User talk:Hesperian/Archive 16


 * The following text is preserved as an archive of discussions at User talk:Hesperian. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on User talk:Hesperian. No further edits should be made to this page.

Someone is creating re-directs to Jimmy Wales
Yes, I realised that after a closer look. It appears to be fixed now. -- Longhair\talk 03:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Murder vs Killed
I was upgrading killed to murder as I believe it is the correct term for this human on human action. You backed Fred downgrading John Forrest by writing A. "Murder is a legal term", and B. He was "killed in Action". I followed your subsequent back and forth with Adam and decided to correct all murders not legally prosecuted as KIA, as per your guidelines. Your cry of Racism is against Wikipedias "assume good faith" policy and fairly extraordinary as you seem to presume "my" racial makeup. Prester John 05:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Because he was Murdered. Prester John 05:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I am willing to find a solution to all sides here. I will concede that John Forrest was "killed" as if he was involved in a war, like you stated. If you agree that ALL participants of said war were "killed" and not "murdered". You must concede that adjusting these terms is not racist, and I demand an apology for the snide Racial remark now defacing my talkpage. Prester John 05:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok I'll admit while getting lost in the minutae of "murder" and "killing" I lost track of the context of the particular article you and I were dealing with. I edited a lot of articles in relation to this subject and am involved in a pseudo edit war with Fred.e. Since you have declared this is wasting your time, I will just declare my position. I am willing to let "those men" be "killed" and not "murdered" under article of war (like you descirbed) if it is applied to all combatants of said war. This must be applied evenly.

Hesperian your lack of acknowledgement in regard to your personal slur against me is very un-administrator like, and really should be grounds for your removal from that post.Prester John 06:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Your right it's not you. Other users wikistalked my edits after you and Adam reached a consensus I agreed with. I reverted the John Forrest to keep things even.

Still no apology from you concerning the snide charge of Racism. Prester John 06:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It was attempt to make the encyclopedia even handed. There is no doubt in my mind you reverted a perfectly valid point (that it was murder) and your dedication to the truth is IMO flawed. Given your behaviour I wasn't really expecting an apology, it says more about your personal constitution than it does about mine.Prester John 18:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

blahblah
Good to see your new map - have been tagging electoral districts close to where it represents - what a mine of unchecked articles - bit like jakarta subdistricts! SatuSuro 11:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC) doh - could you please look at the edits on alan bond - i think the new user might need checking.... SatuSuro 11:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah - I like whatyou did for freo - good stuff! One thing I found through most electoral districts - lack of an either bolded or linked qualifier in the first lines of the arts that they were actually in western australia - my beef with usa localities with no sign of usa in the first three lines when i was doing my very big random article searches in 2005 or so... I suppose this in fact is the same diff i had with adam bless his briskness - over the indonesian politicians articles - I had wanted both spellings in first line - he subjugated the alternate spelling down about 8 or 9 lines...  I keep thinking that qualifiers/refrence points for the unitiated need to be as close as poss to the first word...  anyways we gotta move on... SatuSuro 11:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh well that makes sense of everything - just one letter from the archetypal american destroyer, and two away from the feared australian merino - bit like the displacement of a few key items on a dna signature to make all the difference... SatuSuro 12:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh well great australian icons are mere hairbreadths away from canadian groups of all colours - this has happened before - SatuSuro 12:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Article names
Valley of the giants!? My favorite eg is Tingle.

original phrase removed
Hi I noticed that you removed some of my original phrases on AFD article nomination. I was wondering if you can direct me to the standards for this so i know what is/isn't acceptable, thanks.--Dacium 21:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Heya
Could I ask why Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia is failing was just deleted? Are you going to restore/fix this? - Ta bu shi da yu 00:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that. I had already restored it before I received this message.
 * CyberAnth copy-pasted the essay and its talk page to Worldtraveller's user space. Copy-paste moves are a violation of the GFDL. I speedily deleted the copies, and started to compose a message to CyberAnth, but before I had saved it, he reposted a copy of the essay, and pasted a redirect at the userspace talk page. I redeleted the copy-paste essay, and thought I was re-deleting a copy-paste talk page, having not noticed I had been redirected the second time. Gosh, that sounds complicated - just take my word for it: it was an honest mistake. Hesperian 00:11, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No probs, I figured that's what it was. Only asking, not criticising :-) Ta bu shi da yu 11:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

