User talk:Hariunni

Welcome to Wikipedia!!!
Dear Mr Hari Unnithan, I have a doubt about your article on PGN Unnithan. Since your from Mavelikara i guess you are in some way related to him. Nevertheless, from what i know he belonged to the Edassery Pattathil House of Mavelikara. Illikulam was the name of the family in Cheriyanadu that his sister married into. My family know her daughters Sarvamangala Kunjamma, Malathy Kunjamma etc who stayed in Cheriyanadu.

Kindly verify about the Diwans family. And if you could help me, could you please give me some history of Illikulam House. It so happens they are a branch of the Kaduvinal Unnithans of Cheriyanadu. This house plays an important part in the history of our family, Mulavely. Try finding out some information regarding Illikulam. Thanks - Manu

Hello. Well i know the name of the Unnithan whom the Dewans sister married. Incidentally he was also a PGN Unnithan. Narayanan was the N. No idea about PG. He was the first President of the Ariunnissery Karayogam in Cheriyanadu whereas my great grandfather was the secretary. Perhaps you can ask your aunt Malathi Kunjamma about Mulavelil Panicker Sir, he was a school headmaster there. Infact when they started the Karayogam he and PGN Unnithan (from Illikulam) were the only two people in Cheriyanadu who knew English etc. Anyways we sort of have a relation with Illikulam, a long forgotten one. Ask Ur aunt PLEASE if she has heard any story of the Bhrasthu Unnithan of Kaduvinal.

Actually when they started the Karayogam thing, they wanted to name it Madhava Vilasom, after my great grandad. But he said that he wasnt even from Cheriyanadu (it was his wifes house) and so he suggested Malathi Kunjamma's fathers Star name. Hence the Karayogam building was named Visaka Vilasom..

As for Thottamon Unnithan, i think Illikulathu PGN Unnithan's mom was from there. Actually the story is that PGN Unnithan's uncle (Kaduvinal Unnithan) wanted him to marry his daughter. Instead he married Dewan PGN Unnithans sister. Hence the uncle totaly disowned him or something and gave him no share in the property. Then he himself secured the vast landed areas he had and by the 20th century became the richest guy in Cheriyanadu.Manu

hello. Well Illikulathu is supposed to be a Thavazhi of Kaduvinal. Ya maybe the Kaduvinal Unnithan was the paternal uncle or sumthing. But are the children of two brothers allowed to intermarry? anyways rather confusing id say.

Unnithans being so few in number, it will be easy to find their family names, in a manner of speaking. Yes I have heard about all the Kunjammas from my grandmother, Sarasamma (Saraswathi Amma). Her brother Prof. Raghavan Pillai (now 87 years of age) knew Sarvamangala Kunjamma etc through school or sumthing. He has even stayed at Illikulam once.

Kaduvinal has one more Thavazhi that is non existant now. They were Ariunni Panickers (Unnithans). Cheriyanadu was ruled by a Maran family called Mulavely near the Subramanyam Temple there till 1746. Then a branch of the Kalkulath Kurup House somewhere near Kottayam was sent by Marthanda Varma to rule Cheriyanadu. They were the Kaduvinal Unnithans and they got their deity (Durga,, which became Bhadra. They used to call it Chakulath Amma, though it has nothing to do with the Chakulath Kavu). Similarly, one child of Kaduvinal became brashthu by eating with a Maran from Mulavely House. She was then adopted into Mulavely in Ariunnissery where Ariunni Panicker lived. As her share from Kaduvinal they gave her a temple. Thus the Mulavely Devi is said to be the younger sister of the Kaduvinal Devi. And the Bhrashthu Unnithan lived and the present family is her descendants. In short, Mulavely, to which i belong, is also a family that has descended from a polluted girl of Kaduvinal. That is why both the temples of both families are of same age, same deity, same name. And behind our temple there was a plot that we never used coz it was said that our deity would go to meet her sister at Kaduvinal etc.

