User talk:Hariboneagle927/2019/October

Articles "Gilas Pilipinas Men" and "Gilas Pilipinas program"
Greetings! I would like to seek your inputs as to how to resolve dispute concerning several Wikipedia articles related to Gilas Pilipinas and the Philippine national basketball teams (men's, women's, cadets, etc). I have received a message from new contributor Gilaska Ace asserting that the article "Gilas Pilipinas Men's" (women's, cadet, etc.) should be redirected to "Philippine men's national basketball team" (and its women's, cadet, etc. counterpart articles) because the respective subject is one and the same. Further, the article "Gilas Pilipinas program" should be deleted. So as to give you a clear picture, here are his words verbatim:


 * It's such an unnecessary page that you created. By creating this page, you're telling readers that the Philippines men's national basketball and Gilas Pilipinas Men are two different teams when they're not. The "Gilas program" as a whole was only the original Gilas, the so-called "Gilas 1.0" when the all-amateur model was used. After that got scrapped the "program" was just the national team itself. There was nothing different done. Therefore, even the Gilas Pilipinas program page is redundant and useless. Gilaska Ace (talk) 19:58, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I responded as follows:


 * Yes, the articles "Gilas Pilipinas Men's" and "Philippine men's national basketball team" should be treated as two separate articles. The "Philippine men's national basketball team" covers the entire history of the Philippine men's national team since the 1910's. While Gilas Pilipinas Men's (originally known as Smart Gilas) is the current program in place since 2010. This development could still change in the future, in the event Gilas Pilipinas Men's is replaced by a new program, just like with past programs which had its brief tenure as the men's national team (Northern Cement, Team Pilipinas). As for the article "Gilas Pilipinas program", the article was created to reflect the changes made by the Samahang Basketbol ng Pilipinas in May 2019, when it was announced that the name "Gilas Pilipinas" henceforth encompasses SBP's programs for men's, women's, youth, etc. iamdumdum (talk) 08:36, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

His/her response was:


 * You still don't get it do you? It still doesn't warrant an entire page to itself. "Gilas" IS the national team. In fact it is now nickname of all national teams. Just the because there is a supposed "program" in place doesn't mean you need to create separate page. More so a page where you can't even explain especially with sources what the program is. The only time there was something different was the so called Gilas 1.0 where the all amateur model was used again and the team competed as a club team, developmental team and it competed as the national team. After 2012 that model died and the national team aka Gilas was just any other national team setup. Trying to create a separate page means there is something out of the ordinary. You're also telling the readers it is separate entity/team when it's not. Just because the SBP made changes to the name of "Gilas" again doesn't warrant an entire article. Having a nickname and a sponsor doesn't warrant a separate page. And no you're wrong,"Gilas Pilipinas Men" doesn't represent the national team, beacuse it IS the national team. "Gilias Pilipinas" men is not separate team or entity. That logic that you're trying to put forward is like saying the Azkals currently represent the men's national football team or the Qantas Socceroos currently represent the Australia's men's national football team when that is wrong. Gilaska Ace (talk) 11:01, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

As you are one of the contributors, your comments (and intervention) as to how this should be resolved is much valued. Cheers and thanks. iamdumdum (talk) 15:13, 11 September 2019 (UTC)


 * My opinion would be a Gilas Pilipinas Men's article would be warranted if all of its content would place WP:UNDUE weight to the contemporary events relating to the team which would pose WP:RECENTISM issues. Ideally more detailed information on the national team would go to the Gilas Pilipinas Men program article and just summary of would go to the history portion of the main article. The confusion might have been arised when the SBP consolidated the Gilas Pilipinas program and included the women's and 3x3 teams under its scope. Said article was originally named Gilas Pilipinas program so it was clear that it was about program and not just the team. Though I think "Gilas Pilipinas Men represent the current men's national team." should go, because Gilas are really the national team and mention that the team is officially nicknamed as such.Hariboneagle927 (talk) 11:33, 13 September 2019 (UTC)


 * The root of all confusion/mess is because of the usage of the term "program". Due to that people, mainly fans and followers think there is something separate from the national team when there clearly isn't. Whenever officials of Philippine basketball use the term "program", they're just simply referring to national teams in general. If it's the the "men's program" for example, then it simply means the men's national team. There is nothing separate that is being done or anything else out of the ordinary from any other national team setup. Having said that, the San Miguel-Team Pilipinas page is also completely unnecessary. Just because it was sponsored just the current national team is, and it was labeled as the "Team Pilipinas Program" (again with the usage of "program") doesn't mean it was a separate team from the national team when it was the national team and that anything significantly different was done compared to any other national team setup. I will reiterate, the only time anything different was done was from the 2009-12 period which I've already mentioned before when the all-amateur model was brought back (NCC setup). Even then, it doesn't warrant a separate page. It should just be part of the history section. With the way the pages are being created it's as if every time the national team has a new sponsor, it automatically means there is a new "program" therefore a new page should be created. There's no logic in that. Gilaska Ace (talk) 16:35, 16 September 2019 (UTC)


 * I hear your concern. From what I understand "program" is an attempt to define a certain point in the history of the national team. Probably a separate History of the Philippines men's national basketball team article could be put in place to somehow merge the several different "programs" of the national team and a summary of the history of the national team on the main article as I proposed before. (See also Category:History of association football by national team).


 * What I see how the current setup is a problem, is fans searching for Gilas Pilipinas gets redirected to the "program" page when the intention may have been looking for the article of the national team and its whole history. In relation to this redirected Gilas Pilipinas to the men's team as a remedy, since even though officially the Samahang Basketball ng Pilipinas consolidated its national teams management into one "Gilas Pilipinas brand/program", "Gilas" primarily still refer to the men's team.Hariboneagle927 (talk) 01:12, 18 September 2019 (UTC)


 * For the most part I agree with your understanding about the term "program" being a certain point in history (or better term would be "era") of the national team. The thing is, "Gilas" isn't just a point or era of the national team, it is now formally the nickname of all national teams.


 * Having said that, I would also like to say that the article Gilas Pilipinas program is not only unnecessary but shouldn't have been created to begin with. As I've mentioned and will reiterate, "Gilas" was just that 2009-12 period but the name was retained after that for the men's team. Therefore, all these different sponsored iterations of national teams should only be part of the history section. If anyone wants to create a separate page for the men's national team then I have no problems with that at all. Even if that doesn't get created, pages such as the San Miguel-Team Pilipinas need to either be deleted or redirected to the men's national team page. The only one worthy of being kept is the NCC team page as it was also a club which notably competed in the PBA. Gilaska Ace (talk) 07:14, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

fix pfl page as it was wrong..... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.106.177 (talk) 21:36, 17 October 2019 (UTC)