VITAL
Go for it change it - dont wait for the once a weekers to read the talk -put it in - we need earthquakes in western australia for a start! SatuSuro 01:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Dont even let me say a word about the publisher of the 100 - offline only so i dont poison your talk page beyond what lies above... :)   I see things/events like the earthquakes more important than at least 30 of those people in that list... they can be in the creamtorium tommorrow and get a write up in the daily - but the earthquakes can really move the earth for all of us...  :) SatuSuro 01:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

western tip
The western edge has the boranup sand patch and karri stand - despite m c davies ( i am trying to remember whether its been cited the best stand of 100 year regeneration karri or not - i know my old school mate cliff winfield did a great piccie for forests or calm about 20 years ago - there is a great stand there - probably worth an indicator  word or two of the actual boundary  as  it lying south of margaret river - the river - for a reference poiunt but maybe i havent read it carefully enough .. typical of me... :) SatuSuro 02:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Email
Oh dear. Anyway its been dealt with by the looks. &mdash;Moondyne 05:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

re oz noticeboard
please do not 'silently' edit other users talk &rArr; bsnowball  13:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The future of WP:AUS
In the past you've expressed some interest in WP:1.0 assessments and how they function across projects with many sub-projects such as WikiProject Australia. Would you like to help with planning the road ahead for WP:AUS? I've created a page where planning can take place at WikiProject Australia/Future so we can finalise a plan that's adaptable to all. -- Longhair\talk 21:31, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Botany
I half expected to see you here. She gave a terrific lecture and I bought her book which is full of juicy biographical stuff. &mdash;Moondyne 16:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well that's very cryptic. &mdash;Moondyne 04:27, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No, I'm sorry. The above reply possibly sounded a bit rude but it wasn't meant to be.  I did get the drift that you had read it which I must admit took me a bit by surprise as I assumed in my normal ignorant way that if I hadn't previously heard of the book then no-one had.  Any way, I've got it and will try to read it and will discuss once that's done.  I went to the talk on a whim after hearing Sabrina Hahn gushing over her on 720 on Saturday morning.  I had a drop off and pick up engagement nearby and had to kill a couple of hours, so everything just fell into place. &mdash;Moondyne 11:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Its all good and thanks. &mdash;Moondyne 12:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

No worries :)
Thanks :) I am very appreciative of the work you have put in, and I'd rather we get a quality bit of the encyclopaedia written by someone who knows what they're doing. I was hoping to get it submitted for FAC today, but it will be tomorrow as I want to do a graph of the federal results similar to the state one I put in last night, and decide what images I want in. Goes without saying that if you (or anyone reading this) can see anything obvious sticking out as an issue, either let me know or have a go at fixing it. Orderinchaos78 08:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Monday morning itis
Could you please (if moondyne hasnt) give a once over of my rose byrne issue? ta SatuSuro 22:29, 18 February 2007 (UTC) Thanks - I get tired of finding advert bios - I think I should go back to random article for therapy :) SatuSuro 00:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Outback highways
being on the acoftf for road transport - i have noticed a very wide range of poor info re 'outback conditions' for the poor misguided who drive into the wild far off places and are never seen again. I was thinking either an art (and then 'see also' every time i find another misguided under info art) - or a template - any ideas?
 * I cannot make templates - but Warning - this article is about travelling in outback australia - please note that conditions require procedures on the part of supplies and vehicles before venturing into the area defined by this article - what do you think? SatuSuro 00:31, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks - I think i have a handle on this - an article on those lost/died/disappeared - and see also or links - gets around all of that... cheers SatuSuro 01:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Thomas Hill Dixon wikify request revision
I am going to add another wikify request to this page for the following reasons: I am flagging this page per the policies contained at WP:WIKI on when it is appropriate to mark an article as such. Though I don't think the infobox is absolutely crucial, I think that subject headings throughout the article would improve its quality immensely. - HammerHeadHuman 00:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * There are no subject headings in the article
 * There is no relevant infobox

