User talk:Henry A. Gibson

February 2023
Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Canadian Indian residential school gravesites. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been or will be reverted. Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive. Continued disruptive editing may result in loss of editing privileges. ''Stop doing this. You are removing the existing links and sources, and even the header, and adding unsourced information. Leaving a fake edit summary does not help. And please read WP:MINOR'' Meters (talk) 18:19, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * If you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor, please discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the article's talk page, and seek consensus with them. Alternatively, you can read Wikipedia's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant noticeboards.
 * If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, please seek assistance at Wikipedia's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.


 * Hello Meters.
 * It was not my intent to be disruptive, and I apologize if that was the appearance of my edits. I don't know who provided the original content of the notes about the Regina Indian Industrial School and Cemetery, and so I have no personal dispute with the author of that material. As a member of the RIIS Commemorative Association for seven years and its secretary for four of those years I am thoroughly familiar with the history of both the Regina School and the Cemetery, and so I was surprised to come upon the Wikipedia article and find several factual errors such as the results of the two radar searches, plus mistaken statements such as the role of the RCMP in the transfer of the property (the agreed to the land transfer after negotiations, they did not initiate it).
 * The editing of the notes about the Regina Cemetery is my first attempt to edit material for Wikipedia, and I have clearly botched the effort. The absence of references is specific references is due to the fact that it would be difficult to find them other than an occasion article from the Regina Leader Post, and the fact of the matter is that the RIIS Commemorative
 * Association is the primary and most reliable source for the content of the article. The removal of the header was unintended; I attempted to restore it but wasn't able to do so.
 * If you decide to reject my edits in whole or in part, I will of course accept that decision, but I stand by my assertion that the original article if seriously flawed. Henry A. Gibson (talk) 19:24, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * If the current content is flawed then please do fix it, but do it properly. We want the article to be correct, but twice now you have removed all of the existing links and sources, and replaced the content with unsourced content. It is up to you to provide reliable sources in the article for your changes. If you don't know how to make the edits properly then I suggest that you provide as much information as possible on the article's talk page and let someone else make the edits. Meters (talk) 19:34, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * In view of your comments, I am proposing that the references remain as they appear in the original article and that the following edits be made in the interests of accuracy:
 * Sentence 2: the number 22 be changed to 28.
 * Sentence 5 would read: "In 2014, an unpublished report by the Regina Planning Department indicated that the site contained the remains of (insert "about 35") First Nations and Metis children, as well as the bodies of (insert "two" rather than "the") children of the school's first principal."
 * Sentence 8 would read: "The RCMP, who owned the land adjacent to the cemetery ('were approached and indicated their willingness to discuss a land transfer')."
 * Sentence 10 would read: "An arrangement was reached between ("the private owners of the property," "not between the realtor who owned the property ...").
 * Sentence 11 would be edited to read, "believed to have been buried there", not "identified to have been buried there."
 * All other sentences would remain as they were and, as noted above, all references would remain as they appeared in the original.
 * Would this be acceptable? Henry A. Gibson (talk) 21:33, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi @Henry A. Gibson. Thank you for jumping in to edit this article, it is always valuable to have expert editors, and given that you are a member of the RIIS Commemorative Association, you have much valuable insight that can go to improving this article. Some of the changes you outline above cannot be carried out until we have sources we can link to that verify them, as unfortunately the inaccuracy you identify in the article as it stands is due to the sources presently in it. "Shattering the Silence", the first source, says 22 graves were found. I note that it does support your edit to sentence 5, so I will implement that. Unfortunately, the RLP article that is our second source characterizes the RCMP as the agents that initiated the discussions, and specifically mentions a "realtor" who owned the property-- but other sources simply indicate "private owner", so I think that is a reasonable enough edit. As for "believed to" vs "identified to"... this is a thorny topic for this article, though I admit in reviewing the sources, they do tend more towards the "believed to" rather than "identified to" when discussing what the feathers mark.
