User talk:Hesperian/Archive 19


 * The following text is preserved as an archive of discussions at User talk:Hesperian. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on User talk:Hesperian. No further edits should be made to this page.

There
Is something about archiving and blanked talk pages... the clean look - the unpolluted... Would you have the message (i think it was a gmail) re the possible ways to do the regionalisation issues in WA? I seemed to have mislaid my copy, dont seem to find it that easy/ it would be appreciated if you could repeat yourself. Hope its not too difficult! Otherwise - if its difficult for you - I'll keep digging in the myre ... SatuSuro 02:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you yes I replied and it is exactly what I was after, cheers SatuSuro 03:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * With that ip address and the convict teachers sro battye items - did you realise you had done the welcome on the user page and not the talk page? SatuSuro 07:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Spelling
Thanks :)--cj | talk 03:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

American?
"since it is full of articles about people notable for reasons other than being America", well, you're welcome to nominate it if you think so.  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  09:54, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, no problem :) I think the issue some people have with categories these days is that lists can be a lot more comprehensive. For instance, a List of Freemasons would include which chapter they're member of, whereas a category would not. That, and we really do seem to have excessive cats on some of our articles.  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  11:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Salter Point Campus
I think it might be time to close the AfD discussion now? Can i do it, i dont want to violate protocol, so im asking you to do it, many thanks SMBarnZy 11:19, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

WC first round
Hi Hesperian, I think you'll find that undefined have qualified; they cannot fall below second place. See also. Cmprince 23:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Canada being out
yeah you're right, i hang my head with Flintoff-esque shame Sinfony81 23:57, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Template
Very well done. Are you going to publish it? &mdash;Moondyne 06:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Can you make it default to calculate from today like Template:Age? &mdash;Moondyne 06:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Redirect
It doesnt look like that to me, it looks like Guettarda wanted to redirect his talk page, which he did, and that Jimbo wished to respect that which is why he put the message on the user page. We should make our suppositrionsd at least fitt he facts and not just our hypothesis. Finally Guettarda will get an orange message anyway if he chooses to come back. Why not write and ask him as he is email contactable. Cheers, SqueakBox 22:56, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Which is a bad thing in my opinion, SqueakBox 22:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Huh!
Yeah I did see that. Duck test? &mdash;Moondyne 11:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Please
Check my talk. Please watch the wee bairns...Unknown return day... SatuSuro 08:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

draughty
I have been doing a bit on biota and was wondering if you had some thoughts on, or examples of, articles for communities such as "Organic mound (tumulus) springs of the Swan Coastal Plain". It is a "threatened" community according to the reference I was using for Rottnest bee. When you have nothing to do, ta. - Fred 14:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Lake Bryde-East Lake Bryde answers a few other questions I had. The reference I mentioned gives a figure of 69 TECs: 21(CR), 17(EN), 28(VU) and 3(Bye-bye). I notice that the 12 communities described by their fauna have been mercifully truncated, such as 'Bundera Sinkhole'. These are mostly about subterranean business, the mound springs are where I was going to start. How about "Communities of tumulus springs (Organic mound springs of the Swan Coastal Plain)" as is given in the reference. It could be abbreviated in other article's text to 'mound spring communities'.


 * 1) Shall I start a czech list of all the commies? Or a listy article?
 * 2) Do they have other identifiers; the name of the reserves created, IUCN, a nearby pub?
 * 3) I'll see what I can find out meself, but I might need some guidance getting them nestled into the super-eco/bio-regionalization schemes. I will prepare my reply to AfDs and new page watchers ahead of putting them into article space.
 * Cheers, Fred 03:45, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Made a start: Plant assemblages of the Koolanooka System (Beard 1976): Allocasuarina campestris scrub over red loam on hill slopes; Shrubs and emergent mallees on shallow loam red over massive ironstone on steep rocky slopes; Eucalyptus ebbanoensis subsp. ebbanoensis mallee and Acacia sp. scrub with scattered Allocasuarina huegeliana over red loam and ironstone on the upper slopes and summits; Eucalyptus loxophleba woodland over scrub on the footslopes; and mixed Acacia sp. scrub on granite. But seriously, thanks. I will knock up some more proper drafts using the links you provided. Fred 05:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

just a quicky
thought that sounded pretty cool =), but on an almost serious note: i was wondering about getting a picture of the original building of CBC Perth -i have found a site that has it and i once heard someone  (possibly you) mention something along the lines of pictures that are like pre 55 are like no longer copyrighted or something along those lines? im not too sure, how can i get that image for the CBC article? Other Question - When doing alumni sections should i include the year the person graduated? LeBarn 14:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