Alan Bond and User:Csdm
I fully concur. &mdash;Moondyne 02:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC) Same here - but annoying - yet another 'welcomed' by satusuro bites the dust...:) SatuSuro 02:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. That would have to be the most blatant puff piece in the history of the universe. How can you write an encyclopaedia article about Bondy and fail to mention that he was convicted of fraud and sent to jail after presiding over the biggest corporate collapse in Australian history?! Absolutely astonishing. Hesperian 03:06, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It depends who's paying you. &mdash;Moondyne 03:08, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * If you're paying for good advice, you should get good advice. And good advice in this case is "Alan, people aren't going to forget that they had to pay a W.A. Inc levy on their car rego renewals for ten years to save their state following Bond Corp down the toilet. So if you want to spruce up your image, we should run a 'Bondy has changed' angle, not a 'Lets pretend it never happened' angle." Hesperian 03:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Lots of people have limited memories and we're now talking about a whole generation having elapsed since then. I was discussing him the other day with my 18yo son and a couple of his mates and they had no idea of the scandal or WA Inc etc.  - all they knew about was the America's Cup.  I suspect that is a reflection of the education system and the fact they don't/won't read newspapers and the appalling upbringing they've had to suffer from their parents. &mdash;Moondyne 03:23, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * (sits on talk page, types different responses, deletes them, thinks of making allusions to educationally enforced cultural amnesia - brian burke, allan bond, peter holland, susanah carr and a few others, nah, back to work or was that sleep, sigh)  SatuSuro 05:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Try for the revenge of godzilla at allans place right now 212.159.121.190 :) SatuSuro 13:17, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Maintained template
I've never been a fan of this template. I first saw it again after some time at Talk:Dannii Minogue last night. It raises some serious issues relating to WP:OWN IMHO, and the sooner the template is dead and buried, the better. My friend from QLD? I haven't seen him editing of late, maybe my smooth but forceful suggestions took effect and off he's gone to a new hobby :) -- Longhair\talk 04:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Seems to imply some form of WP:OWN even though it expressly denies it. Also suggests that if something was to happen that disagrees with that person's expertise (whether real or imagined), that the latter rather than consensus would prevail. Just my thoughts... Orderinchaos78 09:25, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Images
Finally got myself into gear and uploaded some pics. The first two I'm looking to identify (both were in trees - the second one is that one with the windy bean-like seeds I mentioned previously), the third one was just a nice shot and the fourth and fifth I wasn't sure if you could use in the Banksia project and, if so, what on earth I'd upload them as :) Orderinchaos78 13:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Cool, thanks :) I might try for a better quality shot at the fifth, it looks a bit fuzzy (it's on my way to somewhere else so not a difficult one to get). Orderinchaos78 02:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Two
Wandering through categories is such fun, especially when finding such delightful fraudulent items as - Bomberphone -  and - Harvey Stanley Hyde Blackburn (I could be wrong, but...), just in case the others i let know of arent on when you are   SatuSuro 14:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC)  I have given warnings at bomberphone and the editors page - I am not sure whether seeking help from an admin is protocol compared to going through other processses? SatuSuro 23:45, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Could you please put the eucalyptus vandal out of its misery? If needs be? SatuSuro 23:28, 19 February 2007 (UTC) Looks like things have passed there -  SatuSuro 23:45, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Please have a good day - I really appreciate your efficiency! SatuSuro 00:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Somehow banksia never drew me in - I think I am more a hakea and eucalypt person (I am sure I have said that before somewhere... ) SatuSuro 01:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Speedy
3rd opinion, its identical to that Nullabor thingie a month or so ago which survived AfD Gnangarra 00:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

New Editor
Hey this new editor is doing a lot of work to Mount Barker, Western Australia, as he's(assumed by username User talk:AndrewD MBarker) a resident of the town I took the liberty to ask if he's available to take photos of varous species from the Banksia Farm Gnangarra 04:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Epica
Will do tonight back around witching Gnangarra 09:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * rephrase 3 for 3 on the EL's maybe get someone who wouldnt have previously used them aka OIC or Moondyne Gnangarra 09:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think there is a problem. Cheers. &mdash;Moondyne 00:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 8, Thiele: goes to a page which lists publications for sale
 * 9, Lamont, et al: a 20 line extract with a link to the full text PDF (1,342 KB), which then asks for subscription details
 * 10, Craig and Coates: Calm link returns '404 Error - Page Not Found on NatureBase'. The worldcat.org link returns: 'The page you tried was not found. You may have used an outdated link or may have typed the address (URL) incorrectly.'
 * 11, Wooler and Wooler: same as #8 above
 * 12, McCredie et al: same as #8 above
 * No problem. &mdash;Moondyne 01:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

