User talk:Horologium/June 2007

Fort Lauderdale, Florida
You are absolutely correct. My apologies -- Kimon talk 22:03, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Abraham Lincoin
Doesn't matter much, as long as vandalism is gone, I don't mind. Anyway, good work on your efforts. Besides, I wasn't actually watching the page, just killing obvious vandalism through recent changes. -- Warfreak 05:28, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Just report him if he continues. Anyway, good work and good luck in the future. -- Warfreak 05:30, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

List of City Nicknames in the United States
I am aware that the list was cluttered by the fact tag additions; that was the point. Putting all those tags on might convince a few people to actually go through and REFERENCE the stuff already there, and might cause one or two people who would otherwise throw something up to look for a cite. The list is a nice concept, but it's been smothered in slobber. I'll wait a week and strip out every single unreferenced claim on that page. That tag at the top isn't worth the pixels with which it is displayed. Horologium t-c 03:08, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Whether it's the "not verified" tag on top or hundreds of "fact" tags carefully placed one-by-one, few people are going to be convinced to source these items. Since an AfD was created for the article in late March 2007, over 260 separate REFERENCEs, supporting close to 700 nicknames, have been added to the List of city nicknames in the United States article, a significant improvement beyond the two sources in the article as it existed when the AfD was created. This article very likely contain the greatest number of sourced statements in any Wikipedia article. You are more than welcome to assist in the effort to add sources and remove incorrect material (though it would be helpful if you didn't remove valid -- but yet unsourced -- nicknames, such as "First Coast" for Jacksonville, Florida; I try to research these names before removing them). While I appreciate your zeal in identifying unsourced material, there is a rather thorough process underway to add the sources and remove the unverified information that concerns you. I would hope that you recognize that applying fact tags and threatening to remove material isn't worth the pixels used to make the slobber-smothered threat. Alansohn 03:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * (Response on User talk:Alansohn.) -Horologium


 * I really am trying to make as much of a dent in this article as I can, and much progress has been made. I try to check up on changes made via my watchlist, sourcing -- or deleting -- new additions, and then adding a few additional sources, while I'm at it. The effort is genuine, as is the offer to chip in to the effort as much as you can. Keep an eye on the article, and I can assure you that you will see it getting better over time. Alansohn 03:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Transient condition
I'd just like to make a point, regarding a comment you made on a UCfD discussion (on Category:Pregnant Wikipedians). Just because a category has transient members doesn't automatically make it not useful (although I think I agree that it doesn't really serve any collaborative project); else everything in Category:Wikipedian students is also useless. Just some food for thought. (: Bl a st  [ improve me ] 16.06.07 2355 (UTC)

DeBabelization
I have a question for you relating to several of the Language cats I have nominated for deletion, which also ties in to another cat that was closed earlier this week with "no consensus". Would it be possible to move the "Newspeak" and "Internet slang" cats out of Category:Wikipedians by language category, to keep that category for actual ISO 639-categorized languages? I'd like to do the same with Category:Wikipedians who would like to learn more languages, which doesn't really advance the language portion of the project and is being created from the merge of several former language cats. There is a lot of clutter and chaff in the language category, and I'd like to do what I can to tidy it up. Horologium t-c 19:38, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree to a point. I think that the best solution would be to create: Category:Wikipedians by language interest (since some of the cats wouldn't be about linguistics). The subcats should probably have a naming convention based on learning or understanding. "This user understands x" (such as the greek alphabet, heiroglyphics, or whatever) or "This user would like to learn x" (such as more languages, how to write chinese glyphs, ancient phoenecian script, etc)


 * This would become the new home for all the "alphabet" categories and "script" categories (which should be de-babelised and renamed), as well as other language-related categories (including the linguisitic one noted above.)


 * I don't suggest that we create Category:Wikipedians interested in language, because we'd end up with a rather useless category with a broadly sprawling membership.


 * I "hope" I answered all your questions? - jc37 12:46, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Is this something that could fall under the purview of WP:BOLD? It's easy enough to create the new category, but I have no idea how to move categories (I've not been involved in any category merges/migrations), and since both of the categories in question are candidates for outright deletion (judging by the developing consensus), it might be a good idea to create an appropriate category quickly and move them over. My primary objection to them is where they were located, although I do question their usefulness as cats, instead of userboxen. Moving them out of the language cat into a new cat would satisfy me, enough to withdraw the nomination on newspeak and retract my !vote on internet slang.


