User talk:HarryAlffa

Thank You
Dear Harry, Thank you so much for editing the typo in Mills Observatory page. Much appreciated. --Cyril Thomas 13:03, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Pneumatics
Just saw your edit on the pneumatics page, and it reminded me of something I ran across. My father works in an oil refinery, and up until fairly recently all the instrumentation was pneumatic. He is aware of accidents happening where the instrumentation was running on nitrogen, and this resulted in the death of the control room operators when a leak occurred. Pneumatic controllers even have a dedicated exhaust port for times when you're not running air. --Paul Anderson (talk) 19:11, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

re WP:WQA
I have closed the section relating to you as "stale"; there being no movement for a few days, and was previously moribund for several more. Other than gently pushing you in the direction of "comment upon the content and not the contributor", I would also suggest that it may be useful to bear in mind the dictum that people who disagree with you are not of inferior intellect, but may only have drawn different conclusions based upon differing interpretations, analysis, and standards. While in pure science it may be argued that something may be true or not true, the same cannot be said of encyclopedia writing nor human interaction. There is a vast difference between clever and wise; and your essay "May contain nuts" is possibly as clever as it is perhaps unwise. It may behove you to consider that the desire to be appreciated for cleverness may get in the way of being appreciated. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:53, 26 August 2008 (UTC) ps. Please do wipe this (as is your right, as it is everyone on their talkpage) if you do not like it, by reading it it has served its purpose.


 * I do in fact like it and will keep it! With no admission of liability, I liked "the desire to be appreciated for cleverness may get in the way of being appreciated" bit. I enjoy those kind of recursive pithy statements.


 * There is indeed a vast difference between cleverness and wisdom. Cleverness may be measured, and as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so wisdom is judged by individuals on many criteria based upon differing interpretations, analysis, and standards - me being clever again? But you did say perhaps unwise. My essay "May contain nuts" was written with a desire to be funny, while making a point, I could have made the point without being funny. If it was also clever, well, humour often relies on an intelligent analysis - I don't think there are many stupid & successful comedians.


 * I completely agree that equally inteligent people can arive at diametrically opposing views based on the same evidence. I didn't base my conclusions of others intellects on their conclusions, but on the faulty, unintelligent analysis they displayed. Pointing this out was perhaps unwise! But patience isn't a hard-wearing substance. As I said before, I don't suffer fools gladly. -HarryAlffa (talk) 10:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You are again the subject of a section on an Admin noticeboard; you may wish to comment there.
 * I nearly always place a proviso before a statement, if I have gained any wisdom it is to know that I am not clever enough to make definitive statements without the consequences of being in error being brought unerringly back to me. I would also comment that while aspects of cleverness can be measured, a facility in one or more faculties does not mean that that person is intrinsically "clever" in all aspects - the famous absent minded professor/mad scientist/computer geek analogies being common reference points. Conversely, the inability to articulate how someone has drawn a conclusion does not necessarily mean the conclusion is therefore wrong (it does mean it is difficult to recreate the parameters to test it, though); "If it looks right, then it is right" is generally a valid truism (I prefer it to "Beauty is truth, and truth is beauty", since I am not sure I can trust either concept to remain constant). Lastly, while it is your personal response to do it gladly or not suffering fools is an armour that allows for the participation of a great many contributors to this project. It is a defining quality of "community". LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:10, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If I may deconstruct your first sentence plus a little spin; what goes around comes around. I always say that I don't mind making an arse of myself, because one, it happens so rarely, and two, I always learn something from it. :)
 * I should have emphasised when I said "Cleverness may be measured". I agree we cannot be clever in all aspects ie. no one is perfect! No one has shown an inability (except Ckatz) to show how they reached a conclusion, at least until lately when a cabal seems to be operating. It's just the analytical skills they have shown have been poor or very poor. The equaly valid axiom to be derived from "If it looks right, then it is right", is "If it looks stupid, then it is stupid", and we could flock some ducks together as well!. We both understand that beauty & truth are in the eye of the beholder.
 * As I indicated earlier, the armour against fools is patience, and quite thick plating withstood many foolish criticisms from outside, and filtered from the inside my responses to be neutral and conciliatory. Even if patience was a hard-wearing substance, it simply wore to thin to perform it's semipermeable job of proof against fools, and filter to my responses - "She canny take it Cap'n! The shields are down to 0.1%!". My next defence against getting mad is to get funny - "May contain nuts" -HarryAlffa (talk) 11:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I suggest "if it looks stupid, then it is stupid" is not a truism. Aesthetically, nobody can call the hippopotamus "right" but it is superbly appropriate for its environment - and the appropriate environment is exactly the situation I am referring to here. Perhaps an appropriate response to the degrading of the shields is not to transfer energy from life support (since that would be "quite illogical") would be not to find yourself in a position of raising shields in the first place; Picard rather than Kirk - the characters had a different understanding of the phrase "Engage". LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Which is why I said equaly valid of "if it looks stupid, then it is stupid". I can't resist saying that a hippopotamus would look stupid trying to edit wikipedia, and you could respond by saying it would not be clever to poke it with a big stick! I feel you are shifting armour a bit? Patience to suffer fools, but not being in the position of raising shields in that context is to simply not be here. But I don't think yopu mean that, you are now talking about defending myself against wiki alerts etc? I did in fact poke the big hippo with a stick?
 * Nice one on Picard & Kirk :) -HarryAlffa (talk) 12:31, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * For clarity, I have been trying to infer that because an etiquette alert goes stale is not grounds to disregard the concerns expressed. There is a mediation suggested below, and I would think it wise to agree to participate in order to determine whether it will be of benefit. LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:08, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * First of all I'd like to say that I have my suspicions about your IQ. I suspect it to be rather high. Ha! I wish I could remember in which TV show I heard that joke! I have only had the opportunity to use it once (in a likewise positive manner, in the mid 1980's now that I think of it) and it's a real pleasure to have an intelligent interchange. It really does contrast for me how tiresome it was becoming explaining the obvious to the ... the other Wikipedians.

Anyway, yes of course it would be wise to follow some mediation, but ...

The tale of the Wise King springs to mind, as I remember it; the Wise King leaves the kingdom for a time and on his return he finds everyone has become mad. But they all think that it is he that is mad, and call him the Mad King. The Wise King discovers it is a poisoned well which has turned everyone mad. He goes to the well and drinks, and becomes mad. The populace rejoice crying "The Mad King is cured, the Wise King has returned".

I was thinking today that in Wikipedia two cretins could overrule Einstein, or Richard Dawkins, I mean purely in terms of expressive, concise prose. Yes, you reply, that's the point of wikipedia, or it's the rough with the smooth. OK, that's the way it is, but is this a good thing?

It makes me wonder about the quality of other articles on subjects I know nothing about. How many intelligent, valuable editors have been over-written by two or three morons acting as a pack, and then decided to piss off from Wikipedia altogether?

