User talk:Hendonian

Abraham Wolf
Hey Hendonian! First of all, welcome to Wikipedia. I really, really appreciate your attempt at rewriting the Abraham Wolf article but unfortunately I don't think your version passes muster. To be sure, there's plenty of useful stuff there and if you'd like to email me your sources I'd be happy to work with you on those. But as it stands, what you've written does not conform with our guidelines, particularly with regard to style and verifiability. A quick tip would be to work on your inline citations! Moreover, it's not a good practice to just "rewrite" established articles wholesale, unless you feel something is glaringly wrong with it. Kingoflettuce (talk) 18:16, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * As it happens, I did chance upon his ancestry.com profile but that doesn't count as a reliable source. I don't doubt that you're his descendant--all the same, I can't just take your word for it! I would encourage you to familiarise yourself with our core policies. Cheers, Kingoflettuce (talk) 18:18, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * You could also check out the help desk if you need more pointers :) Kingoflettuce (talk) 18:22, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * And when MB draftified your article, you should have asked why first, instead of going ahead to re-publish an already-existing article. But once again, thanks for the effort and I hope we can incorporate some of it into the article! Cheers, Kingoflettuce (talk) 18:25, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Dear KingofLettuce?, first I would like you to know that I am the grandson of Abraham Wolf. My mother was Muriel Wolf his daughter and I was less than 1 year old when he died. It is for this reason that I am interested in seeing the best possible account of his life and achievements posted for posterity. You needn't doubt my descendancy, I own his memorabilia (Spinoza medal, Spinoza woodcarving, all of his books(some of which I have read), galley proofs and original handwritten texts and poems to Sophie, photograph albums from which the picture you retained is from and posted to Wiki by me. I even have his will!  I was personally invited to view the Spinoza collection at UCLA and can provide you with any proof if you are in doubt. Unfortunately as an older computer user I lack some of the knowhow and mastery of using Wiki which you have acquired.  I am very curious as to your own interest in Prof.Wolf.  For the longest time there was no Wiki and that's why I started mine late last year which had been in the sandbox.

My concern is to have the most comprehensive, accurate well written account to reflect Prof. Wolf's intellect and ability to communicate clearly and concisely which I believe my contribution has to offer. Considerable time, effort and pains were spent in preparing this for publication. Whilst I may not have fulfilled the Wiki details that you suggest I am sure that some collaboration can address the deficiencies. I don't know how or why or where you obtained your information but I must question some of your conclusions. e.g. translation of Maimonides, that he renounced his religion etc. Also the bibliography is not one of his writings which were considerable and some are still in print but presumably are citations some of which are unfamiliar to me.