 * A remaining question is where this new category would be located in the user cats hierarchy, and how it would relate to the existing linguistics category. Are you proposing creating a new category alongside it in Category:Wikipedians by interest, and migrating the linguistics category content into the new cat, along with the orthography cats and jargon/slang related cats? Or would this new cat be located someplace else?


 * Out of curiosity (while we are on the subject), is there anywhere big reshuffling can be discussed by the community? Obviously, CfD is not the appropriate venue, but I am not very familiar with much of the community side of WP yet. I'm still learning, so please bear with me and my many questions. (grin) Horologium t-c 16:32, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * In response, I went ahead and created several such categories, and made them sub-cats of Category:Wikipedians by language. Please feel free to go through the category and sub-cats.


 * A few places to discuss categories: Relevant WikiProject talk pages, WT:CFD, WT:UCFD, and the Village Pump.


 * And please, feel free to ask questions. : ) - jc37 03:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) gahh, that was what I was trying to prevent. I am trying to move the non-ISO language stuff OUT of language, and into one of the other Category:Wikipedians subcats. What I'd like to see is everything in Category:Language to be something with an ISO classification, rather than the random dumping ground that currently exists. The new cat is a bit better than mixing all of the non-recognized languages in with the real ones, but it still doesn't accomplish the task of thinning out the dross that currently exists, as people will simply start creating more junk in the new subcat, leading to more suggestions to nuke the whole thing (as happened over the weekend). If it is pared down to professionally-recognized languages, it is that much less likely to attract the attention of the Wikipedia category-killers. Horologium t-c 03:46, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * If the goal is ISO, then maybe that should be inherent in the category name? (As well as non-ISO, for that matter.) I'm not really happy about the constructed language cat, anyway, since it's not entirely accurate, and may be problematic (Cyrillic comes to mind). - jc37 11:06, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks
Suffering a bit with those tables (in Coral Springs.Legionarius 22:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I took care of it. Horologium t-c 22:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Template:South Florida metropolitan area
Hi. In response to your recent message, I looked at this template using three different Windows browsers (Internet Explorer, Firefox, Opera) but could not replicate the problem you had with it not displaying properly when collapsed. If that problem continues to appear, please feel free to revert my edits. -- Zyxw 09:43, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

William Cooley
I will be taking care of this - I got some sources and wills tart working on it tomorrow.--Legionarius 03:59, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Cool. If you take care of that, I'll concentrate on Agogo, Ghana. Still need someone to work up an article on Jim Naugle, which (in theory) should not be too hard; he's been the mayor for 10 years. There has to be some information SOMEWHERE on him, but it's not showing up in Google. With a little luck, Fort Lauderdale will be ready for a re-assessment as well. I'd love to get two good articles in a week. Horologium t-c 04:14, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Work in progress.--Legionarius 01:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, Thanks. But please don't bother today, tomorrow morning the "somewhat final version" will be up. I am still fighting with the million references. Feel free to look, though :-)Legionarius 04:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, I think it is "done" now. The main facts are referenced, and I solved the discrepancies between some of the articles and the original census documents. The article is mostly based in the (somewhat bigot) articles from Cooper Kirk, and I think I managed to bring down the tone a lot. The article stops in 1837, and I filled up the blanks using other primary documents and the knetsch articles. I do not have extra facts to add; I tried to keep the article focused on Cooley and go around the minimum possible. If you would be so kind to copyedit, I will add the Wikilinks and I have like 10 pictures to add to the article(mostly documents) and I have to build a map showing where he lived. No pictures of him though. Oh, and if you have a good idea for a lead paragraph.... :-) Thanks!Legionarius 05:17, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I decide to publish it so you can be credited correctly.William Cooley--Legionarius 15:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Gah. I had just finished a copy-edit when you nuked the sandbox. It looks like all my work vanished. Horologium t-c 16:09, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Holy cow. But the Sandbox is still there, I did not kill it. Glad you got the stuff back. Look, looks like this Cooley Hammac is NOT Cooley Hammock, it is something else, according to the article. I think the best is to remove the reference, since the author probably got confused. Legionarius 16:35, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, now I swear I will let you work. Please let me know when you are done, so I can add the pictures.--Legionarius 16:47, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I did a google search and came up empty with "Cooley Hammac" (Google suugested "Cooley Hammock", which is in Fort Lauderdale.) Without the quotes, there were too many refs. I tried Cooley Hammac Florida, and almost every hit was linked to lists of people whose last name was Hammac. There was one misspelling of "hammock" in a journal entry about a trip to Key West, but that was it. If there ever was a geographical location known as Cooley Hammac, it's been dead and buried at least as long as William Cooley himself.