I wonder if in wikietiquette it should be possible to complain about someone being stupid? It would save a lot of time if someone got a message saying, "A complaint has been made that you appear to be operating at an unacceptably low intellectual standard". -HarryAlffa (talk) 18:10, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)Stupidity, fortunately, is apparent to anyone who is less stupid (although it would take diplomacy beyond my imagination to impress that concept on someone who declares they "have no problem" with demonstatably stupid prose/action, given the rather obvious circumstances). Usually it is best countered by the availability of good references, but problems do occur when two people make the common error of believing two heads are better than one - without realising that simply agreeing something is right does not make it so. It is for this reason, and many more, that WP has had to put in place avenues of dispute resolution that takes the argument away from the interested parties and utilises concepts such as good faith, respect, civility and the reliance upon reliable references to determine outcomes. Intelligence, as opposed to cleverness which is often more transparently obvious than apparent, is much less easily discerned. Often it resolves to a value judgement, and shouldn't be trusted but constantly (but civilly) tested. Re the Good/Mad King, I am reminded of a passage from I, Claudius when the clearly insane Caligula has a moment of lucidity and asks, in all apparent honest concern, whether he is regarded as mad; "M-m-mad?", stammers Claudius, "You s-s-s-set the very st-st-standard for s-s-sanity in the E-e-e-empire!" There lies the difference between the Good King and the Mad Emperor. LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC) ps. 144 (but that was a decade ago)


 * I was once paid a great compliment by a friend; we were a bit hung-over, out for a walk, and he was telling us about the various flora we passed, I felt I had to contribute something, so when he mentioned the yew tree I dragged up a great deal of information I had gained from a TV program some years before. He was so impressed he said I ought to be a member of MENSA. I immediately disagreed with him, I didn't think that I had displayed any great problem solving intelligence, simple recall isn't the same, you can be the most intelligent being in the world, but if someone asks you, "f you're so clever, what colour is it?" you're stumped! Ah, he said, but high intelligence often goes together with good recall. I was forced to agree!
 * Good references provide good information. Intelligence is required to synthesise information into knowledge, and then convey this knowledge in writing. Stupidity in analysing (in the talk page) the information from references is of course not countered by those references. I very much doubt that dispute resolution would say; "You two guys are being a bit thick, listen to this other guy - he isn't"! I'm sure there are policies which say that it's just not allowed to say that sort of thing to someone, or it would certainly go against the spirit of policies - but this is what I am questioning. Some pages are protected so that only established editors can edit them, this wasn't always the case. Maybe some pages should be protected from stupid people, no matter how well intentioned they are. Which is what I was getting at by the suggested message of, "A complaint has been made that you appear to be operating at an unacceptably low intellectual standard". Less, and fewer, stupid people editing science articles could only be a good thing! Would you rather Caligula or Claudius set WP? Or, avoiding dictatorship, the stupid or the intelligent? But then democracy gets in the way! The highly intelligent will always be outnumbered! -HarryAlffa (talk) 11:38, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

solarisation
Hi there, I was tweaking the solar system article and saw your contribs there, and like them. Thanks for making the effort to improve the article. As for your nuts essay, you should start a collection... +sj + 22:24, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I thank you. Unlooked for praise is always pleasant! I will have a new improved recipe for nuts ... sometime, maybe! I shall make an attempt at a Terminology section! HarryAlffa (talk) 15:42, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Template val discussion
Hi,

Though I appreciate your input, I'd like to ask you to refrain from speaking on my behalf ("SkyLined has chosen to use his skill-set to create the Val template", "SkyLined will more than likely change the template"). I am more than capable of saying what I've done and what I plan to do myself.

Also, in this particular instance, you're not really adding anything to the discussion either, just repeating what I already said. That tends to happen a lot in discussions and it makes for long boring reads - the kind that people will ignore. This is one of the reasons why we see these style questions a lot - nobody bothers to read the discussion we've had before and just starts a new one.

I hope this remark did not offend you; that is not my intention: I do appreciate your input. Just please be mindful not to speak on other people's behalf without their consent :)
 * — SkyLined (talk) 17:48, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If I remember rightly the other contributor(s?) just didn't seem to get what you were saying, so I recast the points you made in the hope they would sink in. The first quote you use is not me speaking on your behalf. It cannot be contentious to describe something which has occurred. As to my guessing of what you might do, this was hardly a promise - and was pretty much what you had implied when you said;"We should come up with a solution to this:→ ONLY if the style of val does not follow the MOS, should val be updated. (Changes to the way an editor uses val should be avoided: only the output style should be changed. Additional uses can be added when they do not interfere with existing ones."
 * No offence taken. Sleep well :) HarryAlffa (talk) 20:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

A note re: Talk:Rorschach test/2009 consensus review
Please be advised that I have recently conducted a review of the Rorschach test (formerly Rorschach inkblot test) talk page and archives. At some point, you have commented on the issue of the display and/or placement of the Rorschach inkblot image. Based on my understanding of your comment(s), I have placed you into one of three categories. I am issuing this note so that you can review how I have placed you, and to signal if this is an appropriate placement and/or to make known your current thoughts on this matter. You may either participate in discussion at the article talk page or leave a note at my talk page; but to keep things in one place, you should also clarify at Talk:Rorschach test/2009 consensus review/addendum. Longer statements may be made here or quick clarifications/affirmations based on several pre-written statements can be made here. Best regards, –xenotalk 14:54, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Civility
You might want to think twice before the next time you want to. Thanks. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:46, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Any intelligent or honest analysis would see that was not the implication. HarryAlffa (talk) 19:08, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * So, I'm stupid and dishonest? Good to know. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:20, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The first step to solving a problem is to recognise it. HarryAlffa (talk) 19:47, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If you look again I used an OR not an AND. You can contribute a third option if you like; too quick to judge perhaps; insufficient attention to context? I was rather hoping you would say one of those straight off. Instead of taking offence you could have looked again at the straw man deconstruction this actually was."The Nazis where all for uniformity, but dressing our 60,000 active editors in Nazi uniforms just to make you happy is just not on."HarryAlffa (talk) 21:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I Detest Dishonesty
Is that a bad thing?

The straw man is a form of dishonesty. I hate it, and protest when ever it is employed, unless it is knowingly used to illustrate an absurd position - although it may be more a misremembering of another's position than a deliberate fallacy. But in my recent interactions on talk pages it has been used in a dishonest fashion, and I have said so. Should we all let straw men be destroyed by their builders without comment? Would you call it uncivil to protest at a straw man argument? To point out the disreputable use? If so I am guilty of it, and will continue to re-offend in this manner without apology.

To have one's position dishonestly and deceitfully misrepresented is not good to see when everyone is supposed to be operating in good faith. I don't like this, I find it offensive, and when it happens I say so. Is that being uncivil? Then I declare my culpability in that as well, and the charge sheet will grow with further such offences in the future.