Ask Illikulath Kunjammmas if they have heard this tale by any chance. Incase you get anything you can even email me at dark_voldemort2000@yahoo.com Thanks - Manu

Doubt
Hello Again mr unnithan...i have a slight doubt regarding unnithans and i guess i can ask u....i was told by my grandmother that there are differences within the unnithan community...she cited an example stating that the sister of PGN Unnithan, Parukutty Kunjamma, married to Illikulathu PGN Unnithan wasnt allowed to enter the kitchen of her husbands house...if u know anything regarding these differences, kindly leave a reply on my talk page..and btw what i found out was that Illikulathu Unnithan\s father was from Thotaman, not his mom as u said, she belonged to the Kaduvinal family.Manu

Hello Sir
Hey thanks for the reply...ive found u on orkut as well...sent a friend req...anyways, the bhrasthu i mentioned, i have been lucky in tracing the family of our unnithan ancestress. She belonged to a family from Karakkad called Kutungal. have u perhaps heard of this house? Assuming that Unnithans being such a small class, all these families must intermarry etc.

Yes i have heard the Illikulathu Unnithan was a BA.BL. My grandmother still tells me how he was too proud to apply for any service or job, which certainly in those days, with his degrees, would be anyhow of high calibre. Nevertheless i shall verify his name again. But it seems possible because the original "Kudumbam" of Kaduvinal and Illikulathu in Cheriyanadu was called Pudduperakkal. It was a three acre plot actually in the middle of our family estate and their family is said to have stayed there once. This Puduperrakal was the only house where from the temple, for some ritual called "Parah Idiyal" the Temple Parah used to be brought right till the Pumukham. As of now, it passed in the 50s i believe to their Kudiyans. But their Kudumbam house was known as Pudperrakal.

Well i must correct you regarding the Nair subcastes u mentioned. Kiriyathil Nairs are entirely absent, or so says the Travancore State Manual, in Travancore. Unnithans were considered above the normal illathu Nairs. Marriages with members of Illams was not the criteria to become an Illathu. Tenants of an Illam were Illathu Nairs and the more powerful among them were the Unnithans, Pillais, Valiathans etc. Swaroopathil people were low actually as they were servants to Kshatriyas. Anyhow Unnithan is a title given to descendants of princes. Say, if a prince married an Illathu lady, his descendants would be Illathu Unnithans. If he married an Edassery Nair then his descendants would be Edassery Unnithans. But ofcourse the information given by u also needs to be researched. Nobody can be too sure regarding the truth in these old things and so u may be right.

I remember u said u were collecting names of Unnithan families. You know, im certain, of the still existing Unnithan families of Cheriyanadu- Puduperrakal Kaduvinal (included Illikulam), Mouthathu. But my grandmother tells me there was another Unnithan house which is now extinct in the sense that a time came when there was no Kunjamma in this house to continue the family and hence the Nair sons of a male member continued the family. Thus they lost their Unnithan title and the family became extinct. The name of this family is Puthur Unnithan.

I believe Malathy Kunjamma's son studied with my aunt Indira Devi in Jabalpur University in the early 70s. He is in Dubai now i believe. Speaking of Panicker Sir, he was actually not a member of our family, but he came to Cheriyanadu through marriage. His wife, Kalyani Amma, is my great grandmother of the Mulavelil family, which, as i said, are descendants of the Bhrasthu Kunjamma from Kutungal. Members of my grandmother's generation are aware of this Bhrasthu tale and often the servants in our family went on saying that the reason my ancestors were fair etc was because of that Unnithan descent. When the caste system did exist, our family did take great pride because of this descent.