So I hope you will allow me to put back my much fuller, personal and detailed dedication to a worthy scholar to do him justice as he did to his subjects. I am hopeful that we can collaborate on this to meet the Wiki requirements that are perplexing and somewhat daunting to a novice. Thanks BW David
 * Thanks David! I think I understand what you're saying. Like I said, I don't doubt that you are his descendant, but I can't take your word for it (it referring to the new content that you're trying to introduce). Information here must be verifiable and backed up by independent, third-party sources. It's so interesting, obviously I had no idea you were drafting an article about Prof. Wolf in your sandbox. His name came up a few weeks ago during one of my modules and I thought he ought to have his own article. I share your concerns and believe me, it was hard enuf getting the info that you currently see on the mainspace. As much as I would like to add the facts that YOU know to be true--and which I'm sure are indeed true--I cannot do so until they are verifiable. Unfortunately, we refrain from engaging in original research, so it's not like I can just interview you and add facts that you have gleaned from his personal artefacts and so forth. What I believe I have done is faithfully synthesise and paraphrase conclusions and facts that others have presented. So for instance, where does it say that he renounced his religion?I've cited Haberman, who writes about his turning away from Reform Judaism to secular life devoted entirely to philosophy and that Disillusioned, he could only conclude that "there are many who simply drift away from Judaism... and Wolf wrote nothing substantive on Jewish themes again and His doubts about Judaism and specifically about Reform left him little choice but to leave the fold. Now, these may in the worst case be fabrications, but I'm not in a position to determine that. In a way, we are less in the business of "truth" as we are "verifiable factoids". Hope this helps, Kingoflettuce (talk) 00:01, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
 * If you have, say, newspaper clippings mentioning where your grandfather passed, when he was born, or the names of his children and spouse, etc. those would be usable. I've searched far and wide online and haven't been very successful. Kingoflettuce (talk) 00:07, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
 * And if I'm understanding you correctly, that means you must be in your eighties now! How remarkable! Kingoflettuce (talk) 00:09, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Or 70s, rather. Maths was never my strong suit. Still so remarkable! Truly, thank you for reaching out. Kingoflettuce (talk) 00:10, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi KingofLettuce again...are you really? Thanks for your prompt response with explanations provided. I do have the original obituaries from several newspapers including one in the Daily Telegraph dated 26/5/48 and can share information that is verifiable, not just by searching the internet which may not always be the best or most authentic. The obituary in one newspaper states that A.Wolf was born in Aldgate which is quite possible. I went personally to the Public Records office at Kew to search for birth certificates, naturalization papers etc which was an interesting undertaking. Also same obituary states that his father was an export cloth merchant which isn't the same as a shopkeeper. Just examples of what and whether information that far back is verifiable. You refer to Jacob Haberman's article from JSTOR in 1991 as the source of your synthesis. Haberman was born in 1932 and was Swiss American who in all likelihood would have no personal knowledge of A.Wolf as he would have been 16 at the time of Wolf's death. I have taken trouble to access the archives of the Manchester Congregation of British Jews 1857- 1957 in articles written during Wolf's tenure as Rabbi by P.S.Goldberg which are first hand accounts to get as complete a picture as possible. I wish I could have done this personally but I was an infant at the time. What is most troubling to me in your albeit difficult search to synthesize/paraphrase his endeavours is that you have neglected to attend to his most important contributions related to the ongoing understanding of the great philosopher Spinoza. Wolf would not have collected over 8000 books and gone broke just to keep them in his office. Surely his evolution as a scholar from representative of a biblical tradition to an enlightened reporter the modern world and its technology and science as I have outlined in some depth is worth more than a superficial parsing of internet gleanings. His 15 page summary of the "Life and writings of Spinoza" in the Britannica which was the internet of the day alone is testament to the importance that he gave these studies and to gloss over this seems more of an insult than a tribute. For the purposes of some random person using wiki as an encyclopedia this is much more interesting, worthwhile and germane than trite comments from Haberman who writes about his turning away from Reform Judaism to secular life devoted entirely to philosophy}} and that {{tq|Disillusioned, he could only conclude that "there are many who simply drift away from Judaism...etc.  Haberman may not have thought much about Wolf being cremated albeit in a (jewish) Crematorium in Golders Green.  I therefore urge you to reconsider your position/concerns and give my account its due. I won't be satisfied with the article as it stands.  Respectfully David. ˜˜˜˜
 * Yes, I agree with your sentiments 1000%. I'm sorry if what's presented feels insulting in some way and there's definitely room for improvement. But we cannot introduce our own inferences and I am compelled to rely on others' like Haberman's. Essentially, if there isn't another reliable source that really gets to the heart of his scientific/religious contributions, then I can only rely on Haberman's. Unfortunately, that's the situation when it comes to info going beyond what he did---what his work meant. Kingoflettuce (talk) 11:38, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Now, I think what would be much easier to immediately address are the more "objective" biographical details about Prof. Wolf's life. So according to you, {{tq|Also same obituary states that his father was an export cloth merchant which isn't the same as a shopkeeper.}} Haberman is the one who explicitly calls him a shopkeeper, not me. I would love to correct that information or at least point out the contradiction between sources but I need access to what you have. Please send whatever you can to me and I will see what I can do. I must trouble you to "Email this user" (just click on my username and on the left-hand corner under "Tools" you will see the option to email me) I will try my best to do the article justice! Kingoflettuce (talk) 11:38, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Arbitrary page break (for ease of reading)
If I may quote from the email you sent me: It also adds nothing to what is already on the internet when one does a search. Unfortunately, that ought to be the case---we don't engage in original research. Perhaps we could introduce a full list of published works by A. Wolf in the article (by the way, the "Bibliography" right now doesn't refer to works by Wolf but the third-party reliable sources cited...) but we cannot go further. So I could add a complete list of books that Wolf wrote on Spinoza, for instance, but it is not up to me to decide how influential or important they were. A third-party, independent reliable source needs to say that. Again, I would be very appreciative if you could send me the newspaper clippings you speak of so I can add the biographical details that are currently missing, birth date, birth place, family members, etc. As for a more satisfactory analysis of his scholarship, I'm afraid I will need reliable sources for that too. Kingoflettuce (talk) 17:50, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Welcome!
Hello, Hendonian, and welcome to Wikipedia! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Unfortunately, one or more of the pages you created may not conform to some of Wikipedia's content policies and may not be retained. In short, the topic of an article must be notable and have already been the subject of publication by reliable and independent sources.

Please review Your first article for an overview of the article creation process. The Article Wizard is available to help you create an article, where it will be reviewed and considered for publication. For information on how to request a new article that can be created by someone else, see Requested articles. If you are stuck, come to the Teahouse, where experienced Wikipedians can help you through the processes.

New to Wikipedia? Please consider taking a look at our introductory tutorial or reviewing the contributing to Wikipedia page to learn the basics about editing. Below are a few other good pages about article creation.
 * Article development
 * Standard layout
 * Lead section
 * The perfect article
 * Task Center – need some ideas of what kind of things need doing? Go here.

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, ask me on my talk page or you can just type help me on this page, followed by your question, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! Kingoflettuce (talk) 18:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)