On the 7th May 2009, I asked a question about self-links. There was a great quantity of text generated with good information and good discussion. I think the first sign of tetchyness came about two weeks later;"I am happy that your finally reached a consensus with yourself, however, I do not think this is enough to change MOS. Ruslik (talk) 18:47, 19 May 2009 (UTC)"Where Ruslik was carrying over invective from the Solar System FA review.

The first hint of criticism of me was;"You've argued very cogently up to this point - though I continue to disagree with you, we'll see how the RFC goes - so don't get tendentious now. Rd232 talk 20:58, 21 May 2009 (UTC)"

And now we get to the RfC on the 21st of May 2009.

I didn't comment on any user, only their opinions, unlike these;

And yet it is I who is being accused?
 * "What you say is your opinion, what I say is the objective truth." Constructive? JamesBWatson (talk) 16:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Judging from your rhetoric, you seem to view anyone who doesn't agree with you as absurdly clueless—an attitude that's not really compatible with a wiki. --Laser brain (talk) 19:44, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * plonk. --Hans Adler (talk) 18:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Suggest silence --Kotniski (talk) 13:20, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * ... endorse the statement of Kotniski. Ruslik (talk) 13:49, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If you insist on demonstrating your compulsion for pissing into the wind, I shall stand clear. -- Tcncv (talk) 17:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

There was absolutely no justification for these personal attacks - but I didn't ask for admin intervention. I got on with it. JamesBWatson's and Laser Brain's misrepresentations I find particularly offensive - no text of mine will be found to justify such mischaracterisation. Tcncv's comment I thought was rather enjoyable, but I'm judging by the standards being applied to me.

WP:Consensus"Wikipedia does not base its decisions on the number of people who show up and vote; we work on a system of good reasons."All of my arguments are based on a system of good reasons. I believe in this policy. I quote this frequently, I employed it a number of times at WP:Link talk page, but have never had anyone offer any system of good reasons in a counter argument, except perhaps one.

Read my Fear, uncertainty and doubt, and competence contribution to that talk page, which surely cannot be described as anything but comprehensive and polite.

11 days later Hans Adler then replied to this and misrepresented me in an unacceptable way, he actually lied, "As to your assertions that one needs to have a background in certain web technologies to be worthy of discussing with you", I made no such assertion, nor anything like it. I hate dishonesty, straw men and misrepresentation. I pointed out the disreputable use. I see no apology in the future, but if he wants to make one. His previous contribution was plonk to me at 18:09, 26 May 2009. So a gap of a few weeks, then he drops in with a straw man attack on me, not the arguments, and a misrepresentation of my polite and comprehensive evaluation."Thanks for finally ending this silly thread.--Hans Adler (talk) 13:08, 14 June 2009 (UTC)"Yet it is I who is being accused?

In WP:Link talk I count 5 times when I claimed misrepresentation by another, or their use of a straw man - check it out.


 * I restore the RfC, Kotniski removes it again.
 * I complain in ANI about them both, bit of a mix up on my part about who had removed it prematurely some weeks earlier (Kotniski).
 * Ruslik outright lies in the Hans Adler ANI;"The only editor whose behavior is disruptive here is you, HarryAlffa. During the RFC you constantly tried to let down all other participants by claiming that everybody who disgrees with you is incompetent... Ruslik_Zero 19:39, 15 June 2009 (UTC)"
 * Kotniski ANI Kotniski makes a personal attack"I believe it disrupts Wikipedia to allow this sort of self-indulgent attention-seeking."with no comment from an admin.
 * In the same ANI, Hans Adler dishonestly describes my proposal and my contributions, no comment from an Admin.
 * SheffieldSteel quotes two bullet point contribs to back up claims of incivility, one which actually contains the personal attack on me from JamesBWatson, and the other a knowingly-poor joke, obviously not ill-intentioned, by me.

Ckatz then joins in. All my interactions with him have been contaminated by his misrepresentations. I give a link to some of his obvious dishonesty - YellowMonkey blocks me. HarryAlffa (talk) 16:24, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Daniel, that is an unbelievable description of my answering personal attacks. My defence was not "they started it", but that I did not battleground. Please tell me with whom YOU think I was battlegrounding, from when, and in what manner. Some diffs would be helpful. HarryAlffa (talk) 18:15, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

HarryAlffa seeks an explanation
YellowMonkey, you blocked me. I ask again. Could you provide a narrative of your thought process, and a time line? Is this an unreasonable request? HarryAlffa (talk) 19:05, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for nothing YellowMonkey HarryAlffa (talk) 18:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Your unblock request shows very clearly that you are unclear about how Wikipedia functions. I am unclear on how you could be so familiar with our Consensus Policy and still advocate discounting the opinions of "stupid editors" or editors of "average intelligence". Quite frankly, you don't get to do that. Your voice is one of many, and while you may or may not have good points, you cannot get your way by disregarding other editors. I am strongly inclined to block you for a longer period of time, because I'm not convinced that you understand how problematic your editing has become. You will need to read and review our civility policy before any administrator considers an unblock, and that may be unlikely in any event. Please calm down and attempt to work within policy - or, alternatively, you may be happier editing elsewhere. Best to you, UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 20:20, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Forum shopping
Pasting the same comment to four different related noticeboards is not cool. In addition, stating that someone is "unable to listen to reason" can be construed as a personal attack -- especially when it's repeated all over the place. Pick a forum and stick with it, please. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Attempt at further discussion ignored

File:GauzeGray 50PercentTransparent.gif listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, File:GauzeGray 50PercentTransparent.gif, has been listed at Files for deletion. Please see the to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. OsamaKReply? on my talk page, please 12:30, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Accusations of lying
This would really be a nice time to at least pretend to assume good faith. Continued accusations of lying could result in a block for either personal attacks or disruption. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:24, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Re; Checkuser
It's not Akraj; as for who it may be, if anyone, I'm not sure, as I don't have the time nor the mental capacity to check just now. As Jehochman pointed out, however, we try to avoid linking specific IP addresses to accounts anyway for privacy reasons. Hers fold  (t/a/c) 23:11, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Enough with the personal attacks
This is a personal attack. You've been warned repeatedly about making them. I suggest you strike it or you could earn yourseslf another block. Auntie E. 16:52, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

RFAR request blank
I had to blank your statement at the RFAR you filed as it came to some 10000 words. It should be limited to 500 but even with generous leeway, this is way over the top. Please rewrite your request statement. Seddon talk|WikimediaUK 19:02, 31 October 2009 (UTC)