 * Go ahead and do your thing, I'll wait until tonight to continue copy-editing. Horologium t-c 16:54, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I guess I am done now. The only thing that I would like to have, but cannot get, is a photo of Cooley's Store in Tampa.Legionarius 00:42, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * This article is astonishing. When you said you'd write something, I was expecting a stub or a very brief article, with (maybe) one or two references. This is a full article, and with a bit of copy-editing, it might qualify as a "B" class article, with the potential for a good article. I'll do some copy-editing and polishing on it later tonight, give it some categories and add it to a couple of appropriate WikiProjects, and submit it for a peer review. Great job! Horologium t-c 00:48, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Those are very kind words. Glad you liked it! Actually, it was a great ride :-) I corrected some stuff from the articles based on the primary sources. I sent a message to the Harvard people to see if we can get the proof that Cooley had a store there; hopefully something will come up. Couldn't find a pic of him anywhere, though. I did not add any categories to keep the "traffic low" while you do not finish copy editing. I guess all the wikilinking/sourcing is done, and if anybody disputes I have the sources. Please let me know if you need anything else. Legionarius 01:39, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Excellent. Thanks for your help, the article is reading great now! I readded the comments about the election, referenced; I just think that is interesting to show he may have favored his friend Fitzpatrick as a quid pro quo situation. Your take? Legionarius 04:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * My problem with that is where it is in the article. The first part of the paragraph discusses the sale of his Miami property, and then jumps to allegations of ballot box stuffing. I'll need to rewrite that paragraph because it's not logically organized like that. BTW, I have submitted the article for a peer review by WikiProject Florida. Horologium t-c 04:30, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I see your point. Chronologically, it was just after the sale, but the paragraph does not make it clear. Please feel free to move or even remove. Legionarius 04:34, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * oops. I reversed the chronology in my rewrite; I'll fix that. Horologium t-c 04:37, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The article was nominated to be a DYK in the main page. Good catch about Frankee :-)--Legionarius 17:31, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Congrats on the DYK nom. I corrected a word in the lede, and updated it in the nomination. ("evacuation" -> "abandonment") Horologium t-c 17:40, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations to us both. Would you be willing work on an eventual nomination to WP:GA? I know you have your hands full.--Legionarius 19:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I just did the copy-editing; you did most of the heavy lifting. :) Yeah, I can work with you to get the article to FA status, but I want to finish with Coral Springs, Florida and Fort Lauderdale, Florida first. Coral Springs just needs a little on that lede, and Fort Lauderdale needs some cleanup and pruning. Let's give Cooley a chance to catch his breath before we run him through the GA gantlet. I'd like to let the article go through the DYK thing before we look at a GA. I am also hoping that we will get a response from the WikiProject Florida guys, as I have asked for a peer review of the article on the project page. Let them give us a few suggestions to start with. Horologium t-c 20:04, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Dang. I saw this just now, before I asked about moving up with the article. Thanks a lot, and I wait for your lead. I am just trying to keep myself busy :-)--Legionarius 20:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Cheers!--Legionarius 17:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Coral Springs Information
I got this from the CS office today. I am updating the article with that. I guessed the motto was not the official motto, but that's all we had... :-)