BTW is there a family called Thottathil Unnithans? My paternal great grandmother is from that house. I must ask you about these documents you possess of ur family. Was it in possession of the Mallasseril Family or did you get it somewhere else? I believe there is a Kerala State Archive at Trivandrum which holds a great deal of "Olais" which give information on how much land was possessed by various families etc. I have also reason to believe that the Travancore Census reports contains detailed info on various Nair subcastes and perhaps also accounts of aristocratic families. These can be found at the Kerala Council for Historical Research, Vylopilly Samskriti Bhavan, Trivandrum. I am highly interested in visiting Trivandrum for detailed investigation into our family histories but since im only 17 im not allowed to go anywhere or do anything. Gets frustrating at times.

I am seriously trying to trace the origins and details of our Kunjamma ancestor, with whom came our temple, but a major problem is lack of documents and resources. I donot know how reliable it would be but someone suggested i get some astrologers to do something called a "Prashnam". Kindly enquire with your elders if they perhaps are aware of this Kutungal family and do let me know about those documents. U can contact me on orkut also. Thanks a lot

O and PS: Is Pattaveetil their Tharavad name? I was under the impression that it was some title of nobility. And is there any member of the Thottamon family who own a factory at a place called Kunnath or something?? And i saw ur website after a search on google..Is Thankal also an Unnithan title? Because the Kutungal family i mentioned are known by us as "Kutungal Than".Also u seem to be very interested in ur family tree. If you wish you could make your family tree on www.tribalpages.com. Its an excellant website. You can view my own family tree therein at mulavelil.tribalpages.com. It is password protected and u need to enter manupillai to view my site. You can also add pics etc on it. Check it out ThanksManu

Unnithans
Hey, Ok let me start with a wow! How do u know so much? Im entirely startled at the amount of info u seem to know. Kudos to you sir for all that uve managed to collect.

Correcting myself with the Kiriyath Thing, i went through the Travancore State Manual again and it states that they "belong more to Malabar and Cochin than to Travancore". So it appears that a few cases might have existed in Travancore as you mentioned. I have a doubt through. Assuming that they are so few in number, do their women consort only with Brahmins? Or are there enough number of other Kiriyathil Families? Do you know any Kiriyathil families other than Mallasseril? Btw check out the Kiryathil Nair article. It states their origin as mentioned in the Keralolpathi.

I didnot state that Valiathans lived in Illams. And when i say tenants of an illam, i refer to the old land organisation of Kerala wherein every Nair landholder had to pay atleast 1/10th of his produce from the land to either the local Brahmin family or temple which was known as Micchavaram. Speaking of that, Ilikulathu Unnithan paid his Michavaram to the Mootadath Madhom as well as the Cheriyanadu Temple for some lands. Thats what i mean by the term tenants. As for Nairs who had no "Nelam" or wet lands for paddy or other cultivation, they merely had to serve in the houses of the local Nair Lords and the Brahmin families instead of paying Michavaram. Michavaram is different from Pattam. Michavaram is paid by landholders who are not complete owners of the land and in whose land the local Brahmins or the temple have a small right.

So the only Valiathan families in the whole of Travancore are the ones you mentioned? Thats interesting. And now it seems Nagam Aiyas book might not be all that reliable after all. Maybe i should get Velu Pillai around as well before concluding on such things. And speaking of Sambandhams, ur right.

Ah so the Edassery Pattaveetil family have nothing to do with Edassery Nairs at all! As for the relation with Ramiyyen Dalawa, it now appears that he must have had two wives in Mavelikara then. Because after the death of his Brahmin wife, my Travancore state manual (which now i understand may not always be reliable) states he married a poor dependant of his who couldnt even pay her taxes entirely. That family was supposed to get an allowance of paddy per month from the government till the early 20th century also i believe. But that surely doesnt seem to be anybody from the Edassery house because my grandmother particularly states that the Edassery family was the wealthiest house in Mavelikara. So again, perhaps, Nagam Aiya has made a mistake.

And Parukutty Kunjamma belonged to the Pattaveetil Sakha of Edassery? Is that why we know her as Edassery Pattaveetil Parukutty Kunjamma. So now things become clear. And the puthur sakha? Is it the one i mentioned which is said to have existed in Cheriyanadu??