 * And after further consideration and advice by an Arb, I've removed it entirely. If you wish to refile correctly I can give you some guidance, but I'd strongly suggest that you use other methods of dispute resolution first as without doing this your request is likely to be denied. If you need sources for these, see WP:DR - please however only use of these at a time. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 14:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Your edit to User talk:Jimbo Wales
I have already reverted one edit to remove your very lengthy post to Jimbo's talkpage. May I suggest that you collapse the content, so that it doesn't put off readers - and Jimbo - by its massiveness? While I am sure that you feel that you can evidence all your particular claims, I would also suggest that you review the content (I realise you have already reviewed it many times before committing it) to ensure that your language is as civil and neutral as possible. Cheers, LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:26, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Harry, I am going to collapse it since you seem to be offline. Please do not edit war to make it visible - if you want to discuss how you want it then please drop me a line. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:43, 31 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I realize that Jimbo is a "court of appeal", but your huge post on his talk page is not necessary. A reasonably short statement with a link to the page with the parties, statements, evidence, etc., is sufficient. There is no reason to add so much bulk to Jimbo's talk page, and I ask you to remove it. Thank you. —Finell (Talk) 20:26, 31 October 2009 (UTC)  (To preserve the continuity of the conversation, I will watch for your reply, if any, here on your Talk page) 

I've come to regard Wikipedia as the most corrupt society I've been involved in. No intended slight on LessHeard (who I have a high regard for) or Finell (who I've never met) - but if you do nothing else look at this swept under the carpet with threats and closed with a propaganda attack. And this "Follow up" immediately below it on the same page. HarryAlffa (talk) 17:35, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I have reviewed the above, and admit to being a little concerned over the attitude of Ckatz and Ruslik0 - in that I do not see any attempt at dispute resolution, or an acknowledgement that the disputed content had some verification. I also do not see any in your part either (and I am familiar with your viewpoint as regards truth and verifiability, which isn't as optimum as might be) and nor do I see the sources specifically supporting the entire content you were attempting to include, but the part about particle acceleration - which it was claimed as unsupported - does appear as well as some other material. The proper method was to have started a discussion with a view to incorporating that of the original and the new content as was supported. Per WP:BRD it might be argued that it was for you to initiate a discussion, but it may also be argued that removing the content without reference was also improper. As I see it, there is a case that content was being removed inappropriately and not discussed - thus precipitating an edit war, and that the other parties response was to concentrate on the editors character rather than the disputed content.
 * The question is, what do you want to do Harry? Do you wish to take the contested edits into dispute resolution, do you wish to start a RfC on the two editors, both, or do you wish to withdraw from editing the subject/Wikipedia. I can help, but only within the Wikipedia remit. This means that I would require from you conduct and attitude that is respectful, neutral, and acknowledging that you might not get all or much of what you desire. If you think it worthwhile to pursue this option, let me know. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:17, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The Aurora article was the culmination of wikistalking by Ruslik, Ckatz, Serendipodous & YellowMonkey. The first two only involved in that article, so the remit of the content of the article is really quite irrelevant at this point. If you look at the "massive edit" you will see the evidence of wikihounding across multiple namespaces and Wikiprojects. So any idea of proper procedure on article content has been killed off by these four. In other words your description of edit-war, which may be well supported by narrow evidence, in the big picture it is a pursuit of an editor by these, rather than the pursuit of improving the project.
 * The outright lies and deception by Ruslik & Ckatz in the ANI I raised has a direct bearing on my concern of the corrupt nature of Wikipedian society, one part being that lies & deception by admins are ignored & when a non-admin says "look at this - it's lies and deception - and here are the diffs to evidence it" - as I did - the non-admin - me - is accused of personal attacks or not assuming good faith. As the "IP24" said, "It's just that I too have endured baseless accusation by Ckatz.". This user is now User:24dot
 * The ANI was properly raised and justified by it's own content, but it was also a "toe in the water" before I raised the ArbCom request (see above on this page). It was a test of the corruption of Wikipedian admins - I half expected a cover-up and perhaps even another block from YellowMonkey, but the silence from other admins disappointed, and the cover-up by another was extremely disappointing. However, in a triumph of hope over experience, I do hope that my current view of endemic corruption and dishonesty of Wikipedians will be overturned.
 * Ruslik & Ckatz got defensive in the ANI, and their instinct was to immediately lie and deceive. Nothing was said of this. Such dishonesty from the Ckatz Cabal is what I've come to expect. I believe it would be irresponsible of the Project to allow them continued "access to the tools"

I think this extract will help some;

Ruslik & Ckatz on Aurora
(Extract from wikihounding evidence, this is about the twelfth page in the hounding-series, from April 2009. They often turn up within the hour of my edits, and to pages they have never edited before to hound me)

On 27 August, 2009 I corrected the auroral mechanisms section with an edit summary of, “''Correct confusion and contradiction. Copy-edit”, within 15 minutes Ruslik had reverted me, claiming in his edit summary, “You removed so much information that I ought to revert''”. This brought the total number of edits he made to the article in it's entire history to 2, both reversions. He again shows an inherent inability to analyse or even comprehend the material.

I was in the process of putting together references for my contribution, but I gave up, because frankly, what the fuck was the point? Instead I was confident, or at least hopeful, that with the involvement of the Wikiproject Physics, someone would spot this and undo Ruslik. My faith was misplaced.

On 3rd October I tried again with pretty much the same edit, within eight hours Ckatz had reverted with an edit summary, “restore more encyclopedic text”. Unbelievable! I in turn undid him with an edit summary of, “''Restore corrections. No wikihounding please.''”. About 15 minutes later Ruslik undid me.

On 6th October I undid Ruslik with an edit summary, “''Please. No group Wikihounding.''”. Then made a minor change with regard to his previous edit summary. Within 35 minutes Ruslik undid me, with an edit summary of, “You should learn classical electrodynamics before you make such changes”.

On 10th October I undid Ruslik, then made a series of four edits adding references and one copy-edit.  The next day Ruslik reverted me with an edit summary of, “I do not agree with removal of information”.

The next day another user reverted Ruslik with an edit summary of “don't remove cited mateial”. Ckatz then reverted with an edit summary of, “It was reverted because the rewrite was not of the same quality as the previous version.”.

It is clear that Ckatz and Ruslik are determined to hound me, and will lie and deceive in their edit summaries in a vain attempt to justify the hounding.

(end of extract)

I think this should cause anyone more than a little concern.

