User talk:Henrycornwell

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Speedy deletion nomination of Cruz Vermelha de Timor-Leste
A tag has been placed on Cruz Vermelha de Timor-Leste requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be a blatant copyright infringement. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. This part is crucial: say it in your own words.

If the external website belongs to you, and you want to allow Wikipedia to use the text — which means allowing other people to modify it — then you must verify that externally by one of the processes explained at Donating copyrighted materials. If you are not the owner of the external website but have permission from that owner, see Requesting copyright permission. You might want to look at Wikipedia's policies and guidelines for more details, or ask a question here.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Tad Lincoln (talk) 00:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Cut right back, since we can only accept content completely without copyright strings attached. Please rewrite rather than copy-paste. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:56, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Further to my response on the Help Desk:
 * 1) If you do want to use the material on the redcross.tl website, there are two ways (as detailed in WP:IOWN):
 * 2) On the website, place an explicit note permitting reuse under the Creative Commons Attribution-Sharealike 3.0 Unported License (CC-BY-SA) and the GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) (unversioned, with no invariant sections, front-cover texts, or back-cover texts) at the site of the original publication (i.e. on redcross.tl) -or-
 * 3) Send an email from an address associated with the website (i.e. xxxx@redcross.tl ) to the address shown at WP:IOWN, ideally using the email template at WP:CONSENT.
 * 4) You need to establish the notability of the organisation (see also Notability (organizations and companies)) - using WP:RELIABLE, independent sources of information. Some suitable references may be found by looking at the following Google Search results (I haven't checked them out myself, you'll need to do that!) - if they are suitable, read WP:CITE for how to cite the sources:
 * 5) Google Scholar search (4 hits as I type)
 * 6) Google Book search (2 hits as I type)
 * 7) Google News Search (6 hits as I type)
 * However, these sources would not appear to me to prove notability as Wikipedia defines notability. Noble is not the same as Notable.
 * As I said on the Help Desk, Wikipedia is not a directory of good cause, or for attracting more interest (which is in effect advertising).
 * If you have any other questions, just contact me --  Phantom Steve  ( Contact Me, My Contribs ) 11:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok Phantom Steve,

I hope you feel proud for upholding your values. I was making no claim at nobility, but I think I might point out that considering less than 5% of Timor-Leste's population owns a computer, any web-based attempt to ascertain whether it's notable was doomed from the start. As to the issue of advertising, I don't think your accusations are quite appropriate. Indeed it's a bit ironic to deliberately make things difficult for a volunteer in a humanitarian organisation for the sake of 'ethics'. A page exists for the American Red Cross, yet at present I'd say CVTL is making a proportionally greater contribution to the nation it's based in - that's by no means an attempt to talk ARC down, it's just that considering 10 years ago 90% of infrastructure was destroyed here, we have a lot more to do. So if you look at this contextually (i.e. within the context of East Timor - a small, poor, largely illiterate nation), I would say we are at least slightly noteworthy. But that's probably just because I'm big-noting myself, though, isn't it? I'm sure that other articles on NGOs were written by individuals with a significant interest in them, and if that interest was there, surely it would be enough to warrant participation within that organisation. Do those conflicts of interest offend you, too? There's no point in me trying to fight the wikipedia administration's bureaucratic and negative attitude, though it surprises and disappoints me. I just want you to remember that regardless of your ethical justification, you've deliberately prevented a struggling humanitarian organisation in Asia's poorest country from receiving attention. Attention leads to donations, and this is one of the few places left in the world where $10 can literally save a life. But I admire your ethical steadfastness.

Henrycornwell (talk) 01:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I understand your anger, but the criteria for inclusion on Wikipedia are the same for all organisations. It is not our job to say "Oh well, this one can't get much attention in the outside world, let's give them an article" - that is not Wikipedia's job.
 * I should also point out that I did nominate the article for deletion, and did not delete it - and in fact, I had no say in the matter. Only the deleting admin made the decision. If they had thought that the organisation was notable enough for inclusion, they would not have deleted it. But I had nothing to do with that - my thoughts on the Help Desk and on this page would not have been read when deciding the fate of the article.
 * I agree that within East Timor your organisation may well be notable - but this is not theEast Timor Wikipedia, it is the English-language wikipedia, which has to think about notability on a wider scale - as it has a wider audience (which of course you know, which is why you sought to exploit that market).
 * I appreciate that information about the organisation would be hard to come by - but the policies and guidelines for Wikipedia do not say "If an organisation is in a country with a poor infrastructure, with very few computers or other sources of information, then please ignore all the guidelines and let them have an article because it is a nice and good thing to do".
 * If I sound annoyed, then that is because I am. I have not deliberately prevented a struggling humanitarian organisation in Asia's poorest country from receiving attention. I am treating it the same as any organisation in the world - if there is no evidence of notability, then it does not meet the criteria for inclusion in the English Wikipedia - how DARE you try to make me feel guilty! You are the one who is cynically exploiting an access point to what would be the Rich Western Nations. If the ethics you are showing are typical of your organisation, then I would not want to donate money to it - which is why I am assuming that your rant above is just out of anger and frustration.
 * Now, if you are still reading this - some advice, which you can take or leave as you wish:


 * 1) Look at other wikis - which may have less stringent criteria for inclusion. Articles on Wikipedia which may lead you to suitable ones are:
 * 2) List of wikis
 * 3) List of Wikipedias - there are 265 other Wikipedias, so some of those may be more suitable - and less stringent in the inclusion criteria
 * 4) As you at least have internet access, unlike 95% of the rest of the population of East Timor - try contacting different news organisations - perhaps they would do a story on your organisation (e.g. The New York Times, The London Times, etc etc) - see Newspapers for links to some of their articles which will give you links to their websites if you can't find them
 * 5) Contact some of the larger members of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, especially in the 'Rich' West, or in the more wealthy states of the Arab world. Let them help you to get publicity - perhaps they can do a charity donation collection in the 'Rich' countries.
 * 6) Contact some of the Western charities working in East Timor. I don't know which ones are there, but the CVTL presumably would have contacts - perhaps they can help?
 * 7) Contact the three foreign banks who have a branch in Dili: Australia's ANZ, Portugal's Banco Nacional Ultramarino, and Indonesia's Bank Mandiri - perhaps they can help with a charitable donation - maybe suggest that they donate to making commercials that could be played in richer countries.
 * Those are just some ideas off the top of my head.


 * I think you misunderstood something else about Wikipedia - just having a page does not guarantee that anyone will look at it. If the article had been kept, how many people would have seen it? Unless they knew what they were looking for, they would be highly unlikely to find it. Wikipedia do not advertise any articles - the articles featured on the main page are all chosen as examples of very good articles - with a lot of information about the subject, using lots of reliable sources. I do not think that the article you created would have got to the "Good Article" status, let alone "Featured Article" status - so it would never have got onto the front page. Overall, you need to think of non-wikipedia ideas for drawing attention to your organisation. As I often say on discussions about whether articles should be deleted or not, noble is not the same as notable.


 * I wish you and the CVTL every success, and I am sorry that Wikipedia cannot be used for the purpose for which you wanted it to be used. --  Phantom Steve  ( Contact Me, My Contribs ) 03:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Phantom Steve. Obviously you know your own conscience, but I would have thought that if it were clean you wouldn't be angry. Thanks for your advice on running an NGO, it was much needed and appreciated. I'll inform the Secretary General.

Conflict of interest
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