I'll come up with his name in a minute) bludgeoned Kenneth Clark into accepting that the Louvre painting was the earlier, but Clark would never agree that it was painted in Florence prior to Leonardo's first stay in Milan. Once Clark had made a decidedly grudging agreement, the story was elaborated, and it is now stated with total authority that Leonardo painted the Louvre picture first, took the painting away and painted a replacement. There is, in fact, no evidence for this whatsoever. All the evidence points to the London painting having been delivered on time (for the Feast of the Immaculate Conception) but somewhat unfinished. Leonardo then for 20 years chased the Confraternity for the balance of his money. The Confraternity stated that the painting wasn't "finished" and refused to pay. At no time did the Confraternity chase Leonardo for delivery of said painting. What was probably meant by "unfinished" was that the final lacquering and gilding hadn't happened. It has always been observed that the cross and haloes were added after the painting. These are the "finishing touches" and would have been expected by the confraternity. In practice, the presence of details in gold leaf was almost always written into contracts and payed for as an item. Without these details, the painting was "unfinished". They were probably added by the de Predis, perhaps without even taking the painting out of its frame.

What I want to emphasise here is that the dating of the paintings and the explanation are in the first instant an opinion and in the second a myth.

Meanwhile, the Louvre is only too happy to go along with the version of event promulgated by the National Gallery. If the National Gallery says that the Louvre has the original, then why should they argue? But why the presence of the fleur de lys instead of lilium candidum in the Louvre painting hasn't jumped out and poked some French art historian in the eye is something that has never ceased to amaze me!

Anyway, I thought that at the time of the exhibition the National Gallery was about to challenge the dating, based on all the important evidence that they found in the restoration. But no... they were not prepared to disturb the status quo. Perhaps because it is not good for the reputation of a previous director (Sir Martin Davies is the name I'm looking for) or of the National Gallery which has supported the foolishness for fifty years. I am amazed at how the evidence of the recent restoration and investigation has been warped to fit into a pre-existent mould, with Luke Syson making ridiculous airy-fairy comments about Leonardo's inventiveness in creating narcissus with five petals (instead of six) and a lily thing straight from the pages of the Voynich manuscript.

This went up just before the exhibition opened: Leonard da Vinci and the Virgin of the Rocks

Amandajm (talk) 01:33, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * OK, "generally considered the earlier of the two" it is then! I'm too busy on a rewrite of Madonna of the Yarnwinder to do much work on Virgin of the Rocks (nor does it need that – but the reference to the London exhibition in the present perfect progressive tense in the lede had to go), but Tamsyn Taylor's arguments are rather convincing. Ham 11:16, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, the "London exhibition" definitely had to go. I didn't get there unfortunately. I went to see the movie. The best part was an interview with Fiona Shaw on the subject of the Salvator Mundi. The rest was mostly nonsense.
 * Amandajm (talk) 01:46, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

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Madonna of the Yarnwinder
Well done! Has it expanded enough for a DYK? The thieves saying they were the police as they went out the window would be a good hook. Amandajm (talk) 11:50, 29 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the suggestion; that didn't really cross my mind! We'll see how the nomination does here. Ham 13:13, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Madonna of the Yarnwinder
Hello! Your submission of Madonna of the Yarnwinder at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Allecher (talk) 02:11, 8 February 2013 (UTC)


 * It is important that you stop by the page and communicate your expansion plans there, as the article is still over 3,000 prose characters short of the DYK required minimum, given the size of the pre-existing article before you started the expansion. Please do so right away. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:59, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

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Category:Things named after Leonardo da Vinci
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Mona Lisa replicas and reinterpretations
Thanks for your interest and input. Yes, I'd questioned my own use of the ampersand in the title; thanks for settling that for me! Another point I'd been troubled by from the start: INFO BOX. I hate the way there's immediately just one solo sample up-front like that, without some proper boxed-overview of the article; I think an INFO BOX often makes-the-page somewhat. Are you aware of one which might be suitable there? OR, is there a simple way to compose a custom info box? Meanwhile I'm on standby for further DYK-related revisions. Penwatchdog (talk) 13:21, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for tolerating the change – ampersands really get my goat! I can't think of any infoboxes that fit the bill, and I'm not really a believer in infoboxes for infoboxes' sake. If you feel a replicas infobox would add anything then you're welcome to create one at Category:Arts and culture infobox templates, but I can't advise on how to make one. (Sorry!) Ham 14:42, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Hello
Hi, can help me to improve these items, thank you: Tríptico de Nava y Grimón, Museo Municipal de Bellas Artes de Santa Cruz de Tenerife.--81.34.255.96 (talk) 17:03, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

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Listed buildings in Wales
Thank you for going through and adding all the images! KTC (talk) 20:37, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * My pleasure! :) Ham 20:39, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

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Talkback
KTC (talk) 11:05, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

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WikiMeet Cardiff 2
Er gwybodaeth. WikiMeet Cardiff 2, 1.11.13.--Rhyswynne (talk) 15:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Diolch! Mae fy enw i lawr. Ham 19:03, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Newydd gael gwybod bod lle wedi ei neilltuo ar ein cyfer fyny'r grisiau. --Rhyswynne (talk) 09:47, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

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November 2013
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Westminster and listed buildings
Thanks for catching the mistake, I was going straight from the pictures. Nev1 (talk) 20:03, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Would you wish to copy the article over to London Wiki on Wikia? Jackiespeel (talk) 13:54, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

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