Remember that this is one of a long series of examples - in other words I've quoted myself out of context. I think a reasonable conclusion is that both Ckatz & Ruslik are liars. Sorry if you think that is a personal attack - I think it is an accurate description. People seem to forget (judging by the policy quotes thrown around) that part of policy is common sense - if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. HarryAlffa (talk) 19:03, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, as you see it, you feel there is little point in attempting dispute resolution because the revert war on Aurora is an example of continuing following of your edits by a group of admins/editors, whose actions are designed to frustrate your attempts to contribute to the encyclopedia - and whose response to attempts to discuss these concerns are to concentrate comment upon your character rather than detailing any specific problem with the edit? Is that correct? Would you, if you wished to spend the effort, be able to evidence this behavior occurring over a length of time and across a breadth of articles? I am suggesting that if there is the likelihood of being able to produce such evidence that you might consider opening a Request for comment/User conduct (providing there is also evidence that other people have also complained about similar issues). In any event, are you able and willing to provide examples of the alleged wikihounding other than the Aurora episode? If there is a reasonable indication that the admins are using their flags, or threatening to do so, in order to demotivate another editor from contributing to an area of the encyclopedia then I feel I should make civil enquiries as to why this would appear so. Let me know if you feel able to supply this information. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:05, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I am indeed able to provide the evidence. I have it sitting here. I posted it Jimbo's page.
 * I'm puzzled as to the importance of other people making the same complaint. I must also supply evidence of this - if it is occurring? A group can wikihound one person, but not more than one? Am I missing something obvious here? HarryAlffa (talk) 15:52, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * A Request for comment/User conduct requires two different people to make the same type of complaint for it to proceed. This ensures that there appears to be a valid concern regarding repeated behaviour rather than one person make a premature or frivolous complaint - and it also allows people to make mistakes now and then without getting overly censured for it. However, since it appears that you are taking the ArbCom route then the matter is moot. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:35, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

MfD nomination of User:HarryAlffa/ArbCom
User:HarryAlffa/ArbCom, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:HarryAlffa/ArbCom and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes ( ~ ). You are free to edit the content of User:HarryAlffa/ArbCom during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Glass  Cobra  17:23, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * A dishonest thing happened to me on the way to ArbCom. HarryAlffa (talk) 17:18, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Politeness Police
Politeness Police, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Politeness Police and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes ( ~ ). You are free to edit the content of Politeness Police during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Equazcion  (talk)  20:54, 6 Nov 2009 (UTC) 20:54, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Your questions at Arbitration Committee Elections December 2009/Candidate statements/Ruslik0/Questions for the candidate
Your recent additions to the aforementioned questionnaire are out of line. I suggest revising your queries to make them more civil. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 14:46, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Without discussing the extreme impoliteness of your tone in the questions, they are not in line with the general format of candidate questions. I suggest you either discuss these issues personally with Ruslik0, or on the candidacy discussion page. Please try to approach him with civility. All the best, ~ Riana ⁂ 14:52, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Your recent defense of your questions in ANI indicates that you still feel the questions were reasonable. They were not. They violated WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, WP:NPA. Arbcom elections are not a free-fire zone for insults or attacks on candidates. Please consider this a final warning, that any further abusive behavior in this manner will result in a block on your account. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:27, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Harry, can I suggest that you keep your RfAr concerns and questions to candidates separate? General questions regarding potential problems with comprehension and neutrality, with examples, should be politely made - the idea is to demonstrate to other readers of potential concerns with respect to the candidate. As for the RfAr, this is where you can address serious concerns in respect of the other parties actions but again it will only be read if it is done in a civil manner. Being heard is the only way to have your concerns evaluated, so you are going to have to do what it takes to be heard - which is to appear civil in your commentary. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:11, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You, and others, are correct, I should not have "poisoned the well" as someone put it. I was so outraged at the prospect of Ruslik even thinking of applying for ArbCom that my desire to stop that sort of damage to the project outweighed all other concerns. I am still astonished that no friend of his has had a quiet word in his ear and told him not to stand. HarryAlffa (talk) 19:27, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Two remaining points; ""non-reasoning nay-saying is anti-Wikipedian" is not a good language."
 * His English skills are questionable on his candidacy page, and how about this talk page (part of the Wikihounding be Ckatz & Ruslik);

- Ruslik


 * Ruslik was confused be this question

"I have seen examples of poor usage of English from you frequently on Wikipedia, as can be seen from some of your answers on this page. You do not think that this lack of skill greatly hampers all communication by you?"

- HarryAlffa

You will have to explain to me exactly how this violates each of the policies quoted at me here.

"Given that you were confused by the use of transitive property in this talk page, you do not think that you simply lack the intellectual ability to handle any case that would come to ArbCom, as it is certain that they will be more complex than that simple question?"

- HarryAlffa

Again, given the truth of his confusion, this is a valid question. Please explain to me exactly why this violates each of the policies quoted at me here. HarryAlffa (talk) 19:27, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

User:Georgewilliamherbert. Can you please explain to me why that question (I have refactored it) violates WP:AGF? HarryAlffa (talk) 18:53, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Your original question, as written, also included:
 * "Given that I am raising an ArbCom case against you, chiefly for Wikihounding, you do not think that such behaviour is incompatible with adminship, never mind ArbCom membership?"

- HarryAlffa


 * You there presume that your not-yet-filed Arbcom case has been decided, in your favor, supporting your opinion that he's hounding you. That you are creating such a case does not create any such presumption of outcome.  There has been no independent admin or community support for such a finding of hounding.  You may believe so and file that case, but you are not entitled by that opinion to presume that those people are convicted already.  This violates WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL.
 * The "lack the intellectual ability" comment violated WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL.
 * Fundamentally - we expect all contributors to treat all other contributors as human beings and with respect. Your first unrefactored questions clearly did not do so.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 15:27, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * As I suspected, complete nonsense. Your statement is so silly that I can't begin to tell you how wrong it is. You said, "You there presume that your not-yet-filed Arbcom case has been decided". I assure you that this was not the case - I would consider that to be a stupid assumption. I am not a stupid person. I would therefore ask that you assume good faith on my part, and withdraw everything on this page based on your mind-reading trick.
 * You quote out of context and misrepresent when you describe part of my questioning as the "lack the intellectual ability comment"
 * By the perverted interpretation of standards you are trying to apply to me, your accusation of me not treating others as human beings is a personal attack. If it wasn't so silly I would spend time thinking more on it, which may lead to concluding that it is a straight up personal attack.
 * Here's a few points for you to think on.