Thank you for taking the time to contact us to update the Wikipedia article. I'm responding on behalf of Kevin Knutson. Our mission statement is "to be the nation's premier community in which to live, work and raise a family." The "City in the Country" was actually a marketing tool used by Coral Ridge Properties in the 60s and 70s, it's not our City motto. Attached are the images you requested. We call it a seal, rather than a shield/coat of arms. Also attached is our official logo, which is a suntree. This logo appears in most of our publications, signs, buses and soon, on the bus stops. There is no City flag, we use the state flag. --Legionarius 15:41, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, that is interesting. I knew that Coral Ridge Properties had used the slogan first, but I didn't realize it was theirs alone. I do remember CRP switching their advertisements to "If it has everything, it could only be Coral Springs" in the early 1980's, but I thought "The City in the Country" was the city motto. That does explain why it doesn't appear anywhere on the site outside of the history section. Go ahead and remove it from the infobox and add in the new logo. Please, don't add the "mission statement". Horologium t-c 15:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * too late :-) I guess the best is leaving them "motto-less". I asked specifically for the motto, though.Legionarius 16:03, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you must have been updating while I was typing, because you had updated by the time I got to the page. :\ I am guessing that the mission statement is the closest thing they had. Sometimes, it's better to leave things out. Horologium t-c 16:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Btw, Royal Plastics Group is called Royal Group Technologies now. I saw that you changes it to match the CS site page, just wanted to let you know.Legionarius 16:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I hope I understood that thing with the dashes.--Legionarius 17:18, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Coral Springs, Florida GA review
The review has been placed on hold. Thanks. Epbr123 10:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Coral Springs, Florida GA assessment
I have begun to address the issues you cited in your assessment, but I do have a quibble with the last one. You suggest converting the list of famous natives to prose form. Can you give me an example of where this has been done? I took a look at about 10 cities in the list of good articles (all North American) and noted that most of had an external list (usually linked in "See Also", or had a list similar to what is in place here. I'd prefer not to eliminate the list entirely, but with only eight names, a separate list would not survive an AfD (it would likely get merged back into the article). None of them had a listing in prose form as you have suggested. I know that prose is generally preferred over lists, but there are times when a list is appropriate, and this might be one of those times. Examples of GA cities with similar lists in the main article include Chambersburg, Pennsylvania, Duluth, Minnesota, Grand Forks, North Dakota and Newark, New Jersey, (which should really be turned into an external list). Any thoughts on this? Horologium t-c 14:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Whenever possible, lists should be made into prose. These are some GA and FA city articles which show that it is possible to do with famous natives sections: Herne Bay, Kent, Sale, Greater Manchester, Westgate-on-Sea, Runcorn, Widnes, Peterborough. Epbr123 15:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Coral Springs, FL A Assessment
I was working on extending the reach of the article to ask for a reassessment, trying to get an A mark. I expanded Economy, Education and Media. Other thinks that can be added are concentrated in culture:


 * public artworks
 * cinemas
 * festivals - there is not much to say besides making a list. Verifiability for any claims is very low here.

Honestly I think they are on the lowest side of notable and would be more fluff than content, bloating the article and not giving it muscle. Please let me know how happy you are with the article, maybe we can move up.--Legionarius 06:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the section about the Forum in the media section is overkill; as I have stated before, it's a decent, but ultimately non-notable local weekly. The media section is a bit light, but there are seealso links to two lists, and for a suburban city with no in-town media presence (no radio or TV stations, no notable print media), it should be sufficient for an "A" grade.


 * When you are done, I'll go ahead and copy-edit your changes (I see a few areas I want to reword, particularly in the economy adds), but IMO, the area that needs the most work is the history section. There is a good deal of information about the founding of the city, but rather short shrift is given to the 1970-2000 time frame. Considering that the city added over 115,000 residents during that period, I think a little more data is needed in that section. The lede is still somewhat brief, too; I tend to have trouble summarizing my thoughts (as my comments here and elsewhere should make obvious).


 * I agree that movie theaters are fluff (the city has never had a "grand movie house" of the type I believe Epbr123 was imagining when he did his review), but the public art project might be worth a mention in the culture section. Publicly-funded art projects are common in large cities or artist communities, but only recently have they started in suburban cities.


 * As to festivals, there is not much to note except "Our Town" which is an annual event that has been been held since 1979. You should be able to find some relevant information somewhere, as I believe the Sun Sentinel and the Miami Herald have covered it in the past.


 * Right now, I am concentrating on my sandbox project, as I believe it is an integral part of getting the Fort Lauderdale article up to GA status. I'd like to work on getting more articles to GA status first; once I have a couple of those under my belt, then I'll look towards pushing articles up to "A" or "FA" status. Horologium t-c 15:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Okie dokie, I will wait for you so. Please feel free to copyedit. I think the FTL article is a bit too big for me to chew right now :-/. If you drop a couple leads on the history of FTL article I may be able to expand.