New Username
Hey, this is Smbarnzy here! this is just a quick message to inform you of my change of username, i have decided (due to unforseen circumstances) to change accounts rather than usurp. All the best Twenty Years 06:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Just on that note - can you please block User: Every Me Every You and User: The Bitter End - my two other accounts? please dont block smbarnzy - i have made that a redirect to my current user Twenty Years 06:57, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Just to confirm (first time I've done an unblock!) - I unblocked just the IP address, then substed the unblock template on the talk page - is that all that is required? Orderinchaos78 12:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Dw man, no probs - it gave me time to think about what to edit :) Twenty Years 12:25, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: World Cup
Yeah, but someone (don't know who) hadn't understood that, so the article had replaced West Indies with D1 and Ireland with D2. See the version from 15 May: here D2 (West Indies) are playing in the first and third game. Sam Vimes | Address me 11:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Cheers. Good that someone is keeping an eye on it, anyway. :) Sam Vimes | Address me 12:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: Thanks
Meatball:DefendEachOther :-)--cj | talk 03:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Right on. Hesperian 03:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Cant have respectible editors people being spoken to like that Gnangarra 03:36, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that revert Hesperian. Quite a song and dance routine hey :) -- Longhair\talk 08:37, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Coat of arms
Hi Hesperian - thanks for the welcome, and comment on the Coat of arms, I'll check the Black Swan page Thungarra 08:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)Thungarra

I have checked the Black Swan page - not sure about transfering stuff there (I guess you mean the 'Black Swan in Westralian literature' sub-section?). The Black Swan page is about the bird, as an animal, whereas my stuff is about the bird, as a symbol. I had developed this material within the bigger article on the WA coat of arms, which is about a symbol of WA rather than the natural history or fauna of the State. However, I'd be interested in your thoughts Thungarra 09:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)Thungarra

Hesperian, I had a look at the Emu page, and see what you mean. I am doing a little bit of research now, and will add a section to Black Swan on cultural references on an Australia-wide basis, and remove some of the symbolic material from Coat of arms of WA. Thanks, Thungarra 11:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Page moves...
Thanks for fixing up the page moves. However, there is also this page: Muhammad's attitude toward animals. It's a real mess of redirects, but in the history of one of them you will see an article with a long edit history and a discussion page. I think it is the one I've linked to here. msybe this is not important but there is a bit of edit history and discussion where I've tried to remove pics that have been sneakly used to illicit emotional responses. Ie, pics of cute labradors and geckos that "Muhammad says are evil". thanks again Merbabu 13:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, many thanks. I will just paste that bit from the talk page into the 'new' talk page. cheers. --Merbabu 13:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Could you please help?
124.168.114.121  SatuSuro 13:34, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Books
They're not that puffy. I'll take a better look when I get home; work to do and all that. --Peta 01:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm going to go over and get the Flora of Australia at lunch; I know thats where I sourced the original list of floras in the article. It gives a numerical comparison and some other details which I'll use to flesh them out a bit more. I also started an article on Roger Hnatiuk; I think he did a heap of work on the WA flora before coming to Canberra, so he might be of interest for you.-Peta 01:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Flora Australiensis is looking meaty enough for a DYK if you want to make a suggestion. --Peta 03:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

On an unrelated note; I have manged to get extinct plant lists from Tasmania and New South Wales; waiting on the other states. Rrequesting them from the Territories is not a simple matter, the ACTs "contact us" is broken and the NT only have a snail mail contact. --Peta 01:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Image uploads
Check out Stirling Range category for my new uploads, commonist is currently running and populating this cat with 20 odd images Gnangarra 02:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I be back on tonight to tidy up descriptions etc but please add any information particularly plant id's Gnangarra 03:01, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Muhammad Rais
Talk page I reverted a troll bait for merbabu - could you check it please? Please revert my revert if I was wrong - thanks SatuSuro 03:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

OMG!! Banksia integrifolia extinct?!
Yeah I knew about that - probably been not there since 19th cent. sometime and even then I think there was some doubt over the record....:) cheers, Casliber | talk  |  contribs 07:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Starting a Project
What do you think about me starting a wikiproject on the Public Schools Association? to better organise articles relating to the schools within the organisation? For this to work, what kind of supporter base would be required, because ive noted that there is a WP:Red Hot Chilli Peppers one, and i think it would make it easier for other PSA-school users to work together on related issues? Some thoughts.... many thanks Twenty Years 11:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think your idea absolutely rocks! all i need is to make a link from the talk pages to this page... somehow? some sort of box? would that be like appropriate? Twenty Years 12:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

MiniProject PSA
Hello, you have been invited to join the Public Schools Association (PSA) MiniProject. More information on the project can be found at its homepage - User:Twenty Years/PSA. We would love to have you on board, thanks for your time Twenty Years 14:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

User:BotanyBot/sandbox2
Peta has today moved List of extinct Australian plants to List of extinct flora of Australia, and merged List of extinct flora of Western Australia into it. I would have updated User:BotanyBot/sandbox2 but I don't know what that list is actually for, and I don't want to break your bot or step on your toes. I shall leave it in your capable hands. Hesperian 12:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks for the info. I suppose I should blank that page since I've already gone through it. I basically created a big list from several categories so that I could edit out the carnivorous plant pages and Banksia pages. Seem a lot easier than fighting with the regexes in AWB. --Rkitko (talk) 18:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

DYK: Parramatta Correctional Centre
Hi, I came here via User:Hesperian/Notes/Convicts... DYK Parramatta Correctional Centre was convict built mainly of sandstone and (although it has been mothballed a couple of times) is still in use? It was finished in 1842, but I don't know when it was started / how finished it was when it opened. Sorry, but I don't work on correctional centre articles. But your page mentions articles realting to convict-built works and this would definately qualify. Garrie 21:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

That's all right, as Chopper Reid would say you're further away than New Zealand so maybe you should just keep on going... god knows, your economy is doing stacks better than New South Wales' at the moment! I didn't look closely enough to work out it was all WA-related convict info, I just thought it worth mentioning.

I really hope 20Years can get his AC work beyond the point of being cruft, I think if he worked more on a few targeted quality articles, a lot of what he is trying to put together would be worthwhile. But when someone makes so many stubs, none of them mean anything - and a lot of them are just the same information with the names changed to protect the innocent... Garrie 03:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Your note
Ta - thanks for alerting me - have left my mark SatuSuro 05:04, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Surat Basin
My edit was tiny (+6) and involved swaping one word and capitalizing another, so I don't understand the error. I don't get any error when I go back to look at it. --Zamphuor 11:57, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Whoops, take that back. That was what I just did to Bowen Basin. What I did for Surat was put a space between 2 words in the photo caption (+1). Yes, I get the same error when checking the diff. --Zamphuor 12:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Hesperian, thanks for the follow up. Looks like a glitch that's happened before. I had another Wiki problem a few days ago. I did a very small edit to Impact crater, just tried to repair some broken internal links. But when I saved, I found I was credited with a minus of well over 1000 characters. When I checked the diff, it turned out to be a large systematic edit, both additions and subtractions, but overall a minus. As it was credited to me but I couldn't vouch for any of it, I reverted the lot and left an explanatory message on the talk page. There hasn't been any follow up. My guess is that someone else also did an edit and we hit save at the same time and the software got confused. Have you come across this before? --Zamphuor 14:44, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

cat

 * 23:13, 24 March 2007 (hist) (diff) m Gnangara Mound (down to Category:Biogeography of Western Australia)
 * I should have been looking up, not down. By the way, I meant to ask someone about 'moving' things off my user page. Feel free to grind them up and export them to become virtual paper. The drafts are in cleanup near the sketching club, thanks for the offer. Fred 12:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Fred.e/Wilgie_Mia, User:Fred.e/E. macrandra User:Fred.e/Gossipyium australe been and gone. User:Fred.e/Hesperocolletes douglasi Bee. User:Fred.e/Wilgie Mia The latest offering from the wilgie sketching club. Cheers Fred 12:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ta. Fred


 * Nice:I was looking for Landscope and I found this - Georgiana Molloy. Noticed your attention to it. Regards, Fred 13:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

auspol leader pictures
hi - thanks for the new info re usage of them, but i still dont quite understand how it works. it seems peacock is the latest victim. your continued help would be appreciated. Timeshift 01:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

My signature and your actions ~AFA
I thought about taking this to a dispute hearing, but I couldn't be fucked. So, I'm just going to outline here why I think that your blocking of my account was unjustified and against policy.