 * WP:Civil, WP:AGF & WP:NPA are all policies written in mind for the writing of encyclopaedic articles.
 * Then let's consider the ArbCom an article. What then is this articles content?
 * Hmm, let's see … the ArbCom is an article, so what is the ArbCom made of? Why, members. So that means the content of the committee is it's members. So an election is a decision on the content of this article.
 * So.
 * Members are editors, so content is editors, so in order to write this article we must discuss the content.
 * We must discuss the editor who is to become part of the content.
 * You don't like that?
 * WP:Civil, WP:AGF & WP:NPA are all policies written in mind for the writing of encyclopaedic articles.
 * But ArbCom is not an article. It is an election to decide which persons are to be members of that important committee.
 * We must discuss the editors who are to become members of the committee.
 * We cannot question articles about their content, nor can we ask the content questions, but we can ask the proposed contents of the ArbCom questions.
 * Is a certain level of intellectual ability pertinent to ArbCom membership? If you do not think so, how many of the present ArbCom do you consider stupid? Would a low intellect on ArbCom help or hinder? If there is evidence (a diff) of intellectual failings, does the candidate realise this failing? Can he explain it as something other than an intellectual failing? The questions were politely put. They were challenging, and they were meant to be, and anyone in the community (which includes me) has the right to ask candidates challenging questions on their past performance. There was no name calling, all questions were relevant to a quality of the candidate pertinent to his ability to perform on ArbCom. They were not deferential. Which may be the actual cause of the consternation you and others displayed.
 * Your threats of blocks I regard as an attempt to bully. Do not try to bully me.
 * Finally I would contrast the participation of admin's in this ANI with the marshalling of forces which you participated in, and then came here. HarryAlffa (talk) 16:36, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Harry, I suggest you find other areas of the 'pedia to work on for a while where those you're frustrated with aren't involved. There are many collegial and collaborative editors here (and others who aren't, sometimes because they've been bitten one too many time). My personal opinion on the language and communication issues you're raising is that they seem a bit petty. If you feel that the content dispute underlying the disagreement is valid, and don't desire a break (despite my kind suggestion), then try getting outside opinions with neutrally worded requests at the third opinion noticeboard wp:3o, the wp:content noticeboard, or on the project discussion page. At the present time you seem to be very frustrated and antagonistic, and trying to get a pound of flesh isn't usually conducive to collegial collaboration on encyclopedia building. You might also consider taking a break from Wikipedia all together, or at least finding other article projects and collaborations to work on until the dust has settled. This project should be at least somewhat enjoyable. And don't let Hans bug you. Please let me know if I can be of any assistance. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:31, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Notifying on ANI
Hi, HarryAlffa! This is a kind note gently reminding you that when you start threads of other editors on WP:ANI you must remember to notify them. Don't worry! It's been taken care of. Just keep it in mind if there is a next time. Thanks!! Basket of Puppies 18:47, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi, HarryAlffa. I noticed that you created another thread on WP:ANI but you again forgot to notify the user. Again- don't worry as it's been taken care of. However I think you need to really try to keep this in mind. Thank you. Basket of Puppies  18:27, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You are absolutely right. I really don't know how I could have forgotten this, well except that I've been wikihounded for so long that I expect my every edit to be reverted! No kidding actually. All joking aside, this definitely makes sense to me. HarryAlffa (talk) 18:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

AGF
I would like to offer any help I have with | your AGF suggestions. Is there any way I can be of assistance?--Adam in MO Talk 21:58, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, rewrite it as I suggested. I have an ArbCom case to prepare, so don't have the time to do this. HarryAlffa (talk) 19:32, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

ACE2009
Hi there. I was looking through the ArbCom questions (for User:Bfigura/ACE2009) when I noticed a series of questions from you (an example). To me, this comes across as a veiled personal attack, and I'd like to ask you to consider refactoring it. (To the best of my knowledge, I don't have any prior involvedment with you, or the editor in the question). Thanks in advance, -- B figura (talk) 21:15, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

ANI notice
Hello, HarryAlffa. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. GiantSnowman 21:33, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

November 2009
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 1 month for '''using the upcoming ArbCom elections as a personal agenda platform. I have blocked you until after the elections are over and results announced to prevent you from further disrupting Wikipedia'''. Please stop. You are welcome to make useful contributions after the block expires. If you believe this block is unjustified you may contest this block by adding the text below. Tan  &#124;   39  22:32, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Block extended to indefinite
Reviewing your Arbcom elections participation, your "arbom case" page, the Politeness Police page, your article contributions, and your ANI participation, I have come to the conclusion that you are not here to build an encyclopedia. You're just being disruptive.

We're not here to be a platform for whatever point you're trying to make. Encyclopedia-creation focused critics of the Wikipedia admin community and existing policies are welcome here. You're being disruptive to make a point, and not even trying to build articles anymore.

I have reset your block to indefinite. Note that this does not mean permanent - you are not community banned, and you can appeal with an unblock request here, ask someone to post an appeal to ANI, appeal to unblock-en-l@lists.wikimedia.org, or appeal by email to Arbcom (preferably in that order). As you have contributed positively at times in the past I can see the possibility of you doing so again in the future. But at this point, you show no sign of it. If you're just going to keep this behavior up, there's no point to having you continue to edit.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:10, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for. If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest this block by adding the text below, but you should read our guide to appealing blocks first. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:10, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

George, you are taking the role of the Arbitration Committee, all by your self. The community already decided that my ArbCom case page should stand, you step beyond your powers by "ruling" it disruptive.

My ArbCom elections participation referred to an ANI in which I was admonished, yet my asking "any general concerns by the five days of silence from admins in this ANI" in a question to candidates is taken as, "purpose of causing trouble for people Harry has disagreed with", "veiled personal attack" and "some kind of agenda behind them". It's almost as if the admin community had some vestigial shame on how that ANI was handled, why else suppress it by removing the questions from the candidates pages?

I have been advised not to make edits to articles if I wish my ArbCom case page to be regarded as timeous, then you say I'm, "not even trying to build articles anymore". However I regarded ArbCom elections, and editing WP:AGF -, , as exceptions. As was my WP:AGF talk page participation.

If I was going to re-write the satire, Politeness Police I would satirise the admin behaviour it was aimed at by comparison to the mindset of the religious police of the Iranian state.

The religious police are to Islam and the Koran as some admins are to Wikipedia and it's Policies and Guidelines.

You can draw further parallels with conservative and liberal wings among admins, but no one likes an extremest.

If you don't like that comparison then compare them with the mindset of US soldiers at Abu Ghraib.

Over-the-top comparisons? Remember I'm talking about mindset here; but given the chance, how many admins would you expect to behave as abhorrently as the religious police? Now take that answer and multiply by three. If the product is greater than zero, then you must have thought of at least one admin who you would expect to abuse others human rights if they had real powers in the real world. Don't you think that these admins should have the tools gently removed from their hands?

Part of the humour of the Politeness Police was the alternative spelling of Constable to Cunstable - not very subtle humour & a very minor part near the end, but obviously intended as humour, and read with good faith can only be regarded as such - however this was used as a pretext to speedy delete after 5 hours in WP:MFD. Politeness Police was put up with the Brainstorming template from the first, indicating an appeal for participation in it's production and alteration, as someone did when it was in WP:Namespace. If the cited reason of "calling admins cunts by typographic means" was the only objection, then it would have been quite easy to participate and call for those changes. Instead of participation, admins afraid of satire, suppressed the satire rather than examine the underlying concern the piece was obviously addressing - WP:religious police, another satire anyone?

I would remind you of the story of Dickens being sued by some gentlemen over Oliver Twist, citing that the book used their person as the basis for the poorhouse character who refused Oliver's request for more (despite it being politely put; I know how he feels), the judge summed up that anyone who saw themselves in that character wasn't up to much (I paraphrase). If you felt you were being targeted by my satire, then I would ask which character from Oliver you think the general readership would regard you as.