My grandmother enquires by the way how Malathy Kunjamma is keeping. I told her, as u informed me, that she was ill. Yes, i think its the same son of Malathy Kunjamma who studied with my aunt. You can ask him i guess. Her name is Indira Devi, married to Sabarsingh Mandloi.

Thanks again and do find out if you know anything about the Kutungal family. Ive been obsessed with that Bhrasthu story since ages and would be really elated if anything could be found about that family. Did you see my date of birth on orkut? Hehe, maybe its with my age, but i didnt bother to read the terms and conditions of tribalpages at all. Just agreed and went on with my tree.

So the records you possess are from your great grandad? And thanks for all that info on edassery pattaveetil. My aunt stays in Mavelikara and ive passed the Edassery Kavu there on a few occasions. Infact once while in Mavelikara i had decided that id go and meet Sarvamangala Kunjamma but then thought the better of it. I mean, she doesnt even know me.

Its nice to know that atleast some people have bothered to maintain old records. My grandmother tells me that there were a large number of Olas in our house which were destroyed in a fire. Then my great great great grandmother personally wrote everything again. And those olas were deliberately thrown away by my grandad who didnt see much importance in it. Sad.

Again im amazed that you know history of your and allied families from as early as the 8th century AD. the earliest i know of my moms family is in the 16th century. My dads dad is descendant of one of the Ettuveetil Pillamar. Although they were all killed and their women enslaved, two women are said to have escaped from whom two families have descended. One of them is my grandads.

Thanks for the info. I am really amazed at the amount of information you know. I will have to make up my mind to visit Trivandrum atleast once for atleast a week just to check out if at all anything can be found from the old archives and libraries there. And the land agreement registers etc. Thanks again and convey my regards to your family. And i asked about the Kunnam factory out of sheer interest. While discussing with my grandma regarding the aristocratic families around cheriyaandu, she had mentioned Thottamon and this family with the factory. In a good sense let me tell you, that my moms first 'wedding alochana' was with somebody with a claim in that factory from Thottamon. She doesnt remember his name though.

Manu

From manu
Hey, Well firstly, speaking of Ambalavasis i went and created the article under some misinformation which now i realise is nonsense. I have been trying to correct the Brahmin part of the Ambalavasi article for quite some time now. But since the person currently editing it insists tht they were all Brahmins etc ive lost interest in convincing him. Actually Marans are not ambalavasis. They are "Inferior to Ambalavasis but superior to the Sudras" as per the TSM. That explains why all "good nairs" needed a Maran to sprinkle water over them for "Shuddhi". Even the poonol wearing Ambalavasis, although today they all claim to be Brahmins, are not Brahmins really. They were degraded Brahmins who were permitted to keep their thread and follow Brahmin customs but prevented from any religious learning. Eg it may sound weird but the job of Nambiyathis was to clean the temple yard of the faeces of dogs etc. So although they wore the thread they were not considered Brahmins.

Again the Unnithan Samantha Kshatriya thing was a misunderstanding. If u have noticed for quite some time the Samanthan article doesnt include them. I edited out all that. Though some other users keep adding em on and on again. And Nambiars- the poonool wearing ones were ambalavasis while the non poonool guys are kiriyam nairs.

Where did u read the family history actually? do u mean the part on the website about the family on the main page? do tell me so i can explain in detail. well the chronology is from whtever ive learnt from my senior family members. panicker sirs father was from the Kakakuzhiyil family of Mangalam who were famous moneylenders. They apparently got upto 100000 parahs of pattom etc. Again speaking of Marans, check out the Maaran article. I made it wit whatever info i could collect from the books i do have. Even in our family, my great grandmom of Mulavelil was an Orunul, the highest type who were considered at par with Illathu Nairs while the popular Panicker sir was actually inferior to her in matter of caste. Again my own grandad is inferior in matter of caste to my grandma while my dad is an illathu nair.