CALM -> Naturebase
moved to WP:WA &mdash;Moondyne 01:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC) User talk:202.72.158.206 at darling scarp please exterminate i gotta go SatuSuro 02:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Hehe
Thanks for that. I was going to say much the same thing :) Orderinchaos78 11:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Smbarnzy
This Wikipedian has vandalised several pages relating to his school's (Aquinas College, Perth) enemy school (Guildford Grammar School, GGS Chapel) in the PSA competition. He is just making a point and on his userpage he states that he has made positive contributions to these articles. Positive meaning unwarranted blanking and redirects? Please block. Auroranorth 12:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Conservation/Environment
Having just tagged for WP Aust the category of Environment of Australia - and done a cursory check of the conservation and the environment catgories - I withdraw my earlier claims for proper definitions to make  distinctions between the two - as I honestly couldnt be bothered trying to argue with what appears to be set into category stone. I will watch with interest to see what extent editors and others place articles into which of the two category trees. btw we had brilliant fog phenomenon on the edge of the scarp this am - real movie studio effects persons dream SatuSuro 23:13, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * WHats with the 'supercat'? Is there something that I am misunderstanding there? SatuSuro 23:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * So if I get it right - where an article is in a category that is already a sub category - there is no real practical use for the article to be placed in another category - unless it is totally unrelated? SatuSuro 23:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Looks like an overambitious, possibly POV motivated, mess that other Aus editors are going to have to clean up. --Peta 00:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The chaos created by one well intentioned editor is amazing - I have left a message with comments - please -either of you feel free to modify if I have been off the main principles required - also thanks hesp for the old id cleanup- cheers SatuSuro 00:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC) I have clogged your gmail in box today - maybe worth reading maybe notSatuSuro 11:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Conservationist is supposedly a subcat of envirnomentalist which makes some sense; it a vaguely useful distinction. The issue with our new editor is that they're setting up some giant undefined project, s/he is unfamiliar with how things work (the fact that things in the environment shouldn't be in the cat Environment of Australia for starters) and hasn't asked anyone for advice; and is peddling some simplistic "green" agenda.--Peta 00:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

trying to suss out issue
I think this is the problem: -  I would argue with almost every point in this particular dialogue which I have lifted from the category proposal page (!)


 * 1.9 Cat:Australian environment stubs :
 * I have recently added an Environment section to the Australia page Australia#Environment and there is a Category:Environment of Australia.
 * The stub-Australia and stub-environment are too general to assist in providing Australian environmentalists with an easy way to identify articles to work on. The creation of this stub would assist in providing easy identification of Australian environment :stubs among Australian environmentalists, promoting the dramatic improvement of this area of Wikipedia.
 * Pages would include, eg:
 * Environment of Australia
 * Wind power in Australia
 * Solar power in Australia
 * dinghy 02:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No idea if there are 60 stubs that this would use, but I have corrected the proposed template name to match the naming guidelines. Caerwine Caer’s whines 03:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Stubsense shows massive amount of possible false positives (2000+) starting from Cat:Environment of Australia but only 2 possible stubs that don't have more specific stub template already. Both are environmentalists (5 potentials including ones with other stubs than ). Monni 14:52, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

A search in Wikipedia of: environment AND Australia shows 5895 results. I have no doubt based on this and the stub sense results above that there are 60 stub pages in this proposed Australia-environment-stub. I would expect that the 2000+ possible false positives are also possible true positives, but I am no expert on Stubsense. 47 of 100 and 678 out of 1000 pages scanned were categorised stubs of some description, but who knows how many are uncategorised stubs? dinghy 20:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC) I guess only way to really know is to compile list that contain atleast 60 possible candidates and how this stub is better than the current stubs already in those articles. I do understand that I didn't take account possible subcategories of Environment, but that would have taken quite a while and I didn't have that time back then. Monni 21:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Biggest problem I see is that we create one stub type that will get oversized really fast and then have to wait again for sub-stub to be accepted... I see atleast and its children having lots of stubs under Cat:Environment of Australia. Monni 21:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

My comment - When there was already Conservation in Australia - rocks in the head! - or was there something in my breakfast I didnt notice? I think I'll go find my chainsaw and cut up some firewood lest I stay on the keyboard too long this am...

Sorry about clogging your talk page again! SatuSuro 00:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The thing is - did they go to the australian project talk page or other forum apart from this obscure one in a part of the universe in which the average australian editor does not inhabit? I really think a long seriously thought out post on the australian project noticeboard needs to be done to get this out for all to seeSatuSuro 00:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