I trust that my useful, and still standing, contributions to WP:AGF, and for the other rebuttals of your given reasons for the block, you will change your view to one which I hold myself - I am here to build an encyclopaedia; and lift the block.

Finally I would say, all that is required for evil to flourish is for good Wikipedians to do nothing. HarryAlffa (talk) 18:03, 27 November 2009 (UTC)


 * There seems to be a consensus that your behavior rather firmly placed you outside our community standards. You seem to be defending your behavior and your right to conduct it.
 * You are free to write whatever you want, wherever you want in venues that will have you. There are several available for Wikipedia critics, much less creating your own blog or web page.
 * However - within Wikipedia, we have standards of behavior. Satire, humor, criticism, are all welcomed as part of that.  Abusive and rude behavior are not.  They demean all participants, degrade the quality of participation and communications.  Had you merely been pushing the line a bit, you would still be editing.  You appear, previously and still, to be openly defiant of Wikipedia's right to set such a line and enforce it.
 * Whether you feel this is right or not - that's our policy, to defend our community as a whole. There are plenty of internal critics who have never been subject to any administrative action.  Plenty of them use humor and satire.  I welcome and encourage them, it's a healthy part of the project.
 * What you did was beyond that.
 * If you chose to accept our community standards, to work within the community and within community standards of behavior, the block can end. If you chose to reject it, you place yourself outside the community by that action.  The block is merely acknowledging your choice in that matter.
 * It is up to you. If you agree to change and can convince me or another admin, your block could end tomorrow.  If your statements above are functionally your last word, then your status will remain unchanged.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:56, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I've only just noticed this. Your actions remind me of the perverse actions of Loudoun Commonwealth’s Attorney Jim Plowman. HarryAlffa (talk) 14:32, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Harry, I've just reblocked you with talk-page access disabled, as that last comparison is so far over the top it's not funny. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:23, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Truth?
It's funny (peculiar) how many admins can come to all sorts of conclusions about my motivations etc. but no one in this ANI can bring themselves to say that Ruslik told a number of untruths there.

Can anyone say that Ruslik's statement in that ANI, about my contribution to the Aurora (astronomy) article, is true?

"you are trying to use a confusing terminology, which you invented yourself."

- Ruslik

TRUE

NOT TRUE
 * 1) HarryAlffa (talk) 18:03, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I think you may have misrepresented me
While I will continue to help you in your efforts to edit various subjects, according to policy and consensus, I would appreciate it if you did not misquote me. I said, to the effect of, if you ignored your ArbCom page and edited elsewhere then the page might be redeleted, but if you continued to work upon it toward an eventual case then it should be okay. I did not say that you should not edit other areas while you prepared your case - and I am disappointed that you inferred that I did. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:10, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I couldn't quite remember precisely what you said, nor where you said it, so was careful not to directly attribute this to you. I understood you to be giving an opinion on the likely view taken by others, not that this was an instruction from you to me. But I remembered taking a very strict interpretation of what you said;

"providing that you are working upon the Request when you are active on WP then it remains timely - it would only be a problem if you were editing and picking up new projects and allowing the potential evidence pages to languish in your userspace in the meantime. Any activity in regard to the Request, be it piecemeal or not, suffices."


 * The strictest interpretation I regarded they would take was, "a problem if you were editing and picking up new projects". I therefore felt inhibited from doing anything else. How does someone define "ignored"? If I edited elsewhere for five minutes? Five hours? I would expect someone to put the boot in under almost any pretext - as in this indefinite block, whose reasoning was arrived at after the decision to block was made. Hence the "review" of my contributions after I took issue with his reasoning on his claims of breaches of policy. HarryAlffa (talk) 19:27, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 *  and allowing the... pages to languish in the meantime. It was not meant to be an either/or scenario - as ever, I qualify most everything I say. Nevermind, our comments here should clarify what was meant and what was understood.
 * So, what now? Do you intend to develop the ArbCom page while remaining blocked, or will you seek to formally request review of the block on the basis you will disengage from referring to the other parties of a potential RfAR outside of your preparing your case? Either way, it is likely to be expedient to make the choice known rather than remain in the limbo you now find yourself. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:24, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
 *  and allowing the... pages to languish in the meantime. Having your emphasis here reassures me that others will be inhibited by it.
 * This ANI seems to be at the centre of things. I think it shows a corrupt core of admins refusing to sanction their own for lies and deceit. I'd like someone to explain to me why asking candidates about the 5 days of silence from admins in this ANI is different from the many other questions to candidates on their opinions on previous ArbCom decisions. HarryAlffa (talk) 15:08, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Without going through all the other various questions to various candidates, I would suggest that the apparent impropriety of the question you posed was that it was deemed unlikely that you were interested in the answer from each candidate asked, insofar that it would determine if you would support or oppose on the basis of the response. I sense that it was felt that you were instead interested only in publicising the issues you have with various admins and editors. To be honest, it is not an interpretation that can be easily dismissed - since it follows you posting to Admin noticeboards, Jimbo's talkpage, and to ArbCom, content with a similar agenda. Even I am not going to commit myself to an opinion on whether it was a legitimate attempt to ascertain candidates position on such matters by means of an example, and I have and am prepared to extend good faith in regard to your concerns more than most people on this site.
 * So, the question remains - are you going to request unblock under conditions that you feel may be acceptable to the community, or are you going to continue to prepare your ArbCom case in your usertalk space? LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:00, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the possibility of a corrupt core of admins is a problem worth asking candidates on. So if anybody else posted this exact question there wouldn't be a problem with it? Particularly, I imagine, if it were a well respected admin with an impeccable record positing it?

I read each of the candidates statements, and used that to judge if this question would be useful, look at the time between asking the candidates questions. Also look at the "ignore all evidence" question, this occurred to me as I was going along and it must be regarded as a general behavioural question when linked to the "5 days" question, plus this shows it was not a "spam" question to all candidates, I did pay attention to their statements.

This is the question I posed to select candidates. What general concerns do you think are raised by the 5 days of silence from the community's admins in this ANI? Are there any other general concerns which arise from the ANI?

Do these quotes;

 "WP:AGF does not require ignoring actual evidence..."

- Jehochman

 "In the real world people are sanctioned for lying. It should be the same here. ...we can certainly sanction them for actively trying to be deceptive."

- Jehochman

ameliorate, add to or amplify concerns?

Do you agree with the substance of the Jehochman quotes?

If an essay WP:IGNORE ALL THE EVIDENCE were written, what concerns would be behind it, and what could be done about them? If you can point me to another ANI where lies and deceit by two admins within an ANI were ignored by the other admins in attendance for somewhere close to 5 days, then I will ask exactly the same question of those select candidates, substituting this with that example. Would that be acceptable?