Well the ettuveetil pillamar, yeah there wre very few records. The building u said in trivandrum ramanamadhom and the other one is theverathukoikal. they were both built from wood and material after ravaging the houses of the pillamar. And i didnt really get what u meant regarding links to spouses. I mean ive added whatever i know about the spouses but not too much in detail.

Yes i know the vadugathil family. Do u have any info regarding the Kaduvinal family? as in their origin etc? I went there last month with my grandmother to meet Lalithambika Kunjamma, whose hunsband Kaduvinal Parameshwaran Unnithan, studied with my grandmother. Ofcourse my grandmother had never been there before. I dragged her with me so that i could see their old nalu kettu. If you do know anything on Kaduvinal do tell me. After all, the temple at Mulavelil and that at Kaduvinal are the same. This make me to believe that they have some connection with the Kutungal family of Karackad. That family in turn, it is not confirmed, is said to have originated from some Kalkulathu Kurup family at Changanssery.

As for Jagathi, it is my belief his mother belonged to Cheriyanadu. She was actually married to some1 else earlier from where while she was on the way to buying vegetables she was forcefully taken away by jagathis dad to trivandrum etc. Funny stories some. And btw the passowrd of the family website is now karackad.

Well if its malayalam its going to be difficult. Yes i seriously need to visit trivandrum sumtime. And aunt of mine stays there. she is a scientist at some cancer research centre there. I have other frnds also. I will manage it probably. And honestly this talk isnt boring at all. Its quite interesting. But do try to see if any information on kaduvinal or kutungal is available. It would be a great help to me. I infact did visit Karackad but was not permitted by my grandmother to go to the Kutungal house. well the reason is that besides the story and our temple there isnt any hard evidence to my tales. But next time i surely will go there. It is quite possible some of them will remember the tale. They were on the losing side after all, they lost a girl which would be a great disaster in those days.

U mentioned that Thottamon was a branch of Kunnath Than- a Kiriyam family. But Thottamon is an Illam family. Ok in that case i guess your definition of Kiriyam, Illam etc must be right. I mean that perhaps among such aristocratic families it was the marital relations that gave rise to subcaste while tenants and servants of Illams were also called the same name. Things are clearer now.

U said that Ramanamadhom Pillai was supposed to be a Potti as per recent research. Well i have read somewhere that there was a time when the title of Pillai was used by Brahmins as well. Besides even around 1810 a Brahmin got himself invested with that title. But i have heard a legend and watched a related movie, anold black and white film called Panchavankadu, which states that Marthanda Varma and Ramanamadathil Pillai's sister had a daughter, Kochu Thankachi. But there seems to be no info at all anywhere in books or on the net. So one cant consider it to be fact.

Speaking of the land registers, does it mean that actual entire info on lands in Travancore can be found only in the final register of 1912? But if the 1883 one mentions ur related families in central travancore, i assume it must mention info on remaining properties around these places as well.

Well you can find out about the Puthur family. My grandma specially states that during her childhood the family was non existent but her mother often refered to the "Puthur Unnithan". It could be possible that it is a branch of Edassery. And the Mouthathu family are Unnithans? I was under the impression they were Pillais.

Well the difficult part about coming to trivandrum is that im, supposedly, too young to go alone and my grandparents cant really sit through the car journey of a few hours till trivandrum. I find myself in a sort of dilemma. Coz if i want to come one of them will insist on coming and then on my account they will be all tired and stuff. So i prefer not coming. But i will make time next time im in kerala. I have friends at kowdiar. My friends father is the director Shyamaprasad. Besides my dad has many students around Trivandrum. Im sure somebody will accomodate me for sumtime.

By the way, to view these registers, does one have to pay a fee? Or is it available immediately on enquiry? And are you a regular visitor of KCHR etc? I noticed that u have a Sibi Unnithan on ur orkut list. I have exchanged a few emails with him in the past. There was an Unnithan group on yahoo once. He was a member as well.