What links here for a URL
Hi Hesperian, I was wondering if you know if there's a way to find all pages that link a specific URL? I've found still works but is out of date, and should be. This has got to be the dumbest file organisation system I have ever seen!! I did TEE Computing last year and we covered just this sort of situation. Anyway I'd like to know how to do it so I can do it again if I find any others, thanks :) DanielT5 07:58, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Aquinas College, Perth
Hello, ive started a peer-review for AC, Perth and i think you are one of the best editors around so i was wondering if you could give your thoughts on the article - Peer review/Aquinas College, Perth/archive4 - many thanks Smbarnzy 10:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Gday maytey, ive beaten you to the punch - look at reference 7, and i do believe it was you (maybe mistaken) who suggested the one we have at 8 ;) Smbarnzy 10:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * There is another book on the school in our library - ill try get a hold of it in the coming days Smbarnzy 10:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, i think its the same book ;) just got an email from Prof. Massam myself -

Dear Steven,

Thanks for your enquiry. My understanding is that distribution was in the hands of the school. So, your best bet is likely to be the Development Officer, Aquinas College, Manning Road, Manning, WA.

I hope this helps, Katharine Massam Smbarnzy 10:58, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't worry man, im just glad your helping me out, even though im a bit of a prickly editor =) you're a champ Smbarnzy 11:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Id like cleanup? but im not too bothered either way - choose as you please :) Smbarnzy 11:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

MIA
Saw your comments on Suro's page re our beloved admin. It seems like self-exile, right? Oh dear. Merbabu 12:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC) 'planation from the nation by gmation - is you'll both getta degmail in a secondortwo SatuSuro 14:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Noted
Thanks hesp. Fear not. After reading the admin noticeboard I arrived at the same conclusion. My wound seems insignificant, relatively. On another matter; I will get back to you regarding FAC reply when I have thought some more about it. Is there a term for the precision of your subgenus etc.? I would have given my support vote already except for concern that: Regards, 'anon'
 * 1) I brought my disrepute to it.
 * 2) It made it seem like a circle jerk.

Banksia photos
glad you like 'em. Got interrupted last night...more around somehwere....Cas Liber 18:59, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Just found
Western Australia. Dept. of Agriculture. Title	 Agricultural regions of Western Australia : a regional classification of the agricultural areas of the South West of the State according to physiography, climate and soils / prepared by the Department of Agriculture. Published	 [Perth] : The Dept., 1947. 3rd Fl, Battye Stack	 Q 338.109941 WES If i do find these - better to keep, send bunch later, gmail, here or elsewhere? SatuSuro 23:51, 22 February 2007 (UTC) Or better still if they fit - into the refs for the regions of wa art? SatuSuro 00:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Nah dont worry - I shouldnt have bothered - explain more some other time. its friday, sigh SatuSuro 00:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Not at all about to do the met regions on the region art - the issue about earlier regional attempts to me is similar to tracking down the earlier names of the govt depts and when they started and finished so jo public actually feel they are getting more than a bland bit of nothing in arts about such things - nah - I realise there is a time and place... the bloody easterly gully winds are bacck up here - i thinks its gonna be hot today SatuSuro 00:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

What the ...
Support, I support it as is! That you 'cross the floor' has only increased the respect I have for you as an editor. I also try to give my opinions based solely on the edit or article's merit. I'm busy and lazy at the moment but I will try to remember some of the things I wanted to say to you; Thanks again for helping with my continuing improvement(?) as an editor. Best regards - Fred 01:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * My comment regarding 3 banksia sp. becoming F/A was not a dig at you or the project. It is appropriate to continue building on your previous work and submitting them to the feature article process, IMO. It was a dig at other less notable articles that had become 'featured'.
 * The query regarding subgenus was sloppy, sorry for inefficiency in communication. This was in regard to the string of links " subgenus Banksia, section Banksia, series Cyrtostylis," in the lead. Is there a taxonomic term for this 'level of precision' in defining an organisms taxonomy.  Bear in mind my admitted ignorance of this stuff, for all I know this is common. The reason for asking was so I coud provide a suggestion (as you requested) for its mention in the lead, without the little 'river of blue' links. I am personally averse to these and I thought it was affecting the near perfect prose, IMHO. It is very well illustrated in "current treatment" though.
 * The process of feature article attribution attracts all sorts of editors who would wish to take shots at harder workers than themselves. My previous association with WP:WA might have given them a starting point for 'criticism', albeit a fallacious one. I thought I might spare you those timewasters and 'tyre kickers' by abstaining.
 * You ought to have a word to Gn. He seems too humble in avoiding credit for the excellent images in your article.
 * Me too, but how about stating that the classsification contains an infrageneric taxonomy and ... oh! A red link. Forgot I asked. I don't want to make more work for you.  -  Fred 03:12, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * ''The above text is preserved as an archive of discussions at User talk:Hesperian. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on User talk:Hesperian. No further edits should be made to this page.