 * So, if you are able to find a reliable published source that indicates 28 graves identified rather than 22, as well as one that characterizes the RCMP involvement in the way you do above, I would be happy to include it in this article. Thanks again! James Hyett (talk) 14:13, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your response, Mr. Hyett, and for the opportunity to salvage my submission with proposed edits to the article about the Regina Indian Industrial School. I believe I can supply the background information and references that you require.
 * First, I've have gone to the "Shattering the Silence" site originating with the U of R Project of Heart whose efforts to promote reconciliation I've been aware of for several years, but whose article about the Regina Indian Industrial School I had never read. There is helpful and reliable information in their articles, but they had no direct contact with the RIIS Commemorative Association to check the accuracy of what they wrote, for example, the statement that the first of the two radar searches of the cemetery indicated 22 potential grave sites (in addition to the marked grave of the first principal's two infant children). In response to that claim I could offer various citations from the minutes and other documents of the Commemorative Association. I'll include a link to an official document called Regina Indian Industrial School and Cemetery Timeline that has been used for nearly a decade Henry A. Gibson (talk) 23:11, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, starting over.
 * Thanks for your response, Mr. Hyett, and for the opportunity to revise my proposed edits to the article in question. I believe I can supply the background information and references that you require.
 * First, I've gone to the "Shattering the Silence" site originating with the U of R Project of Heart whose efforts to promote reconciliation have been known to me for several years, but whose article about the Regina Indian Industrial School I hadn't read. There is helpful and reliable information in their article, but they made no direct contact with the RIIS Commemorative Association to confirm the accuracy of what they wrote - for example, the statement that the first of the two ground radar searches indicated just 22 potential grave sites. In response to that claim I could offer various citations from the minutes and other documents of the Commemorative Association. I'll include excerpts from just one: an official document called "Regina Industrial School Timeline" that has been used for nearly a decade to provide factual information to the general public, Indigenous communities, descendants of students who attended the School, Saskatchewan schools, and other interested groups and individuals. See this entry for 2012:
 * "Stantec Consulting conducts survey of cemetery site. Locates several burial sites: 28 in addition to McLeod children’s marker."
 * See also the entry from late 2014 where more potential grave sites are detected:
 * "Stantec conducts second survey and finds 6 more grave sites outside the cemetery fence on the south side, for a total of 34 possible graves."
 * On another key matter, I'll refer to a document that reveals the role of M.P. Ralph Goodale, as Canada's Minister of Public Safety, in the land transfer (in contrast to the claim that the RCMP tool the initiative) one contained in an email attachment I received from RCMP Officer David Calam, second in command at the Regina Depot, on June 6, 2019. It's an update on the sharing of information in preparation for the transfer ceremony set for June 25.
 * "The RCMP is immediately transferring the RIIS Cemetery to the RIIS Commemorative Association. The Government of Canada has initiated the transfer of this land in an act of Reconciliation with Indigenous peoples of Canada, fulfilling the Truth and Reconciliation Call to Action #75."
 * The behind-the-scenes negotiations leading up to the transfer of the cemetery property were a sensitive matter that would be known only to the parties concerned: the federal government, represented by Ralph Goodale, the leadership within the RCMP, the private owners and their representative, and the Board of the Commemorative Association, of which I was a member and secretary. At the transfer ceremony itself, M.P. Goodale was the first speaker, but he deliberately took a back seat to Commissioner Brenda Lucki, and so it's not at all surprising that the media and others assumed that the RCMP were the instigators of the transfer.
 * And to address the question of the owners of the property, they were two businessmen from southern Ontario who were represented in Regina by a Realtor who was also a relative, Nadeem Islam. Nadeem acted as a communications link on behalf of the owners and he represented them at the the transfer ceremony, but he was not himself an owner or a decision maker it the transfer process.