Btw u had said one of ur relations was the grandson of Raja Ravi Varma's son. Is he grandson to Rama Varma who studied at the JJ school of arts bombay and later became Mayor of Mavelikara? Could you tell me the name of his grandmother ie the painters wife? and the number of children they had and their names?

Thanks

Manu

From manu
Ok so Mallasseril came from Kunnath Kurup (Than) and are Kiriyams while Thottamon is from Munjanattu house. Is that original family also Illam or is it the Thottamon branch that is Illathu Nair by caste? Yes your website- i keep visiting it from time to time just to read the same thing again and again. Never get bored. Specially ur page on genealogy keeps me engrossed all the time.

Vazhapadathu Unnithans? The same Vazhapadathu Panicker u had mentioned? Ok that information.So Mouthatthu is an Unnithan family. I was under the impression they were Pillais, having heard my grandmother say so in passing. So i will need a membership of the revenue department archives? Ok how long might that process take? Or can i just walk in one fine afternoon and get myself a membership after paying the required amount?? Yes through my correspondance with mr Cherian and Mr Sivandandan i came to know about the membership for the archives. Will have to get some more details though.

Well the details about Artist Thampurans family was a little confusing at first but after reading its twice i get the picture of the whole thing. RR Unnithan is Padmavati Kunjammas son if im not mistaken? She is the one Illikulathu Lady whom my grandmother did not personally know. My grandmother particlularly remembers Malathy Kunjamma, who after getting her share of paddy lands found it so difficult to cultivate that she came to my great grandad, Panicker Sir, and asked him is he would buy it. Apparently she was so distressed with the entire attempt at agriculture that she ended up in tears and had to be consoled by him bfore going home. And about Sreedhara Menon, Artist Thampuran had only one brother and so he must have been his son. What was his mothers name and family? And if i am not mistaken Menons are not found so much in Travancore right?

Kaduvinal Kuttyiamma Kunjamma and Lakshmikutty Kunjamma's mother were therefore sisters? I saw a picture of that Kunjamma at Kaduvinal. Speaking of Chettikulangara, my uncle comes from a Thevarassery family there, to which belongs some malyali actress Mallika on her maternal side. My uncles mom was from there while his maternal grandad was a Chettikulangara doctor. They have a family temple etc there. And this Chempolil family has documented history regarding only their own family history or in general regarding the happenings of the times in those parts?

The Ambalapuzha rajahs were Brahmins right? Ive heard of Chempakassery Namboodiri from there. Our family temple Thanthri always keeps proudly mentioning that family whenever he comes. He is from Pudumana Illam there. They were the hereditary priests of the temple of Ambalapuzha.

You have so much information on these Unnithan families. Its commendable. I think there is some bad luck around me. Even you, who know so much regarding these Unnithan families, havent heard of Kutungal and when i actually WENT there i wasnt permitted to meet the people. Hard luck. But in the end i cant barge in one day and say "hey, im a descendant of that Kunjamma who became Brashthu whom u guys dont even remember" can i?. But we know that there were relatives of the Kaduvinal Unnithans.

thanks anyways

Manu Pillai]

P.S.: I went through ur website again. Is ur grandmother Thottamon Saraswati Kunjamma (b.1921) still alive? And one more thing, i have been asked to tell you not to talk about the Parukutty Kunjamma not being allowed in the kitchen thing. Apparently that was abig secret hardly known to anyone. Panicker sir being a very good friend (actually rivals too) of Illikulathu Thankal (im ditching Unnithan....decided to address with the right title) knew it. I am told that when the Thankal was bed ridden and old he would often send his Karisthan to Mulavelil asking for Panicker sir to go visit him and then our Kariasthan, a Paramu Pillai, would run to school to inform Panicker sir that the Thankal was requesting him to meet so that they could play their usual chess and discuss things about the old days etc. Neways dont tell anybody about the kitchen thing. That is supposed to be an "Adukala Rahasyam" hehe....cya thanks

From ManU
Hey, Ur right talking on wiki isnt the best way. Would you mind emailing me ur reply on yahoo? dark_voldemort2000@yahoo.com. Well i know its a ridiculous id but i made it as a kid and everyone mails me there...so...

