User talk:Hcrayner

Speedy deletion nomination of EPM Live (Software)


A tag has been placed on EPM Live (Software), requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article seems to be unambiguous advertising that only promotes a company, product, group, service or person and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become an encyclopedia article. Please read the general criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item G11, as well as the guidelines on spam.

If you can indicate why the subject of this article is not blatant advertising,. Clicking that button will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit |the article's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. You may freely add information to the article that would confirm the subject's notability under Wikipedia guidelines. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would help make it encyclopedic, as well as adding any citations from independent reliable sources to ensure that the article will be verifiable. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Syrthiss (talk) 12:36, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Welcome
Welcome!

Hello, Hcrayner, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place  before the question. Again, welcome! Syrthiss (talk) 12:37, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
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Speedy deletion nomination of EPM Live


A tag has been placed on EPM Live, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G4 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion debate,. Under the specified criteria, where an article has substantially identical content to that of an article deleted after debate, and any changes in the content do not address the reasons for which the material was previously deleted, it may be deleted at any time.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Eeekster (talk) 02:00, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

EPM Live deletion
I have read your post to my talk page. Although on my talk page I say that I will reply there, I have decided to make an exception in this case, as it may be more helpful to you to have my comments on your talk page. For convenience I will quote the text of your message here. "Hi James, I noticed that you deleted my articles in both tools stating there were not enough notable sources but I ensured that I included as many notable sources as several other softwares in the tool as well as the same kind of notable sources. Can you provide guidance as to what I need to do to do it right. I use these tools frequently as well as send many other users to these pages so I'd like to add a few more software tools in the list that deserve to be there. Thanks so much! —"

EPM Live (Software) was tagged for deletion as promotional, and looking at it I agreed, so I deleted it. It was full of such language as "Due to its comprehensive yet easy to use capabilities as well as its free work application templates", "leveraging key capabilities", and "an adaptable work management solution that can connect easily with solutions". That is the sort of language as is used in marketing materials, designed to tell us how good a product is, not the sort of language one expects to see in a report written by an impartial outsider to inform us neutrally of what the product is like. One or two sentences like that could easily have been changed or removed, but when the whole tone of the article is like that it is not so easy. I had nothing to do with either editing or deleting EPM Live, but it seems to have been similar.

As you are probably aware, several earlier versions of EPM Live had been deleted, both for the same reason of being promotional and because of lack of notability. Consequently I looked carefully at the version you wrote to see if you had demonstrated notability. Unfortunately most of the references you provided were essentially press releases. To establish notability it is necessary to have substantial coverage in reliable sources which are independent of the subject.

You say you would "like to add a few more software tools in the list that deserve to be there". Well, that depends what you mean by "deserves". There are many software tools which I regard as very useful, and which I would personally be happy to see listed on Wikipedia, but which do not have the kind of notability that Wikipedia requires. I suggest looking at the notability guidelines and the guideline to reliable sources to see what sort of thing is needed. As far as writing about software companies (but not software itself) is concerned, you may find FAQ/Organizations helpful. (There is also Notability (organizations and companies), but frankly there are, in my opinion, far too many of these guidelines, policies, etc, and trying to read all of them before you do anything is likely to confuse more than help, and I suggest that FAQ/Organizations is likely to be more helpful.) It is possible that some or all of the software tools you have in mind do not satisfy Wikipedia's notability standards. If that is the case you would be better off forgetting about them and directing any time you are willing to put into work on Wikipedia into other areas, rather than waste time putting in a lot of work that will just be deleted. I am not trying to put you off editing, in fact on the contrary, I am trying to help you avoid the disheartening experience of finding everything you do is deleted, which is likely to put you off editing.

I see that Syrthiss has given you a welcome message, with a few links to pages that may be helpful. I will give you another one, with even more links, not because I think it is realistic to expect you to read them all, but because you may find some of them useful. Do have at least a brief look at the ones which seem most relevant, and certainly at the general notability guideline.

A word of advice. From my experience I think it is a mistake to start off by writing articles. So many times I have seen people come to Wikipedia full of enthusiasm and start writing articles, only to see article after article deleted because they did not satisfy our guidelines. Such people naturally tend to become frustrated, and eventually leave, very disappointed with their experience. Other people come here and start by making small changes to existing articles. If you do that, you can gradually learn how Wikipedia works, and the mistakes you make will just be little ones, and you won't lose lots of work. After a while you will know better how things work, and you will be able to write articles which stand a much better chance of staying. This is, of course, just my advice, which you are free to take or leave, but in my experience those of us who start in that gradual way have a much better likelihood of eventually writing articles successfully than those who jump in at the deep end.

One more point. It is natural for a new Wikipedia editor to look at existing articles to see what is acceptable, but unfortunately it is not a reliable guide. Among the three million plus articles on English Wikipedia there are many which don't satisfy Wikipedia's guidelines, and many of them will be deleted once they are noticed. Nobody can check all of them. That doesn't mean, of course, that you can't learn from looking at other articles, but it does mean that you should be cautious.

Sorry to have been part of what must have been a rather discouraging introduction to editing Wikipedia, and I do hope you have a better time from now on. I will just sign off and leave you the welcome message I promised. JamesBWatson (talk) 21:51, 9 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Dear Hcrayner, I was going to reply but I think James has made an excellent response that hit on the major points of what I would say. I will also apologize if this has been frustrating for you.  From our end, for years the Comparison of project management software and similar articles have been magnets for people spamming their products and as a result of our efforts to clean that up we may be overzealous in our scrutiny of new articles. Syrthiss (talk) 12:40, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Welcome!
Hello Hcrayner! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions to this free encyclopedia. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. If you you need any help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place   on your talk page and ask your question there. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Happy editing! JamesBWatson (talk) 21:51, 9 November 2011 (UTC)