 * I could probably write up the proposed edits again with the references I have provided, although I'm not confident I can do that clearly and succinctly, and in keeping with the required format. The problem remains that the article referenced by the Project of Heart group contains several errors: the number of potential gravesites, the role of the RCMP, and, incidentally, the references to the Church and local body who operated the school: It should be "the Presbyterian Church IN Canada," not "OF", and the "Women's Missionary Society" not the "Foreign Mission Committee." Reference: the book, "The Regina Indian Industrial School (1891 - 1910)" by Douglas Stewart, Benchmark Press, 2017.
 * Please advise. Henry A. Gibson (talk) 03:50, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi again, and sorry for the delay. Thank you for taking the time to write this all out. I'm sorry to hear about the inaccuracies in the U of R document. Unfortunately, Wikipedia's guidelines on reliable, published sources requires, principally, that all sources on Wikipedia be published, that is any source that was made available to the public in some form. If I'm understanding you correctly, the "Regina Industrial School Timeline" document you referenced is internal to the Commemorative Association, and has not been published. We will therefore be unable to use it as a source. The same goes for the email you cited.
 * I see that the book you reference at the end of your message is contained on the RIISCA website. On page 31 of the book, I find reference to ground-penetrating radar investigations from 2010 and 2012, where "archaeologists detected 38 "anomalies" interpreted as likely burial sites... 32 of which are located inside the current fenced area and 6 immediately outside that area" including 2 or 3 of the principal's children, as well as the principal and his wife. I'm now a bit confused at the discrepancy between 34 and 38, but perhaps it is because of the principal's family? (34=38-4?)
 * Regardless, I think that should prove a sufficient source for the question of accurate numbers, as well as the errors in terminology you pointed out. As for the confusion around the RCMP's involvement, until we have a published source that clarifies things, there isn't much that we can do to the article. I shall remove the sentence about the RCMP owned the land adjacent and initiated the transfer, and keep the one about a multilateral agreement between the owners, RCMP, and RIISCA. Let me know if there is anything else. James Hyett (talk) 14:36, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello again, James. No problem about the delay.
 * I understand your need for published sources to support changes to existing documents, and I agree that the "Timeline" I provided and the quote from RCMP Officer David Calam are, in fact, internal documents to the RIIS Commemorative Association, despite the fact that the former has been widely distributed. The book authored by Douglas Stewart, Professor Emeritus of the U of R, on the other hand, meets the necessary requirement, I believe.
 * As luck or fate would have it, there is a further complication. For the past three or four years, Doug (a friend of mine) has been in the process of expanding the contents of his book to include information about the cemetery and also to correcting some errors that found their way into the original edition.
 * More than one of those errors are contained in the passage you quoted from page 32 (not 31) of his book. I spoke with Doug by phone this afternoon and he confirmed that the two ground penetrating scans, conducted by Stantec Consulting, took place in 2012 and 2014, not 2010 and 2012 (the cemetery was not 'rediscovered' until 2011). Also, Doug confirmed that the number of probable gravesites from the first scan was 28, not 22, and from the second scan, six more, for a total of 34 (or 36 if one includes the two McLeod children).
 * Doug stated that his research has left him with the conclusion that the exact number of children buried in the RIIS cemetery may never be known short of exhuming the remains, which no one, including the Indigenous descendants, is in favour of doing. So, we are left with a degree of ambiguity.
 * One thing that is known, however, is that Principal McLeod and his wife were not buried in the RIIS Cemetery; Doug's research revealed that they were buried in the cemetery at Kincardine, Ontario. Only 35 - 40 persons, all of them children, are buried in the RIIS Cemetery, as Mrs. McAra wrote in her letter to Indian Affairs in 1921.
 * If more questions remain to be answered, please let me know. Bill Henry A. Gibson (talk) 01:17, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If more questions remain to be answered, please let me know. Bill Henry A. Gibson (talk) 01:17, 14 March 2023 (UTC)