Well the kitchen thing. I doubt if her kids and grandchildren would even talk about it. as i said it was supposed to be an adukala rahasyam and after i told u my grandmother reprimanded me all the way from Kerala stating that it would be offensive. Anyways. I also believe that this was suitably covered up by the Illikulathu Thankal by employing Illathu ladies as cooks and stating that "he didnot want his wife to cook" etc. But apparently this was the real reason. Also i am told Parukutty Kunjamma was very very pious and gentle. Once when panicker sir was lunching there she tripped on his "medi idis" or slippers and immediately bowed down and touched them to her forehead etc.

Your family history is very interestin i say. Sometimes i feel we should have a book with brief info on old and aristocratic families like they have for the Lords in Britian. My grandad told me about them, since he had read some pages while he was there in the 70s. Now that u tell me im going to be wanting Rani Mangala Bai. Is it in english by any chance? Not knowing malayalam is a major hurdle for me now. The KCHR has agreed to xerox shungunny menon for me btw. They wouldnt have Mangala Bai i guess. Are you sure the book is true history? I mean the hiding etc? damn cool if it is. i seem to like exiles and stories of underground activities. And this speaks of the Kayamkulam Rajah. So ur family has been around Thonackad even before Marthanda Varma. And do you know anything about the Budhanur Karnavars? Sarvamangala Kunjamma was married to one from Korandipally. My grandmother states that old families didnt really marry them because prior to Marthanda Varma making them landlords, they were all poor etc etc.

O do tell me about Kaduvinal. It could supply me with more info on the Kutungal house and its origins. Yes, Illkulathu Thankal and Parameshwaran Unnithan were cousins. I particularly asked Lalithambika Kunjamma and her son Manoj. There are several tales about the Thankal and how he fell out with his uncle the Karnavan and hence, perhaps you know, that after his death Illikulam house and kavu etc did not pass to his children. Apparently the Karnavan wanted him to marry his daughter which after the Thankal got his BA, BL, refused as he was offered the hand of the Pattaveetil Kunjamma. SO that resulted him in getting the right to only reside at Illikulam till his death, without any rights for his kids.