You stated when you blocked me, "anon. only, account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (personal attack in signature - will unblock on signature change". I disagree with your action on three levels. The first is that it was a personal attack, the second on the indefinite ban, and the third on any action at all.

Why it wasn't a personal attack
"The primary purpose of creating any block is to protect Wikipedia and its editors and users from harm." (From WP:BP). Of the list of reasons, on WP:BP the only one plausibly applicable is "Disruption". Under this it has

"A user may be blocked when his/her conduct severely disrupts the project — his/her conduct is inconsistent with a civil, collegial atmosphere and interferes with the process of editors working together harmoniously to create an encyclopedia."

And "Blocks for general incivility are controversial". In no way could any of my actions be considered "severely" disruptive. Or even simply disruptive. While it could be argued that my signature was generally uncivil (and I disagree, more later), blocking for this reason is controversial and should have been discussed first. So, from WP:BP there is no reason (in my opinion) to block. Now we examine WP:NPA. This is simply, "Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia" and I agree with it. The point here is "personal". My signature was not a personal attack on anyone. It was a generalised comment and an "in joke" (I can't help it if you are not in on the joke). For the "attack" to be personal, you would need to find someone who was "attacked", you would not be able to do this.

So, my signature did not constitute an attack on anyone, it did not disrupt discussion or affect the quality of my edits, thus it should not be a factor in anything.

As to general incivility, I simply disagree. From WP:CIVIL, "Whereas incivility is roughly defined as personally targeted behavior that causes an atmosphere of greater conflict and stress". My signature was not "personally targeted behavior" (as explained above), and I also fail to see how it could cause an atmosphere of "conflict" or "stress". There is nothing in this policy which is applicable in this case.

Why I should not have been blocked
In blocking me indefinitely, you violated WP:BP which states,

"Established users with significant constructive edits should not be indefinitely blocked except when there is a community ban. In all other cases, they should be handled with appropriate time-limited blocks or arbitration. Indefinite blocks should not usually be placed on IP users (whether individual IPs or IP ranges) in order to avoid inadvertently blocking legitimate users."

In blocking me at all, I also feel that you violated WP:BP. You did not have a clear reason to block me, and you did so indefinitely. In these cases, you should have posted at WP:ANI asking for advice and/or detailing why you felt that the block was needed.

What could have happened
So, what could you have done? Well, the simplest thing would have to post on my talk page a comment asking me to change my signature and pointing to the policy which it violated (see the previous case for an example). If you had have done this (and I had agreed with your argument) then I would have simply changed my signature. If I had failed to change my signature, then you could have discussed it with me more, and/or taken it to a hearing.

Conclusion
As I said at the beginning, I didn't want to take this to a hearing. However, I feel that I would be perfectly within my rights to do so, and I reserve the right to do so. This, by the way, is simply a statement.

What would I like you to do? Well, an apology would be nice, perhaps something worded along the lines of "I'm sorry for not talking to you first, not checking policy and for violating policy by indefinitely blocking you".

If you are unable to give an apology (for whatever reason, say you believe that you were in the right and still are), then I would appreciate a comment regardless.

A comment on my userpage would be noticed faster, but here would be fine as well.

Postscripts
PS This is the first time I've encountered you, but I notice that you objected to my comments at the Talk:Tasmania page. I admit that I probably shouldn't have posted that stuff there, and I won't do such a thing again (now that it has been pointed out to me). PSS For all those who wonder what my signature was when I was blocked, it was "~AFA (Fuck you!)"