The main probable with CS history is that there never been any crises, killings, major problems, and this is the kind of stuff that history sections are made of. I will try to think of something. I expanded the Economy based on other FAs, even if I personally do not like to read this kind of information in the article. Looks clear that CS is in one of the Wikipedia corners, so not many people is going to update it. --Legionarius 16:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks per Cooley. I just got a mail from the Broward historian saying that they do not have any picture of him. I added all I could to Coral Springs, if you want to copy edit. ABout the newspaper, I don't know, I do not think it hurts the article. It is hard to have anything too "great" in a city so young (in present times, not a frontier town). After that, I will ask some opinions around, so I stop bothering you :-)--Legionarius 18:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank for the beautiful copy-editing on the article. Btw, I just sent you a mail, please let me know if you got it.--Legionarius 20:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Ft Lauderdale, Actors/Musicians and Sports people
Hey Bud, I went through the list on the page of the abovementions catagories and I did some extensive searches to find mention of these individuals living or having lived in the Lauderdale area. If they did not have mention in their articles I removed them and if it was not mentioned in other biographical materials I removed them. I know it's only a small gesture seeing how many have remained, but it is a small start. I think we should really do a subpage that reflects these individuals. I really see no significance keeping them on the main page. Ideas? Junebug52 21:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I am working on a subpage for the museums, in an effort to thin out the "sites of interest" section. I am also beginning work an a comprehensive history section to replace the weak section currently in place. If we can get Coral Springs, Florida to Good Article status (as we did), there is no reason that we can't do the same for Fort Lauderdale. However, I can tell you that that whole section is going to need to be turned into an external page listed under "see also"; the GA reviewers gave me grief over the (much shorter) list on the Coral Springs page; I eventually pruned it and merged the six remaining names into the sports and cultural sections. There are too many here to merge, however, but I think a list will fly. Horologium t-c 21:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I do not know exactly where to jump in, since there are so many changes going around. Suggestions?--Legionarius 22:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this article is a little busier than Coral Springs, isn't it? (grin) You seem to have a serious talent for digging to find sources on missing or neglected articles. Do you want to tackle Jim Naugle, the mayor? He is the last redlink on this page (since you took care of William Cooley in a big way, and I cobbled together a stub on Agogo, Ghana). While having no redlinks is not a criterion for having an article listed as a Good Article, it signals to the reviewers that the article is a little more thoroughly sourced and researched. Coral Springs has over 45 separate sources, while this one has only 10. However, this article also has a bunch of sublists, which were missing (and not really needed) for Coral Springs. I am getting ready to move the "notable residents" thing to a separate subpage, now that Junebug52 has cleaned out the junk. I have already said that I will work on the history section (although I am a bit verklempt at the scope of the task); if you could work on Naugle, I'd be very happy. Horologium t-c 23:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Jim Naugle, here I go.--Legionarius 23:06, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that it will no longer be speedyable if gets expanded. But not being psychic, I can't assume that an article will be expanded, nor can I base an assessment of an article on what's going to be there.  Don't worry, I'll keep it on mty watchlist and if it gets improved I'll remove the speedy tag myself if someone doesn't beat me to it.  -- Finngall  talk  23:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Take a look at the editor's contributions; of the few articles he has worked on, one is now "GA" class (primarily due to his contributions) and one is "B" class (he created the article, which is likely to get nominated for GA status soon, with is pretty impressive for an article that was created three days ago). I've already left a note on his page letting him know about using preview instead of incremental saves, but a one-minute lag time is a bit silly. The problem with leaving the tag in place is that it is likely to get nuked by an admin without checking the status. Please reconsider your decision to leave the speedy tag in place. Horologium t-c 23:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Long articles on the Good Article criteria
The criteria state that Good Article candidates should be marked as long if the main text is greater than around 32k. Note that the Mario Andretti article has approximately 20k of main text (according to Microsoft Word), and extensive table markup (especially from WikiProject Formula One's lengthy table). I think your attributing the long tag to the article is misleading. Royal broil 02:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * (responded on user's talk page). Horologium t-c 03:10, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Crater Lake
Hi, I fixed the parts you pointed out to me. How does it look now? --Hdt83 Chat 00:07, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It's good. I fixed a few last items (Mt.->Mount—you missed one; some flabby prose in one of the paragraphs, and several accessdates that were for late July 2007. Someone must think that June is the seventh month...once I corrected those, I promoted it. Horologium t-c 00:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC)