User talk:Here2fixCategorizations

Categories
When you create a category oplease make sure that it isn't an orphan - categories must be categorized. Also, I recall that actress categories were previously merged with actor categories. Don't be surprised if their merged back again. -Will Beback 19:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sry, I will do my best to make sure that everything is done correctly. When I made separate actress categories I would make sure I that I only do it for categories that would not risk creating an orphan or a page with a few names. If there are any you are thinking about specifically please let me know. Thanks for the heads up on the actress categories. It just bothered me for a long time and I thought that it was just started incorrectly and people didn’t want to start a massive undertaking. I will hold off on that category for now but personally I think it is more effective because having a huge list of actors and actresses together is overwhelming and a bit disorganized. If the admins decide to keep it this time, we can put a template at the top of the existing actors page to direct people to give actresses their separate category to expedite the process.

Here2fixCategorizations 19:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Please be very careful before engaging in mass-recategorizations. It is not a task well-suited for beginners. In general, we do not have separate ceategories for males and females, and there is no clear reason to make an exception for thespians. -Will Beback 21:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah I should have asked beforehand at wikipump but I simply didn't know the procedure. I have asked now and we are discussing it although I feel that the categorization is beneficial and helps organize huge lists. Thanks again for the heads up.

Here2fixCategorizations 22:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think the community agrees with you. -Will Beback 04:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

BE CAREFUL!
Please put Category:Naturalized English citizens of the United States and all other new categories into proper supercategpries ASAP.

Please always do this BEFORE modifying any articles. You are destroying search structure provided by categories. `'mikka (t) 20:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sry I am just kind of new. I am aware of that I know very well which categories I have been doing and I will not destroy the search capabilities. I would like to add a template at the end just like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swedish_Americans

That will list every nationationality that has been naturalized. Specifically I would like it to say:

Naturalized citizens of the United States by nationality:

And then list all of the nationalities so people can find what group they find accommodating.

You wouldn't happen to know how to do that template by any chance would you? I also responded to you on your talk page.

Thanks!

Here2fixCategorizations 20:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You have already destroyed search, because your categories such as Category:Naturalized English citizens of the United States is not included into other categories.


 * If you don't know well how things work, do not do changes in hundreds of articles.


 * If you are new to this:


 * When undertaking a major project, such as your recategorization, always discuss this with other wikipedians. For example, you placed Joseph Brodsky into the category:Naturalized Russian citizens of the United States. He is not Russian, he is Jewish. Any categories related to nationalities are sensitive and often lead to heated discussions. If you don't know where to ask the question, please start from Village pump. `'mikka (t) 20:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I just responded to you and it said I had an edit conflict and I lost my response. Oh well. :( Sorry about not asking I just didn't know where to ask. I initially started a policy to list Jews separately and have a category called "Naturalized Jewish citizens of the United States." However this was inconsistent with the policy I was applying to others and I started to list people accordingly to their country of naturalizion. Then gaining more experience I changed this policy and found that it is just better to list more categories that apply. For instance if someone is a Canadian Jew I would list two categories:

List of Naturalized Canadian citizens of the United States (This is their nationality they have been naturalized from)

and then:

List of Naturalized Jewish citizens of the United States (Their ethnicity)

I think this will prevent conflict as they are both correct and help people find specifically what is of interest to them. I have followed this policy for others as well. As for nationality editing I am only following what is listed on their wikipage so I didnt think it was a problem. Sry for not asking at wikipump I simply didn't know and I will ask them right now. I am very aware of destroying the search function and that is why I have listed all of the nationalities that I have made categories for down. It is only temporary while I am working on it and it should be done soon with all nationalities listed in one place instead of having just one big list.

Also would you happen to know how to do a template exactly like the ethnicity American one? The one that I would like to follow will be exactly the same except will say:

List of Naturalized Citizens of the United States by nationality:

and then list every nationality that has a category. Do you know how I can do it or get someone who can?

Thanks,

Here2fixCategorizations 20:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Slow down, none of these sub-categories read correctly, they should be Naturalized Citizens of the United States from XXX putting the former nationality where you have is very confusing. This is the sort of thing you should get consensus on the talk page of the main category first before doing so much work and then creating a great deal of work to change it all. Doc &#9836; talk 02:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think it is confusing especially because the body of the article usually explains the persons nationality and ethnic backround in great detail. If it needs to be changed can an administrator rename the category? I didn't know that I could reach a consensus but I have learned. Let me know on how to proceed.

Here2fixCategorizations 03:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You need to ask an admin. for help. All of the categories you have created are causing problems with searches (the wording is not clear).  The wording may be clear to you, but to most of us, it is incredibly unclear.  You should never undertake such a large task without first inquiring with other editors on an article's talk page.  Please re-name all of your categories.  Follow the instruction in the category section of the AfD area. 03:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Until you have the necessary changes made, please do not continue adding those categories as they have proven to be troublesome to many. Please first list them for re-naming. 03:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * But is it really necessary to rename the categories? The final product should look like this template:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swedish_Americans

It will be the same template but it will say "Naturalized Citizens of the United States" and then give direct links to naturalized nationality. So I dont see how it will matter in the end. How is it messing up the searches? Would it be ok if I did this at the top: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Naturalized_Swiss_citizens_of_the_United_States

? Let me know if it is ok or if I should rename the categories or get an admin to do it.

03:52, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

PS- Let me provide an example. I am certain that a wikipedia user does not just think "I am going to look at naturalized citizens of the united states". Regular wikipedia users probably have no clue that it is even a category or what a category is. I believe that most people are directed to this page from the category listing on the person they are viewing. I will give an example here: Elaine Chao

I put naturalized Chinese citizen for her in categories. The vast majority of articles where I add a categorization thoroughly explains the persons nationality and ethnic backround. Its pretty obvious and easy to figure out that they were naturalized citizens of the United States from whatever country. I dont understand how it can be confusing. I will ask an admin to rename the categories though.

Here2fixCategorizations 04:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Blocked
Account blocked for 24h for creating mess and not listening to what other people say, to prevent further increasing of the mess. `'mikka (t) 04:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Why would you block me? I have been listening to what other people say. For one several people told me to reach a consensus for my changes to "Actresses and actors" and then I did and am discussing it at wikipump and I have stopped editing those categories until we reach a consensus.

As for the Naturalizations lists, I followed what you directed of me. You told me to make a separate category for Jews and I did and then you ban me? We were discussing the Jewish list on wikipump and how to proceed. Nobody has told me that it wasnt ok to do the naturalization lists. I also was going to ask whether or not to list Jews after admins decided how they should be listed either

A: Ethnically

or

B: From their country of naturalization

or

C: Both

I was fully prepared to go back and correct my work and do what the admins directed of me. I was just doing the Jewish lists for current categorization and I will change it to whatever I am told to once the admins make their decision.

Secondly ofcourse it is a mess because I am not finished. If I am going to restore a car to make it look brand new I have to take it apart first and it obviously will look like a mess temporarily. Michael told me to stopped editing on the naturalization pages 5 minutes ago and I have not editing them since and we were discussing it on the talk page. Gosh have you ever heard of not jumping the gun? I just had some questions and I told him that I was going to request to rename the pages right now. There is also no need to delete the categories as I can change it to what is directed of me.

Here2fixCategorizations 04:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Your user page is not a proper place to discuss such broad things. Your user page is for discussing things that are related to you.


 * I have already told you: if you don't know where to start, go to village pump and don't do what you are doing now. Several people told you that you are creating mess, yet you persist in making more useless work for other people.


 * I did not tell you to create a categpry for Jews. Please learn to understand what exactly other people say, or you will always be in trouble.


 * I am unblocking you now, but do not touch any issues related to ethnicity on massive scale until you fully understand the topic and take part in a couple of heated battles about some persons' ethnicity. `'mikka (t) 04:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * They told me that I was making a mess for actors and actress categorizations and directed to me to stop editing and ask at wikipump; which I did. Nobody objected for the Naturalization lists except for you who said that you wanted me to categorize all the lists that I was making which I did, and then I felt that you objected that I was saying Polish Jews, Russian Jews etc where naturalized from Poland and Russia etc which I explained and to you and changed. You didnt respond so I thought everything was ok. I also said that I will do whatever I am told from the mods and rename the categories manually if necessary and establish a policy on how to name Jews.

I know the difference between Russian Jews and Russians, but given that this can be a sensitive topic I was being a little more politically correct on the matter and was waiting to see whether or not the category will not be deleted before I ask on how to proceed and what policy I should follow.

Thanks for the unblock but again I am not here to cause problems. If you can how do I ask moderators to specifically rename the categories? Is it necesssary to rename the categories (I was just explaining to Michael what I was doing and if it was necessary I was not objecting to him I merely had a few questions) I will ask at wikipump right now.

Here2fixCategorizations 04:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I concur with Mikkalai. If your intent here, as indicated by your handle, is to "fix categorizations", then please learn about the standards and norms of categorizations before making massive changes. -Will Beback 04:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sry Mr. Beback,

I was just new and didn't understand the procedure and thought that it would be ok if I just went ahead and did the hard work and people would be happy. I will be sure to ask at wikipump right now on how to procede.

Here2fixCategorizations 04:52, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem with categories is that you cannot rename them like an article. You have to edit each and every article you edited. Again PLEASE DON'T introduce some other replacement. Go and discuss with other people how to do it better.

Also, please don't expect an immediate response because people work here in their spare hours and don't sit all day long to see what you say. You must wait at least 1-2 days. You may want to start the discussion in Category talk:Naturalized citizens of the United States and link to this page from several common discussion places, to attract more people. `'mikka (t) 04:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I will follow your request and go and discuss this at the category talk for Naturalized citizens of the United States. Is it also ok if I ask how to rename the categories to what is accommodating to the wikipedia community at technical questions and proposals at wikipump as well? I will not do any further work on these pages until a consensus is reached. I thought that admins could rename categories, but if they cant I will manually redo the work and change the category name to "Naturalized Citizens of the United States from XXX" as was requested from a few people. That is if I am requested to do so and given the green light. I am also still blocked. :(

Here2fixCategorizations 05:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

NO you dont do any futher renaming into new categories until agreed. You are increasing the load on wikipedia computing resources. They are vast, but not infinite.

Once, again, first of all we must agree on proper names of categories, because there is no simple wasy of renaming categories. I know some people use wikibots to do this, but I don't know how. You may want to look into Categories for deletion to find out who does automatical renaming of categoroies and ask them how to do this. `'mikka (t) 04:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

What is more, from discussion in this page I see you have problems with understanding what is written. I guess that is why you categorized several people wrongly. For example who told you that Tatiana Zdrok is Russian? You cannot do a large job in unfamiliar areas in a hurry. I sugegst you to stick to 1-2 nationalities you know well, e.g, your own. `'mikka (t) 05:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I already said that I will not do any further editing on this topic until a consensus is reached on the wikipump page. I will not touch another page relating to this topic unless I am authorized by a group of administrators. As for Tatiana Zdrok I was merely following what her page said and her page says she is Russian. I didn't notice that she was Ukrainian but I was going to thoroughly review Russians and Ukrianans when I was done.

Here2fixCategorizations 05:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You misunderstood me. You don't need an approval of a group of admins: you need to seek a discussion with several regular editors who are interested in dealing with the issues of ethnicity or nationality. You will be surprized to learn that quite a few nationalities have issues unknown to you (or ignored by you), to name Russian, Jewich, Chinese, Belarussian for a few examples. Yet another issue is to have an exact knowledge of some person's nationality or citizenship or ethnicity. Very easily there may be, say, a "French actor" in wikipedia who is a citizen of Algeria.

So once more, please try to edit only things you know well.

Please also notice that I never said that your idea is wrong. THe only thing it must be discussed by several people with different background.

Finally, in wikipedia, admins do not have any particular rights as to the content of the wikipedia. Admins have 2-3 powerful functions primarily for general maintenance and dealing with various violations. In anything else, admin's opinon is basically the same as yours. I tried to block you not as a punishment but to prevent you from unknowingly doing more useless work. `'mikka (t) 17:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I already said that I will not touch anything until we reach a consensus on the appropriate wikipump pages. I don't know what else you want me to say. It's not like I can edit anyways anymore.

Here2fixCategorizations 03:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion
In regard to reaching consensus or discussing changes, if you're proposing something related to a particular topic, you should probably find a discussion among people interested in that area of WP. For example, changes in the "actor/actress" categories should be discussed over at the Films WikiProject, or at least on the talk page of the category. Just a suggestion. &hearts; Her Pegship &hearts; 15:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
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