User talk:Horologium/January 2011

I have a problem
Horologium, I need some advice on the proper place and procedures for filing a complaint against an administrator for violation of WP procedures and bad-faith deletion of files. Please see the discussion at User:Zscout370's talk page and File talk:Florida Gators logo.svg. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:08, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

FWIW, a look at Zscout's contributions indicates that he has been busy doing this with a number of other teams, (South Carolina, Michigan State, UMass, FAU, et al), so there is a pattern here. I'm not sure if the logo he substituted for UF is so bad, though. It appears on the helmets of the UF football team, and moreover, is a free-use logo (since letters cannot be copyrighted, unlike the gatorhead logo). I'm going to be quite busy over the next few days (new terms start tomorrow), so I won't be able to participate (much) in the discussion until the weekend at the earliest. I'll try to check in at his talk page (and DRV and AN/I if the issue shows up there).  Horologium  (talk) 15:36, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, you've already done the first part, by taking the issue to his page and asking him to discuss it. Give him time to respond before going any further. The next issue is to go to DRV. As I am not an administrator at commons, I cannot see the logs over there to verify, but it appears that your issue is that ZScout370 deleted all of the fair-use rationales, removed the images and deleted the file as unused. If true, you should bring up the issue at AN/I, but anything dealing with the Commons is a tricky issue, because en.wp doesn't determine policy over at commons.


 * Thanks, Horologium. I've actually been expecting this for a while.  The copyright, ahem, police actually keep a target list of non-free fair-use images that they use as a target list, seeking evolving rationales to delete when they can what they perceive to be over-used non-free images.  Here's the list: Database reports/Overused non-free files.  Thanks to some good wikilawyering a year ago, we beat off the last attempt to delete the Gator head logo.  That simply involved updating all of the fair use rationales on the file page, but the deletionists don't explain such things.  We had to figure them out for ourselves.   In this instance, the administrator appears to have failed to follow any of the applicable image deletion procedures, and boot-strapped an F5 reason ("unused non-free media") after deleting all of the uses himself.  Apart from the self-serving abuse of the process and his failure to place a notice template on the file page or the uploader's talk page, he also violated the 7-day wait requirement built into F5 to prevent such abuse.  Nice, huh?  We can't even rely on the WP copyright police to work within their own rules.


 * As for the use of graphic logos vs. letters-only logos, no, letters-only logos cannot be copyrighted, but they can and usually are trademarked (think script "Coca-Cola" logo). I'm not an intellectual property lawyer, but I have several former law school classmates who are big-time IP attorneys with national practices (one does most of his work for Microsoft).  They look at this distinction between the non-free use of copyrights and trademarks on Wikipedia as misguided at best, and completely idiotic at worst.  But what do they know?  They're only actual practicing IP attorneys with 20+ years of national practice.


 * As for the particulars of the Gators script logo, it is not even used by 20 of 21 Florida Gators sports teams. The only team that uses it is the football team, and then only on the team helmets. The Gator head logo is the primary logo for the football team, and it's the only common logo for the other 20 teams.  I would have laughed out loud at Zscout's edit summary "as a member of the SEC, I know this is right out," if only I wasn't so damn angry.  A year ago, the copyright police deleted all of the old UF logos from the football season pages and we let it go.  (Ironically, most of those were letters-only trademarks.)  Now, they've come back for a second bite at the apple.  Well, fine, at least we can hold them to the express requirements of their own rules.  16:28, 4 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Horologium, please feel free to join the conversation over at Zscout's talk page when you have time. The Gator head logo SVG file has now been restored, and there is a perfectly civil, if somewhat one-sided conversation on-going.  Zscout would like to see 2 or 3 fair uses of the logo; I think that magic number is more like 16.  Part of our negotiating strength is that only the Gators football team uses the script Gators logo.  The other part of their problem is that they have no defined number for "too many uses."  The closer they can get to zero fair use instances of any copyrighted logo, the happier they are.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:30, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, and thanks
Re Miami's metro population, I saw my error too late. Thanks for correcting me, and my apologies for being hasty.Mason.Jones (talk) 00:12, 18 January 2011 (UTC)


 * It's okay; I've done similar things myself. (Although I usually self-revert.) However, you should be aware that Wikipedia itself should not be used as a reference. Identifying reliable sources most succinctly states it: Wikipedia contains no systematic mechanism for fact checking or accuracy. Thus Wikipedia articles (or Wikipedia mirrors) are not reliable sources for any purpose. Because Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, there's no telling what might show up on a page at any given moment.  Horologium  (talk) 00:27, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I know Wikipedia is no reference, but it's still too bad city and state populations are in such terrible shape; figures don't match the ones in related Wiki articles, and some unidentified "boosters" inflate populations for their own city/state. A big problem.Mason.Jones (talk) 00:43, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Palin, January
Thank you for your contributions to the encyclopedia! In case you are not already aware, an article to which you have recently contributed, Sarah Palin, is on article probation. A detailed description of the terms of article probation may be found at Talk:Sarah Palin/Article probation. Also note that the terms of some article probations extend to related articles and their associated talk pages. ''The above is a templated message. Please accept it as a routine friendly notice, not as a claim that there is any problem with your edits. Thank you.'' -- Userpd (talk) 14:02, 28 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you, but I have already edited the article probation page (when I added to the list of notified users in December). As per the instructions on that page, I am considered to be notified as a consequence. I won't drop the template on your page, because you are (by the same process) aware of the probation. Be mindful of that.  Horologium  (talk) 14:28, 28 January 2011 (UTC)