I found some new info on Marans. They tecnically fall below Kiriyam but above Illam but in practice they go boo down the line. And i found out that Vadugathil Madhom and our house had marital relations like the way u had mentioned about ur related families. Besides, there are "good" and bad maran tharavads, not determined by property. Even today when a girl or boy is to be married, people from all far off places come just to get a relation into our house etc. Mulavelil men could marry ladies from Elanjimel Mundapally and Karaizhmey Ambuthrey but not the other way round. Women could marry either only Brahmins or else from another local family called Nallur. Also our original Tharavad, they are inferior in caste to us while we are Orunuls. Apparently thats because we are descendants of a Kunjamma. That is also the reason why in the past Mulavelil was well known among the Marans of central Travancore. Thankal descent, although through bhrasthu, elevated the Mulavelil status, alienated the affection of our Karnavans, and more importantly the Kunjamma was not declared bhrasthu because of any sexual offence. It was because of a mistake, the same the ancestress of Edassery committed, eating the food of the leaf of a member of inferior caste. Also the peculiarity of Orunul Marans is that only the guy who ties the girls thali can marry her later or else a Brahmin. Panicker sir broke that tradition because not only did he not tie Kalyani Ammas thali but was also inferior to her in point of caste. This thali thing also caused some probs in our family long back. My great great grandmothers sister, Parvati Amma, had her thali tied as a child by her uncles son, who belonged to family that were Kariasthans of some Brahmin family. Eventually when she grew up she did not get a Namboodiri husband and so we were compelled to let the Kariasthan from Chepad marry her. And inspite of the fact that they had plenty of land, Mulavelil felt so degraded that they broke off all contacts. And they were so pleased to get a Mulavelil lady that they gave her a hundred acres of paddy land from their own Tharavad privately so that she wouldnt break the marriage. But what was most degrading to the then Mulavelil family was that the Brahmins of whom they were Kariasthans were our relations and the said ladys sister, my great great grandma, married a brahmin from there (which was annuled after their first child died because apparently it was Brahma Shapam). Btw u said that in ur family the Brahmins came there and never took the wife to their houses. But my ancestress resided at the Alappurath Madhom for an entire two years till they divorced (unwillingly...she eventually ended up mad..i am refering to Panicker sirs mother in law)..that brahmin later married her "Thozhi", of the Thazhapilly family, and their son was a Dr Govindan Nayar who was in the Health Department of Travancore. This Govindan Nayars daughter later married Panicker sirs cousin, a Dr Narayanan Nayar of Mavelikara. Interstingly when this Brahmin was on his death bed, his last wish was to see his first wife. However she, Kunji Amma, was on that day suffering from one of her mad fits, and couldnt go. anyhow her husband would not have permitted her. Nobody meets their first spouse again after decades do they? but nevertheless kunji amma's three children, save for kalyani amma, were allowed to go and the brahmin died only after seeing them. Interestingly the plot on which my grandmothers house stands, was where the Brahmin sat and cried when he was informed that Kunji Amma was leaving him. He was not aware that the child was born dead and had actually arrived in a cabin boat with servants and maids to take his wife and child back to his house when he was informed by Kunji Ammas mother (a very aristocratic old lady who even dared to visit Kutungal on an elephant) that she would not come back to him. He had brought several gifts which were all sent to Moothadath Madhom by the mother, who it is said disgusted any kind of dependance on Brahmins. She was also so proud that she personally went and slapped the village tax collector when he annoyed her. It was she who had written in great detail on olais about kutungal, mulavelil, its history, etc which, unfortunately, being in sanskirt entirely in the form of some poetic verses were destroyed by my grandmother a decade back. Sad na?

I am trying to locate the Census Report of Travancore 1901 which gives detailed info on castes and their origins, aristocratic families within those castes etc. Try getting yourself a copy from one of the libraries where u go. I am sure they will give u a great deal of info on the matter of caste.

Well about the Nairs i firmly believe they are Nagas. Even the Keralolpathi mentions Naga links. It is also true they were in Kerala before the Brahmins. I am most proud coz the Nairs created the Kalaripayatu. That is why i keep getting thrilled when i hear of Tharavads with Kalaris and arms etc. My paternal grandads family is supposed to have had a Kalari but even my dad hasnt been there so no point stating. Kaduvinal has a namesake Kalari, just a lamp, next to their Kavu. Unfortunately their 300 year old nalu kettu is falling to pieces. Even their beautiful cowshed is decaying away.

It seems like an irony how some big Tharvads can be ruined in a matter of a few decades. Plenty of Dubai money has resulted in everyone becoming rich. Lalithambika Kunjamma was telling us how former servants etc now come to Kaduvinal and ask if they would sell their old lamps, Bharanis or wood. That house deserves better maintainance. But i guess its easy for me to sit here n say things. It must be difficult maintaining such old houses.

Do reply either on wiki or by email. Its great talking to you, and if u are replyin via email keep the subject in CAPITALS because i get so many fwds that i might just accidentally delete them. Thanks

Manu

Notability of Dr M S Valiathan F.R.C.S.
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Thanks !
Thanks for spotting and correcting the misspellings at M. S. Valiathan (probably introduced by me). Cheers. Abecedare 18:18, 12 August 2007 (UTC)