~AFA (Fine!) 02:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Botany cats
I think your scheme looks good. I have a kind of related query - what should we do with people, who aren't technically botanists but contributed to description of the flora in some way, collectors and so on, Georgiana Molloy springs to mind - I usually drop them in naturalists - but thats not really correct either. I think I may have mentioned to you before that the second edition of Vol.1 of the Flora of Australia has a large annotated list of people that contributed to describing the flora. I think a catgeory for these type of people would be really useful since there are a lot of non-botanists that contributed to the flora, but I don't know what to call it. --Peta 03:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Slight tangent; do you think we could use a specific category for botanical illustrators? --Peta 03:29, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the collectors cat has merit; considering there were a lot of people gathering plants and sending them back to Europe prior to the 20th century. I'll probably create it (unless you beat me to it) when I start writing some more articles for collectors. Could published taxa serve as the distinction between botanists and collectors; Wikipedia already categorizes anyone with published taxa as a botanist? As for botanists who worked on Aus. plants but never came here - maybe they could just be added to Botany in Australia? You're right, a botanical illustrator cat isn't really necessary yet. --Peta 04:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Entrenched in Volume 1 - some important contributors to WA botany for you to think about
 * Alexander Morrison (botanist) - the first botanist to the Bureau of Agriculture
 * Frederick Stoward - Morrison's successor
 * Desmond Andrew Herbert - Stoward's sucessor
 * Robert Royce - Herbarium director after Gardner
 * John Green (botanist) - as above
 * Bruce Maslin - another one
 * Jim Armstrong (botanist) - another one
 * Neville Marchant - one more
 * B. J. Grieve - collector of vascular plants and fungi
 * --Peta 08:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The cats look good; now to write some more collector articles.... --Peta 05:42, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I just checked the ADB; they have 12 botanists active in WA. Might also be useful --Peta 06:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Canning River, Western Australia
Hi Hesp I added some pictures of the current bloom of Kalodinium micrum near the Kent st weir. I'm also adding some information about the bloom. Gnangarra 10:48, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah ok I'll have to change details. Based my ID on this http://portal.environment.wa.gov.au/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/ADMIN_SRT_MEDIA/MEDIA_REPOSITORY/ALGAL%20UPDATE.PDF as the photos were taken in the area specifically identified Gnangarra 11:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that I've fixed up the article and found more info from the SRT, would appreciate your thoughts Gnangarra 04:20, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah it good to be able to get more information, I've had to upload new versions of all the images with better names. Gnangarra 06:36, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

PSA Books/Papers
Hey, i was wondering if you could help out on the project page - i am creating a section on information regarding the PSA and its school - including all books/research papers about them - i have scowered all the talk pages etc, and found some of them - i was just wondering if you knew of any others that could be added to the list here - many thanks, Twenty Years 12:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Darling Scarp
Hi Hesperian, Gnangarra suggested I run this past you; see Talk:Darling Scarp. Basically my problem is that Darling Range seems to be the official gazetteered name, and also used on all maps I can find. Can't find an official source for the name Darling Scarp as yet, though in my experience it does appear to be in fairly common usage, but it would seem a logical name only for the geographically distinct western edge of the range. Anyway, I was suggesting there might be scope for separate cross referenced articles. BTW I'm a geologist, but naming of topographic and cultural land divisions is out of my jurisdiction. --Zamphuor 15:25, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah general darling has a lot to answer for - I always liked the possibility of the two greenmounts in some early letters/diaries/maps - toodyay greenmount (now redhill) and york greenmount(greenmount) - oh you have a gmail too SatuSuro 01:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe the front face was meant to be called Greenmount and the whole was to be darling range Gnangarra 01:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Mess
Hi, I don't have much time for WP this week. Could I ask you to follow up on the contributions of User:Nttc? They are a Northern Territory tourism rep; and have "donated" images with the correct permissions to the commons. They are adding large chunks of text about NT national parks, that appear on the Australian dept of environment pages. I'm not convinced that they are in a position to be adding this material to WP - since if they provided text to the feds, the feds probably own the copyright. I'd appreciate it if you could follow up on this and get them to show that they actually own copyright on the material and get the correct permissions. Sorry for the imposition and thanks. --Peta 06:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Amphibious cat
The amphib will save the day if I'm challenged on it. The TECs are slowly comming along. You thoughts or edits are always welcome, perhaps on a section structure. Mound springs is probably getting closest, but I started Eastern Stirling Range Montane Heath and Thicket to have a rest from creepy fauna. Lots of blue links too, thanks to you and others. Regards Fred 06:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice one. Useful things things those books, they could around for a while yet. I had better start adding the biota tag to my recents articles. But does it need another cat? - Fred 11:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Would that be verging on WP:NOR? Fred 12:37, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Does your reference for the non-frog amphib give further references. My article differs in a few facts - bunyips aside. You may have to give the cats a once over. Cheers, Fred 14:23, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It was around 1.2 m long and its skull was 240 mm long - apparently. It is slithering across my user page. Fred 00:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * ''The above text is preserved as an archive of discussions at User talk:Hesperian. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on User talk:Hesperian. No further edits should be made to this page.