Have you seen such examples of systemic corruption before? Or is this the only one? Of course to answer that you would also have to answer; can you say in all honesty that you think Ruslik did not lie in this ANI? If you choose not to answer... is it because you believe it is the moral thing to do, or because of possible intimidation or repercussions on your good self? HarryAlffa (talk) 14:18, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I would also add that in this ANI Ckatz said he didn't want to hide this ANI, but that is exactly what has happened, perhaps his declaration was code for a request? An interpretation of "cover-up the corruption" is equally hard to dismiss as the interpretation of "publicizing issues" - it's a terrible thing to make things on-Wiki more publicly available, and anyway, how does "publicizing" an ANI in which I was admonished help me? HarryAlffa (talk) 14:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The truth is, admin abuse is often "ignored" by other admins; simply because taking action upon it often means a lot of work, a lot of heated discussion - often with accusations and counterclaims, with rarely a positive outcome. Sometimes the debate just winds down, or there is some form of words by which the abusive admin says "sorry" (usually only for being found out), or a long term adversarial relationship is started. Admins are generally happy to let someone else deal with it, and there are very few admins so secure in their history not to want to be seen as crusading. That is a pretty ugly thing to say, but it is the truth. This is one of the reasons why I am working toward having the community create a method of desysopping bad admins more easily, because it will be used by those most at risk from abusive admins and they won't mind doing the work.
 * However, my main point is that - like some of your content disputes - it is the perception of your attitude and of the intent of your interactions that drive other peoples responses. Whatever basis in process or good faith concern you have regarding cliques of abusive admins, the response you got was, "HarryAlffa is going after those admins he is supposed to be Requesting Arbitration over, again". Even if you were asking general questions, it was done in the same manner in which you wrote on Jimbo's talkpage, the admin Noticeboard, and the initial ArbCom "request". Even if you didn't use the names of the admins in this instance, the perception was that you were inferring those admins or would use any response to your general questions to use in your actions regarding those admins (and that was your intent). Sorry, Harry, but you may just have to bite the bullet and acknowledge that any action you take or question you ask will be viewed in the perception of your ongoing disputes with various parties. You will have to either accept these consequences of such actions, or agree to stop asking those questions (until the RfAR is over, at least).
 * The other thing is, as I am being even more honest than usual, that I don't believe there is a consipiracy of bad admins at work here. There are bad admins on Wikipedia, and some of them congregate around the same topics, but I do not see an organised grouping of them. There was a clique of abusive admins a few years back, and I am noting as one by one they are being stripped of their previous influence (as well as their sysop and other rights, and prestige). However, I do not see the conspiracy you do - at most I see a few admins reacting to pressure by supporting each other, not great but not the nefarious undertaking you seem to see. As such I am not sure why an editor or admin in good standing who does not perceive the same issues should ask the question. In my case, I won't because I see admin abuse being a question of lack of process in dealing with it on a community basis rather than how an Arb may consider an instance as being abusive - which is why my question to the candidates reflect my concern.
 * I thank you for your concern, but there is no potential intimidation or concerns about repercussions that has meant I have not dealt with the concerns raised; I have not considered them, is all. I have not because I am not interested in taking the role of (co)prosecutor of these claims, but as an advocate to allowing you to present the claims. I think you have a very good case that your concerns are ignored and your edits reverted without consideration of the content, simply because an attitude has hardened in regard to your manner of interacting. I think you have every right to ask why information you provided in article space was reverted in total, because of issues regarding your relationships with some editors, despite some, most or even all of it being supported by the references you provided, and I agree that the reasons given do not properly reflect the actuality. I am not minded to argue whether the references are good, or whether all the content you included was fully supported by those sources, because that is a matter of dispute resolution, but am minded to say you were not given the good faith assumption that was your due, and that relationships between you and some other editors have deteriorated to such an extent that ArbCom is necessary to resolve the disruption to the project it causes.
 * Ultimately, Harry, I am not interested in fighting your battles for you - I am interested in fighting for your right to fight your battles fairly and without hinderance for yourself. So, again, I ask, what do you intend to do about your RfAR? LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

MfD nomination of User:HarryAlffa/ArbCom/Wikipedia:Politeness Police
User:HarryAlffa/ArbCom/Wikipedia:Politeness Police, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:HarryAlffa/ArbCom/Wikipedia:Politeness Police and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes ( ~ ). You are free to edit the content of User:HarryAlffa/ArbCom/Wikipedia:Politeness Police during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:28, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Notification: Proposed 'Motion to Close' at Wikipedia:Community de-adminship/Draft RfC
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Community de-adminship/Draft RfC re: a 'Motion to close', which would dissolve Cda as a proposal. The motion includes an !vote. You have previously commented at this page. Jusdafax  02:48, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Hm. On further examination, it appears you are under indef block. Ironic. Jusdafax  02:52, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Community de-Adminship - finalization poll for the CDA proposal
After tolling up the votes in the revision proposals, it emerged that 5.4 had the most support, but elements of that support remained unclear, and various comments throughout the polls needed consideration.

A finalisation poll (intended, if possible, to be one last poll before finalising the CDA proposal) has been run to;


 * gather opinion on the 'consensus margin' (what percentages, if any, have the most support) and


 * ascertain whether there is support for a 'two-phase' poll at the eventual RfC (not far off now), where CDA will finally be put to the community. Matt Lewis (talk) 01:03, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Community de-Adminship - finalization poll for the CDA proposal
After tolling up the votes in the revision proposals, it emerged that 5.4 had the most support, but elements of that support remained unclear, and various comments throughout the polls needed consideration.

A finalisation poll (intended, if possible, to be one last poll before finalising the CDA proposal) has been run to;


 * gather opinion on the 'consensus margin' (what percentages, if any, have the most support) and


 * ascertain whether there is support for a 'two-phase' poll at the eventual RfC (not far off now), where CDA will finally be put to the community. Matt Lewis (talk) 01:03, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

RfC on Community de-adminship
You are receiving this message because you contributed to Wikipedia talk:Community de-adminship/Draft RfC and have not participated at Community de-adminship/RfC or been directly informed this RfC has opened. Please accept my apologies if you have been informed of and/or participated in the RfC already.

This RfC has opened and your comments are welcome and encouraged. Please visit Community de-adminship/RfC. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 16:15, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Notification of automated file description generation
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 * Another one of your uploads, File:ASTRA - Airdrie Library Building Anderson Street.JPG, has also had some information automatically added. If you get a moment, please review the bot's contributions there as well. Thanks! Message delivered by Theo's Little Bot (opt-out) 12:25, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Files missing description details
Dear uploader: The media files you uploaded as: are missing a description and/or other details on their image description pages. If possible, please add this information. This will help other editors make better use of the images, and they will be more informative to readers.
 * File:ASTRA - Airdrie Library Building Anderson Street.JPG
 * File:ASTRA - Airdrie Library Building Anderson Street roof dome site.JPG

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